If Super came out in Japan in the early 2000's like around 2005...would the impact have been different?

[Bergamo]

I posted this 3 weeks ago and only now I have a bunch of people replying it.....

Dude, you can't expect people to say they liked a product when they hated it. It's not about being whiny or pessimistic but having a personal opinion. I get you love Super but you still need to respect their opinions even if you don't agree with.

I don't expect people to say they liked something if they didn't. I respect people's opinions and you should respect mine. My opinion is that much of the poor reception is a direct result of how prevalent pessimists and general negative thinking is in modern society. Had it aired in the early 2000's I feel like it would have had a more positve reception.

The DBS Manga is written by Toriyama just like the anime. The draft for each chapter is personally checked by Toriyama, and there have been instances where the manga has been shown to be closer to Toriyama's vision. Yet you complain about it and call it garbage. Hypocritical much?

That's a fair point. I understand where you are coming from here, but I was more so comparing it to the production of DBZ and I feel like the DBS anime's process is more similar to DBZ than the DBS manga is to the original manga. In the original manga, there was just Toriyama doing everything whether it be drawing it or writing it. The current manga's over-arching story is by AT and Toyotaro draws it and fills in the blanks. In the DBS anime there is that extra layer of constants there because Toei animations is the other party involved other than Toriyama just as it was when DBZ was being introduced. That being said, I don't think the DBS manga is really THAT bad. I can get frustrated sometimes and there's some hyperbole in the way that I discuss it.

I just find it very hard to believe that there's an objectively large gap in quality. I just don't think that the quality is the biggest variable that has changed since DBZ has aired. I think the biggest difference in the reception is that now people re seeing it for the first time as an adult and not as a child, people are generally more pessimistic now than then, and people are biased towards the original work and just put it on a pedestal. I am baffled how you can watch both DBS and DBZ and love one and call the other garbage. But again, that is just the way I see it.

The production of DBZ and DBS still aren't even close to the same process. Toriyama wrote 100% of Z(barring filler) and many scenes were directly inspired by Toriyama drawn panels. Toei is also a very different studio than it was all those years ago. Saying that Z is extremely similar to DBS is apples to oranges.

[PFM18]

I posted this 3 weeks ago and only now I have a bunch of people replying it.....

Dude, you can't expect people to say they liked a product when they hated it. It's not about being whiny or pessimistic but having a personal opinion. I get you love Super but you still need to respect their opinions even if you don't agree with.

I don't expect people to say they liked something if they didn't. I respect people's opinions and you should respect mine. My opinion is that much of the poor reception is a direct result of how prevalent pessimists and general negative thinking is in modern society. Had it aired in the early 2000's I feel like it would have had a more positve reception.

The DBS Manga is written by Toriyama just like the anime. The draft for each chapter is personally checked by Toriyama, and there have been instances where the manga has been shown to be closer to Toriyama's vision. Yet you complain about it and call it garbage. Hypocritical much?

That's a fair point. I understand where you are coming from here, but I was more so comparing it to the production of DBZ and I feel like the DBS anime's process is more similar to DBZ than the DBS manga is to the original manga. In the original manga, there was just Toriyama doing everything whether it be drawing it or writing it. The current manga's over-arching story is by AT and Toyotaro draws it and fills in the blanks. In the DBS anime there is that extra layer of constants there because Toei animations is the other party involved other than Toriyama just as it was when DBZ was being introduced. That being said, I don't think the DBS manga is really THAT bad. I can get frustrated sometimes and there's some hyperbole in the way that I discuss it.

I just find it very hard to believe that there's an objectively large gap in quality. I just don't think that the quality is the biggest variable that has changed since DBZ has aired. I think the biggest difference in the reception is that now people re seeing it for the first time as an adult and not as a child, people are generally more pessimistic now than then, and people are biased towards the original work and just put it on a pedestal. I am baffled how you can watch both DBS and DBZ and love one and call the other garbage. But again, that is just the way I see it.

The production of DBZ and DBS still aren't even close to the same process. Toriyama wrote 100% of Z(barring filler) and many scenes were directly inspired by Toriyama drawn panels. Toei is also a very different studio than it was all those years ago. Saying that Z is extremely similar to DBS is apples to oranges.

It is animated by Toei animation and the main plot points are written by Toriyama. The only difference in the production process is that it isn't directly adapting Toriyama's manga but rather just adapting Toriyama's outlines instead.

[Bergamo]

I posted this 3 weeks ago and only now I have a bunch of people replying it.....


I don't expect people to say they liked something if they didn't. I respect people's opinions and you should respect mine. My opinion is that much of the poor reception is a direct result of how prevalent pessimists and general negative thinking is in modern society. Had it aired in the early 2000's I feel like it would have had a more positve reception.


