Do Super Saiyan Multipliers Matter

[Saturnine]

Of course, it can be argued that Perfect Cell wasn't using his full power for sure. The point is I'm trying to take the numbers I've been given from official guidebooks and make sense of it.

Yeah, but if the official guidebooks don't make sense, you don't try to make sense out of them. You dismiss them.

Also, that Perfect Cell wasn't using his full power against Grade 3 Trunks is not a matter of arguing, it's shown outright and confirmed with statements. That's the problem with transformations in powerlevel - many readers and viewers have come to adopt a mindset of one form = one powerlevel, forgetting that before transformations became a thing, modifying one's powerlevel while in the same form was routine and ubiquitous.

Observations are subjective and open to interpretation. We know for a fact that the statement of Trunks surpassing Perfect Cell's power was stated in the manga and in the guidebook. We know that Perfect Cell, when losing to Gohan, also transformed similarly into it.

And Perfect Cell lost horribly to Gohan, because even despite this bulky transformation he was still weaker.

In DBS, when Trunks and Vegeta were sparring, Trunks again used the form as a bait to lure Vegeta. Why would he even bother using this form when he has SSJ2? I realize you don't want to buy 10x because you think it's too large, but the power increase should be greater than SSJ2 just from this observation.

Grade 3's power being greater than SSj2's from this observation is just your interpretation of this observation, in other words you're making assumptions. Wild ones at that. We were told that Trunks used that transformation as a ruse, a tactical decision. Vegeta himself even said it was a 3/10 move tops. Also, fanservice and nostalgia.

You feel that even if a person is very strong and can't hit their target, if they were 10x stronger, they themselves shouldn't feel anything if they were hit, similar to Broly.

It's not Broly that started this in Dragon Ball, and you don't need 10x for that to be valid. 2x or so should be plenty enough. Also, yes.

In this case, I'll have to disagree. No, it is not always true that the bigger the ki is, the bigger both power and speed are. In general, that's what we expect but it's not always true.

And I was talking about "in general". Was that not apparent?

Most of what said I agree with already except the part where you said Grade 4 incorporates Grade 2. The Grade 2 has slightly increased muscle mass. This should be clear from when Vegeta first transformed into it against Semi-Perfect Cell. Later, in the Cell Saga, he didn't use it and was shown to be a much slimmer design. Even now, in DBS and all the models of SSJ Vegeta we have seen, he has a slim design of SSJ. The Grade 4 eliminated the excess stamina drain from Grade 1 that newly transformed SSJs all have. That's it, it's not more powerful. It has the same multiplier. The Trunks anime book even states that Grade 1 has a slightly agitated state that Grade 4 removes.

I didn't mean "incorporate" like that, I meant it like "having all the power of grade 2 while fully powered up as SSj, while also losing the ability to go grade 2 because it's now achievable with a leaner body and less stamina drain"

Also, last but not least: if you're really arguing that Grade 3 being 10x stronger than SSj (FPSSj included) is a defensible position, it means Grade 3 is stronger than SSj3. I'm just throwing this out there

[shadowfox87]

Yeah, but if the official guidebooks don't make sense, you don't try to make sense out of them. You dismiss them.

Also, that Perfect Cell wasn't using his full power against Grade 3 Trunks is not a matter of arguing, it's shown outright and confirmed with statements. That's the problem with transformations in powerlevel - many readers and viewers have come to adopt a mindset of one form = one powerlevel, forgetting that before transformations became a thing, modifying one's powerlevel while in the same form was routine and ubiquitous.

I know and I even acknowledge it. I never disputed the fact that Perfect Cell was hiding his power. The question is how much? This is the subjective and interpretation part. If you could incorporate official source material from guidebooks and make sense of it, wouldn't you? It's easy to dismiss things but I try to use what I can. For example, I've dismissed random guides by Funimation, but this one is by Shueisha. It came out in 2007 with the SEG following it in 2009. It doesn't contradict what's stated in SEG.

Grade 3's power being greater than SSj2's from this observation is just your interpretation of this observation, in other words you're making assumptions. Wild ones at that. We were told that Trunks used that transformation as a ruse, a tactical decision. Vegeta himself even said it was a 3/10 move tops. Also, fanservice and nostalgia.

I think you're missing the point. The question is why would it even work as a ruse or tactical distraction if the form is weaker in power? Vegeta said 3/10 to rate that tactic. It had nothing to do with anything else. The point I'm making here is that SSJ Grade 3 > SSJ2 in terms of power only. If it wasn't, then there would've been no logical reason to use it, even as a ruse.

You feel that even if a person is very strong and can't hit their target, if they were 10x stronger, they themselves shouldn't feel anything if they were hit, similar to Broly.

It's not Broly that started this in Dragon Ball, and you don't need 10x for that to be valid. 2x or so should be plenty enough. Also, yes.

And I was talking about "in general". Was that not apparent?

No it's not apparent. You literally stated that both power and speed rise in proportion to the ki - a blanket statement without saying anything that implies generality like "usually" or "sometimes". I gave you an example of when ki rises and it doesn't cause an increase in speed as an example hence.

I didn't mean "incorporate" like that, I meant it like "having all the power of grade 2 while fully powered up as SSj, while also losing the ability to go grade 2 because it's now achievable with a leaner body and less stamina drain"

I still don't get what you're saying. If you mean "incorporate" as in Grade 4 has all the power of Grade 2 and the balance of Grade 1, then yea, that doesn't make sense. Grade 4 is Grade 1 but without the stamina drain. It has exactly the same speed and power. Grade 2 has slightly increased speed and power but some stamina drain. If it was incorporated, we would see the same physical changes in Grade 4 and it would be stated in the Trunks anime comic which is where the Grades were even given a name to begin with. The Grades don't have to have an accumulation effect. While the numbering convention implies that in order to get Grade 4, one must get Grade 2 and 3, but that's not true. These grades are essentially variations and are independent of one other. It's possible to get Grade 4 without ever having to reach Grade 2. Even SSJ2 was treated as Grade 5 but we saw that Caulifla jumped to it without having to do Grade 4 or 2.

