Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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GodVegetto91
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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:06 pm

PFM18 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Yeah the only problem with the retellings is how they were executed. If they just waited longer to release them instead of rushing them out it would have been better. The animation was REALLY bad in those first two arcs. Especially before they touched it up later on.
Well from a writing perspective, they handled it okay (aside from the inconsistencies) i mean, this is a show which has the ability to expand on certain plot points greatly, and needless to say, they certainly took that chance. I.e. Goku and Vegeta’s training under Whis. More explanations about things that were merely hinted in the BoG movie etc. I’m not getting into all the details right now but you get the point. Yes. The Animation was much worse than the movies, but that’s not exactly a show’s greatest strength. It was definitely the expansion of certain plot points, considering all the time they have with all these episodes. All in all, i was satisfied.
I really don't know what inconsistencies people are referring to
Powerscaling inconsistencies ofcourse.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:02 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote: Well from a writing perspective, they handled it okay (aside from the inconsistencies) i mean, this is a show which has the ability to expand on certain plot points greatly, and needless to say, they certainly took that chance. I.e. Goku and Vegeta’s training under Whis. More explanations about things that were merely hinted in the BoG movie etc. I’m not getting into all the details right now but you get the point. Yes. The Animation was much worse than the movies, but that’s not exactly a show’s greatest strength. It was definitely the expansion of certain plot points, considering all the time they have with all these episodes. All in all, i was satisfied.
I really don't know what inconsistencies people are referring to
Powerscaling inconsistencies ofcourse.
Not following. Only thing I can think of is Gohan saying that Tagoma is as strong as him at his best, and then he beats him despite admitting to being weaker than before. And even then I'm sure if you examine the scene/verbatim you could make sense of it.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 pm

coola wrote:
Dragono wrote:They were necessary in the sense of production. Imagine u6 arc having as much bad animation as bog or future trunks having as bad animation as rof.
I still don't understand, how could they screwed the pooch with BoG and F TV series so badly? Episode 5 was so bad it was in news TV in Mexico. Sailor Moon Crystal 1st season and Hpapiness Charge Precure were often pretty bad, but not to this extend

After the art of episode 5 was somehow fixed for the Blue-Ray, i even prefer that version of Goku versus Beerus on King Kais planet. Better action and more drama than the movies version.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by reecehoward » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:02 pm

Low Tone G wrote:In my view, they were absolutely unnecessary... Especially when the clash of God Goku and Beerus(at 1% of power or less) was to potentially wreck the universe... That feat really ruined the whole series' following arcs. If that feat was really true, Goku's match with Freeza should have ended other universes too, being it's safe to assume that Blue is 50x Red.
I'd argue that this feat alone is what made BoG arc somewhat necessary, as the movie version gave us not a single feat to establish just how powerful they were and the stakes of that power(which is something that bigged me when the movie originally came out). Now, I can agree that the feat could've been better incorporated into the overall story and scaling as far as future battles, but I guess Dragonball has never really dwelled much on it's feats past them happening, so I give some leeway in that department.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:19 pm

PFM18 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:While that would work, imo they ended up making even more contradictions in the retellings so they kind of failed in that aspect imo. And you don't lose anything from watching the movies instead of the first two arcs, besides some funny moments that aren't needed for the later stories.
Mind elaborating on what contradictions you're referring to?

