Regarding Freeza (spoilers for the upcoming movie)

[WittyUsername]

Now that I’ve (reluctantly) read the spoilers for the upcoming movie, the big thing that I’m iffy about is what they apparently did with Freeza. So, apparently Freeza’s entire goal in Dragon Ball Super: Broly is to use the Dragon Balls to become five centimeters taller. Needless to say, that’s a pretty goofy concept for a wish, especially if it’s more or less the basis for the conflict of the movie, and I’ve seen conflicting opinions on whether or not something like this ruins Freeza. On one hand, I’ve seen people argue that it works with how petty and childish Freeza often behaves, and that it feels like classic Toriyama. On the other hand, I’ve seen people argue that it’s completely out of character for Freeza to care that much about his height, and that his entire motivation being predicated on something as silly as that will make the character difficult to take seriously moving forward.

Personally, I’m currently in the latter camp. While I do like that Freeza’s motivation isn’t just that he wants to be immortal again, the idea that the entire catalyst for the plot of the movie is that Freeza wants to gain a minuscule amount of height, just seems ridiculous. Sure, the Dragon Ball franchise is no stranger to silly villains, but Freeza has never really been one of them. Outside of the filler moments from after he was killed by Trunks, he’s always been played pretty seriously, and was responsible for some of the darkest moments of the original manga. Yeah, he did have a sense of humor, but unless we’re talking about the FUNimation dub, he was never portrayed as a straight up goofball.

Between his silly wish and the fact that he supposedly spends a good chunk of the film being a punching bag for Broly, I’m getting the impression that Freeza is going to end up being like Team Rocket, where he’s a recurring villain who’s often played for laughs, and who is more of an inconvenience for the protagonists than a true threat, and I can’t say I like the idea of that. If that’s what they’re going for, I think I would’ve preferred for them to have just kept him dead.

Anyway, what does everyone else have to say about it?

[Son-Kakaroto]

Now that I’ve (reluctantly) read the spoilers for the upcoming movie, the big thing that I’m iffy about is what they apparently did with Freeza. So, apparently Freeza’s entire goal in Dragon Ball Super: Broly is to use the Dragon Balls to become five centimeters taller. Needless to say, that’s a pretty goofy concept for a wish, especially if it’s more or less the basis for the conflict of the movie, and I’ve seen conflicting opinions on whether or not something like this ruins Freeza. On one hand, I’ve seen people argue that it works with how petty and childish Freeza often behaves, and that it feels like classic Toriyama. On the other hand, I’ve seen people argue that it’s completely out of character for Freeza to care that much about his height, and that his entire motivation being predicated on something as silly as that will make the character difficult to take seriously moving forward.

Personally, I’m currently in the latter camp. While I do like that Freeza’s motivation isn’t just that he wants to be immortal again, the idea that the entire catalyst for the plot of the movie is that Freeza wants to gain a minuscule amount of height, just seems ridiculous. Sure, the Dragon Ball franchise is no stranger to silly villains, but Freeza has never really been one of them. Outside of the filler moments from after he was killed by Trunks, he’s always been played pretty seriously, and was responsible for some of the darkest moments of the original manga. Yeah, he did have a sense of humor, but unless we’re talking about the FUNimation dub, he was never portrayed as a straight up goofball.

Between his silly wish and the fact that he supposedly spends a good chunk of the film being a punching bag for Broly, I’m getting the impression that Freeza is going to end up being like Team Rocket, where he’s a recurring villain who’s often played for laughs, and who is more of an inconvenience for the protagonists than a true threat, and I can’t say I like the idea of that. If that’s what they’re going for, I think I would’ve preferred for them to have just kept him dead.

Anyway, what does everyone else have to say about it?

I don't really care that much about frieza, but I don't get why he can't just have his cake and eat it too. Namek and earth dragon ball should grant 3 wishes, so they should have just made the movie predicated on frieza acquiring the dragon balls. One immortality, and then the two as would be followed. But since the movie retconned it to only 1 wish, eh I don't think it's much of a big deal. I just don't see why they had to write he "gave up" on his wish for immortality. They could have easily written it for he didn't care about immortality at the moment and wanted height, which I think could work with Freeza character as being spoiled who does what he wants even if it is childish .