Also, last but not least: if you're really arguing that Grade 3 being 10x stronger than SSj (FPSSj included) is a defensible position, it means Grade 3 is stronger than SSj3. I'm just throwing this out there

Also, yea, I fully understand what I'm saying. I am ok with saying that SSJ Grade 3 > SSJ3. The reason is because in that same Trunks anime book, LSSJ is talked about. Here, LSSJ is stated to have ultra first-class speed, unlike the USSJ form which had the problem with speed before. Obviously, Broly is being redone but at that time, when this guidebook was out, it incorporated Movie 8 and 10. I realize that people are going to think it is silly and overpowered. I did too at the time, but seeing all these bandai games showing SSJ3 fighting the older Broly as well as SSJ Gogeta made me think otherwise. Now, what we consider is silly is actually happening. The new Broly is stronger than Jiren and Beerus.

[Saturnine]

I know and I even acknowledge it. I never disputed the fact that Perfect Cell was hiding his power. The question is how much? This is the subjective and interpretation part. If you could incorporate official source material from guidebooks and make sense of it, wouldn't you? It's easy to dismiss things but I try to use what I can. For example, I've dismissed random guides by Funimation, but this one is by Shueisha. It came out in 2007 with the SEG following it in 2009. It doesn't contradict what's stated in SEG.

The thing is, you don't really need to, since you've got all you need in the manga. Going by manga statements and chains of events, you can easily conclude that Cell's full power was easily several times what he showed at standby. Future Trunks was already super impressed with 50% of Goku's FPSSj power, suggesting that alone was already stronger than Trunks. And Cell fought Goku at full power, which is over twice that. Going by that simple fact alone you arrive at the simple power chain of powered up Cell >/= 100% Goku > 50% Goku >/= Grade 3 Trunks. And that doesn't even include Full Power Perfect Cell, when he powered up against SSj2 Gohan. His full power was meant to be a big deal by multiple Z-fighters at that point, which means it was also a significant boost compared to the level Cell fought Goku at.

If you're so eager to go by supplementary material, why not analyze the manga without its often distorting lens? This reminds me of religions and their holy books and people saying they require the supplementary texts to properly understand them, just because they might not like the conclusions they'd arrive at on their own.

I think you're missing the point. The question is why would it even work as a ruse or tactical distraction if the form is weaker in power?

Ummm... because of the way we actually saw it work? Its strength was entirely irrelevant in that whole scene, since Trunks didn't use it to tank any attack or throw one - he didn't use this form's strength at all. All he used it for is to make Vegeta think he'd be at a certain level of speed and lull Vegeta into a false sense of security. And then he reverted into regular SSj (or FPSSj or SSj2, not really entirely clear from the scene, it was crappily made overall) and surprise Vegeta with his speed. It was a one-off trick that would never work twice, and Vegeta soon made Trunks regret it. How do you bring Grade 3's strength into this?

Vegeta said 3/10 to rate that tactic. It had nothing to do with anything else. The point I'm making here is that SSJ Grade 3 > SSJ2 in terms of power only. If it wasn't, then there would've been no logical reason to use it, even as a ruse.

And yet there was a perfectly logical reason, which I explained above.

No it's not apparent. You literally stated that both power and speed rise in proportion to the ki - a blanket statement without saying anything that implies generality like "usually" or "sometimes". I gave you an example of when ki rises and it doesn't cause an increase in speed as an example hence.

I made it abundantly clear that I understand that power weighted forms don't have an even power to speed ratio even in my first post. What made you think it would be called for to lay it out to me? Yes, there are exceptions, but they are really few and far between, and the rule that when your ki rises your speed and power do too is actually a very solid rule, bar these exceptions. With Grade 3 it's the additional weight of the muscles, their increased volume/area or friction due to muscle shape (or all three combined) that contribute to the speed penalty. But it's entirely unreasonable to think the speed is less than a tenth of what the strength is. If you go by the anime, Trunks did get a few hits in on Cell, and in the manga Cell did dodge him comfortably every time, but like I mentioned in one of the previous posts, even if Trunks was at like 80% of Cell's speed at that time, that would've been plenty enough for that to happen.

The only instance where a transformation actually reduces someone's speed to a tenth of what the ki would suggest is the Ozaru. When Vegeta transformed into a Great Ape, Goku mentioned that "he didn't get any slower at all"! Which leads me to infer that Vegeta's speed as an Ozaru was the same as in base, while the ki and the power multiplied 10 times. How much slower exactly Grade 3 is is up to debate, but all that we know from the manga is that it makes Trunks too slow to beat Cell while being physically stronger than him (at the time). Super Vegeta was also too slow to beat Cell.

I still don't get what you're saying. If you mean "incorporate" as in Grade 4 has all the power of Grade 2 and the balance of Grade 1, then yea, that doesn't make sense.

And yet Goku was many, many times stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta. At first Vegeta was confident after his second emergence from the RoSaT (where he mastered SSj himself) that he'd be above Kakarot, but then Goku whipped out his full power against Cell, which significantly eclipsed Vegeta's power, even after the second RoSaT trip. I'll have you know that in the manga Trunks and Vegeta never used Grade 2 during the Cell Games either, that was just the anime trying to make them more unique. They were regular SSjs in the manga.

Grade 4 is Grade 1 but without the stamina drain. It has exactly the same speed and power.

