Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:02 am

prince212 wrote:Image
What is the point of this?
You posted this with zero context, and I'm just kind of confused.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:15 am

There was never a precedent of endangering the planet simply by fighting on it - you specifically need to fire a ki blast or beam directly at it to destroy it. Suggesting that people are holding back for fear of destroying the planet would pretty much make stuff like SSj3 moot in Z.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by prince212 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:18 am

JazzMazz wrote:
prince212 wrote:Image
What is the point of this?
You posted this with zero context, and I'm just kind of confused.
Sorry I couldn’t finished . The point was making this comparison with goku being scratched by the bullet to explain that power is not everything on battle, and other factors like concentration, technique, surprise etc add some possibilities for the weaker one to at least being able to dodge a couple of punches
Image
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by HipMasterDan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:01 am

reecehoward wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
reecehoward wrote: People do bring up things like this, but it's largely ignored by those defending this chapter. I've learned and accepted that with this chapter being praised for it's "brilliance" and "bEiNg BeTtEr tHaN AnIMe", that anything goes for the hardcore manga fans as long as it's there and because Toyotaro wrote it. So while many have gone on record with how Roshi was never the person we got in this chapter, people just eat it up as If Roshi wasn't THAT dude who taught Goku and Krillin that fighting was about power.

What's even more...odd is that we are supposed to be impressed by Roshi while at the same time treat it like it's not a big deal because Jiren was holding back to less than .01% of his power. That's how bad the writing is for the entire thing. You literally can't tell if we are supposed to be in awe of Roshi or his "message".
1. Alternating caps isn't an argument. Don't assume that I will defend the manga to the death just because I don't go out of my way to bash this one particular story flaw.
2. Roshi was all about power huh? Then why does he show off the most unique techniques out of any fighter in Dragon Ball during his fight in the 21st Budokai? It seems like you are purposefully distorting Master Roshi's character.
3. You're supposed to be kind of impressed. Whis says that Master Roshi's movement is impressive for a mere human but not on the level of the gods. It's right there in the chapter.
My comment was extremely generalized, it definitely wasn't aimed at you. I see the same things in nearly any forum or comment section in regards to the DBS manga. The fact that you felt that it was a personal attack towards you says more about you than myself.

Reread what I said: Roshi TAUGHT Goku and Krillin that fighting was about power. I never said that he fought that way. It's highly hypocritical for him to bash Goku for the very things he actually taught him. He had the audacity to blame that on Vegeta and Frieza, when that was how HE trained Goku.lol The fact that anyone can sit there with a straight face and say, "it's fine" or "it makes sense" when it doesn't at all in the context of Dragonball's internal logic OR the history of the characters involved is absolutely beyond me.
"One does not study martial arts in order to win a fight or have girls say 'Ooo, you're so strong!!' One masters those arts for health in mind and body, for the ability to live one's life as courageously, uniuqly, and energetically as one wishes."

-Roshi (Chapter 30, Dragon Ball)

That doesn't sound like he taught him about power alone. And Goku not understanding what that means which is the panel right under it tells me that Goku didn't listen to what his master had taught him.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:01 am

Ultimately its bad because it's a thing. Meaning that the writers even had the strongest big baddie go up against someone like Roshi, and for Roshi for even a couple of seconds to fair well, for whatever reason, is just upside down.

It's like asking " Can someone explain to me why dipping my scrotum in a blender that's turned on is bad?" Those two things should never "mix," and always is bad.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:40 am

prince212 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
prince212 wrote:Image
What is the point of this?
You posted this with zero context, and I'm just kind of confused.
Sorry I couldn’t finished . The point was making this comparison with goku being scratched by the bullet to explain that power is not everything on battle, and other factors like concentration, technique, surprise etc add some possibilities for the weaker one to at least being able to dodge a couple of punches
Image
Yes, concentration is important and surprise attacks have been shown to consistently be effective against stronger opponents.