That's a fair point. I understand where you are coming from here, but I was more so comparing it to the production of DBZ and I feel like the DBS anime's process is more similar to DBZ than the DBS manga is to the original manga. In the original manga, there was just Toriyama doing everything whether it be drawing it or writing it. The current manga's over-arching story is by AT and Toyotaro draws it and fills in the blanks. In the DBS anime there is that extra layer of constants there because Toei animations is the other party involved other than Toriyama just as it was when DBZ was being introduced. That being said, I don't think the DBS manga is really THAT bad. I can get frustrated sometimes and there's some hyperbole in the way that I discuss it.

I just find it very hard to believe that there's an objectively large gap in quality. I just don't think that the quality is the biggest variable that has changed since DBZ has aired. I think the biggest difference in the reception is that now people re seeing it for the first time as an adult and not as a child, people are generally more pessimistic now than then, and people are biased towards the original work and just put it on a pedestal. I am baffled how you can watch both DBS and DBZ and love one and call the other garbage. But again, that is just the way I see it.

The production of DBZ and DBS still aren't even close to the same process. Toriyama wrote 100% of Z(barring filler) and many scenes were directly inspired by Toriyama drawn panels. Toei is also a very different studio than it was all those years ago. Saying that Z is extremely similar to DBS is apples to oranges.

It is animated by Toei animation and the main plot points are written by Toriyama. The only difference in the production process is that it isn't directly adapting Toriyama's manga but rather just adapting Toriyama's outlines instead.

That's a huge difference.

[PFM18]

The production of DBZ and DBS still aren't even close to the same process. Toriyama wrote 100% of Z(barring filler) and many scenes were directly inspired by Toriyama drawn panels. Toei is also a very different studio than it was all those years ago. Saying that Z is extremely similar to DBS is apples to oranges.

It is animated by Toei animation and the main plot points are written by Toriyama. The only difference in the production process is that it isn't directly adapting Toriyama's manga but rather just adapting Toriyama's outlines instead.

That's a huge difference.

I mean I don't think it is that huge of a difference, and even if it is a huge difference, it is still the only difference.

[ekrolo2]

It is animated by Toei animation and the main plot points are written by Toriyama. The only difference in the production process is that it isn't directly adapting Toriyama's manga but rather just adapting Toriyama's outlines instead.

That's a huge difference.

I mean I don't think it is that huge of a difference, and even if it is a huge difference, it is still the only difference.

Well that, and general story quality taking a massive dive after the Android and Boo arcs already severely hurt it and considerably worse character designs that inherently make it an eyesore to watch. It's very telling that the best story of the new material is someone else' Toriyama touched upon and didn't write himself from scratch and the best looking material has actively told Yamamuro's designs to take a hike.

[Bergamo]

It is animated by Toei animation and the main plot points are written by Toriyama. The only difference in the production process is that it isn't directly adapting Toriyama's manga but rather just adapting Toriyama's outlines instead.

That's a huge difference.

I mean I don't think it is that huge of a difference, and even if it is a huge difference, it is still the only difference.

If it's not a huge difference, then why are the manga and anime adaptations of Toriyama's script so different?

[PFM18]

That's a huge difference.

I mean I don't think it is that huge of a difference, and even if it is a huge difference, it is still the only difference.

If it's not a huge difference, then why are the manga and anime adaptations of Toriyama's script so different?

Because Toei is involved in one and not the other or vice versa with Toyo. This isn't the difference I was referring to.

With DBZ, Toei is involved just as they are now, so that variable is controlled for. The variable of Toriyama writing the plot, Toei animating it, and Toei taking some liberties with filler or other small plot points are all constant, the only dynamic variable here is the adaptation of Toriyama's manga. Toriyama is still involved.

I find it hard to believe that this difference can account for this monumentally large difference in quality. I attribute this evaluation of a monumentally large difference in quality to the other variables involved; People watching it for the first time as an adult rather than a kid, rhetoric in general being more pessimistic now than back then, and people's tendency to put the original work on a pedestal when compared to sequels. I don't think the actual quality has changed very much, after watching DBZ shortly after watching DBS I really don't see many aspects being very different in quality, if at all IMO.

[ekrolo2]

Because Toei is involved in one and not the other or vice versa with Toyo. This isn't the difference I was referring to.

With DBZ, Toei is involved just as they are now, so that variable is controlled for. The variable of Toriyama writing the plot, Toei animating it, and Toei taking some liberties with filler or other small plot points are all constant, the only dynamic variable here is the adaptation of Toriyama's manga. Toriyama is still involved.