That's what your guidebooks say, and yet that's completely not what the manga shows. Goku's full power far, far eclipsed Vegeta's Grade 2 and Trunks' Grade 3. I know that many people rationalize it with some headcanon, like for example that mastering SSj makes you gain base power much faster via training and such, but nothing of the sort was ever implied in the manga. What was implied is that Goku's training was more efficient than Vegeta's, because Goku trained with a partner while Vegeta and Trunks never sparred, also Goku knew the importance of rest and relaxation periods, while Vegeta just murdered himself without properly resting. Still, even all these advantages wouldn't account for SSj Goku being 20x stronger than SSj Trunks (2x stronger than Grade 3 Trunks if we go by your 10x multiplier). If FPSSj was just about having more stamina than SSj and nothing else, it wouldn't have been made out to be such a big deal. We wouldn't have had the power gauging scene at Korin's tower, and everyone's reactions to it (Future Trunks included).

Grade 2 has slightly increased speed and power but some stamina drain. If it was incorporated, we would see the same physical changes in Grade 4 and it would be stated in the Trunks anime comic which is where the Grades were even given a name to begin with. The Grades don't have to have an accumulation effect. While the numbering convention implies that in order to get Grade 4, one must get Grade 2 and 3, but that's not true. These grades are essentially variations and are independent of one other. It's possible to get Grade 4 without ever having to reach Grade 2. Even SSJ2 was treated as Grade 5 but we saw that Caulifla jumped to it without having to do Grade 4 or 2.

Of course you don't need G2 and 3 to reach 4, if you're smart enough to train the right way from the very beginning. You get Grade 2 just by raising your power forcibly. Think a balloon that's being filled with water and inflating. The expansion puts stress on the balloon, it gets bigger and unstable. Release your hold on the balloon's neck, and all the water escapes. All that remains comfortably is just enough water inside so the balloon doesn't expand a bit - that's an unmastered SSj. Grade 3 is a balloon filled to the brim - it's heavy to carry around and threatens to burst. Now take all the water from this balloon and pour it into a glass. The glass can comfortably hold all this water without the risks of holding it in the balloon. It represents a conditioned body - used to the adverse effects of SSj and ready to unleash its true power. Its walls are hard, it doesn't become unstable in any way - and that's FPSSj. I hope you find this analogy to your liking

Also, yea, I fully understand what I'm saying. I am ok with saying that SSJ Grade 3 > SSJ3. The reason is because in that same Trunks anime book, LSSJ is talked about. Here, LSSJ is stated to have ultra first-class speed, unlike the USSJ form which had the problem with speed before. Obviously, Broly is being redone but at that time, when this guidebook was out, it incorporated Movie 8 and 10. I realize that people are going to think it is silly and overpowered. I did too at the time, but seeing all these bandai games showing SSJ3 fighting the older Broly as well as SSJ Gogeta made me think otherwise. Now, what we consider is silly is actually happening. The new Broly is stronger than Jiren and Beerus.

How do you drag Broly into this???? This just about ruined your credibility. The movies are not canon to the manga and the mechanics of their transformations shouldn't be used as arguments when discussing manga transformations. Also, using freaking games as an argument for LSSj Broly being stronger than SSj3, when in the freaking movie itself he was murked with a single punch from Goku with just some power from four half-dead, base warriors? Promotional material in games doesn't mean diddly squat. If you're trying to drag the movies into this, base your claims on the actual movies! In movie 10, Gohan was a SSj2, and yet he put up a decent fight with who you think should be SSj3 level even in Movie 8, because some guidebook said so.

Really man, pay more attention to the actual source material and less to guides with a huge likelihood of containing entirely arbitrary/unreliable information written by people with no better knowledge of the series than an average fan.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Goku doesn't beat Frieza until after his stamina drops, therefore we don't know if Goku was actually stronger than 100% Frieza without drain. They trade blows enough times to make them seem equal.

It seems that way, but it's confirmed it's not with the offcial power levels:
Goku - 3,000,000
frieza (50%) - 60,000,000
full power - 120,000,000
ssj goku - 150,000,000
Plus, in the manga version it's been sayed by many that it appears the fight wasn't taken that seriously by goku. I don't know dude, I agree with you a lot but this time; you're not making much sense and are going against estblished facts with feelings. Like I can understand if you don't take the ssj2 and 3 multiplyers seriously - but ssj and goku ssj being weaker then frieza? .... No. But agree to dissagree.

I'm not saying that Goku is weaker than Frieza, I'm just saying that he doesn't seem 30 million BP stronger than Frieza. I also don't think that Goku being 150 million on Namek means that SS has an objective multiplier. The entire point of Dragon Ball is Goku's journey of getting stronger, and when you limit his strength to, "just get a transformation with a better multiplier lol," that misses the entire point of what Toriyama is going for.

Also, Power Level guides contradict each other and the manga, so I don't know why I should care what they say. The entire point of my argument is that PL guides are illegitimate, so disproving my argument with PL guides misses the point.

That's fair.

[Bergamo]

It seems that way, but it's confirmed it's not with the offcial power levels:
Goku - 3,000,000
frieza (50%) - 60,000,000
full power - 120,000,000
ssj goku - 150,000,000
Plus, in the manga version it's been sayed by many that it appears the fight wasn't taken that seriously by goku. I don't know dude, I agree with you a lot but this time; you're not making much sense and are going against estblished facts with feelings. Like I can understand if you don't take the ssj2 and 3 multiplyers seriously - but ssj and goku ssj being weaker then frieza? .... No. But agree to dissagree.

I'm not saying that Goku is weaker than Frieza, I'm just saying that he doesn't seem 30 million BP stronger than Frieza. I also don't think that Goku being 150 million on Namek means that SS has an objective multiplier. The entire point of Dragon Ball is Goku's journey of getting stronger, and when you limit his strength to, "just get a transformation with a better multiplier lol," that misses the entire point of what Toriyama is going for.

