Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

[Shaddy]

I'd still argue that saying Bardock's rebellion is his "defining moment" and all his character needs is really underselling the work that went into distinguishing the character in just 45 minutes. Especially when that moment is him dying for nothing and it comes at the end of the special. If the character wasn't "defined" without that scene and died immediately after it, nobody would care or have enjoyed that special.

[Luso Saiyan]

There's nothing to fix. But they can (and probably will) expand upon what was established in it.

[AnimeNation101]

Its kinda been retconned out of the main continuity. Not that it was apart of the main continuity in the first place because we dont know if Toriyama wrote the story ideas with the thought that these were part of the main series.

Weren't you one of the ones who said that when Toriyama passes away, if Toei comes up with new stories and say that they take place in the "main continuity", then that means they [the stories] indeed do? Because that is exactly what Dragon Ball Online has always been. A faithful sequel to the original manga, ignoring all fillers and even Dragon Ball GT, so yeah, the game does take place in the "main continuity". We don't know all the details of Toriyama's involvement, but taking into consideration the five years in the production and Bardock's personality in it...

As for the retcons: none and nothing that affects drastically the game, baby Goku changed to a toddler is as much a retcon to the entire franchise as it is to Dragon Ball Online. If you are going to disregard the game because of it, you may want as well to disregard everything then.

So no. The main continuity is DBS.

Which one? Toei's anime, Toyotaro's manga or Toriyama's outlines?

And unles ssomething changes, DBO does not follow the main series if DBS.

On the contrary, unless things affect heavily Dragon Ball Online, it follows the main series.

No. But i said that if Toriyama gave Toei or Toyo his blessing to continue Dragon Ball then yeah, they would count as part of the main continuity.

And no where has it been stated that DBO is part of the main continuity. And I'm pretty sure DBS would have retconned it out of existence anyways.

Its a game. Not a manga or series. Its part of extended universe (continuity) of dragon ball. Sure, I’d love for it to happen in the main continuity but as of now, it doesn’t.

The main continuity is DBS (both the anime and manga as both never diverage extremely to the point where characters are alive in the anime while they’re dead In the manga or stuff like that. They always end in the same result.

Dbo may follow the EVENTS of the main series but that could be said for the Prison Planet arc of SDBH or the DBLegend storyline.

[Grimlock]

And no where has it been stated that DBO is part of the main continuity. And I'm pretty sure DBS would have retconned it out of existence anyways.

Just like there is no such statement for anything released after 1995. Yet, people use Toriyama's line speaking about how certain work takes place after something and there is one for Dragon Ball Online from Toriyama himself that people conveniently ignore.

Its a game. Not a manga or series. Its part of extended universe (continuity) of dragon ball. Sure, I’d love for it to happen in the main continuity but as of now, it doesn’t.

Again, being a game or not is irrelevant. And yes it does. The game was created to follow the manga, that is why you do not see certain things in it.

The main continuity is DBS (both the anime and manga as both never diverage extremely to the point where characters are alive in the anime while they’re dead In the manga or stuff like that. They always end in the same result.

That it's still impossible. Either you have Gotenks fighting Beerus in base, Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3, not all of them.

Dbo may follow the EVENTS of the main series but that could be said for the Prison Planet arc of SDBH or the DBLegend storyline.

That can be said for those other games, except those other ones were not meant to be in the main continuity. And for people that only consider what Toriyama is involved, well, no Toriyama in both of the ones you mentioned.

[Saturnine]

Am I the only one not bothered bt Goku's changed origins because I care more about what a character does than what their origins are?

[AnimeNation101]

And no where has it been stated that DBO is part of the main continuity. And I'm pretty sure DBS would have retconned it out of existence anyways.

Just like there is no such statement for anything released after 1995. Yet, people use Toriyama's line speaking about how certain work takes place after something and there is one for Dragon Ball Online from Toriyama himself that people conveniently ignore.

Its a game. Not a manga or series. Its part of extended universe (continuity) of dragon ball. Sure, I’d love for it to happen in the main continuity but as of now, it doesn’t.

Again, being a game or not is irrelevant. And yes it does. The game was created to follow the manga, that is why you do not see certain things in it.