However, I don't think that necessarily applies that well to Roshi vs Jiren, for the obvious reason that Jiren saw Roshi attack from a mile away, and while taking someone by surprise may allow you to land a few good hits against a stronger opponent, it sure as hell isn't going to somehow give you miraculous plot induced dodging abilities, like it did for Roshi.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:42 am

JazzMazz wrote:
prince212 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: What is the point of this?
You posted this with zero context, and I'm just kind of confused.
Sorry I couldn’t finished . The point was making this comparison with goku being scratched by the bullet to explain that power is not everything on battle, and other factors like concentration, technique, surprise etc add some possibilities for the weaker one to at least being able to dodge a couple of punches
Image
Yes, concentration is important and surprise attacks have been shown to consistently be effective against stronger opponents.

However, I don't think that necessarily applies that well to Roshi vs Jiren, for the obvious reason that Jiren saw Roshi attack from a mile away, and while taking someone by surprise may allow you to land a few good hits against a stronger opponent, it sure as hell isn't going to somehow give you miraculous plot induced dodging abilities, like it did for Roshi.
Roshi doesn't have dodging powers because he caught Jiren off guard. It sounds like you're complaining about something that's not there.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by prince212 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:52 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
prince212 wrote: The point was making this comparison with goku being scratched by the bullet to explain that power is not everything on battle, and other factors like concentration, technique, surprise etc add some possibilities for the weaker one to at least being able to dodge a couple of punches
Yes, concentration is important and surprise attacks have been shown to consistently be effective against stronger opponents.

However, I don't think that necessarily applies that well to Roshi vs Jiren, for the obvious reason that Jiren saw Roshi attack from a mile away, and while taking someone by surprise may allow you to land a few good hits against a stronger opponent, it sure as hell isn't going to somehow give you miraculous plot induced dodging abilities, like it did for Roshi.
Well the surprise factor in this case is not about seeing the attack coming, it’s about how a weak looking guy like roshi can have those far cry ultra instinct movements , it was a surprise for jiren , until he focus his eyes and get more serious, a second later ... Another guy made the same perception mistake , that is not seeing what lies underneath power
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:16 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Despite being brought up a bit, I think no one has ever really effectively argued against that there is literally no real in story reason why Roshi, who wasn't even worthy enough as a martial artist to face and learn from the god of earth, and has been retired for 20 years, is somehow capable of movement more advanced than any Goku ever demonstrated, and advanced enough to impress even the gods of the universe, even though Roshi had never previously demonstrated movement that advanced before.

Am I supposed to believe that the gods of the universe would be super impressed by Kami's training and combat skills?
Chapter: 32, P7.1-3
Kame-sennin:
“I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, fists, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

Dragonball Super: Chapter: 39, P28.
Kame-sennin:
"We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves."

You are suppose to believe the same god [Karin] who taught Roshi the same principles, similar to UI. Which Roshi stressed to Goku and Krillin about mastering oneself. Is a reason for him to be able to demonstrate such skill.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:36 am

Miracles wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Despite being brought up a bit, I think no one has ever really effectively argued against that there is literally no real in story reason why Roshi, who wasn't even worthy enough as a martial artist to face and learn from the god of earth, and has been retired for 20 years, is somehow capable of movement more advanced than any Goku ever demonstrated, and advanced enough to impress even the gods of the universe, even though Roshi had never previously demonstrated movement that advanced before.

Am I supposed to believe that the gods of the universe would be super impressed by Kami's training and combat skills?
Chapter: 32, P7.1-3
Kame-sennin:
“I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, fists, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

Dragonball Super: Chapter: 39, P28.
Kame-sennin:
"We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves."

You are suppose to believe the same god [Karin] who taught Roshi the same principles, similar to UI. Which Roshi stressed to Goku and Krillin about mastering oneself. Is a reason for him to be able to demonstrate such skill.
Sorry for taking a while to get back you about this, but this was something that was worth responding to.

When Roshi was referring to the toughening of the mind, he was referring to the fact he gave them a basic education. That's literally it.