Also, Power Level guides contradict each other and the manga, so I don't know why I should care what they say. The entire point of my argument is that PL guides are illegitimate, so disproving my argument with PL guides misses the point.

That's fair.

I don't think there is a problem with using guides, but guidebooks shouldn't be used as the only interpretation of the source material.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I'm not saying that Goku is weaker than Frieza, I'm just saying that he doesn't seem 30 million BP stronger than Frieza. I also don't think that Goku being 150 million on Namek means that SS has an objective multiplier. The entire point of Dragon Ball is Goku's journey of getting stronger, and when you limit his strength to, "just get a transformation with a better multiplier lol," that misses the entire point of what Toriyama is going for.

Also, Power Level guides contradict each other and the manga, so I don't know why I should care what they say. The entire point of my argument is that PL guides are illegitimate, so disproving my argument with PL guides misses the point.

That's fair.

I don't think there is a problem with using guides, but guidebooks shouldn't be used as the only interpretation of the source material.

I just thought that 50x multiplayer is confirmed by toriyama as with those power levels up until the Frieza arc. I used to also believe what you did and fluctuate all the sayains multipliers I please to create my own spins on dragon ball (did this for years), but after awhile I realized my story became way to contrived and forceful. It's best to make consistent multiplayers and kinda further the story with those laws in place instead of bending the rules to bolster whatever you are narratively trying to accomplish. So that's why I stuck to that ssj is 50x base. But for ssj2 and 3 I changed it up. Ssj2 is 4x ssj. And ssj3 is 5x ssj2. And I nerf the heck out of metamora fusion. Lol,
Ssj is only 2x base, and ssj3 is only 2x ssj.
But yeah, I don't agree with your ssj. I think ssj should always be 50x.
Though since goku ssj to ssj rose wasn't as big of an multiplayer it should be, maybe base to ssj really wasn't much of an boost either. If that were the case, albeit very convuluted and not enough explaining, the. Toyotaro didn't screw up the power scailing as bad as I thought.

[Bergamo]

That's fair.

I don't think there is a problem with using guides, but guidebooks shouldn't be used as the only interpretation of the source material.

I just thought that 50x multiplayer is confirmed by toriyama as with those power levels up until the Frieza arc. I used to also believe what you did and fluctuate all the sayains multipliers I please to create my own spins on dragon ball (did this for years), but after awhile I realized my story became way to contrived and forceful. It's best to make consistent multiplayers and kinda further the story with those laws in place instead of bending the rules to bolster whatever you are narratively trying to accomplish. So that's why I stuck to that ssj is 50x base. But for ssj2 and 3 I changed it up. Ssj2 is 4x ssj. And ssj3 is 5x ssj2. And I nerf the heck out of metamora fusion. Lol,
Ssj is only 2x base, and ssj3 is only 2x ssj.
But yeah, I don't agree with your ssj. I think ssj should always be 50x.
Though since goku ssj to ssj rose wasn't as big of an multiplayer it should be, maybe base to ssj really wasn't much of an boost either. If that were the case, albeit very convuluted and not enough explaining, the. Toyotaro didn't screw up the power scailing as bad as I thought.

I personally think it's less convoluted to think that anyone can be however strong with proper training. I do think there is no way to argue that multipliers exist in Toyotaro's manga. The original manga is one thing, but Toyotaro likes to have SS2s equal to SS3s and SS1s equal to SSBs.

[shadowfox87]

The thing is, you don't really need to, since you've got all you need in the manga. Going by manga statements and chains of events, you can easily conclude that Cell's full power was easily several times what he showed at standby. Future Trunks was already super impressed with 50% of Goku's FPSSj power, suggesting that alone was already stronger than Trunks. And Cell fought Goku at full power, which is over twice that. Going by that simple fact alone you arrive at the simple power chain of powered up Cell >/= 100% Goku > 50% Goku >/= Grade 3 Trunks. And that doesn't even include Full Power Perfect Cell, when he powered up against SSj2 Gohan. His full power was meant to be a big deal by multiple Z-fighters at that point, which means it was also a significant boost compared to the level Cell fought Goku at.

If you're so eager to go by supplementary material, why not analyze the manga without its often distorting lens? This reminds me of religions and their holy books and people saying they require the supplementary texts to properly understand them, just because they might not like the conclusions they'd arrive at on their own.

Not sure where the topic religious books came from. The point is that there are things in the manga that are vangue, subjective, and open to interpretation. Using supplementary material like the Daizenshuu, SEG, etc. as long as it doesn't contradict the manga is completely fine as it adds clarity. What you consider a "big deal" is a subjective statement. "Oh that guy looks powerful!" - This is a subjective statement. "That guy is 10x more powerful than that guy." - This is an objective statement. Trunks is impressed" - Subjective. "Means that Goku's power is higher than his own." - Assumption. I'd rather be objective and see if I can quantify something if it doesn't contradict it in the manga. The question is - does it contradict anything in the manga? Yes or No? Does it explicitly state in the manga that this is impossible for Grade 3 to be 10x? Yes or No? "

Anyways this is all headcanon. I'm not even sure why we're debating this. You want to dismiss the supplementary material. Ok, no big deal. Since you don't want to use supplementary material, then you should also just throw away "Grades" since that was a name given by supplementary material. I mean all you need is the manga right? You can use whatever multiplier you feel is correct for Grade 3. We'll agree to disagree.

Ummm... because of the way we actually saw it work? Its strength was entirely irrelevant in that whole scene, since Trunks didn't use it to tank any attack or throw one - he didn't use this form's strength at all. All he used it for is to make Vegeta think he'd be at a certain level of speed and lull Vegeta into a false sense of security. And then he reverted into regular SSj (or FPSSj or SSj2, not really entirely clear from the scene, it was crappily made overall) and surprise Vegeta with his speed. It was a one-off trick that would never work twice, and Vegeta soon made Trunks regret it. How do you bring Grade 3's strength into this?