The main continuity is DBS (both the anime and manga as both never diverage extremely to the point where characters are alive in the anime while they’re dead In the manga or stuff like that. They always end in the same result.

That it's still impossible. Either you have Gotenks fighting Beerus in base, Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3, not all of them.

Dbo may follow the EVENTS of the main series but that could be said for the Prison Planet arc of SDBH or the DBLegend storyline.

That can be said for those other games, except those other ones were not meant to be in the main continuity. And for people that only consider what Toriyama is involved, well, no Toriyama in both of the ones you mentioned.

You keep sayign all this stuff but you never give evidence

Show me where Toriyama says DBOnline is intended by him to follows the main continuity. Because saying a game follows the story of DB is not saying its apart of the DB main continuity or SDBH and DBL would also count.


Heck, Toriyama didn’t even write the story of online. He supervised its writing and made character designs. You’re acting like he put as much effort into it as he did for the manga or heck, even DBS.

So yeah, show me the proof where Toriyama tells us DBOnline is the sequel to Dragon Ball Z and is next up in the main continuity (which is different from simply following the events from the main continuity).

[Grimlock]

You keep sayign all this stuff but you never give evidence. Show me where Toriyama says DBOnline is intended by him to follows the main continuity. Because saying a game follows the story of DB is not saying its apart of the DB main continuity or SDBH and DBL would also count.

I haven't because I thought that Toriyama's comment was public knowledge by now. Anyway, like I said, I am just following the logic you (plural) tend to use when you (plural) use Toriyama's comment on time placement but you (plural) distort as if he was talking about "hey, this take place in the "main continuity!"".

So for example, people use this Toriyama's line to say that Dragon Ball Super takes place in the "main continuity", including the retellings:

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc (...).

But people conveniently forget that Toriyama said this about Movie 14 and Movie 15:

[As with the last movie], I thought up the new story for the next Dragon Ball theatrical film as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization (...).

Or when people twist Toriyama's words about Dragon Ball Super: Broly movie, his intention was clearly stating when the movie takes place, not that the movie is a follow-up to the anime continuity version of events:

The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV (...).

So, if people can do that and everyone is okay with it, I am pretty sure I can use this exact same kind of statement to say that Dragon Ball Online does take place in the main continuity too:

This new Dragon Ball story that we're delivering to you this time begins in a world 216 years after the manga (...).

Heck, Toriyama didn’t even write the story of online.

Now I must ask for an evidence.

You’re acting like he put as much effort into it as he did for the manga or heck, even DBS.

He spent five years developing the game and we don't know how long he dedicated himself to Dragon Ball Super. So it is not like you can make a comparison here.

So yeah, show me the proof where Toriyama tells us DBOnline is the sequel to Dragon Ball Z and is next up in the main continuity (which is different from simply following the events from the main continuity).

Yes, it is indeed different, but like I said above, if people can distort information, then I am sure that statement for Dragon Ball Online is just as valid.

[PFM18]

I don't really take issue with it though. In all versions of Bardock's story, he's had attachment to some people, whether it's his crew, random aliens, or his wife and kids. He's not suddenly a good guy because he wants his son to live, he still genocides people for a living, he's just got something worth fighting for.

That's not what I'm worried about. Bardock is clearly a scum bag either way.

I am referring to it clashing with the theme of the Saiyan arc and the nature of Goku's story. Originally, Goku was sent to Earth because he was assessed to be "low class trash" and so he was sent away from Earth to conquer some weak planet, rather than the "elites" actually stay on Planet Vegeta. That ties in too the Saiyan Arc and how Vegeta cannot come to terms with somebody lower class than him defeating him, and that is an integral part with his character for the rest of the story. The whole "you're on this planet because you weren't worthy of staying on our planet" among other aforementioned plot points, lose all weight when Goku was suddenly originally sent to Earth because Daddy loved him and caught wind of their genocidal overlord's plan.

It being a video-game or not is irrelevant. It is not like a continuity could not be constituted by different types of media.

You might want to quote me next time so I actually know that you responded.