Also, what is the point of highlighting what you have? I mean, yes, its fairly obvious, "not fighting to win", is literally Goku's entire shtick, and has been bought up on several occassions, even after the fact. That was the entire point of Vegeta's monologue about Goku in the Buu arc. Goku was actively applying that philosphy. My question is, what does that prove?

Saying Karin taught him something doesn't explain anything. Literally nearly every character in the series got taught by Karin, or hell, several masters with movement and principles far more advanced than Karin's, and we're supposed to believe that Roshi, whose entire character arc was that the new generation was leagues ahead of him, somehow achieved a level of movement far greater than any of them ever achieved, because he trained with an inferior master than the ones our main cast had trained under?

I don't think I should need to explain why thats absolutely ridiculous and doesn't justify Roshi's plot power last chapter.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:48 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Despite being brought up a bit, I think no one has ever really effectively argued against that there is literally no real in story reason why Roshi, who wasn't even worthy enough as a martial artist to face and learn from the god of earth, and has been retired for 20 years, is somehow capable of movement more advanced than any Goku ever demonstrated, and advanced enough to impress even the gods of the universe, even though Roshi had never previously demonstrated movement that advanced before.

Am I supposed to believe that the gods of the universe would be super impressed by Kami's training and combat skills?
Chapter: 32, P7.1-3
Kame-sennin:
“I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, fists, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

Dragonball Super: Chapter: 39, P28.
Kame-sennin:
"We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves."

You are suppose to believe the same god [Karin] who taught Roshi the same principles, similar to UI. Which Roshi stressed to Goku and Krillin about mastering oneself. Is a reason for him to be able to demonstrate such skill.
Sorry for taking a while to get back you about this, but this was something that was worth responding to.

When Roshi was referring to the toughening of the mind, he was referring to the fact he gave them a basic education. That's literally it.

Also, what is the point of highlighting what you have? I mean, yes, its fairly obvious, "not fighting to win", is literally Goku's entire shtick, and has been bought up on several occassions, even after the fact. That was the entire point of Vegeta's monologue about Goku in the Buu arc. Goku was actively applying that philosphy. My question is, what does that prove?

Saying Karin taught him something doesn't explain anything. Literally nearly every character in the series got taught by Karin, or hell, several masters with movement and principles far more advanced than Karin's, and we're supposed to believe that Roshi, whose entire character arc was that the new generation was leagues ahead of him, somehow achieved a level of movement far greater than any of them ever achieved, because he trained with an inferior master than the ones our main cast had trained under?

I don't think I should need to explain why thats absolutely ridiculous and doesn't justify Roshi's plot power last chapter.
Roshi's movement isn't as good as you make it sound.

1. He started slowing down after only using fake UI for a few seconds.
2. There is no reason to believe this technique could actually ever change the outcome of a battle.

Saying Roshi's movement is leagues ahead of Goku's is like saying that Roshi is better than Frieza because Frieza can only stun his opponent for a short while, whereas Roshi can completely incapacitate his enemy using the Sleepy Boy technique.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:59 am

Bergamo wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote: Chapter: 32, P7.1-3
Kame-sennin:
“I have practically nothing to teach you that could be called ‘kenpou’. [ ] All the basics of the Kame-sen School of martial arts has been included in the training which you’ve been doing every day these 7 months. It seems you haven’t realized it, but your eyes, fists, legs, your entire body, and even your mind have been toughened up. ‘Kenpou’ is nothing more than putting that into practice. You don’t strive in the martial arts to win, but rather to not lose to yourself. For that purpose, go study kenpou on your own, thinking on your own how to utilize the basics which you have learned.”

Dragonball Super: Chapter: 39, P28.
Kame-sennin:
"We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves."

You are suppose to believe the same god [Karin] who taught Roshi the same principles, similar to UI. Which Roshi stressed to Goku and Krillin about mastering oneself. Is a reason for him to be able to demonstrate such skill.
Sorry for taking a while to get back you about this, but this was something that was worth responding to.

