The manga is its own thing

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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superfan2024
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The manga is its own thing

Post by superfan2024 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:13 pm

I'm not entirely sure if it is still considered that the anime is the "main product" of Super, but i'm getting tired of reading crap like "well forget what happens in this (manga), because this happened in the anime and the anime is the main product." It's tiring at this point. Sure, the manga may have initially been used to promote the anime, but I think we all can agree that it is it's own thing now. Toyotaro even stated that at some point in time, he would be ahead giving information back to the anime staff just as the anime staff has been ahead of him (FT/ToP) while he was ahead during the beginning of the U6 Arc.

They are two things branched from Toriyama's outlines. They use ideas from each other. Simple as that.

No arguments in this thread please.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:22 pm

Lol you can't have a caveat "no arguments in this thread" because almost anything can spark an argument when it comes to Dragon Ball.

It is it's own thing and entirely separate from the anime. I hate when people apply stuff from the anime to the manga and vice versa. Completely different continuities.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:06 pm

The manga is only the main canon product according to Shueisha/bird studios. The anime is in the backseat.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by Skar » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:08 pm

Has it ever been said that the anime is the "main product"? It's the main product in the sense that more people watch anime but I mean they both follow the same outline so they're two different versions of the same story. Toriyama supervises both but I think it's easier for him to overlook the manga as a monthly release than to check off every detail of every episode in the anime. If someone were to ask him in an interview, would Toriyama dismiss the manga as just a promotional work and claim the anime is the main product in his eyes?

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:18 pm

The "main product" argument is one of the worst arguments in support of the anime. I actually like both the anime and manga. I do treat them separately. Each has their pros and cons. However, what bothers me is when people say that anime is the "main product" so it trumps the manga. One just needs to be objective and look at "continuity" instead of "canon". It's also incorrect to say "there's no canon" because the "canon" is defined for "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z" which is the original manga by Toriyama. For "Dragon Ball Super", it's undefined and that's all there is to it. For all purposes, the anime is canon to itself and the manga is canon to itself. You can read the thread in my sig titled, "DBS Manga vs Anime Differences" for a more detailed breakdown.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:29 pm

I certainly have other things to say, but I gotta say this before we move on: "it's" means "it is", while "its" is possessive. :)
Miracles wrote:The manga is also the main canon product according to Shueisha/bird studios. The anime is in the backseat.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
There are valid questions about the specifics of the translations on that. There has never been a single instance of Shueisha, Toei, etc. using the word "canon" (or a Japanese equivalent); the closest has been the Battle of Gods press release touting it as a new entry in the "official history" of the series. I'm sure it works perfectly fine in context to its original Japanese script for a casual read at an event, but the obvious issues come into play with the pedants around this issue (and let's be clear, I consider myself one of them). It's definitely the kind of slightly-awkward translation that may have some very innocent meaning behind it, but can / will be / is twisted and used to fit any given argument.
Skar wrote:Has it ever been said that the anime is the "main product"?
Dragon Ball Super was announced solely as a television series; it was not announced as a multimedia (360? do people still use that term?) product.

The manga was initially described as a "comicalization" of the television series, which has some very inherent/distinct meaning to it.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's also incorrect to say "there's no canon"
What are the canonical specifics of how the manga ends?

(I'm not willing to actually get into this conversation here, but I'm also incapable of just letting that slide!)

-----

Much like how Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission started as nothing more than a two-page spread with a loosely-connected story each month that eventually grew into a full serial, yes, at this point it's very clear that the Dragon Ball Super manga has grown into something the production team never envisioned at the start. We've gone from a Battle of Gods retelling that moved so quickly through the material that you had to have seen the movie or TV version to get the full picture, to a completely skipped story arc, to a story arc that began deviating from certain plot points, to a story arc that then wildly deviated from major plot points, to where we are now with the Universe Survival arc.

I just don't see the point in having any strong opinion any further than just acknowledging that. Both exist. Both are widely available. It's different than how Dragon Ball was originally produced, but 2015 is very different from 1984, and the franchise is in a completely different place than it was 30-odd years ago. You're entitled to like one, like both, like elements of one and maybe not the other, ignore one, semi-ignore pieces here and there, whatever. It's your fandom and you're entitled to like or dislike whatever you want.