But no, it being a one-off video game that was never actually emphasized to be part of the main continuity makes it not part of the main continuity. Just as Xenoverse and other video games aren't part of the main continuity, neither is DB online.

[Grimlock]

You might want to quote me next time so I actually know that you responded.

I only quote when the person's post is away from mine or if I reply specific parts, like this one.

But no, it being a one-off video game that was never actually emphasized to be part of the main continuity makes it not part of the main continuity. Just as Xenoverse and other video games aren't part of the main continuity, neither is DB online.

Dragon Ball Online has as much emphasis in being part of the main continuity as some other works are stated to be, see my post above. Xenoverse and other games were never emphasized to be a sequel, nor were created with the intention to follow anything.

[AnimeNation101]

You keep sayign all this stuff but you never give evidence. Show me where Toriyama says DBOnline is intended by him to follows the main continuity. Because saying a game follows the story of DB is not saying its apart of the DB main continuity or SDBH and DBL would also count.

I haven't because I thought that Toriyama's comment was public knowledge by now. Anyway, like I said, I am just following the logic you (plural) tend to use when you (plural) use Toriyama's comment on time placement but you (plural) distort as if he was talking about "hey, this take place in the "main continuity!"".

So for example, people use this Toriyama's line to say that Dragon Ball Super takes place in the "main continuity", including the retellings:

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc (...).

But people conveniently forget that Toriyama said this about Movie 14 and Movie 15:

[As with the last movie], I thought up the new story for the next Dragon Ball theatrical film as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization (...).

Or when people twist Toriyama's words about Dragon Ball Super: Broly movie, his intention was clearly stating when the movie takes place, not that the movie is a follow-up to the anime continuity version of events:

The Dragon Ball Super movie this time will be the next story in the series currently airing on TV (...).

So, if people can do that and everyone is okay with it, I am pretty sure I can use this exact same kind of statement to say that Dragon Ball Online does take place in the main continuity too:

This new Dragon Ball story that we're delivering to you this time begins in a world 216 years after the manga (...).

Heck, Toriyama didn’t even write the story of online.

Now I must ask for an evidence.

You’re acting like he put as much effort into it as he did for the manga or heck, even DBS.

He spent five years developing the game and we don't know how long he dedicated himself to Dragon Ball Super. So it is not like you can make a comparison here.

So yeah, show me the proof where Toriyama tells us DBOnline is the sequel to Dragon Ball Z and is next up in the main continuity (which is different from simply following the events from the main continuity).

Yes, it is indeed different, but like I said above, if people can distort information, then I am sure that statement for Dragon Ball Online is just as valid.

I think you’ve been misunderstanding the people. Of course at the time of creation, BoG and RoF were stories apart of the main continuity. But as DBS came and the retellings came, BoG and RoF the movies were retconned. No one forgot that movies 15 and 16 were of the official continuity. They’ve just been retconned out by the retelling.

So no, you can’t say “So, if people can do that and everyone is okay with it, I am pretty sure I can use this exact same kind of statement to say that Dragon Ball Online does take place in the main continuity too” because your example of people “forgetting stuff” was wrong.

And this is exactly what I've been talking about. What Toriyama says to describe DBO is differnt. He doesn’t call it a continuation of the main continuity or dragon ball series or 42 chapters, or anything like that. He even says its set “in a world” already giving it the feeling that this THE dragon ball main continuity world but just “a” world.

It states that all Toriyama did was work on designs and supervise some of the decisions made in creating DBO to make sure it has a Dragon Ball World feel.

viewtopic.php?t=32399#p1016178

So not only does he not write the story, but that means he’s done more in DBS than DBO. He’s done supervision on both the manga and sometimes even the anime, he’s done character designs, and has even done the the outline for the stories for DBS.

And again, even if DBO was apart of the main continuity despite all this evidence against it, DBO probably aint anymore considering:

1. How forgetful Tori is. He probably forgot about DBO considering he didn’t even write the story

2. Just like B.o.G and R.o.F I'm sure DBS has retconned it out of existence

[buutenks]

I don't see what is so special about TV special Bardock. The special was nice and all, but its not like it changed anything. If Bardock had just sat on some chair in a bar and drank, it would have been the same thing.