[PFM18]

Well freeza's entire goal isn't the wish but rather to use Broly to kill Goku and Vegeta are finally defeat them even if it isn't him doing it first hand. I actually love that aspect of it and shows another side to his character.

The wish is still stupid as shit though. Character assassination.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Well freeza's entire goal isn't the wish but rather to use Broly to kill Goku and Vegeta are finally defeat them even if it isn't him doing it first hand. I actually love that aspect of it and shows another side to his character.

The wish is still stupid as shit though. Character assassination.

Eh, I wouldn't say character assassination. Even with such a petty wish, I'd still think of Freeza as the ruthless, cunning maniac that he is. We just got shown a pet-peeve of his. Character assassination is what they did to Berrus in this movie, him being a "baby sitter" and being "relieved" at the defeat of broly.

[PFM18]

Well freeza's entire goal isn't the wish but rather to use Broly to kill Goku and Vegeta are finally defeat them even if it isn't him doing it first hand. I actually love that aspect of it and shows another side to his character.

The wish is still stupid as shit though. Character assassination.

Eh, I wouldn't say character assassination. Even with such a petty wish, I'd still think of Freeza as the ruthless, cunning maniac that he is. We just got shown a pet-peeve of his. Character assassination is what they did to Berrus in this movie, him being a "baby sitter" and being "relieved" at the defeat of broly.

I think otherwise his characterization is still good don't get me wrong. He kills Saiyans without a second thought during what was meant as a "friendly" moment where they were passing the torch to him, he kills Paragus thinking it would provoke Broly to unlock SSJ and he blames the intensity of the fight which was really clever and I love that part. Him killing Paragus after thinking back to Namek is a good moment for him I feel like, but I have to see it to draw more conclusions.

How the hell is Beerus's character diminished? Because he is helping a friend of his? We already know that he's friends with Goku and Vegeta so him watching their baby is perfectly in character.

[Kataphrut]

Everything else about the movie sounds great, but this aspect sounds terrible. I think we can now add Freeza to the list of characters Toei are collectively better at writing than Toriyama. He can pull up a seat next to Bardock and Gohan.

The fact that Lemo has to point out the obvious flaw (ie Freeza can become as tall as he likes by transforming) doesn't make it ok. Pointing out story problems for a goof doesn't fix them. Ironically, the only reason he doesn't care about immortality any more is because he's never going away. They want him to be this semi-harmless villain showing up to cause mischief and getting away to try again next time. Having a goal like immortality would make the threat too real.

[JazzMazz]

I initially wasn't sold on the joke, but I think it was the five centimetres part of the gag that sold me. Its hilariously pedantic and meaningless.

As for whether taking him seriously comes into play, I think this movie will definitely do a fantastic job of showing Freeza as a terrifying presence, even in the face of Broly(who will wreck him in spectacular style).

[Toxin45]

Well Zamasu got immortality and Zeno erased him.

[IM21]

The wish is stupid cause Frieza is not a gag character. The guy was the emperor of the universe, killed thousands of people and now wants to grow 5cm... I am sorry, but I am not a fan of this.
Also, what is Frieza's plan after Broly kills Goku and Vegeta? Did he think they will be best friends... Makes not sense.

I loved Frieza in ToP arc but now I think it would be better if he stayed dead.

[Toxin45]

The wish is stupid cause Frieza is not a gag character. The guy was the emperor of the universe, killed thousands of people and now wants to grow 5cm... I am sorry, but I am not a fan of this.
Also, what is Frieza's plan after Broly kills Goku and Vegeta? Did he think they will be best friends... Makes not sense.

I loved Frieza in ToP arc but now I think it would be better if he stayed dead.

Now he isn't dead in the movie and looks likey he won't be.

