Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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batistabus
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by batistabus » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:51 pm

I understand why anime fans might have trouble with this. The anime went out of its way to say Vegeta attained god ki without the ritual. Neither the manga, BoG, nor RoF implied this. In the BoG film, Vegeta even says that next time it's his turn to do the ritual. When RoF came out, I had just assumed they did the ritual with Vegeta. I don't think every single thing needs to be spelled out for us.

Still, even if they didn't do the ritual with Vegeta, we know he at least has god ki. He has Super Saiyan Blue. SSB is explicitly described as the power of Super Saiyan God combined with Super Saiyan, so it makes sense that Vegeta would also have access to Super Saiyan God. Since Goku and Vegeta are able to become normal Super Saiyans, we know that God ki and normal ki are separate. If he turns on normal ki, he becomes a Super Saiyan. Just God ki: Super Saiyan God. Both: SSB.

Of course, the idea that Goku/Vegeta would not just always be using god ki seems to contradict a few things. At the end of BoG, Goku is clearly using the power of gods while Super Saiyan. At the beginning of RoF, Goku fights Freeza intensely in what looks to be his base form but is implied (based on the previous film) to be utilization of god ki. In an interview released after BoG, Toriyama blatantly says that Goku made the power his own. Even so, the very next arc shows both Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans, which means they must not be combining the power of Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God. This seems like a small contradiction to me, but since it happened early on in Super, anyone still on board should already have accepted this. Toriyama likely did not have the future of Super in his mind while writing the first two films, so in his typical fashion, he adjusted things as he saw fit.

As for the manga introducing the idea that SSB burns more ki than SSG, regardless of who approved of it, Toriyama seems to have taken to it when writing DBS: Broly. It's not a seamless addition, but it works well enough. Sure, that was also the problem with Golden Freeza, and it never seemed to be an issue for the Saiyans during RoF, but they could've been well aware of the weakness and made sure to manage it properly.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:53 pm

batistabus wrote:At the end of BoG, Goku is clearly using the power of gods while Super Saiyan.
Well I think they are making a distinction between using God Ki there, and just having that much power. They explicitly explain that he is NOT using God Ki because once he dropped out of SSG, even though he didn't lose any power, he could be sensed by Piccolo and such, because he was no longer using God Ki.
At the beginning of RoF, Goku fights Freeza intensely in what looks to be his base form but is implied (based on the previous film) to be utilization of god ki.
I think that was just retconned from the movie because in Super they never actually imply he is using God Ki in his Base when he fought Freeza.

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Son-Kakaroto
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:39 am

PFM18 wrote:
batistabus wrote:
We are discussing SSG Vegeta and his existence in different continuities. The only continuity before in which it does exist, it exists for the reason that I mentioned and that is relevant to the discussion. It exists in the manga because Toyotaro grossly exaggered the stamina drain issues. That's the only reason why it was there in the manga and not in the anime, and people use this to conclude that Vegeta never achieved SSG in the anime continuity when really he just never had a reason to use it and in the manga he was forced to use it.
How can you say toyotaro "grossley exaggerated the stamina drain issue" when he was the one who really invented the stamina drain in the first place?
Vegeta was never shown, hinted, implied, or stated to even have the ssj god form in the TV show. And your last setence is false, if vegeta had ssj god; toriyama would not have needed to supervise the use of ssj god in the manga. If ssj god vegeta existed, then it would have been confirmed by creators, show or any author. Akira didn't even have a design for ssj god vegeta, so how could vegeta have a form he was never stated to have by the creators, show or author himself?
Point is ssj god vegeta didn't exist until its debut in the manga, and never exist on screen until the movie which may not even be in the same continuity as the tv show.

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