The retellings clarified/added a lot, made alterations with the rest of the series in mind, and added a couple underrated scenes imo.
Not saying why Pilaf and the others were kids is one of the biggest things. In the movie it said they wished to become kids, yet this wasn't even stated in Super once the entire time it aired and they wasted all of ep 4 on their nonsense without even telling us that. So people who only watched Z and then Super would never even know that is not their real age.
Beerus saying he used 10% of his power to beat Vegeta, having no reason to lie and never denying he lied in that case.
Saying that it was a few months since the majin buu arc, and not clarifying there was a multi year time skip, making it seem like the Beerus arc also took a few months after Buu.
Tagoma becoming so strong that in 4 months he could stomp Piccolo.
Gotenks defusing after a few seconds after arriving on the battlefield when he was shown to be able to fly around the world dozens of times before running out of time.
There are probably plenty more, I just can't think of them right now, but that should be enough to prove my point. The movies had their problems as well, but the super retelling arcs didn't make it any better.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:03 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Not saying why Pilaf and the others were kids is one of the biggest things. In the movie it said they wished to become kids, yet this wasn't even stated in Super once the entire time it aired and they wasted all of ep 4 on their nonsense without even telling us that. So people who only watched Z and then Super would never even know that is not their real age.
Yeah I guess that's inconsistent but I literally couldn't care less about the Pilaf gang and so it doesn't really bother me.
Beerus saying he used 10% of his power to beat Vegeta, having no reason to lie and never denying he lied in that case.
There's a clear precedent for him lying about it. He admitted to lying about using his full-power and so naturally this would also be a lie. The precedent makes this a natural assumption.
Saying that it was a few months since the majin buu arc, and not clarifying there was a multi year time skip, making it seem like the Beerus arc also took a few months after Buu.
It didn't completely clarify it, but it doesn't necessarily contradict that either. Toei did ultimately clarify it with their timeline so it doesn't really matter. The first episode takes place 6 months after but now we know there's a gap between that and the Beerus arc, whether we know that from the series or supplementary material isn't entirely important.
Tagoma becoming so strong that in 4 months he could stomp Piccolo.
You may not like it, and it is obviously plot based, but it doesn't really contradict any earlier precedent set before because we don't know Tagoma as a character and what he is capable of.
Gotenks defusing after a few seconds after arriving on the battlefield when he was shown to be able to fly around the world dozens of times before running out of time.
It's just a gag scene so I'm not exactly infuriated about it. It was just there to have Gotenks hit Tagoma in the crotch area. But yes, this is an inconsistency that I forgot about.
There are probably plenty more, I just can't think of them right now, but that should be enough to prove my point. The movies had their problems as well, but the super retelling arcs didn't make it any better.
There's so many things that they clarified, changed, or fixed in the retellings to justify thier existence though.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:58 pm

PFM18 wrote: There's a clear precedent for him lying about it. He admitted to lying about using his full-power and so naturally this would also be a lie. The precedent makes this a natural assumption.
He lied to Goku to make him bring out his full power, when he said it to Vegeta the fight was already over and he thought he was going to destroy the planet. He had no reason to lie. It was most likely based off of the old scale before they decided to change it.
It didn't completely clarify it, but it doesn't necessarily contradict that either. Toei did ultimately clarify it with their timeline so it doesn't really matter. The first episode takes place 6 months after but now we know there's a gap between that and the Beerus arc, whether we know that from the series or supplementary material isn't entirely important.
It still causes confusion.
You may not like it, and it is obviously plot based, but it doesn't really contradict any earlier precedent set before because we don't know Tagoma as a character and what he is capable of.
Piccolo is stronger than the androids were. After 3 years of training for them ssj Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than 17 and 18. So unless Tagoma has more inner potential than the legendary ssj, then no it makes no sense. Even Nail had a higher base power level than Tagoma did at the end of his training so Nail should have a higher potential than Tagoma.
There's so many things that they clarified, changed, or fixed in the retellings to justify thier existence though.
It's not like they are deal breakers, I'm just saying they are no better than the movies. The one thing that was retconned that actually mattered was Tarble's existence. They could have just taken that line out of the movie and aired it on T.V. and nothing important would be lost. They could have also taken out the 70% line about Beerus' power. They are very easy fixes.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by jollyroger » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:32 am

personally I feel they should have just split the moves into 6-8 episodes this way theres not two different versions of the same event

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 am

PFM18 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I really don't know what inconsistencies people are referring to
Powerscaling inconsistencies ofcourse.
Not following. Only thing I can think of is Gohan saying that Tagoma is as strong as him at his best, and then he beats him despite admitting to being weaker than before. And even then I'm sure if you examine the scene/verbatim you could make sense of it.
Frankly you never follow anything, and ignoring or trying rationalize inconsistencies don’t mean they were never there.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:12 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote: Powerscaling inconsistencies ofcourse.
Not following. Only thing I can think of is Gohan saying that Tagoma is as strong as him at his best, and then he beats him despite admitting to being weaker than before. And even then I'm sure if you examine the scene/verbatim you could make sense of it.
Frankly you never follow anything, and ignoring or trying rationalize inconsistencies don’t mean they were never there.
Frankly I follow things perfectly fine. Maybe you should try making an argument rather than dismissing others entirely based on nothing?

