Is Toriyama trying to set a foundation to make sure DB lives on?

[Xeztin]

Basically, as the title suggests, I feel that Toriyama is doing more world building in Super then world destruction. What I mean by that is, he's not killing off every villain and even if he does he brings them back with the exception of Zamasu. He's come up with all these universes, brought Freeza back, made sure Broly survived, and seems to be setting up the franchise so that it can run on forever, long after he steps down. You have Shueisha, Toei, Toyotaro, multiple spin-offs etc... I think he is trying to create a situation where there will be unlimited material to draw from, or always something to go off of. (In example, the Broly movie could lead to a deeper arc about the history of Saiyan origin etc..) What do you guys think? Do you think after he's done writing, Dragon Ball is done as well? Looks like things like Super Heroes is experimenting with how well their original based arcs work in the game and anime?

[Zephyr]

Maybe. Then again, the manga's ending was meant to feel like the adventure would just continue. So the fact that there will be unexplored material after he is done isn't necessarily indicative of anything.

That said, when Toriyama is done, Dragon Ball, where it counts, is done. You'll still have characters crafted by Toriyama's hand having mystical kung fu battles, but without his sense of whimsy and irreverence, it will be soulless. It will be the amorphous "Dragon Ball Room" prancing around in Toriyama's skin.

People like to champion the lore, and the characters, and the worldbuilding, but all of that, which gets championed and praised so highly, only exists as an extension of Toriyama's individual personality, as his decade of improvisational writing made manifest. People will try, probably successfully to an extent, to replicate it, but they will never be able to fully fill his shoes.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Maybe. Then again, the manga's ending was meant to feel like the adventure would just continue. So the fact that there will be unexplored material after he is done isn't necessarily indicative of anything.

That said, when Toriyama is done, Dragon Ball, where it counts, is done. You'll still have characters crafted by Toriyama's hand having mystical kung fu battles, but without his sense of whimsy and irreverence, it will be soulless. It will be the amorphous "Dragon Ball Room" prancing around in Toriyama's skin.

People like to champion the lore, and the characters, and the worldbuilding, but all of that, which gets championed and praised so highly, only exists as an extension of Toriyama's individual personality, as his decade of improvisational writing made manifest. People will try, probably successfully to an extent, to replicate it, but they will never be able to fully fill his shoes.

Yeah I don't buy it, that just sounds like toriyama worship. Look at:
orginal db movies
13 dbz set movies
Dbs manga
Dbs GT
some of the Dbz filler
db specials

all great product that had some to no toriyama influnce. If toriyama goes, and toei, shueisha and toyotaro work hard: dragon ball will be fine. If a show is well-written, it's well-written irrespective of who's writing it. Same goes for dragon ball.

[AnimeNation101]

I’d hope so.

I personally have a theory that DBS 1 was just a setup for multiple plot points and DBS 2 will have arcs develop out of the plot points introduced in DBS 1.

Stuff like Sadala, Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12, Univeres 13 to 18, Jiren’s Evil-Doer, Zalama, etc.

[Zephyr]

Yeah I don't buy it, that just sounds like toriyama worship. Look at:
orginal db movies
13 dbz set movies
Dbs manga
Dbs GT
some of the Dbz filler
db specials

all great product that had some to no toriyama influnce. If toriyama goes, and toei, shueisha and toyotaro work hard: dragon ball will be fine. If a show is well-written, it's well-written irrespective of who's writing it. Same goes for dragon ball.

The pre-Z films, and even some of the Z ones, are largely re-imaginings of story arcs from the manga (obviously varying in how much they change things up). The good bits of filler, the TV Specials, and GT all work as solid companion-pieces to the original work that Toriyama (essentially-single-handedly) created. Toriyama isn't completely hands-off with the Super manga, and both it and the Super anime act as companion-pieces to the new "Toriyama films". These are all works that one should consume only in addition to the original work. None of them are substitutes for it, no matter their quality. Part of that is because they're not the source material, but part of that is indeed because they're lacking in what makes Dragon Ball a distinct work in the first place: Toriyama's touch. His ability to draw, his comedic timing, the irony that oozes from the page, the ability to improvise a ten-year-long gag, week by week, wedge a bell-curve of seriousness in the center, and stick the landing...

