Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

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nato25
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Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by nato25 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:52 am

This might be easier to say in hindsight than it was at the time of production, but they really didn't give Beerus (and in relation to that Goku) and room to grow in regards to their power. Beerus is a God of Destruction that easily dominates Goku early on in BoG and the Super series but by the end of the movie Beerus seems to have a decent at best edge over Goku in terms of power.

Then Goku gets SSB and we're still supposed to believe he couldn't beat Beerus even though he was pretty close with his first time fighting as a SSG. That doesn't speak well for either the power increase or Blue or Beerus' own strength.

Then Goku gets UI. At this point I find it very hard to believe Goku wouldn't beat Beerus in this form but I feel that's what the series still wants me to believe. Obviously this is a common problem thats never been written with foresight in mind, but it kind of sucks to have this power to measure against that doesn't really make any sense after Beerus' initial appearance.

Thoughts?

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:26 am

I think the anime bringing kaioken into the mix is what made the strength gap so big.
going by the manga I would say it would go something like
SSG Goku: 1
SSB Goku: 2
MSSB Goku: 5
Beerus: 10
That way SSG and SSB would still be relevant to Beerus, but still not match for him, and UI could still be below him like a 9 or something, but Jiren was stated to be above Belmod who should at least be close to Beerus, so Jiren would be a 11 imo, and I assume UI Goku is going to beat Jiren, and it was stated Beerus didn't master UI yet, so mastered UI would be a 11-12.

I would say the anime version is something like this
SSG Goku: 1
SSB Goku: 5
SSB x20 Goku: 100
UI omen Goku: 250
Beerus: 300-400
MUI Goku: 500

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:18 am

This whole mess of Beerus being light years stronger than Goku honestly hurts BAD his character, because of how annoying and frustrating it is.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Xeztin » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:15 am

I usually stick with the manga with power gaps and it was implied SSJB Vegito was higher than Beerus. So in my opinion, Belmond:1 Beerus 2: UI: 4 (when he stays in it) Jiren 6 and MUI 7

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:28 am

How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Xeztin » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:46 am

Mister_Popo wrote:How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.
One line could make it make sense if they would say something like BoG lit a fire under Beerus and he has trained and is like 2-3x stronger than he was in BoG. But from what we’ve seen of Beerus sleeping and what not, that would be as unbeliveable as kuririn beating Jiren fair and sqaure. Honestly after the ToP Beerus should be more active and training to get stronger than Sleeping but I’d say he is back to his old habbits. Omni-King could decided on somthing like the ToP any time any day.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:51 am

To be fair, there's been no indication that Ultra Instinct couldn't beat Beerus. We never got the chance to find out if it could, and Goku lost it by the end. But until we get further notice, I feel fairly comfortable in assuming Beerus was surpassed with the introduction of Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

Clearly they like the dynamic of Beerus being ahead of Goku. Super Saiyan God let Goku give him a good fight, and later powerups like Blue and Kaioken were much of a muchness because Beerus was sidelined during the stories they were introduced in.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by nato25 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:22 am

Xeztin wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.
One line could make it make sense if they would say something like BoG lit a fire under Beerus and he has trained and is like 2-3x stronger than he was in BoG. But from what we’ve seen of Beerus sleeping and what not, that would be as unbeliveable as kuririn beating Jiren fair and sqaure. Honestly after the ToP Beerus should be more active and training to get stronger than Sleeping but I’d say he is back to his old habbits. Omni-King could decided on somthing like the ToP any time any day.
I completely agree. All we ever see is Beerus lounging around relaxing, I can't recall a single training scene he goes through during Super. Seeing him train to stay ahead would have been awesome because I feel like it would be believable that Beerus would 'gain' more than training than Goku, thus allowing him to stay ahead without much thought.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by CTAkuma » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:54 pm

