Regarding Freeza (spoilers for the upcoming movie)

[Nickolaidas]

And Zeno erasing you means jackshit because the stars would have to align for Zeno to even give a crap about you. He is so stupid that he didn't even realize that Zamasu was committing genocide across the cosmos. So, if I were a villain in Dragon Ball, why would I care about Zeno?

And whoopie-dee-do, aligned they did.

Yes, because the bad guy can't win. Logically, after all the times he was punched, kicked and blasted in that arc, he should have lost the Zeno Button from his stupid pockets. Of course the stars aligned in a show about the good guys winning, but from an in-universe perspective, not even Vegeta, Goku's closest friend, knew about the existence of the Zeno Button, so why would Zamasu?

Yeah, poor guy couldn't catch a break. He should definitely go to a group therapy session with all other genocidal maniacs who had their plans ruined by inferior lucky-as-f*&k beings.

Zamasu: Goku's a d*&k.
Frieza: Here, here (applauds).
Broly: KAKAROTTO!!
Zamasu: Aren't you DBS Broly?
Broly: Oh, that's right. (launches Frieza to the air and beats the living shit out of him)
Zamasu: ... I'm lonely.

[Thani]

So... Isn't the whole wish deal just a reference to the Red Ribbon Army? Everyone assumed General Red wanted to wish for world domination, but he just wanted to be taller.

That's the joke that came to mind regarding Freeza. A callback to the classic about a tyrannical midget wanting to be taller instead of something more practical (since size usually means jackshit in DB).

Hardly a dealbreaker to me. After what, 15 years and dying twice, Freeza outgrown his fear of death.

[Acetona]

I'm dumbfounded. This joke is the last straw.

Super wasn't that great and killed all my hype that Battle of Gods had build up until then. My interest on the franchise wasn't at its pike, but I wasn't as disinterested as I am now. It seems it's time for me to forget this even exists. It's even worse than GT now. I'm done with the franchise.

[Nickolaidas]

I'm dumbfounded. This joke is the last straw.

Super wasn't that great and killed all my hype that Battle of Gods had build up until then. My interest on the franchise wasn't at its pike, but I wasn't as disinterested as I am now. It seems it's time for me to forget this even exists. It's even worse than GT now. I'm done with the franchise.

Okay, see you tomorrow.

[Acetona]

I'm dumbfounded. This joke is the last straw.

Super wasn't that great and killed all my hype that Battle of Gods had build up until then. My interest on the franchise wasn't at its pike, but I wasn't as disinterested as I am now. It seems it's time for me to forget this even exists. It's even worse than GT now. I'm done with the franchise.

Okay, see you tomorrow.

Oh. That's not very polite of you. You don't even know me to make this kind of assumption.
And if remains any doubt, I'm talking about new material. I still love the original manga and re-read it often.

[Nickolaidas]

I'm dumbfounded. This joke is the last straw.

Super wasn't that great and killed all my hype that Battle of Gods had build up until then. My interest on the franchise wasn't at its pike, but I wasn't as disinterested as I am now. It seems it's time for me to forget this even exists. It's even worse than GT now. I'm done with the franchise.

Okay, see you tomorrow.

Oh. That's not very polite of you. You don't even know me to make this kind of assumption.
And if remains any doubt, I'm talking about new material. I still love the original manga and re-read it often.

You're earlier than I expected. Welcome back!

[Cipher]

I have zero problem with the wish and am a bit surprised people expected Freeza to be anything but a largely neutral presence now. Once you fight alongside Goku, you are never really a villain again. That's the rule.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this tamer, more flexible Freeza in the future, because bringing a character out of their comfort zone is always more interesting to me than just having them repeat the same moves as before. I don't expect he'll ever be a serious threat again, but he might make an interesting occasional ally/rogue character. The fact that he's still the fourth strongest mortal in the universe is also a wrinkle that prevents him from just feeling like a Pilaf-esque gag.

Also, reminder that recurring-character gag Freeza dates all the way back to the original anime run, when he and Cell were Hell buddies.

[supersaiyanZero]

Add frieza to the list of characters modern dragonball has decided to butcher.