When Roshi was referring to the toughening of the mind, he was referring to the fact he gave them a basic education. That's literally it.

Also, what is the point of highlighting what you have? I mean, yes, its fairly obvious, "not fighting to win", is literally Goku's entire shtick, and has been bought up on several occassions, even after the fact. That was the entire point of Vegeta's monologue about Goku in the Buu arc. Goku was actively applying that philosphy. My question is, what does that prove?

Saying Karin taught him something doesn't explain anything. Literally nearly every character in the series got taught by Karin, or hell, several masters with movement and principles far more advanced than Karin's, and we're supposed to believe that Roshi, whose entire character arc was that the new generation was leagues ahead of him, somehow achieved a level of movement far greater than any of them ever achieved, because he trained with an inferior master than the ones our main cast had trained under?

I don't think I should need to explain why thats absolutely ridiculous and doesn't justify Roshi's plot power last chapter.
Roshi's movement isn't as good as you make it sound.

1. He started slowing down after only using fake UI for a few seconds.
2. There is no reason to believe this technique could actually ever change the outcome of a battle.

Saying Roshi's movement is leagues ahead of Goku's is like saying that Roshi is better than Frieza because Frieza can only stun his opponent for a short while, whereas Roshi can completely incapacitate his enemy using the Sleepy Boy technique.
1. He shouldn't have had it at all, much less for a few seconds.
2.Then what's the point of having him do well against Jiren using it?

I'm saying Roshi's movement is better than Goku's, because he was actually able to dodge some of Jiren's punches and actually dodge and weave around mid-combat, a feat Goku, and pretty much none of the fighters in the tournament, have done.

I don't see how thats a false comparison.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:26 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Sorry for taking a while to get back you about this, but this was something that was worth responding to.

When Roshi was referring to the toughening of the mind, he was referring to the fact he gave them a basic education. That's literally it.

Also, what is the point of highlighting what you have? I mean, yes, its fairly obvious, "not fighting to win", is literally Goku's entire shtick, and has been bought up on several occassions, even after the fact. That was the entire point of Vegeta's monologue about Goku in the Buu arc. Goku was actively applying that philosphy. My question is, what does that prove?

Saying Karin taught him something doesn't explain anything. Literally nearly every character in the series got taught by Karin, or hell, several masters with movement and principles far more advanced than Karin's, and we're supposed to believe that Roshi, whose entire character arc was that the new generation was leagues ahead of him, somehow achieved a level of movement far greater than any of them ever achieved, because he trained with an inferior master than the ones our main cast had trained under?

I don't think I should need to explain why thats absolutely ridiculous and doesn't justify Roshi's plot power last chapter.
Roshi's movement isn't as good as you make it sound.

1. He started slowing down after only using fake UI for a few seconds.
2. There is no reason to believe this technique could actually ever change the outcome of a battle.

Saying Roshi's movement is leagues ahead of Goku's is like saying that Roshi is better than Frieza because Frieza can only stun his opponent for a short while, whereas Roshi can completely incapacitate his enemy using the Sleepy Boy technique.
1. He shouldn't have had it at all, much less for a few seconds.
2.Then what's the point of having him do well against Jiren using it?

I'm saying Roshi's movement is better than Goku's, because he was actually able to dodge some of Jiren's punches and actually dodge and weave around mid-combat, a feat Goku, and pretty much none of the fighters in the tournament, have done.

I don't see how thats a false comparison.
Roshi never planned on even scratching Jiren, but he inspired Goku and allowed Goku to get Ultra Instinct Omen. Roshi's movement is better than Goku's, but he can't keep it up for very long, so it's not as if he surpassed Goku.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:07 pm

Bergamo wrote:Roshi's movement is better than Goku's.
This should never be true.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:12 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Roshi's movement is better than Goku's.
This should never be true.
Yeah, but should the bad parts of the scene really prevent you from enjoying the good part?
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:31 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Roshi's movement is better than Goku's.
This should never be true.
Yeah, but should the bad parts of the scene really prevent you from enjoying the good part?
What's the good part? To make Roshi look good? I guess, but that could be achieved in plenty of other ways whilst keeping consistency with the power scale and his
(and Goku's) character arc.