I don't understand this fan demand that Beerus NEEDS to be stronger than Goku for his character to be interesting, if anything him being weaker would alow him to be more on the action and not be a killer of stakes and all tension.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Meshack » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:20 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.
Beerus nor Whis said he used 1%

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Meshack » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:28 pm

Beerus is fine the way he is. He doesn't need to get stronger. I mean, Jiren is stronger than Belmod and Belmod is the God of Destruction but he doesn't seem bothered by his strength. Gokou will be Beerus's Jiren.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:51 pm

Meshack wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.
Beerus nor Whis said he used 1%
It's just simple math. Beerus is stronger than ToP KKx20 SSB Goku. That means SSB Goku during the ToP is less than 5% Beerus. BoG SSG Goku is clearly more than 5x weaker than ToP SSB Goku. Hense Beeruse uses less than 1% of his power to beat SSG Goku in the anime.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by nato25 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:38 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Meshack wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:How it was in the movie, made sense: Beerus didn't go all out and only used 70 % of his power.
Thereafter they took the story of BOG and stacked the astronomical power increases of Super on top of that.
Beerus only used less than 1 % of his power during Super BOG arc.
Where was Beerus challenge if he had to suppress his power by that much during his fight with Goku?
Not much difference between SSJ3 and SSJG from his perspective.
The massive power-ups, evoked by Kaioken and UI, made the gap way too big, for the story of BOG to still make sense.
Beerus nor Whis said he used 1%
It's just simple math. Beerus is stronger than ToP KKx20 SSB Goku. That means SSB Goku during the ToP is less than 5% Beerus. BoG SSG Goku is clearly more than 5x weaker than ToP SSB Goku. Hense Beeruse uses less than 1% of his power to beat SSG Goku in the anime.
Yeah sorry man this isnt the saiyan saga and it doesnt work like that anymore and hasnt for a long time.

I'm not concerned over power levels and definitely dont think he has to be stronger than goku to be interest. Beerus and whis were the best things to happen to dragon ball since before GT.

My point is that evidence from BoG and the series shows Beerus is a lot weaker than the facade they put up all series where beerus is strongest only second to those above or equal to him in the god hierarchy. They have him sweating at the end whenever Goku achieves a new power (kaioken or ui) and then go back to him being all cool and confident hed beat Goku easy.

I just dont like that contradiction and it would be much less of a facade if they gave beerus room to grow. I rather the 70% thing was never spoken.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:00 pm

nato25 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Meshack wrote: Beerus nor Whis said he used 1%
It's just simple math. Beerus is stronger than ToP KKx20 SSB Goku. That means SSB Goku during the ToP is less than 5% Beerus. BoG SSG Goku is clearly more than 5x weaker than ToP SSB Goku. Hense Beeruse uses less than 1% of his power to beat SSG Goku in the anime.
Yeah sorry man this isnt the saiyan saga and it doesnt work like that anymore and hasnt for a long time.

I'm not concerned over power levels and definitely dont think he has to be stronger than goku to be interest. Beerus and whis were the best things to happen to dragon ball since before GT.

My point is that evidence from BoG and the series shows Beerus is a lot weaker than the facade they put up all series where beerus is strongest only second to those above or equal to him in the god hierarchy. They have him sweating at the end whenever Goku achieves a new power (kaioken or ui) and then go back to him being all cool and confident hed beat Goku easy.

I just dont like that contradiction and it would be much less of a facade if they gave beerus room to grow. I rather the 70% thing was never spoken.


Beerus is not a Saiyan. The power he has, although he is lazy, he has acquired through thousands and thousands of years of practice, while Goku and Vegeta have only begon to discover divine power. It would be somehow strange if Beerus would suddenly be able to ten- or twinty-fold his power, with a few years of supplementary practice, which are nothing in comparison to those thousands and thousands of years before the events of BOG. I would rather think, what he has at the end of TOP, a big part of it or all of it he probably already had during BOG.
We can pose ourself the question 'is it really bothersome'?