Again, missing the point. Why did the ruse work at all? What was the logical basis of using it? Grade 3 was meant as a distraction so that Vegeta would be lured in and then Trunks would switch quickly to SSJ2. The question is why would Trunks power DOWN to an inferior form to lure Vegeta? If the form is inferior in both power AND speed, why? Vegeta told him that he's stupid for going into that form because he thought Trunks would have learned by now that the form's weakness is speed. Yet, he used it still. If the tactic was just to lower Trunks guard to give Vegeta a false sense of security, he could have done that in many ways. The purpose of the Grade 3 wasn't to attack or block but to act as bait. Hell, Trunks could've just powered down to a regular SSJ as bait or base to fool Vegeta in the same way. Transforming into Grade 3 itself consumed stamina.

I made it abundantly clear that I understand that power weighted forms don't have an even power to speed ratio even in my first post. What made you think it would be called for to lay it out to me? Yes, there are exceptions, but they are really few and far between, and the rule that when your ki rises your speed and power do too is actually a very solid rule, bar these exceptions. With Grade 3 it's the additional weight of the muscles, their increased volume/area or friction due to muscle shape (or all three combined) that contribute to the speed penalty. But it's entirely unreasonable to think the speed is less than a tenth of what the strength is. If you go by the anime, Trunks did get a few hits in on Cell, and in the manga Cell did dodge him comfortably every time, but like I mentioned in one of the previous posts, even if Trunks was at like 80% of Cell's speed at that time, that would've been plenty enough for that to happen.

You literally stated a blanket statement and implied fact, "In Dragon Ball the bigger your ki is, the bigger both your power and speed are". Now you're saying that you made it abundantly clear that is isn't the case and that there are exceptions lol. Anyways carry on. The increased muscle mass is what caused the speed decrease. Speed is sacrificed for power. Cell was toying with Trunks. If Trunks' hits wouldn't have hurt Cell at all, why not just show him that his efforts are futile? In Dragon Ball, fighters are already moving quite fast, 1/10 may not be very apparent to Trunks who didn't realize it.

And yet Goku was many, many times stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta. At first Vegeta was confident after his second emergence from the RoSaT (where he mastered SSj himself) that he'd be above Kakarot, but then Goku whipped out his full power against Cell, which significantly eclipsed Vegeta's power, even after the second RoSaT trip. I'll have you know that in the manga Trunks and Vegeta never used Grade 2 during the Cell Games either, that was just the anime trying to make them more unique. They were regular SSjs in the manga

This may just be due to Goku having a higher base strength overall than Vegeta. It was told to us by Whis in DBS, that Vegeta's weakness is that he doesn't learn to rest or relax. He trains continuously. Goku went in the RoSaT for a day and then came out, spending the rest of the days just relaxing and maintaining SSJ Grade 4. All of this factors in. If you exercise and you don't let your body rest, then it's not optimal for muscle growth. For the same reason, if we compare apples to apples, then we would have to compare Goku in SSJ Grade 2 vs Goku in SSJ Grade 4 and compare their power and speed. Comparing Vegeta to Goku has the assumption that their bases are exactly equal. There's nothing in the Trunks anime comic to imply that Grade 4 has incorporated the added boost in power and speed from Grade 2.

That's what your guidebooks say, and yet that's completely not what the manga shows. Goku's full power far, far eclipsed Vegeta's Grade 2 and Trunks' Grade 3. I know that many people rationalize it with some headcanon, like for example that mastering SSj makes you gain base power much faster via training and such, but nothing of the sort was ever implied in the manga. What was implied is that Goku's training was more efficient than Vegeta's, because Goku trained with a partner while Vegeta and Trunks never sparred, also Goku knew the importance of rest and relaxation periods, while Vegeta just murdered himself without properly resting. Still, even all these advantages wouldn't account for SSj Goku being 20x stronger than SSj Trunks (2x stronger than Grade 3 Trunks if we go by your 10x multiplier). If FPSSj was just about having more stamina than SSj and nothing else, it wouldn't have been made out to be such a big deal. We wouldn't have had the power gauging scene at Korin's tower, and everyone's reactions to it (Future Trunks included).

It's not my guidebooks, but Shueisha's lol. If a new guidebook were to come that would replace or retcon the information, that's fine by me. Again for the same reason, you are not comparing apples to apples. You're assuming that Goku = Vegeta = Trunks. That they have equal bases so you can just compare their grades. Everything you're stating is based on implication. "Implied in manga". Nothing in the manga explicitly contradicts what is stated in the guidebooks. Rather, your "implication" of what you interpret from the manga contradicts it.

It's hard to fathom that a higher grade like Grade 4 is nothing special except for having more stamina. This is the issue. Goku powering up to 50% on Korin's tower was for him to gauge his own strength to see what he's achieved in all his time training. To ignore that Goku's base strength did not rise during this training is silly.

Of course you don't need G2 and 3 to reach 4, if you're smart enough to train the right way from the very beginning. You get Grade 2 just by raising your power forcibly. Think a balloon that's being filled with water and inflating. The expansion puts stress on the balloon, it gets bigger and unstable. Release your hold on the balloon's neck, and all the water escapes. All that remains comfortably is just enough water inside so the balloon doesn't expand a bit - that's an unmastered SSj. Grade 3 is a balloon filled to the brim - it's heavy to carry around and threatens to burst. Now take all the water from this balloon and pour it into a glass. The glass can comfortably hold all this water without the risks of holding it in the balloon. It represents a conditioned body - used to the adverse effects of SSj and ready to unleash its true power. Its walls are hard, it doesn't become unstable in any way - and that's FPSSj. I hope you find this analogy to your liking

Loved the analogy given that I'm into physics and a scientist in real life, so good job on that. The analogy was unnecessary though since I don't disagree with any of that. I didn't say that you ever required Grade 2 or 3 to achieve 4. You don't even need it to go into SSJ2. As I've said previously, the Grades are independent of each other and variations.