I find it hard to believe that this difference can account for this monumentally large difference in quality. I attribute this evaluation of a monumentally large difference in quality to the other variables involved; People watching it for the first time as an adult rather than a kid, rhetoric in general being more pessimistic now than back then, and people's tendency to put the original work on a pedestal when compared to sequels. I don't think the actual quality has changed very much, after watching DBZ shortly after watching DBS I really don't see many aspects being very different in quality, if at all IMO.

Except Toriyama's involvement isn't on the same level as before and that's a big factor to consider. A lot of Toriyama's writing decisions work because he, used to anyway, have a good ability to make random or disparate elements and plot occurrences feel natural and/or effective. He's probably one of the better flying by the seat of his pants writers at this during his prime. Now he's not really doing that, he's giving them the disparate elements with Toei and Toyotaro needing to figure out how to make them work and to say its not gracefully executed is an understatement.

Not to put Toriyama on a pedestal, he'd probably fuck it up too, the Android & Boo arcs speak for themselves among other things I can name he's more directly written, but the difference is noteworthy imo. But you are right, a lot of things people praise nowadays would never get a tenth of the support of they were released. If Batman Beyond was announced and released today, it'd be canceled within 10 episodes, maybe a season even if it looked and sounded exactly the same. Which isn't excusing Super, I still think it didn't need to exist and there's plenty of material to hold you over already but you're not wrong in saying that certain people dismiss it just because its not Z all over again.

[supersaiyanZero]

Because Toei is involved in one and not the other or vice versa with Toyo. This isn't the difference I was referring to.

With DBZ, Toei is involved just as they are now, so that variable is controlled for. The variable of Toriyama writing the plot, Toei animating it, and Toei taking some liberties with filler or other small plot points are all constant, the only dynamic variable here is the adaptation of Toriyama's manga. Toriyama is still involved.

I find it hard to believe that this difference can account for this monumentally large difference in quality. I attribute this evaluation of a monumentally large difference in quality to the other variables involved; People watching it for the first time as an adult rather than a kid, rhetoric in general being more pessimistic now than back then, and people's tendency to put the original work on a pedestal when compared to sequels. I don't think the actual quality has changed very much, after watching DBZ shortly after watching DBS I really don't see many aspects being very different in quality, if at all IMO.

Except Toriyama's involvement isn't on the same level as before and that's a big factor to consider. A lot of Toriyama's writing decisions work because he, used to anyway, have a good ability to make random or disparate elements and plot occurrences feel natural and/or effective. He's probably one of the better flying by the seat of his pants writers at this during his prime. Now he's not really doing that, he's giving them the disparate elements with Toei and Toyotaro needing to figure out how to make them work and to say its not gracefully executed is an understatement.

Not to put Toriyama on a pedestal, he'd probably fuck it up too, the Android & Boo arcs speak for themselves among other things I can name he's more directly written, but the difference is noteworthy imo. But you are right, a lot of things people praise nowadays would never get a tenth of the support of they were released. If Batman Beyond was announced and released today, it'd be canceled within 10 episodes, maybe a season even if it looked and sounded exactly the same. Which isn't excusing Super, I still think it didn't need to exist and there's plenty of material to hold you over already but you're not wrong in saying that certain people dismiss it just because its not Z all over again.

And why do you think that is? Batman Beyond is arguably better than any of the Super Hero shows out now. And no, it is not my "opinion" - the work that went into that show far eclipses anything we have now. Just like anime, western cartoons have gotten "dumber" and started catering to an audience that doesn't value storytelling as much as the previous generation. The only one that was similar in tone and production value was Young Justice, which indeed was canceled I believe but brought back for another 2 seasons.

[ekrolo2]

And why do you think that is? Batman Beyond is arguably better than any of the Super Hero shows out now. And no, it is not my "opinion" - the work that went into that show far eclipses anything we have now. Just like anime, western cartoons have gotten "dumber" and started catering to an audience that doesn't value storytelling as much as the previous generation. The only one that was similar in tone and production value was Young Justice, which indeed was canceled I believe but brought back for another 2 seasons.

Because the premise of "teenage replacement Batman who gets tutored by old, OG Batman in the cyberpunk future with Spider-Man thrown in!" is a premise that was considered pants shittingly stupid even by the production team at the time and the only made it work to see if it could. It helps that back then, there wasn't immediate Internet nerd outrage following any comic related development to make it extra harder for them.

Beware the Batman is what would happen to Batman Beyond nowadays: nerds see premise, nerds crap on-premise alone, nerds cool off and watch the show, nerds realize its good then wonder why it got canceled, not realizing that NOT supporting it in any way is what got it canceled. That might seem like a really bleak outlook on the comic book fandom but fuck that contingent, I'll give them credit for not being picky, whiny morons when they stop repeating the same thing over, and over again.

