Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

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Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:19 pm

Now when I ask if they can "fix" Minus, I don't necessarily mean revamp it entirely, but rather change it in such a way that it doesn't screw up the context of Goku being sent to Earth. As we know, Bardock is rendered this "nice guy" despite coming from his ruthless race and undermining the notion that Goku is so different from his kinsman, despite coming from a generic Saiyan that has no qualms with slaughtering people. Bardock, worried about his son, sends his son to Earth because he's suspicious that Freeza will blow up Planet Vegeta, contradicting Vegeta's original description in the Saiyan arc that he was sent because he was considered low-class trash that could handle eradicating the pathetic planet of Earth.

But what if the Broly movie changes it to be both? As in, It is officially determined that Goku is trash and will be sent to Earth at a certain specific date but Bardock is suspicious of Freeza's intentions and wants to save his son so he goes behind King Vegeta's back and sends him earlier than that date.(Or however they want to frame him sending Goku early, I don't know I'm not a writer.) Obviously, this wouldn't actually fix Minus's problems but it deeply irritates me that it contradicts the dialogue in the Saiyan arc when Raditz/Vegeta comment on why Goku was sent to Earth.

What do you think of this happening? If you could change Minus and how it is implemented in the movie, what would you do?

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:21 am

I'd rather Minus not be included at all because of the many unfortunate implications it brings with it. I mean, the second trailer reveled the terrible scene where Goku is sent to Earth by Gine and Bardock for his safety. So the pooch had already been thoroughly screwed in regards to there being any hope of improving Minus -- at least with it's most controversial and nonsensical narrative decision.

But in a scenario where I had no other choice but to include Minus in some capacity in the Dragon Ball Super Broly movie, here's what I would do -- at least with the story and character beats:

- I would start with a child Bardock and Gine being sent to a trash alien planet because they're battle powers are so insulting low they had the two of the fight together (with the special mention that Saiyan children being sent to planets in pairs is a rare case)
- Have Bardock and Gine resent each other due to the other's presence representing the pretense of their inadequacy in battle and it wounding their pride as Saiyans.
- This resentment towards each other leads to them bickering and arguing quickly and Bardock and Gine go off their separate ways to conquer the trash level alien planet and perform horribly at it
- They come back to each other bloodied and bruised and don't say a word to each other, knowing most likely what happened to onw another.
- Bardock leaves to fight more aliens and continues losing badly. Then Gine begrudgingly aids him when he's about to die.
- Bardock and Gine realize they would rather live to become more powerful than they are, than pathetically die on a trash planet, so they team up.
- Their teamwork in combat is sloppy and uncoordinated at first, but they get the job done and wipe out all life on the planet.
- Bardock and Gine report back to Freeza's high ranking soldiers, who act very surprised in them surviving.
- Bardock and Gine tell each other that they didn't like having to work together, but will do so again in the future if their lives depend on it.
- Flash-forward montage of Bardock and Gine working together -- as they grow older and are accompanied by the same Saiyans in the 1990 Bardock TV special -- and their teamwork becoming more refined.
- Cut to the beginning of Minus, but instead of Bardock being that other Saiyan scrub, he's with Gine.
- Don't have Bardock jump the gun and perfectly predict that Freeza has something nefarious planned for the Saiyans and send Goku away for his safety. Just have him steal a space pod as a contingency plan.
- Don't have Gine quit fighting and become a fucking lunch lady.
- Have Gine secretly send Goku to Earth because of his low battle power (using the space pod that Bardock stashed away). And express disappointment in having another son being born a weakling, but also having the hope he will defy expectations and somehow thrive on a trash planet like Bardock and herself did. Then transition to Bardock being in the background and secretly watching what happened with weary smile on his face.
- Retell the events of the Bardock TV special with Gine being a part of Bardock's gang, who is also murdered by Dodoria's mooks.

You some elements of Minus, some elements of the 1990 Bardock TV special, Gine's character and relationship with Bardock is fleshed out more... everyone wins.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Jackalope89 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:25 pm

Or; how can Minus fix Bardock?

Bardock Special, Bardock cared about his team, but not his son until deus ex machina vision that amounted to a pointless ability anyway.

Minus, Bardock cared about Saiyans in general (not other races). Didn't trust their cruel overlord, which makes sense and doesn't need a pointless ability to justify it.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:52 pm

They can present it well, yes. The pretty colors and the sad music will be enough to sway most people into liking a fundamentally broken story.