That's a large repertoire of skills. It's certainly feasible that a committee could be formed, by people who all individually capture one of those talents respectively. Even then, though, the result would feel like a Frankenstein's Monster in comparison to the original work, where all of those talents were cohesively displayed by a single individual. It would be creatively lesser, by design. With a series as dense as Dragon Ball is, even just counting the source material, there has to be a point where enough is enough. If you get bored re-reading 42 volumes of manga, re-watching 13+ films and TV specials, etc., then it might be time to go consume something other than Dragon Ball, rather than pining for more Dragon Ball. Even the Dragon Ball works that Toriyama is involved with, that are being created in the present, don't hold a candle to the original run, when he was in his prime.

And this isn't worship, it's an acknowledgement of the essential role that an author's personality and quirks often play in making a work what it is. I don't know what kind of music you listen to, or what kind of movies you like to watch, but an entirely new, ongoing, non-complementary-to-the-original-work Dragon Ball story, with no involvement from Toriyama, would be like Megadeth (somehow) kicking Dave Mustaine out and moving forward without him, or a sequel to Pulp Fiction being made with absolutely no involvement from Quentin Tarantino.

It could follow the TvTropes/Cinema Sins nitpick rulebook to a tee, and feature a clear and clean narrative structure (or, in the Megadeth example, be perfectly-competently composed music), but that wouldn't keep it from being sterile, by the numbers, safe, uninteresting, and devoid of the exact charm and personality that made Dragon Ball a hit to begin with. I'm sure a series without Toriyama would be financially-successful nowadays, where brand worship is more than in-vogue, and, hell, I'm sure I'd even enjoy them, but it wouldn't be the same. It wouldn't be as distinct. It wouldn't be as charming. And if that's all the case, what's even the point? Again, sure, I'll enjoy them, but there's a lot out there to enjoy; why waste my time enjoying something more brand-driven than auteur-driven?

None of this is me saying that you're only allowed to enjoy a certain thing in a certain way, or in a certain dose, or that you're wrong for wanting more of a thing you love. I'm simply arguing why I don't want more, why I don't need more, and genuinely inquiring as to why people do want, or feel that they need, more.

[Toxin45]

I’d hope so.

I personally have a theory that DBS 1 was just a setup for multiple plot points and DBS 2 will have arcs develop out of the plot points introduced in DBS 1.

Stuff like Sadala, Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12, Univeres 13 to 18, Jiren’s Evil-Doer, Zalama, etc.

It would just start with the end of z because we want it to take place after it and also possibly zalama being a non-fighter deity also some Eldrich horror that even puts Zeno to shame.

[AnimeNation101]

I’d hope so.

I personally have a theory that DBS 1 was just a setup for multiple plot points and DBS 2 will have arcs develop out of the plot points introduced in DBS 1.

Stuff like Sadala, Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12, Univeres 13 to 18, Jiren’s Evil-Doer, Zalama, etc.

It would just start with the end of z because we want it to take place after it and also possibly zalama being a non-fighter deity also some Eldrich horror that even puts Zeno to shame.

Oh yeah definitely, i hope after this Broly event we get a timeskip.

[BWri]

That said, when Toriyama is done, Dragon Ball, where it counts, is done. You'll still have characters crafted by Toriyama's hand having mystical kung fu battles, but without his sense of whimsy and irreverence, it will be soulless. It will be the amorphous "Dragon Ball Room" prancing around in Toriyama's skin.

People like to champion the lore, and the characters, and the worldbuilding, but all of that, which gets championed and praised so highly, only exists as an extension of Toriyama's individual personality, as his decade of improvisational writing made manifest. People will try, probably successfully to an extent, to replicate it, but they will never be able to fully fill his shoes.

While I do agree that DB will lack a vital element of its soul whenever Toriyama-san decides to step away or simply cant work on it anymore, I know that Toriyama-san wasn't the only person responsible for making it a hit. Dragon Ball hit its stride after the first arc when an editor prompted Toriyama-san to increase the action. It was the fusion of Toriyama-san's talent and vision steered by suggestions from his various editors that made Dragon Ball into the phenomenon it is today. It is the decisions of Toei writers to expand on characters and moments and to present quality animation for those big moments and what kept Dragon Ball alive long after its death were various game developers like Dimps who put love and care into great Dragon Ball related games to expand Dragon Balls appeal to younger and younger generations.