Stating that Dragon Ball Super was conceived as an anime is not in and of itself some kind of condemnation of the manga. It only becomes that if and when someone goes into detail about what they dislike, and that's only acceptable if what they post — be it about the TV series, the manga, or anything else Super or otherwise — lives up to the spirit of our community guidelines. We're interested in your thoughtful opinions; leave your vitriol and low-effort posts at the door.
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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:36 pm

Of course the manga is its own thing now.
But it’s incorrect to say that the anime isn’t the main product.
First of all, if it wasn’t for the anime being popular we wouldn’t have Super, and as a consequence not even the manga. Second, Toriyama decided to continue his story through the anime and not by hiring an artist to draw a weekly manga. Which is something he could have easily done.

Toyotaro found himself lucky to be picked to draw Heroes, as he then was moved to Super’s manga to promote the anime. The manga is Dragon Ball, so of course it sold decently and they decided to capitalize on it by allowing Toyotaro to change the story compared to Toei’s, to also ease his work and to make the manga its own thing. As with every Dragon Ball property, Toriyama supervises it and he seemingly has almost no issues with Toyotaro’s work. Yet he doesn’t care about the anime adapting it as they did back in the days with his manga, and they also have no intention of moving the manga to Weekly Jump, which is where a true Dragon Ball manga sequel would belong. VJump is just a promotional tool, as still is the manga sort of.

It’s true that Toriyama was angry with Toei for Super’s quality, but its also true he hasn’t given up on them and he worked with them to fix Super behind the scenes, which is why it’s now off the air with a movie written by Toriyama coming, with new designs done by Naohiro Shintani, who Toriyama personally picked after an audition, and with the colors being similar to the ones used in the full color manga.
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What I consider canonical

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:39 pm

Yes manga walks a slightly different way that seems to be more controlled by Toriyama due to the time factor as well as the convenience of the medium for him .
Main product I guess is the anime just because of numbers ... you choose who is the main
Canon thing .. I don’t care , both of them , if we assume that manga is , we can’t deny that goku order hit to assassinate him neither we can’t deny there’s some mini-cells living on 17 island , as some examples ...
It’s normal to have personal preferences in this two mediums , both have good and less good points .
It’s unnormal to throw to the garbage the medium you have less appeal for.
I like better the manga , that doesn’t mean anime fans should be in defense mode or thinking about my words as an attack , it’s call freedom . Respect of opinions and freedom of speech are separate by a thin line
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:42 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I certainly have other things to say, but I gotta say this before we move on: "it's" means "it is", while "its" is possessive. :)
Miracles wrote:The manga is also the main canon product according to Shueisha/bird studios. The anime is in the backseat.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
There are valid questions about the specifics of the translations on that. There has never been a single instance of Shueisha, Toei, etc. using the word "canon" (or a Japanese equivalent); the closest has been the Battle of Gods press release touting it as a new entry in the "official history" of the series. I'm sure it works perfectly fine in context to its original Japanese script for a casual read at an event, but the obvious issues come into play with the pedants around this issue (and let's be clear, I consider myself one of them). It's definitely the kind of slightly-awkward translation that may have some very innocent meaning behind it, but can / will be / is twisted and used to fit any given argument.
Yes, canon has different word usage....It's merely what is accepted by authority as true/official story. Your example has "Official History" and the images I posted has the authentic timeline of DB's official history with the Super manga only continuing it labeled by Shueisha.
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:49 pm

VegettoEX wrote:There are valid questions about the specifics of the translations on that. There has never been a single instance of Shueisha, Toei, etc. using the word "canon" (or a Japanese equivalent); the closest has been the Battle of Gods press release touting it as a new entry in the "official history" of the series. I'm sure it works perfectly fine in context to its original Japanese script for a casual read at an event, but the obvious issues come into play with the pedants around this issue (and let's be clear, I consider myself one of them). It's definitely the kind of slightly-awkward translation that may have some very innocent meaning behind it, but can / will be / is twisted and used to fit any given argument.
And as long as the word "canon" does not appear/come directly from Shueisha, Toei or Akira Toriyama themselves, we can hardly (and I can't stress "hardly" enough) take any claim about canonicity seriously. I can somewhat understand when those questions are made to which they are not capable of giving you the "all-expected" answer, but that just contributes to more obscurity and therefore all the valid questions remain.