[supersaiyanZero]

And why do you think that is? Batman Beyond is arguably better than any of the Super Hero shows out now. And no, it is not my "opinion" - the work that went into that show far eclipses anything we have now. Just like anime, western cartoons have gotten "dumber" and started catering to an audience that doesn't value storytelling as much as the previous generation. The only one that was similar in tone and production value was Young Justice, which indeed was canceled I believe but brought back for another 2 seasons.

Because the premise of "teenage replacement Batman who gets tutored by old, OG Batman in the cyberpunk future with Spider-Man thrown in!" is a premise that was considered pants shittingly stupid even by the production team at the time and the only made it work to see if it could. It helps that back then, there wasn't immediate Internet nerd outrage following any comic related development to make it extra harder for them.

Beware the Batman is what would happen to Batman Beyond nowadays: nerds see premise, nerds crap on-premise alone, nerds cool off and watch the show, nerds realize its good then wonder why it got canceled, not realizing that NOT supporting it in any way is what got it canceled. That might seem like a really bleak outlook on the comic book fandom but fuck that contingent, I'll give them credit for not being picky, whiny morons when they stop repeating the same thing over, and over again.

I sincerely doubt it has to do with nerds raging and nitpicking over the premise. And I also doubt that they made the Batman Beyond show just to "if it could work." I also have no doubt that any Batman fan rolled their eyes once it was announced. But anbody with half a brain could see that even in the first episode they had a fleshed out character and an expanded universe set within the already very successful Tim Robbins universe at the time. The first episode alone got me hooked, and for them do with they did with a triple AAA title like Batman and succeed is a testament to the amount of work put in that show. In comparison, you had some lame Spider-Man show that came out (after the ridiculously good amazing spider-man series) that featured the same premise - futuristic, technocratic city with a new suit and new spins on old villains. Batman Beyond was executed on a much higher level and that's why it succeeded.

Young Justice is the best example we have of a more mature, fleshed out story being told to an audience that values "trendy" gags and comedic relief over really good storytelling. The nerd rage might be real, but it won't stop a good story from being recognized. Remember when Heath Ledger was cast as the Joker? It was an absolute shit show, but once the movie was out it quickly became the best Super Hero film ever made.

[ekrolo2]

I sincerely doubt it has to do with nerds raging and nitpicking over the premise. And I also doubt that they made the Batman Beyond show just to "if it could work." I also have no doubt that any Batman fan rolled their eyes once it was announced. But anbody with half a brain could see that even in the first episode they had a fleshed out character and an expanded universe set within the already very successful Tim Robbins universe at the time. The first episode alone got me hooked, and for them do with they did with a triple AAA title like Batman and succeed is a testament to the amount of work put in that show. In comparison, you had some lame Spider-Man show that came out (after the ridiculously good amazing spider-man series) that featured the same premise - futuristic, technocratic city with a new suit and new spins on old villains. Batman Beyond was executed on a much higher level and that's why it succeeded.

Young Justice is the best example we have of a more mature, fleshed out story being told to an audience that values "trendy" gags and comedic relief over really good storytelling. The nerd rage might be real, but it won't stop a good story from being recognized. Remember when Heath Ledger was cast as the Joker? It was an absolute shit show, but once the movie was out it quickly became the best Super Hero film ever made.

Yes, they did make Batman Beyond to see if it could work. Warner Brothers told them to make a Batman series set in the future with a teenaged Batman to sell merchandise, that is an executive edict from on high that almost made them quit working on DC shows entirely until they decided to actually make it work. Which they did. Wouldn't stop it from getting crapped on nowadays where comic book culture pretty much attacks anything outside the status quo, regardless if its good or not by default. Batman Beyond is a risky venture that really shouldn't work but it does and part of that is that its a weird experiment lots of people grew up on, meaning the weirdness isn't much of a factor for them anymore.

I don't know why Young Justice matters in a discussion about nerd culture being detrimental to products: nerds flocked to that show but nobody bought the merchandise. It's in no way similar to what we're talking about, Beware the Batman absolutely is though, a good show that got shat on by the nerd outrage only for them to chill out, go back to it and realize that yes, they were morons. Doesn't stop them from still doing it though.

[ShadowBardock89]

I think the saying "Money does not talk, it screams" applies to the situation.
The early 2000s was midpoint between post-Dragon Ball Burnout and Dragon Ball Resuscitation (through video games, Dragon Box, etc.).
While there were probably some people thinking of making some sort of Dragon Ball-related series, it seems the money did not start to be invested in the idea until after 2008.
For everything to start earlier, there had to be an effort (a risky one at that) to jump start the franchise domestically at a grand scale and the willingness to see it through despite the burnout from Dragon Ball GT.

[Green_Goblin]

Back in those days even Garlic Jr. was "acceptable" by the fandom and that's why he was referred to in Legacy of Goku II, IF Super was made back then I can see the odds of him being featured there as quite possible.