Toriyama-san's vision is Dragon Ball, but he is also a fickle creator and doesnt seem to possess the love of his characters that his fans and other creators that touch his work do. So my hope is that he uses his great imagination to expand this universe as far as he can, but afterwards I'd like someone with a true love of the franchise to go in with a microscope and move the pieces around in a fun and heartfelt way.

So yes, without Toriyama-san Dragon Ball would be missing a major piece of its soul, but it can heal and live on, slightly changed and better than ever if the right hands touch it. Unfortunately, I dont think thats Toyotaro but Toei does have some writers that have some potential. A few of those DBS writers really made me take notice. As long as the company learns from the mistakes of DBGT, they can keep the franchise going for a while.

Some great things Toei did:

Spoiler:

-Gave Krillin a reason for being so weak all this time and properly built up his character before the ToP
(Would have been even better if Toriyama-san's draft included more for Krillin to do)

-Gave Gohan a decent if inconsistent build after his crushing defeat by Frieza.
(I again think this would have worked more had Toriyama-sans script given them more indication that Gohan would be relevant, but you can tell they're trying to develop him.)

-Just about every slice of life scene or episode of Super is fun and heartwarming. This is Toei exclusive content and it was legitimately the best part of the earlier arcs. I loved the lead-up to the recruitment arc as well.

-Gave Hit vs. Goku some closure.

-Gave Frost's heel turn some closure. It was small but Frost had a bit of a character arc.

-Did something with Frieza's mook henchman and tried to give us a peak at his and Frieza's training

-Fleshed out the other universes more than the manga

-Gave us Gohan character development and addressed and fixed Gohan's tendency to get cocky when he gets a big powerup.

-Introduced Cabba's master Rensou (Caulifla's brother)

-Gave the Dragon Ball cast a win over the Ginyu Force to keep them relevant for a little longer.

-Made the Earthlings and Piccolo actually do something while Gohan was struggling against Cell

-Gave Piccolo a lot of shine in the fight vs. the Cell Jrs. since he was actually standing and fighting against them in the manga despite what Cell said.

-Gave Piccolo a little shine in the initial skirmish with Dabura.

[MKCSTEALTH]

I think Toriyama gave a great foundation in the original Dragonball and Z for Toei, Shuesha, Funimation, Toyotaro, and the fans to expand out as we wish. I can see his involvement with the series going forward as it is for a long time, and with the "Dragon Room" created to make new stories, along with the games continuing to expand out new ideas, Dragonball will continue to live on

[Saturnine]

Yeah I don't buy it, that just sounds like toriyama worship. Look at:
orginal db movies
13 dbz set movies
Dbs manga
Dbs GT
some of the Dbz filler
db specials

all great product that had some to no toriyama influnce.

That is... highly debatable at best.

If toriyama goes, and toei, shueisha and toyotaro work hard: dragon ball will be fine. If a show is well-written, it's well-written irrespective of who's writing it. Same goes for dragon ball.

Without Toriyama, a descent of the franchise into something like SDBH feels pretty much a done deal. Take GT for example, that already felt comoletely devoid of Toriyama's soul and the show stopped airing more than 20 years ago.

[Bullza]

One of the biggest advantages this series has compared to most is for how large scale this series is, other planets, other universes, other realms, other timelines...it's still all pretty simple. It's easy to keep it going.

Other series feel dragged out and out of ideas, so they go downhill, lose popularity and they end. Something like Dragon Ball is so simple that they can have this current story about an escaped galactic prisoner....and it's interesting because it's never been done before.

So I could say the next saga is about the previous God of Destruction before Beerus and he's gonna be the villain and that would be enough for there to be plenty of interest in it. Then the next saga would be about the Demon King from Universe 6 and then after the next saga would be about a rogue Angel who had been banished and you can go on and on.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Yeah I don't buy it, that just sounds like toriyama worship. Look at:
orginal db movies
13 dbz set movies
Dbs manga
Dbs GT
some of the Dbz filler
db specials

all great product that had some to no toriyama influnce.