[Nickolaidas]

Add frieza to the list of characters modern dragonball has decided to butcher.

Unlike Dragon Ball Z which has treated Frieza with the utmost respect after his defeat on Namek. No humiliation to his character whatsoever. He wasn't treated as a joke at all. No sir. Neither by Trunks, nor Pikkon, nor Adult Gohan, nor Hell itself where he was demoted to peanut gallery cheering for Kid Buu.


Nope. It was modern Dragon Ball that butchered him, by making him relevant again, by making him smarter than his Namek persona, by making him instrumental to the Universe's survival, by making him trade blow with the strongest enemy the Z Team ever faced, by making him team-up with Goku to one of the most awesome moments in Dragon Ball history.


But sure, lets ignore history and facts and make statements of pure hyperbole as we wear our shiny nostalgia goggles.

[SupremeKai25]

Why are you people taking it so seriously? Dragon Ball villains always had garbage motivations and were pretty much some of the most generic villains in Anime. Even Zamasu, who is the most complex and original Dragon Ball villain by far, is pretty basic compared to most other Anime villains.

The average fan doesn't give a shit about a good antagonist, the average fan just wants to watch cool fights, which the movie will clearly have. And Toei knows this.

[Nickolaidas]

Why are you people taking it so seriously? Dragon Ball villains always had garbage motivations and were pretty much some of the most generic villains in Anime. Even Zamasu, who is the most complex and original Dragon Ball villain by far, is pretty basic compared to most other Anime villains.

The average fan doesn't give a shit about a good antagonist, the average fan just wants to watch cool fights, which the movie will clearly have. And Toei knows this.

Anime villainy and complexity are overrated in general, but this is neither the place nor the time.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Why are you people taking it so seriously? Dragon Ball villains always had garbage motivations and were pretty much some of the most generic villains in Anime. Even Zamasu, who is the most complex and original Dragon Ball villain by far, is pretty basic compared to most other Anime villains.

The average fan doesn't give a shit about a good antagonist, the average fan just wants to watch cool fights, which the movie will clearly have. And Toei knows this.

We also like cool designs and attacks, and originality in back story. Don't try to dumb down us dragon ball fans. And zamsu isn't the most "original dragon ball villain", not even close. He's a evil kai and evil goku. Not very original. He's actually very un-orginal in terms of what he is.

[SupremeKai25]

We also like cool designs and attacks, and originality in back story.

But this thread isn't about cool designs, attacks and originality in backstory, is it?

Don't try to dumb down us dragon ball fans.

It's a fact that the average Dragon Ball fan doesn't care about having a morally grey antagonist, otherwise Broly wouldn't be so popular. Broly's "motivations" are trash. The same goes for Freeza. Don't tell me that he isn't popular because of how violent or terrifying he was, but because he had compelling and intriguing motivations, because I won't believe you.

By the way, I would be classified as a Dragon Ball fan too since I love Zamasu. And I never said that there is anything wrong with liking a villain merely because of their techniques/designs, instead of their motivations.

And zamsu isn't the most "original dragon ball villain", not even close. He's a evil kai and evil goku.

Goku Black is not and never was an Evil Goku. He even refers to himself as Zamasu. He is Zamasu. Those who think that Black is an Evil Goku are either extremely superficial people, or haven't watched episode 60 of Dragon Ball: Super.

Zamasu is an Evil Kai. How many villains in Dragon Ball were Evil Kais? 0.

As I said, This thread is complaining about Freeza's motivations, and so am I. And as I said, every Dragon Ball villain has the most basic possible motivations (take over the world/kill everyone/become perfect). Whereas Zamasu at least had some nuances of grey, since who wouldn't want world peace? Who wouldn't want to uphold the laws? Who wouldn't want to bring order to the darkest corners of the world? Of course, since he was mad, he also wanted to kill everyone eventually (although I love how, unlike the other villains, he cherished nature, and so he didn't want to destroy the planets themselves, because he sought to preserve the pristine beauty of the world ----> Compare that to Freeza, Cell and Buu, who didn't care about blowing up planets to get their way). But at least the writers tried to create a more original and relatable villain with Zamasu, instead of yet another genocidal space emperor, evil lab experiment, or ancient demonic being.

