Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

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Regarder
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Regarder » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:07 am

Otherwise the strength gap is so profoundly massive that Roshi's movements to Jiren should have appeared as though he were standing still.
So does UI work just by shortcutting around reflexes, or does it work by the body actually moving itself much faster than you normally can?

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Lionel » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:13 am

Ultra Instinct is technically defined by the body's ability to autonomously move without the need for cognitive thought initiating your movements. In which case, I suppose it would constitute as reflexive movement. Reflexive in what way though? I can only imagine that Roshi's body might have somehow been several steps ahead of Jiren's anticipated choreographic manoeuvring. Experience and finely attuned physiological acuity to the nuances of combat are how I imagine he's able to do it. It begs the question of why we didn't see such capability in previous fights featuring Roshi like Tenshinhan or Daimou. The strength related gaps there would have been minute by comparison to what Roshi pitted himself against in Jiren.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:15 am

Even if your reactions were literally instant you still wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet at close range simply because your body doesn't have the capability.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Lionel » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:11 am

Avoiding something like a bullet would be one part neuronal condunction and another part muscle fibre. You would have to somehow enhance your mylen sheath needed for neuronal movement to the point that it makes a penaeid shrimp's impulses look slow by comparison -- keeping in mind that there are both natural and supplemental ways to increase mylen -- while also enhancing the muscular capacity of your body a good bit. Some type of hyper adrenalised state could take away the inhibitors for muscle fibre usage. Both of those factors would need to somehow overlap. Plus the bullet would likely have to be from a relatively slow handgun.

It sounds fantastical but those are the best odds I can think of for having even a remote chance of accomplishing such an implausible feat. The odds of accomplishing something like that are incredibly low though. Roshi doesn't have that kind of explainable justification for his feats.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:56 am

Lionel wrote:Avoiding something like a bullet would be one part neuronal condunction and another part muscle fibre. You would have to somehow enhance your mylen sheath needed for neuronal movement to the point that it makes a penaeid shrimp's impulses look slow by comparison -- keeping in mind that there are both natural and supplemental ways to increase mylen -- while also enhancing the muscular capacity of your body a good bit. Some type of hyper adrenalised state could take away the inhibitors for muscle fibre usage. Both of those factors would need to somehow overlap. Plus the bullet would likely have to be from a relatively slow handgun.

It sounds fantastical but those are the best odds I can think of for having even a remote chance of accomplishing such an implausible feat. The odds of accomplishing something like that are incredibly low though. Roshi doesn't have that kind of explainable justification for his feats.
It's still utterly implausible, as you said. Even completely eliminating reaction time you'd have to move several times faster than any human ever has to dodge a bullet fired within punching distance of you.

Not only is the gap between Roshi and Jiren far greater than that, Roshi also manages to dodge not just one or two punches but an entire flurry from Jiren, it gets to the point where Jiren is visibly frustrated trying to hit him.

In the very next chapter there's some bullshit about Jiren not having wasted movements too, so Toyo's clearly intending to portray him as a skilled fighter. That being the case, the excuse that he held back too much doesn't hold water considering just how long he kept flailing and missing.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:22 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Even if your reactions were literally instant you still wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet at close range simply because your body doesn't have the capability.
Even if you trained at martial arts your entire life, you still couldn't shoot lasers.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 pm

Bergamo wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Even if your reactions were literally instant you still wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet at close range simply because your body doesn't have the capability.
Even if you trained at martial arts your entire life, you still couldn't shoot lasers.
But in DB it's been established that that's a thing, unlike this.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Kanassa » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:12 pm

Bergamo wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Even if your reactions were literally instant you still wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet at close range simply because your body doesn't have the capability.
Even if you trained at martial arts your entire life, you still couldn't shoot lasers.
Your false equivalence doesn't help your point.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:31 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Even if your reactions were literally instant you still wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet at close range simply because your body doesn't have the capability.
Even if you trained at martial arts your entire life, you still couldn't shoot lasers.
Your false equivalence doesn't help your point.
How is it false equivalence. These characters can fly across a planet in a split second, so do you really think that moving without thinking would realistically help them in any way? The explanation for UI is just an excuse for, "Goku gets auto-dodge."
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Saturnine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:42 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Even if you trained at martial arts your entire life, you still couldn't shoot lasers.
Your false equivalence doesn't help your point.
How is it false equivalence. These characters can fly across a planet in a split second, so do you really think that moving without thinking would realistically help them in any way? The explanation for UI is just an excuse for, "Goku gets auto-dodge."
UI was portrayed as a breakpoint in capabilities that only really counts at a certain level of speed. When the character is so fast that the speed of their thoughts is holding back the speed of their movements (the speed of electrons traveling around the nervous system, which if I'm not mistaken, is around the speed of light), then UI provides a solution to that and a gateway to even greater speed. That was the whole point of it. That's why Roshi having it or a form of it was just another demonstration of lack of understanding on Toyotaro's part.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:44 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Kanassa wrote: Your false equivalence doesn't help your point.
How is it false equivalence. These characters can fly across a planet in a split second, so do you really think that moving without thinking would realistically help them in any way? The explanation for UI is just an excuse for, "Goku gets auto-dodge."
UI was portrayed as a breakpoint in capabilities that only really counts at a certain level of speed. When the character is so fast that the speed of their thoughts is holding back the speed of their movements (the speed of electrons traveling around the nervous system, which if I'm not mistaken, is around the speed of light), then UI provides a solution to that and a gateway to even greater speed. That was the whole point of it. That's why Roshi having it or a form of it was just another demonstration of lack of understanding on Toyotaro's part.
Roshi's version of UI is purely movement without wasted motion. It's UI at a basic level, and it's closer to what Korrin taught than what Whis taught.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Saturnine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:59 pm

Bergamo wrote: Roshi's version of UI is purely movement without wasted motion. It's UI at a basic level, and it's closer to what Korrin taught than what Whis taught.
So yeah, it shouldn't do him any good against someone like Jiren.

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