How do you drag Broly into this???? This just about ruined your credibility. The movies are not canon to the manga and the mechanics of their transformations shouldn't be used as arguments when discussing manga transformations. Also, using freaking games as an argument for LSSj Broly being stronger than SSj3, when in the freaking movie itself he was murked with a single punch from Goku with just some power from four half-dead, base warriors? Promotional material in games doesn't mean diddly squat. If you're trying to drag the movies into this, base your claims on the actual movies! In movie 10, Gohan was a SSj2, and yet he put up a decent fight with who you think should be SSj3 level even in Movie 8, because some guidebook said so.

The Daizenshuu and guidebooks all discuss those movies, so it is relevant. Like I said, if you want to throw away the supplementary material, then don't even call them Grades because that was a name given from the Trunks anime comic. All the stuff about Grade 2 being higher in speed and power was also from the Trunks anime comic. This same book did have information regarding the speed classes of B-type Super Saiyans so I don't think it's wrong to dismiss it completely. Credibility is determined by logic and whether that logic contradicts anything in the source material. In Movie 8, Goku defeated Broly with a single punch after absorbing energies of four-half dead warriors. You're right. Then he returned and got a zenkai. In Movie 10, Gohan fought Broly as a SSJ2. So no, in Movie 8, Broly was not near SSJ3 level. After his zenkai, probably. At the time, I remember finding it silly to even fathom that Broly would be stronger than a SSJ3 and made fun of Broly fans. Right now, Broly is stronger than a Hakaishin if you really want to go by strictly source material. This is the new Broly.

Really man, pay more attention to the actual source material and less to guides with a huge likelihood of containing entirely arbitrary/unreliable information written by people with no better knowledge of the series than an average fan.

Trust me, I pay attention to the source material. I've written several articles on this forum, referencing manga chapters. You can even read the threads in my sig. The source material is always priority. The problem is when the source material is vague and open to interpretation. This is when supplementary material can add some clarity. The issue is though when you take that "vague" information from the source material, add your own headcanon that contradicts the supplementary material. Then you have either two choices - 1. The supplementary material is wrong and written by people who don't know anything. 2. Your headcanon is wrong. Even if the headcanon and supplementary material each don't contradict the manga, one has to pick a choice. In this case, people pick the former because they rather keep their headcanon and that's completely ok as long as you state that you are dismissing that supplementary material.[/quote]

All of this is headcanon debates. So I think we'll just agree to disagree about Grade 3 and move on. As for Grade 4 SSJ , you believe that it incorporates Grade 2 and has higher speed and power than Grade 1, not just higher stamina. Therefore, for you Grade 4 SSJ > 50x Base. So I'm curious what multiplier you use then for Grade 4 if not 50?

[Jesus-is Lord]

I don't think there is a problem with using guides, but guidebooks shouldn't be used as the only interpretation of the source material.

I just thought that 50x multiplayer is confirmed by toriyama as with those power levels up until the Frieza arc. I used to also believe what you did and fluctuate all the sayains multipliers I please to create my own spins on dragon ball (did this for years), but after awhile I realized my story became way to contrived and forceful. It's best to make consistent multiplayers and kinda further the story with those laws in place instead of bending the rules to bolster whatever you are narratively trying to accomplish. So that's why I stuck to that ssj is 50x base. But for ssj2 and 3 I changed it up. Ssj2 is 4x ssj. And ssj3 is 5x ssj2. And I nerf the heck out of metamora fusion. Lol,
Ssj is only 2x base, and ssj3 is only 2x ssj.
But yeah, I don't agree with your ssj. I think ssj should always be 50x.
Though since goku ssj to ssj rose wasn't as big of an multiplayer it should be, maybe base to ssj really wasn't much of an boost either. If that were the case, albeit very convuluted and not enough explaining, the. Toyotaro didn't screw up the power scailing as bad as I thought.

I personally think it's less convoluted to think that anyone can be however strong with proper training. I do think there is no way to argue that multipliers exist in Toyotaro's manga. The original manga is one thing, but Toyotaro likes to have SS2s equal to SS3s and SS1s equal to SSBs.

Not the same. Just because the forms are near in power, does not mean they have the same multiplier. Ssj2 trunks was equal to ssj2 goku, then he powered up in his ssj2 state to get to goku ssj3 level. Just be ssj you have an intial multiplayer state for the forms does not mean you can't work on improving and discovering the secret mutations and powers up that form brings. Like example, ssj brings grade two and 3. Ssj2 can be increased in power if you train enough in it. Ssj blue can bring about mssj blue. Full power ssj2 trunks dosent prove your point. Because that ssj2 trunks that fought goku wasn't an normal ssj2.
Ssj black had an zenkai, not the same. Your examples are quite mis-leading. If you can find me an example in toyotaro work that shows two fighters being equal base level, and they power-up to the same form, but one fighter is somehow stronger then the other...if you can find me an example of that - your argument will hold strong credence.

[Bergamo]

I just thought that 50x multiplayer is confirmed by toriyama as with those power levels up until the Frieza arc. I used to also believe what you did and fluctuate all the sayains multipliers I please to create my own spins on dragon ball (did this for years), but after awhile I realized my story became way to contrived and forceful. It's best to make consistent multiplayers and kinda further the story with those laws in place instead of bending the rules to bolster whatever you are narratively trying to accomplish. So that's why I stuck to that ssj is 50x base. But for ssj2 and 3 I changed it up. Ssj2 is 4x ssj. And ssj3 is 5x ssj2. And I nerf the heck out of metamora fusion. Lol,
Ssj is only 2x base, and ssj3 is only 2x ssj.
But yeah, I don't agree with your ssj. I think ssj should always be 50x.
Though since goku ssj to ssj rose wasn't as big of an multiplayer it should be, maybe base to ssj really wasn't much of an boost either. If that were the case, albeit very convuluted and not enough explaining, the. Toyotaro didn't screw up the power scailing as bad as I thought.