[Son-Kakaroto]

We also like cool designs and attacks, and originality in back story.

But this thread isn't about cool designs, attacks and originality in backstory, is it?

Don't try to dumb down us dragon ball fans.

It's a fact that the average Dragon Ball fan doesn't care about having a morally grey antagonist, otherwise Broly wouldn't be so popular. Broly's "motivations" are trash.

And zamsu isn't the most "original dragon ball villain", not even close. He's a evil kai and evil goku.

If Zamasu is an Evil Goku, then so is Cell. Goku Black is not and never was an Evil Goku. He even refers to himself as Zamasu. He is Zamasu. Those who think that Black is an Evil Goku are either extremely superficial people, or haven't watched episode 60 of Dragon Ball: Super.

Zamasu is an Evil Kai. How many villains in Dragon Ball were Evil Kais? 0.

As I said, This thread is complaining about Freeza's motivations, and so am I. And as I said, every Dragon Ball villain has the most basic possible motivations (take over the world/kill everyone/become perfect). Whereas Zamasu at least had some nuances of grey, since who wouldn't want world peace? Who wouldn't want to uphold the laws? Who wouldn't want to bring order to the darkest corners of the world?

I don't really care what this thread is about, i'm replying to what you said.

I don't care about "morally grey" attagonist because I don't look at japansese fiction animes to educate me on what's right and wrong. I already have a well founded sense on what is righteous and what is wicked. Zamsu is nothing more then an punkish delqiuent and naive child who is concieted in his own stupditiy. There's nothing "morally grey" with him, that's compelling to someone who has wisdom. He's a cunning delquient who took advantage of undilligent gods. Berrus in the manga described him as well, just some rouge young kai who needed a smack to the head.

"so is cell" LOOOOOOOL. Yes, because sharing a small percentage of gokus dna equals someone inherited the entire body of goku. Cell is actually more original then regurgitated zamsu. The existence of "kais" was something already established in the Freeza saga and buu saga. So that hurts originality. And then add to the fact he's just an evil "goku" (his name is literally GOKU black) which has been done in fan fiction so many also hurts originality. His being is about as un-orginal as it gets. Zamsu in general is just a brat deluded in his own delinquency like the juvenile kai he is. Nothing captivating or honorable about that child. He's a joke. And if you are compelled by his cause, you really need to grow up. Honestly, all of these dragon ball villains are more original then zamsu:
red ribbon army
King piccolo
tien
Garlic junior
The sayains
Freeza
Cell
bojack
jenenmba
Hirudagarn/tapion
baby
shadow dragon
Hit


Not all of these character are better or more compelling then zamsu, but in just strictly originality: give me these character over zamsu any day of the week. Zamsu originality is

[SupremeKai25]

I don't really care what this thread is about

Then there is nothing left to discuss.

By the way, It's "Zamasu", not "Zamsu".

[Son-Kakaroto]

I don't really care what this thread is about

Then there is nothing left to discuss.

I've said what I needed to say about that extremely unoriginal villain called zamasu. You're right nothing more needs to be discussed since my comment essentially describes zamasu "originality" in nutshell. Thank you. Goodbye.

[Toxin45]

I have zero problem with the wish and am a bit surprised people expected Freeza to be anything but a largely neutral presence now. Once you fight alongside Goku, you are never really a villain again. That's the rule.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this tamer, more flexible Freeza in the future, because bringing a character out of their comfort zone is always more interesting to me than just having them repeat the same moves as before. I don't expect he'll ever be a serious threat again, but he might make an interesting occasional ally/rogue character. The fact that he's still the fourth strongest mortal in the universe is also a wrinkle that prevents him from just feeling like a Pilaf-esque gag.

Also, reminder that recurring-character gag Freeza dates all the way back to the original anime run, when he and Cell were Hell buddies.

Except he will still try to kill goku on ocassions like he did when he was using broly that makes frieza not neutral at all and he is still a villain.While there were issues with Vegeta's integration into the cast, at least it was a natural turn of events in the story. Not reviving a villain decades after they were relevant twice and just having them stick around implausibly.