Minus will be 'fixed' if they add enough to Vegeta and Broly's backstories, enough to overshadow how poor Goku's is, which is doubtful. The contrast between Vegeta, Goku and Broly's upbringings seems to be the focus of the film, but it falls flat since they're just taking away the traits of Goku's (original) upbringing and giving them to Broly.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Zephyr » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:10 pm

The thematic damage from making Goku's origins more special won't somehow not still be done, but with more room to breathe, and acting as a prologue to a story rather than an epilogue, said damage can at least be done in service of the larger story that Toriyama has been weaving since 2013.

Dragon Ball and "Dragon Ball Super" are distinct stories. And, while one is the foundation of the other, I'm fine with them both taking different, mutually exclusive, stabs at expanding the protagonist's origins. Is it a shame that one will likely turn out weaker than the other? Of course, but it's par the course: Super, even at its best, is a weaker artistic work than Dragon Ball; the contrast in quality between origin stories is a microcosm of that larger artistic disparity.

And that's okay: Super is not a replacement of the original story, and will always remain a derivative novelty in my eyes. I'm down for whatever new Dragon Ball ride Toriyama wants to take me on, even if it can't fill the impossibly large shoes left by the last one. I'd never expect it to.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:58 pm

It's my hope that expanding on the story, adding Broly, further showing Frieza and King Cold first encounter the Saiyans, and making it of some length in the film will help make it more palatable. I doubt aspects of the Bardock special will make it, but hopefully what's added will be able to make it better

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Trek405 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:58 pm

I really don't think there's much that can be done to fix minus.

Another thing that really irritates me about minus that not many talk about is how vegeta survives his planets destruction. In the original manga dodoria reveals that freeza intentionally sent vegeta away to spare his life because he would be useful. In minus vegeta apparently only survived becaused he ignored freezas order to return with everyone else. Minus doesn't just harm gokus backstory but it also diminishes the vegeta/freeza relationship as well.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by snpaa » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:14 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:Or; how can Minus fix Bardock?

Bardock Special, Bardock cared about his team, but not his son until deus ex machina vision that amounted to a pointless ability anyway.

Minus, Bardock cared about Saiyans in general (not other races). Didn't trust their cruel overlord, which makes sense and doesn't need a pointless ability to justify it.
1. Bardock's ability doesn't lead to him or his race survival they still get killed in the end

2. how is bardock just suddenly thinking Freeza is up to something with no foreshadowing or cues for audience to see any better? it just feels like read ahead on the script.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:19 pm

snpaa wrote:2. how is bardock just suddenly thinking Freeza is up to something with no foreshadowing or cues for audience to see any better? it just feels like read ahead on the script.
Frieza called everyone back at once which was very unusual and Bardock heard his mooks were asking around for information about Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 pm

Doctor. wrote:They can present it well, yes. The pretty colors and the sad music will be enough to sway most people into liking a fundamentally broken story.

Minus will be 'fixed' if they add enough to Vegeta and Broly's backstories, enough to overshadow how poor Goku's is, which is doubtful. The contrast between Vegeta, Goku and Broly's upbringings seems to be the focus of the film, but it falls flat since they're just taking away the traits of Goku's (original) upbringing and giving them to Broly.
Ok but I more so mean can they or will they fundamentally change the story to NOT be broken? They can add things but they can also conceivably change things from Minus to make it better. As far as I know, it isn't set in stone, and this reaching way more people than Minus kind of makes it fine to overwrite Minus because more people will be familiar with this than Minus anyway.

Obviously it'll be presented well but I don't think that it is fair or accurate to say that good presentation would be enough for people to like a crappy story. Not sure why you claim that.

For me, by far the two most important things are that:

1. They keep Bardock's rebellion against Freeza and destroying planet Vegeta during it because it is a defining moment of the character and it is in the original manga.
2. They don't make Goku sent to Earth because he loves him, but they keep the original narrative that Goku was considered low-class trash so they sent him away like any other low-class Saiyan.
Last edited by PFM18 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:34 pm

• If they delve into their war against Tsufurujins;
• If they delve into the Yamoshi lore;
• If they expand more on Bardock, Gine and Raditz;
• If they expand more on King Vegeta, Vegeta and Nappa;
• If they keep the fact that Vegeta must be older than Goku;
• If they at least touch on Tarble's character;
• If they actually get rid of Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God idea;
• If they get rid of that "Beerus ordered/asked/was involved" in Freeza's intention to destroy planet Vegeta;
• If they keep Bardock's rebellion.

If all these criteria are met, yes, I'm sure Movie 1 will fix Dragon Ball Minus.

Bonus: (• if they tease Mira saving Bardock...).