You don't even need to have Roshi fight to make him have a memorable moment.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote: This should never be true.
Yeah, but should the bad parts of the scene really prevent you from enjoying the good part?
What's the good part? To make Roshi look good? I guess, but that could be achieved in plenty of other ways whilst keeping consistency with the power scale and his
(and Goku's) character arc.

You don't even need to have Roshi fight to make him have a memorable moment.
Having Roshi enlighten Goku to the fact that he needs to stop getting so caught up in Jiren's power and return to the basics was a good moment. Toyotaro is trying to give UI it's own flavor rather than make it desperation transformation #5.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:15 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Yeah, but should the bad parts of the scene really prevent you from enjoying the good part?
What's the good part? To make Roshi look good? I guess, but that could be achieved in plenty of other ways whilst keeping consistency with the power scale and his
(and Goku's) character arc.

You don't even need to have Roshi fight to make him have a memorable moment.
Having Roshi enlighten Goku to the fact that he needs to stop getting so caught up in Jiren's power and return to the basics was a good moment. Toyotaro is trying to give UI it's own flavor rather than make it desperation transformation #5.
It's not a good moment when Goku has never been someone who only thinks about power since his training with Kami. He constantly lectures his opponents that power isn't everything. A dumb fighter only cares about power, Goku isn't a dumb fighter.

UI conceptually is already a unique transformation. Toyotaro could have found a better way to trigger it than sacrifice everything Goku has stood for to achieve it. Even the excuse of "he was just caught in the moment and forgot about the basics for a moment" doesn't work because that would mean Goku was already doing everything fine before the Jiren fight, so why did he only go UI now? What was his big revelation? That he shouldn't focus on power only? But is that a flaw Goku always had or is it something that came with time as he got more powerful? Because the former is wrong and the latter would need more explanation and build-up than what was given to explain why he arbitrarily got UI now.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote: What's the good part? To make Roshi look good? I guess, but that could be achieved in plenty of other ways whilst keeping consistency with the power scale and his
(and Goku's) character arc.

You don't even need to have Roshi fight to make him have a memorable moment.
Having Roshi enlighten Goku to the fact that he needs to stop getting so caught up in Jiren's power and return to the basics was a good moment. Toyotaro is trying to give UI it's own flavor rather than make it desperation transformation #5.
It's not a good moment when Goku has never been someone who only thinks about power since his training with Kami. He constantly lectures his opponents that power isn't everything. A dumb fighter only cares about power, Goku isn't a dumb fighter.

UI conceptually is already a unique transformation. Toyotaro could have found a better way to trigger it than sacrifice everything Goku has stood for to achieve it. Even the excuse of "he was just caught in the moment and forgot about the basics for a moment" doesn't work because that would mean Goku was already doing everything fine before the Jiren fight, so why did he only go UI now? What was his big revelation? That he shouldn't focus on power only? But is that a flaw Goku always had or is it something that came with time as he got more powerful? Because the former is wrong and the latter would need more explanation and build-up than what was given to explain why he arbitrarily got UI now.
It's not that Goku didn't know basic martial arts, he had just never connected it to the concept of ultra instinct.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Lionel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:39 pm

Power doesn't have to be everything provided the person in question has the tools, resources and discipline needed to circumvent a person's ki size. Something like Akkuman's Devilmite Beam or Hit's pressure point exploitation are two examples that come to mind of such phenomenon. What Roshi did certainly stretches the limits of believability in my opinion. To avoid someone like Jiren's attacks would have required a level of preternatural intuition that he's anticipating the trajectory of his opponent's attacks before they mentally conceive of them in the first place. Otherwise the strength gap is so profoundly massive that Roshi's movements to Jiren should have appeared as though he were standing still.

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