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by OmegaRockman » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:17 pm

While I don' like them (they're redundantly redundant and look like butt in many places), when it comes to selling the show as a direct continuation to Z/Kai they make sense. Old fans coming in for the first time in a while don't need to know anything other than what they remember from watching the show and/or playing the games aa kids, and broadcasters who are wrapping up their Z/Kai runs can go right into Super without alienating viewers who didn't see the movies. So yeah, they're not necessary storytelling-wise, but their existence makes sense when wide audience accessibility and appeal to broadcasters are considered.
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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by prince212 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:29 pm

B.o.G was necessary , R.o.F wasn’t , started with resurrection and ended with dead , no big plots that affects to the whole series as B.o.G.
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:54 am

prince212 wrote:B.o.G was necessary , R.o.F wasn’t , started with resurrection and ended with dead , no big plots that affects to the whole series as B.o.G.
Well technically RF was important to Freeza's later resurrection, it was a lesson for Freeza and one that got him to his former self. RF was him blinded by immediate revenge which ultimately cost him but his later revival he was getting back to his old self he learned he needs to play his cards right and not worry about getting revenge immediately. Basically you need to see RF from the perspective of Freeza.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:46 pm

It's hard to say, for me. I have gone back and forth on whether or not I feel they were needed. I think it depends on what angle you look at.

For audiences who didn't know about the movies and needed more context? Necessary.
For avid Dragon Ball fans who went to see the new movies in the theater? Probably not necessary.

My biggest gripe is that the art/animation was not very good in the show. Despite the attempt to rectify that in the Blu-rays, I still felt the art/animation was subpar in the BoG and RoF arcs. The movies get huge brownie points for great work on the visual side of things (I'm okay with the CGI, as I personally feel it is not too bad).

I do feel the arcs were stretched out further than they could be i.e. 27 episodes is a lot to turn maybe 3 hours of footage into. Small changes don't bother me like Gotenks showing up vs. not showing up; Piccolo dying and coming back right away vs. not dying at all; Bulma's birthday on a boat vs. on a patio; Goku fighting Beerus on Kaio's Planet in SS1, SS2, SS3 vs. only fighting in SS3.

The biggest narrative changes were: 1) Vegeta remembering King Vegeta bowing to Beerus; 2) Goku and Beerus almost ruining the universe during their fight; 3) Vegeta acquiring the god power on his own. A part of me does feel that, as of October 2018, god ki is not spoken of much, so I don't feel that the level of depth DBS went into during the beginning of RoF saga is relevant. The amount the movie went into is probably fine given how SSBlue is not seen as SS1 with god ki anymore.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by Cipher » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:48 am

PFM18 wrote:They were absolutely necessary because they clarified several things that needed to be in place for the rest of the series. The movies were created in a vacuum and didn't have an entire anime series following it in mind. They had to recreate those stories with alterations that allow for things to be cohesive with the rest of the anime/manga.
Alterations like ommitting the reason/any explanation as to why the Pilaf gang were children or the origin of the Trunks/Mai relationship that would be essential to a later arc, you mean.

Alterations like that.

Essential alterations, for the story, and not at all ones that were the results of production catastrophe on both the writing and animation side due to its slapdash release.

Very important alterations for people who didn't see the movies, so they could understand what was going on.

Glad we had these utterly essential retellings,so thoroughly thought out to improve the cohesion of the story, so Super could stand on its own.

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Re: Were the movie retelling arcs necessary in DBS or should they have just been omitted?

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:30 am

Would it have been necessary to retell all of Dragon Ball within Super or should that have just been omitted?

This isn't like Boruto where entire arcs are told both before and after the movie adaptation; this is a series that immediately kicks off with its movie adaptations, endeavoring to explore original arcs only after they're finished. If new stories require prior knowledge of content derived from the films... then, well, yeah, people seriously should have watched the films. It already requires prior knowledge of the original series, so where in the dickens was my Red Ribbon arc retelling? Why should those other kids get a pass?

If being superfluous wasn't iffy enough, the retellings are also structurally incompetent. They consistently leave out important details that provided context for certain characters in the originals, contain needless ambiguities in-universe, and completely drop the ball on pacing by extending the length of stories that were intended to be written with a scale of, at most, two hours, inflating that length with some of the worst examples of padding I've ever seen from the studio.

It's easy to parse where I stand on this. They're totally unnecessary, but their greater sin is that they leave you without a single compelling reason to watch them over their earliest counterparts.

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