I personally think it's less convoluted to think that anyone can be however strong with proper training. I do think there is no way to argue that multipliers exist in Toyotaro's manga. The original manga is one thing, but Toyotaro likes to have SS2s equal to SS3s and SS1s equal to SSBs.

Not the same. Just because the forms are near in power, does not mean they have the same multiplier. Ssj2 trunks was equal to ssj2 goku, then he powered up in his ssj2 state to get to goku ssj3 level. Just be ssj you have an intial multiplayer state for the forms does not mean you can't work on improving and discovering the secret mutations and powers up that form brings. Like example, ssj brings grade two and 3. Ssj2 can be increased in power if you train enough in it. Ssj blue can bring about mssj blue. Full power ssj2 trunks dosent prove your point. Because that ssj2 trunks that fought goku wasn't an normal ssj2.
Ssj black had an zenkai, not the same. Your examples are quite mis-leading. If you can find me an example in toyotaro work that shows two fighters being equal base level, and they power-up to the same form, but one fighter is somehow stronger then the other...if you can find me an example of that - your argument will hold strong credence.

Vegeta and Cabbe are equal in base form. SS Vegeta is stronger than SS Cabbe.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I personally think it's less convoluted to think that anyone can be however strong with proper training. I do think there is no way to argue that multipliers exist in Toyotaro's manga. The original manga is one thing, but Toyotaro likes to have SS2s equal to SS3s and SS1s equal to SSBs.

Not the same. Just because the forms are near in power, does not mean they have the same multiplier. Ssj2 trunks was equal to ssj2 goku, then he powered up in his ssj2 state to get to goku ssj3 level. Just be ssj you have an intial multiplayer state for the forms does not mean you can't work on improving and discovering the secret mutations and powers up that form brings. Like example, ssj brings grade two and 3. Ssj2 can be increased in power if you train enough in it. Ssj blue can bring about mssj blue. Full power ssj2 trunks dosent prove your point. Because that ssj2 trunks that fought goku wasn't an normal ssj2.
Ssj black had an zenkai, not the same. Your examples are quite mis-leading. If you can find me an example in toyotaro work that shows two fighters being equal base level, and they power-up to the same form, but one fighter is somehow stronger then the other...if you can find me an example of that - your argument will hold strong credence.

Vegeta and Cabbe are equal in base form. SS Vegeta is stronger than SS Cabbe.

Never stated in the manga. Vegeta never said cabba and his base are equal.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes. According to Vegeta in the 25th Budokai, it doesn't matter whether they're going to fight as SSJs or in base; he's still gonna be the strongest in the tournament. This strongly implies SSJ multiplier is a fix multiplier and that a A > B > C power chain would be the same independent of them being Base Saiyans or Super Saiyans. How big this multiplier is is debeatable though.

[Bergamo]

Yes. According to Vegeta in the 25th Budokai, it doesn't matter whether they're going to fight as SSJs or in base; he's still gonna be the strongest in the tournament. This strongly implies SSJ multiplier is a fix multiplier and that a A > B > C power chain would be the same independent of them being Base Saiyans or Super Saiyans. How big this multiplier is is debeatable though.

Vegeta was just being cocky. As seen in the Cell Saga, mastery of Super Saiyan can be stronger than an implicitly better form(Grade 2).

Not the same. Just because the forms are near in power, does not mean they have the same multiplier. Ssj2 trunks was equal to ssj2 goku, then he powered up in his ssj2 state to get to goku ssj3 level. Just be ssj you have an intial multiplayer state for the forms does not mean you can't work on improving and discovering the secret mutations and powers up that form brings. Like example, ssj brings grade two and 3. Ssj2 can be increased in power if you train enough in it. Ssj blue can bring about mssj blue. Full power ssj2 trunks dosent prove your point. Because that ssj2 trunks that fought goku wasn't an normal ssj2.
Ssj black had an zenkai, not the same. Your examples are quite mis-leading. If you can find me an example in toyotaro work that shows two fighters being equal base level, and they power-up to the same form, but one fighter is somehow stronger then the other...if you can find me an example of that - your argument will hold strong credence.

Vegeta and Cabbe are equal in base form. SS Vegeta is stronger than SS Cabbe.

Never stated in the manga. Vegeta never said cabba and his base are equal.

"In your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself."
-Vegeta, Chapter 12

[Jesus-is Lord]

Yes. According to Vegeta in the 25th Budokai, it doesn't matter whether they're going to fight as SSJs or in base; he's still gonna be the strongest in the tournament. This strongly implies SSJ multiplier is a fix multiplier and that a A > B > C power chain would be the same independent of them being Base Saiyans or Super Saiyans. How big this multiplier is is debeatable though.

Vegeta was just being cocky. As seen in the Cell Saga, mastery of Super Saiyan can be stronger than an implicitly better form(Grade 2).

Vegeta and Cabbe are equal in base form. SS Vegeta is stronger than SS Cabbe.

Never stated in the manga. Vegeta never said cabba and his base are equal.

"In your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself."
-Vegeta, Chapter 12

In my translation, it says basically along the lines of "With your power and tactics, you be strong enough to keep up with me, in this state (though this is the translation that cusses a lot)Plus it was never shown in the manga that ssj cabba was weaker then ssj vegeta. I think base vegeta >= cabba in base and ssj.