That is... highly debatable at best.

If toriyama goes, and toei, shueisha and toyotaro work hard: dragon ball will be fine. If a show is well-written, it's well-written irrespective of who's writing it. Same goes for dragon ball.

Without Toriyama, a descent of the franchise into something like SDBH feels pretty much a done deal. Take GT for example, that already felt comoletely devoid of Toriyama's soul and the show stopped airing more than 20 years ago.

Gt was awesome, and gave me dragon ball vibes just like any dragon ball product of that time, if you want something looks devoid of toriyama's soul, watch modern dragon ball, especially the anime. It's just cheap and meaningless fan-service.

[Saturnine]

Whatever helps you sleep at night

[Mister_Popo]

Both the characters, world structure, storylines all have that classic signature of Akira Toriyama. Super is soaked with it. In less than the original manga, but clearly noticeable. I miss those unexpected plottwists, interesting and juicy characters and imaginative worlds that typify Toriyama in the other "adapted material" that has been made, which seem no more than hollow resonances to me of how it should be done rather than how it should be done.

The author's stamp is inseparable from modern Dragon Ball. Although the current "non-canon material" is not the best example of what might be possible by other authors, I think that in the long run a Dragon Ball Room can offer a solution to create new stories that approach the level of Toriyama. That process is already under way even now.

The lore and characters that are created now will not go down but will enable future creators to work within a framework that's needed to feed new stories.
One day, the Dragon Ball Room will get the not so ease task to replace the current chief editor.
If there is lore to work with in the first place, these peoples difficult task can somehow be enlightened.

A multidisciplinary approach is already valid within the franchise, and I think that will only be extended in the future.
This can be done in for example in this way:

- One or two writers (Shueisha and TOEI?) who build the story together. That does not have to be the same person every arc. Different writers can just keep the franchise innovative and lively.
This does not mean the same as, different writers every episode, which was one of the main problems of Super.
- Someone who has been specifically appointed to remove inconsistencies from the story, who keeps the canonical overview and gives feedback to the writers of the arc to adjust what it is about. This editor-in-chief also ensures that any consequence between anime and manga is preserved, if Toriyama is no longer there. Maybe this can even be done by Toriyama if he would decide to step down but still liked to be somehow involved.
- Not one designer but different designers can design villains, other important characters .. This will give you more of a cross-fertilization of different styles, a trend that is already happening under Nagamine.
- Toyotaro not only makes a derivative of the main product, but can also come up with storylines and is more creatively involved in the end product, a direction that is already being explored in the new Galactic Patrol Arc.
- Everyone within the 'room' can launch new creative ideas, designers talk about the story and the writers also give their ideas about the designs and the animation.
- Why not actively involve fans in this forum? Not to give 100% fan service, but more in order to test brand new concepts before they go into creation, to ensure the end product has the quality label it deserves.

A modern franchise with that kind of stature, which is by no means comparable with a "normal manga and anime", can't be carried by one person alone. If Dragon Ball comes after Toriyama, which I do not doubt, it will probably have multiple makers.
The signs of the times will learn us if they can carry the legacy in a profound manner.

[superfan2024]

I just want to get the heck out of the Boo-EoZ time-rift... please.... let us out...

[PFM18]

I just want to get the heck out of the Boo-EoZ time-rift... please.... let us out...

This. 100% agree. They are going to fit SEVEN story arcs in that time, it is just crazy.

[AnimeNation101]

I just want to get the heck out of the Boo-EoZ time-rift... please.... let us out...

This. 100% agree. They are going to fit SEVEN story arcs in that time, it is just crazy.

We have about 3 more years.

[PFM18]

I just want to get the heck out of the Boo-EoZ time-rift... please.... let us out...

This. 100% agree. They are going to fit SEVEN story arcs in that time, it is just crazy.

We have about 3 more years.

It's still stupid

[AnimeNation101]

This. 100% agree. They are going to fit SEVEN story arcs in that time, it is just crazy.

We have about 3 more years.

It's still stupid

Yes. It is. I’m just saying, we’ll have to sit through 3 in-universe years before we get to the End of Z because it dont seem like we’re even gonna get a time skip