This is the response I got after I had asked for the original Japanese text. We are still in square one.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Miracles wrote:Yes, canon has different word usage....It's merely what is accepted by authority as true/official story. Your example has "Official History" and the images I posted has the authentic timeline of DB's official history with the Super manga only continuing it labeled by Shueisha.
Where are Jaco, Minus and Resurrection F? Those are all part of Dragon Ball's official history and your only options for RoF are the movie, the anime, or the F manga which just steers you right back to the movie and wasn't included in any of the collected volumes.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:57 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:Where are Jaco, Minus and Resurrection F? Those are all part of Dragon Ball's official history and your only options for RoF are the movie, the anime, or the F manga which just steers you right back to the movie and wasn't included in any of the collected volumes.
The RoF movie is referenced in the Super manga. However, for those others, you have to ask Shuiesha why they don't consider them official DB continuity.

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Re: The manga is it's own thing.

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:Lol you can't have a caveat "no arguments in this thread" because almost anything can spark an argument when it comes to Dragon Ball.

It is it's own thing and entirely separate from the anime. I hate when people apply stuff from the anime to the manga and vice versa. Completely different continuities.
Agreed with everything you said here.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:02 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I certainly have other things to say, but I gotta say this before we move on: "it's" means "it is", while "its" is possessive. :)
I thought the same thing but didn't want to say it lol. Kind of glad somebody did.
shadowfox87 wrote:The "main product" argument is one of the worst arguments in support of the anime
I think the argument about it being the main product is independent of supporting one medium over the other. One being the main product does not automatically make it compare favorably to the other iteration of the story. I guess what I'm saying is that whether or not it is the main product has nothing to do with the quality.

That said, I find this "main product" argument to be kind of silly.
Miracles wrote:The manga is only the main canon product according to Shueisha/bird studios. The anime is in the backseat.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
lol you are taking this way too literally. That is obviously not the case nor was that the intention of this billboard. If we are going to be discussing a "backseat" medium it is clearly the manga. Otherwise, the movie would be based on the manga instead of being based on the anime. The anime draws the money because of it's higher popularity so naturally the manga takes a backseat especially since Dragon Ball Super was initially intended and advertised to be an anime with no mention of a manga during it's announcement.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:lol you are taking this way too literally. That is obviously not the case nor was that the intention of this billboard. If we are going to be discussing a "backseat" medium it is clearly the manga. Otherwise, the movie would be based on the manga instead of being based on the anime. The anime draws the money because of it's higher popularity so naturally the manga takes a backseat especially since Dragon Ball Super was initially intended and advertised to be an anime with no mention of a manga during it's announcement.
In a lucrative sense, anime would be more popular but that does not change the fact the Super manga is the main canon/continuity to Toriyama's original Dragonball as shown by authority.
Also, stating the movie is based on the anime is factually wrong as well. As it only stated the movie continues from the finished TV series, TOP arc. It had nothing to do with continuity. Especially since the images show the manga's TOP in the DB history which isn't even finished yet then the Broly movie images right after.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:25 pm

Miracles wrote:In a lucrative sense, anime would be more popular but that does not change the fact the Super manga is the main canon/continuity to Toriyama's original Dragonball as shown by authority.
That is most certainly not a fact. Each are their own official continuation of AT's story and each are reviewed by Toriyama. You are taking that comment too literally and extrapolating it's meaning to mean "the manga is the official continuity and the anime is not" when that is clearly not the case. You are reaching here obviously.
Also, stating the movie is based on the anime is factually wrong as well. As it only stated the movie continues from the finished TV series, TOP arc. It had nothing to do with continuity. Especially since the images show the manga's TOP in the DB history which isn't even finished yet then the Broly movie images right after.
It has already been stated Toyotaro will have his adaptation of the events. The obvious implication there is that this is necessary since the movie will cover the anime's version of the events. Going by your logic for the billboard, this would mean that this is an official statement that it is following the anime.