In a sense it really makes the events during BOG rather unbelievable. On the other hand. I kinda like the tension this brings to the show ... where is Beerus now exactly in comparison to Goku? The truth is, and you are right with that one, we don't know exactly. We can only speculate and assume Beerus is still in charge 'for a reason'.
Whis and Beerus, no matter what their power level is, are characters that really bring live to Super. Mostly Whis, i think it's a great character, he adds a unique flavour with his philosophical treats, and i hope if Super continues we learn more about the Gods and the angels. Because they are intresting characters, and that's more important then what their exact power levels are.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Zamasu55 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Jiren, SsjB Evolution Vegeta, UI Omen Goku (third appearence) and MUI Goku are all above Beerus.
Then there's Toppo who's as strong as him, like Vermouth (who's stronger than Beerus in the anime) said.

Plus, Broly will be stronger than him.

So, what is your point?

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:45 pm

CTAkuma wrote:I don't understand this fan demand that Beerus NEEDS to be stronger than Goku for his character to be interesting, if anything him being weaker would alow him to be more on the action and not be a killer of stakes and all tension.
Beerus being stronger ties into one of the series’ core themes. Things are way more interesting if Goku has a benchmark so far out of his league.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:51 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:Jiren, SsjB Evolution Vegeta, UI Omen Goku (third appearence) and MUI Goku are all above Beerus.
Then there's Toppo who's as strong as him, like Vermouth (who's stronger than Beerus in the anime) said.

Plus, Broly will be stronger than him.

So, what is your point?
Toppo and Vegeta are nowhere near Beerus in my estimation. Toppo was a complete noob with his Hakaishin powers, and Vegeta only barely beat him because he was holding back in order to not get disqualified for killing.

SSJBE Vegeta < Hakaishin Toppo going all-out < Belmod ~ Beerus < Full power Jiren < Full power MUI Goku < Whis.
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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by CTAkuma » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:55 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:Beerus being stronger ties into one of the series’ core themes. Things are way more interesting if Goku has a benchmark so far out of his league.
I disagree, it kills the future villains sense of strength and threat when we know Goku has a friend who can easily erase him, also Z never had to go to that route for the entirety of its runtime. They also wrote themselves into a hole thanks to Beerus in the Future Trunks saga

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by nato25 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:01 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:Beerus being stronger ties into one of the series’ core themes. Things are way more interesting if Goku has a benchmark so far out of his league.
I disagree, it kills the future villains sense of strength and threat when we know Goku has a friend who can easily erase him, also Z never had to go to that route for the entirety of its runtime. They also wrote themselves into a hole thanks to Beerus in the Future Trunks saga
Are you talking about how Beerus killed the present timeline Zamasu? If so, while Beerus was the one that did that, I think it's easy to say that anyone could have killed Zamasu in that form. Beerus refused to deal with the real threat that was in the future though, so I think the Future Trunks saga actually handled that really well. It shows Beerus will destroy to protect, it was probably the best example of him competently doing his job.

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Re: Why didn't they leave more room for Beerus strength to grow?

Post by Zamasu55 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:20 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:Jiren, SsjB Evolution Vegeta, UI Omen Goku (third appearence) and MUI Goku are all above Beerus.
Then there's Toppo who's as strong as him, like Vermouth (who's stronger than Beerus in the anime) said.

Plus, Broly will be stronger than him.

So, what is your point?
Toppo and Vegeta are nowhere near Beerus in my estimation. Toppo was a complete noob with his Hakaishin powers, and Vegeta only barely beat him because he was holding back in order to not get disqualified for killing.

SSJBE Vegeta < Hakaishin Toppo going all-out < Belmod ~ Beerus < Full power Jiren < Full power MUI Goku < Whis.
Belmod said that he was no different than the other Gods. Back in ep.110, Whis said that Jiren had already surpassed a God of Destruction, and that was a highly suppressed Jiren.

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