This movie is a big "if" in general. It is what will determine if it will turn out to be a great movie or a bad one.
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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:45 pm

Grimlock wrote:Bonus: (• if they tease Mira saving Bardock...).
Oh god no. I'd be so pissed if they brought that crap into the main continuity

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:58 pm

It is already in the main continuity due to Dragon Ball Online.
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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:47 pm

Grimlock wrote:It is already in the main continuity due to Dragon Ball Online.
that's quite the reach. Dragon Ball Online is just a video game

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:38 pm

It being a video-game or not is irrelevant. It is not like a continuity could not be constituted by different types of media.
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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 pm

Grimlock wrote:It being a video-game or not is irrelevant. It is not like a continuity could not be constituted by different types of media.
Its kinda been retconned out of the main continuity. Not that it was apart of the main continuity in the first place because we dont know if Toriyama wrote the story ideas with the thought that these were part of the main series.

So no. The main continuity is DBS. And unles ssomething changes, DBO does not follow the main series if DBS.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Shaddy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:37 pm

Trying to link everything together into a big meaningless clusterfuck of an extended universe isn't the same thing as crafting an engaging or meaningful narrative out of a comic. Minus totally can, and probably will, be fixed. The hit to Goku's heroic development being that he came from weirdly passive saiyans instead of bloodthirsty ones is already done, but most of Minus's problems are practical ones of forced foreshadowing in dialog, no important events actually happening, none of the characters having any personality or doing anything of worth, and a general lack of any storytelling whatsoever. The movie's already showing Frieza actually destroying Planet Vegeta, so even if everything else sucks, they still had the event that the manga focused on the final days of Planet Vegeta forgot. Good direction can save a lot of the kid Goku stuff, since it's an emotional farewell undercut by the irony that Goku isn't going to remember any of it, and they'd do well to give Bardock a "you go CONQUER that planet son!" kind of line to add to that. Everything else isn't really important. We see Nappa, Raditz, King Vegeta, the Namek villains and Cold, but they sort of came and went as characters. Saying they need to "expand" on people that are dead and who don't contribute at all to the development of the actually-important characters is basically just begging for filler. More focus on Frieza would be nice, especially that of how he actually feels about the situation.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:51 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:Its kinda been retconned out of the main continuity. Not that it was apart of the main continuity in the first place because we dont know if Toriyama wrote the story ideas with the thought that these were part of the main series.
Weren't you one of the ones who said that when Toriyama passes away, if Toei comes up with new stories and say that they take place in the "main continuity", then that means they [the stories] indeed do? Because that is exactly what Dragon Ball Online has always been. A faithful sequel to the original manga, ignoring all fillers and even Dragon Ball GT, so yeah, the game does take place in the "main continuity". We don't know all the details of Toriyama's involvement, but taking into consideration the five years in the production and Bardock's personality in it...

As for the retcons: none and nothing that affects drastically the game, baby Goku changed to a toddler is as much a retcon to the entire franchise as it is to Dragon Ball Online. If you are going to disregard the game because of it, you may want as well to disregard everything then.
AnimeNation101 wrote:So no. The main continuity is DBS.
Which one? Toei's anime, Toyotaro's manga or Toriyama's outlines?
AnimeNation101 wrote:And unles ssomething changes, DBO does not follow the main series if DBS.
On the contrary, unless things affect heavily Dragon Ball Online, it follows the main series.
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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Skar » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:00 pm

They can fix Minus by revealing its version of Bardock is a 5th dimension doppelganger or something who wants to screw with the timeline and change the reason Goku was sent to Earth. Then the real Bardock finds out and does this:
Before confronting Freeza in his original armor like that panel in the manga.

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Re: Can they fix Minus in the new movie?

Post by Mewzard » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:15 pm

PFM18 wrote:For me, by far the two most important things are that:

1. They keep Bardock's rebellion against Freeza and destroying planet Vegeta during it because it is a defining moment of the character and it is in the original manga.
2. They don't make Goku sent to Earth because he loves him, but they keep the original narrative that Goku was considered low-class trash so they sent him away like any other low-class Saiyan.
There is a reasonable chance that your first desire will happen. We never saw Freeza destroy Vegeta in Minus, but we clearly do in the Broli movie.

The second option will not be the case as the second trailer clearly showed Bardock and Gine seeing Goku off.

I don't really take issue with it though. In all versions of Bardock's story, he's had attachment to some people, whether it's his crew, random aliens, or his wife and kids. He's not suddenly a good guy because he wants his son to live, he still genocides people for a living, he's just got something worth fighting for.

As long as we get some decent development, I think it can work. Minus' main failing was that it wasn't really much of a story, it was basically little more than ideas storyboarded out. I feel that issue can finally be fixed.
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