[FortuneSSJ]

Impossible, because the only way to "fix" Minus to me would be not being Minus at all.

My two problems with Minus is that it retcons Goku's past and changes Bardock's character after 20+ years. Both problems are still in the movie. It will be better that the manga because they will have time to flesh out things better and we have a good staff working on it.

I'm sure that despite all the reasons, it will still be a fun movie. Who knows, may actually be one of the best of the franchise. But I'm also sure that the talented staff is what will "save" this movie. Change the staff with ROF Movie staff and this movie quality would hit the bottom. A great Director makes all the difference.

[zarmack]

It would have been much better if they just used the 90s Bardock special (with a few changes) for the Broly film, but with Gine included since she seems to be the only thing anyone likes from DB Minus.

[zarmack]

Why would anyone still care about DB Online at this point. Its a dead, forgotten game that has been retconned by both Super and Xenoverse. How anyone could still look at DB Online as "canon" in this day and age is silly.

[VegettoEX]

Why would anyone still care about DB Online at this point. Its a dead, forgotten game that has been retconned by both Super and Xenoverse. How anyone could still look at DB Online as "canon" in this day and age is silly.

For another example, look... like, at this very thread!... to people who enjoy the original Bardock TV special and how it was consistently described over time, and nowadays take issue with all of the recent Bardock retcons, rewrites, and "what if?" stories.

People are excited about things they enjoy, and it's understandable where frustration may come from when those things are handwaved in subsequent productions. So long as the discourse doesn't devolve into toxicity, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people talking about these changes and explaining why they think it's a net-loss.

[Mister_Popo]

There probably will be some changes to the original Minus-story to make it fit within the overall narrative of the Broly-story.
Are they worth the 'retcon'? We first have to wait and see the full movie for that.

[Ronin]

I liked Minus despite its problems. I think it can still work if you tweak Bardock and Gine's characters and Bardock's motivations for sending Goku off. Like more as a fuck you to Freeza behind his back rather than caring about his son. It would explain why Goku seems to be the only Saiyan toddler who survived and why Raditz and rest of Freeza's empire forgot about him until Raditz eventually did when he needed help on another mission he was on. And maybe Bardock does more than that behind Freeza's back and some other Saiyans do similar small acts of rebellion as well. They should definitely expand on the story leading up to his send off.

I wrote a long detailed post about what I think might work and also keep in line with the manga, but found my session timed out when I tried to post, so I'm not writing all of that out again. Knew I should've copied it first just in case something went wrong....

[tasuxeda]

I love Minus so the only change I would make is that it is made clear that while Bardock and Gine sent Goku to earth for his safety they was still sending him to earth to kill everyone on earth with perhaps some help from them if their fear were unfounded and could reunite with him as planned.

[WittyUsername]

I love Minus so the only change I would make is that it is made clear that while Bardock and Gine sent Goku to earth for his safety they was still sending him to earth to kill everyone on earth with perhaps some help from them if their fear were unfounded and could reunite with him as planned.

They specifically told him not to look at the full moon while he was on Earth. That would imply that they didn’t want him ravaging what would become his new home.

[Luso Saiyan]

My two problems with Minus is that it retcons Goku's past and changes Bardock's character after 20+ years.

Bardock's character, as in Goku's father, was never established by Toriyama (he was only mentioned offhand, and not by name). Minus was the first time he explored the character and in a very limited way. Goku's past, or at least its circumstances according to Raditz's version of it, was retconned (just like the destruction of planet Vegeta, making Raditz and unreliable narrator due to his limited knowledge of what happened and how it happened), but it's still compatible with Toriyama's story. And that's all it needs to be compatible with.

It would have been much better if they just used the 90s Bardock special (with a few changes) for the Broly film, but with Gine included since she seems to be the only thing anyone likes from DB Minus.

That some people may not like Minus and like the TV special in perfectly understandable. Heck, I love the TV special. Toriyama likes it too, he said so himself and a shot from it was incorporated in the manga. But it's still not his story. That some think that Toriyama shouldn't be able to tell his version of events and instead stick to what Toei made up simply because most people like it is beyond me (just to clarify, I'm not talking about you).