It is convenient how you are willing to extrapolate statements about one medium but not the other.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:In a lucrative sense, anime would be more popular but that does not change the fact the Super manga is the main canon/continuity to Toriyama's original Dragonball as shown by authority.
That is most certainly not a fact. Each are their own official continuation of AT's story and each are reviewed by Toriyama. You are taking that comment too literally and extrapolating it's meaning to mean "the manga is the official continuity and the anime is not" when that is clearly not the case. You are reaching here obviously.
Also, stating the movie is based on the anime is factually wrong as well. As it only stated the movie continues from the finished TV series, TOP arc. It had nothing to do with continuity. Especially since the images show the manga's TOP in the DB history which isn't even finished yet then the Broly movie images right after.
It has already been stated Toyotaro will have his adaptation of the events. The obvious implication there is that this is necessary since the movie will cover the anime's version of the events. Going by your logic for the billboard, this would mean that this is an official statement that it is following the anime.

It is convenient how you are willing to extrapolate statements about one medium but not the other.
You need to read more carefully. I'm not disagreeing that the movie will continue from the the anime's TOP arc as the next story. It didn't say anything about covering the anime version of events [That's your headcannon]. Neither am I denying that the anime and manga are official continuations of Toriyama's story checked by him. However, Shueisha has shown the Super manga is stamped as the main continuity of Toriyama's DB. It's right there in writing, while you have nothing but side arguments that have nothing to do with canon/continuity of Toriyama's original manga which is the Super manga.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:09 am

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:In a lucrative sense, anime would be more popular but that does not change the fact the Super manga is the main canon/continuity to Toriyama's original Dragonball as shown by authority.
That is most certainly not a fact. Each are their own official continuation of AT's story and each are reviewed by Toriyama. You are taking that comment too literally and extrapolating it's meaning to mean "the manga is the official continuity and the anime is not" when that is clearly not the case. You are reaching here obviously.
Also, stating the movie is based on the anime is factually wrong as well. As it only stated the movie continues from the finished TV series, TOP arc. It had nothing to do with continuity. Especially since the images show the manga's TOP in the DB history which isn't even finished yet then the Broly movie images right after.
It has already been stated Toyotaro will have his adaptation of the events. The obvious implication there is that this is necessary since the movie will cover the anime's version of the events. Going by your logic for the billboard, this would mean that this is an official statement that it is following the anime.

It is convenient how you are willing to extrapolate statements about one medium but not the other.
You need to read more carefully. I'm not disagreeing that the movie will continue from the the anime's TOP arc as the next story. It didn't say anything about covering the anime version of events [That's your headcannon]. Neither am I denying that the anime and manga are official continuations of Toriyama's story checked by him. However, Shueisha has shown the Super manga is stamped as the main continuity of Toriyama's DB. It's right there in writing, while you have nothing but side arguments that have nothing to do with canon/continuity of Toriyama's original manga which is the Super manga.
1. That's not quite how you use headcanon.
2. There is no way to tell whether or not the movie will be following the manga or the anime.
3. Being the sequel to Toriyama's manga doesn't mean it's the main continuity. Toriyama's manga isn't the main canon anymore. Dragon Ball Room has created a system where Dragon Ball is an expansive franchise with no one defined timeline. The timeline showed at SDCC is merely the manga timeline. It is interesting that there was no anime timeline on display though.
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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:42 am

Bergamo wrote:1. That's not quite how you use headcanon.
2. There is no way to tell whether or not the movie will be following the manga or the anime.
3. Being the sequel to Toriyama's manga doesn't mean it's the main continuity. Toriyama's manga isn't the main canon anymore. Dragon Ball Room has created a system where Dragon Ball is an expansive franchise with no one defined timeline. The timeline showed at SDCC is merely the manga timeline. It is interesting that there was no anime timeline on display though.
1. It is headcannon when you mention something the story didn't. Saying the movie is continuity to the anime when no such thing was mentioned is exactly headcannon.
2. I wasn't discussing whether the movie will be following the anime or manga nor did I state which one it's following.
3. All that in your third sentence, is headcannon also. Shueisha itself has labeled the history of DB, starting with Toriyama's manga, following with the Super manga. Nowhere was it stated that Toriyama's original isn't the main canon, lol.

This isn't hard people, just stop trying to avoid the truth with mental gymnastics and accept it.

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Re: The manga is its own thing

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:03 am

Well, i think we can agree that both mediums are their own thing. I take the manga just as serious as the anime despite the differences

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