[Bergamo]

Yes. According to Vegeta in the 25th Budokai, it doesn't matter whether they're going to fight as SSJs or in base; he's still gonna be the strongest in the tournament. This strongly implies SSJ multiplier is a fix multiplier and that a A > B > C power chain would be the same independent of them being Base Saiyans or Super Saiyans. How big this multiplier is is debeatable though.

Vegeta was just being cocky. As seen in the Cell Saga, mastery of Super Saiyan can be stronger than an implicitly better form(Grade 2).

Never stated in the manga. Vegeta never said cabba and his base are equal.

"In your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself."
-Vegeta, Chapter 12

In my translation, it says basically along the lines of "With your power and tactics, you be strong enough to keep up with me, in this state (though this is the translation that cusses a lot)Plus it was never shown in the manga that ssj cabba was weaker then ssj vegeta. I think base vegeta >= cabba in base and ssj.

1. I'm using the official translation.
2. Base Trunks < Base Goku
SS2 Trunks(before power up) > SS2 Goku

[Jesus-is Lord]

Vegeta was just being cocky. As seen in the Cell Saga, mastery of Super Saiyan can be stronger than an implicitly better form(Grade 2).

"In your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself."
-Vegeta, Chapter 12

In my translation, it says basically along the lines of "With your power and tactics, you be strong enough to keep up with me, in this state (though this is the translation that cusses a lot)Plus it was never shown in the manga that ssj cabba was weaker then ssj vegeta. I think base vegeta >= cabba in base and ssj.

1. I'm using the official translation.
2. Base Trunks < Base Goku
SS2 Trunks(before power up) > SS2 Goku

1. He said "about" so it dosent say cabba = vegeta.
2. Solid evidence that proves base goku > base trunks?

[Bergamo]

In my translation, it says basically along the lines of "With your power and tactics, you be strong enough to keep up with me, in this state (though this is the translation that cusses a lot)Plus it was never shown in the manga that ssj cabba was weaker then ssj vegeta. I think base vegeta >= cabba in base and ssj.

1. I'm using the official translation.
2. Base Trunks < Base Goku
SS2 Trunks(before power up) > SS2 Goku

1. He said "about" so it dosent say cabba = vegeta.
2. Solid evidence that proves base goku > base trunks?

1. I guess you could argue that Vegeta is a little stronger.
2. Goku blocked a punch from Trunks with minimal effort.

[Jesus-is Lord]

1. I'm using the official translation.
2. Base Trunks < Base Goku
SS2 Trunks(before power up) > SS2 Goku

1. He said "about" so it dosent say cabba = vegeta.
2. Solid evidence that proves base goku > base trunks?

1. I guess you could argue that Vegeta is a little stronger.
2. Goku blocked a punch from Trunks with minimal effort.

2. Okay so...? Anything else? Toyotaro and Akira make sure they have a good power scale...but I think you look a little to much into everything. But I'm just pushing your buttons, it does seem trunks in base is not as strong as base goku and vegeta based on they are always telling trunks to move away from battle, you generally feel as though they kind of look down upon him. It's werid. I just think it was bad writing as in toyotaro didn't know how strong he wanted to write trunks. I wish full power ssj2 was as strong as ssj2 goku. That would have greatly helped the power scale. Then when goku said even trunks can beat Kai zamsu, that would have tied perfectly with the anime on how ssj2 goku made quick work of zamsu. Oh well...Shrugs

[Bergamo]

1. He said "about" so it dosent say cabba = vegeta.
2. Solid evidence that proves base goku > base trunks?

1. I guess you could argue that Vegeta is a little stronger.
2. Goku blocked a punch from Trunks with minimal effort.

2. Okay so...? Anything else? Toyotaro and Akira make sure they have a good power scale...but I think you look a little to much into everything. But I'm just pushing your buttons, it does seem trunks in base is not as strong as base goku and vegeta based on they are always telling trunks to move away from battle, you generally feel as though they kind of look down upon him. It's werid. I just think it was bad writing as in toyotaro didn't know how strong he wanted to write trunks. I wish full power ssj2 was as strong as ssj2 goku. That would have greatly helped the power scale. Then when goku said even trunks can beat Kai zamsu, that would have tied perfectly with the anime on how ssj2 goku made quick work of zamsu. Oh well...Shrugs

I think FPSS2 Trunks is only as strong as he is so that he could look cool in his fight against Goku. They made Trunks so strong that Goku decided to use his God form to fight him. This fight against Goku is the only power feat that Trunks gets, so they might as well give him something special.

[Saturnine]

All of this is headcanon debates. So I think we'll just agree to disagree about Grade 3 and move on. As for Grade 4 SSJ , you believe that it incorporates Grade 2 and has higher speed and power than Grade 1, not just higher stamina. Therefore, for you Grade 4 SSJ > 50x Base. So I'm curious what multiplier you use then for Grade 4 if not 50?

100x I suppose. Or 75x, depending what your Grade 3 multi is. It could even be 4x regular SSj for all we know, which would make the multi 200x.

There's a more elegant solution to that, though, which is going with the decreasing multipliers theory - the bigger your base power, the lesser the SSj multiplier. If Goku on Namek was 3 million and had a 50x multi for an untrained SSj, then let's assume that at a base power of 30 million, the multiplier would be 25x . Grade 2 would make it 37,5x, Grade 3 - 50x, and Grade 4 also 50x, but with proportional speed. Before the SEG came out it was not unheard of (quite prevalent in fact) to acknowledge that SSj was 50x on Namek, but like 5x in the Buu arc, with super-high bases. Lately this way of thinking got discredited, due to everyone thinking BoG base Goku was below 100% Freeza because of Beerus' statement, but it's quite an elegant way to resolve this. You could take SSj Vegeta vs Cabba as evidence that a mastered Super Saiyan is stronger than a raw, just-awakened one, because Goku and Cabba were pretty much even in base, while in SSj Vegeta had a clear advantage.