[Toxin45]

Now that I’ve (reluctantly) read the spoilers for the upcoming movie, the big thing that I’m iffy about is what they apparently did with Freeza. So, apparently Freeza’s entire goal in Dragon Ball Super: Broly is to use the Dragon Balls to become five centimeters taller. Needless to say, that’s a pretty goofy concept for a wish, especially if it’s more or less the basis for the conflict of the movie, and I’ve seen conflicting opinions on whether or not something like this ruins Freeza. On one hand, I’ve seen people argue that it works with how petty and childish Freeza often behaves, and that it feels like classic Toriyama. On the other hand, I’ve seen people argue that it’s completely out of character for Freeza to care that much about his height, and that his entire motivation being predicated on something as silly as that will make the character difficult to take seriously moving forward.

Personally, I’m currently in the latter camp. While I do like that Freeza’s motivation isn’t just that he wants to be immortal again, the idea that the entire catalyst for the plot of the movie is that Freeza wants to gain a minuscule amount of height, just seems ridiculous. Sure, the Dragon Ball franchise is no stranger to silly villains, but Freeza has never really been one of them. Outside of the filler moments from after he was killed by Trunks, he’s always been played pretty seriously, and was responsible for some of the darkest moments of the original manga. Yeah, he did have a sense of humor, but unless we’re talking about the FUNimation dub, he was never portrayed as a straight up goofball.

Between his silly wish and the fact that he supposedly spends a good chunk of the film being a punching bag for Broly, I’m getting the impression that Freeza is going to end up being like Team Rocket, where he’s a recurring villain who’s often played for laughs, and who is more of an inconvenience for the protagonists than a true threat, and I can’t say I like the idea of that. If that’s what they’re going for, I think I would’ve preferred for them to have just kept him dead.

Anyway, what does everyone else have to say about it?

Nah Frieza still isn't dead by this point and it was about Broly not Frieza plus at the end he learned a new thing fusion.

[wolflonnie]

What doesn't add up is that Frieza basically threw away his first empire in order to TRY to get to be immortal. It was an important, if not vital achievement to him.
And now he wants to grew 5cm??? After having been killed two times???? No, it doesn't make sense, at all. It's dumb as hell.
Anyhow, I don't think anything really ruins a character if it's just a small nitpick/problem. For me there has to be a case of persistent bad development at one point.
Wanting to grow 5cm taller is a very bad move and sad joke choice by Toriyama, but Frieza's character is overall still intact. At least, for now. It's a small damage to me.

[Toxin45]

What doesn't add up is that Frieza basically threw away his first empire in order to TRY to get to be immortal. It was an important achievement to him.
And now he wants to grew 5cm??? After having been killed two times???? No, it doesn't make sense, at all. It's dumb as hell.
Anyhow, I don't think anything really ruins a character if it's just a small nitpick/problem. For me there has to be a case of persistent bad development at one point.
Wanting to grow 5cm taller is a very bad move and sad joke choice by Toriyama, but Frieza's character is overall still intact. At least, for now. It's a small damage to me.

Zamasu was immortal but Zeno still destroyed him.

[wolflonnie]

What doesn't add up is that Frieza basically threw away his first empire in order to TRY to get to be immortal. It was an important achievement to him.
And now he wants to grew 5cm??? After having been killed two times???? No, it doesn't make sense, at all. It's dumb as hell.
Anyhow, I don't think anything really ruins a character if it's just a small nitpick/problem. For me there has to be a case of persistent bad development at one point.
Wanting to grow 5cm taller is a very bad move and sad joke choice by Toriyama, but Frieza's character is overall still intact. At least, for now. It's a small damage to me.

Zamasu was immortal but Zeno still destroyed him.

Yes but Frieza didn't, so far, attempted to do something on the scale of Zamasu. Getting immortal would only bring benefits to him. Also, it's not like Frieza is aware of Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

Well Zamasu got immortality and Zeno erased him.

That's because Zamasu didn't take into account the fact that the Goku of an alternate timeline:

- Became friends with Zeno;
- Received the Zeno Button;
- Managed to keep said Button despite all the crap he went through.

Zamasu was very careful. As we can see from the manga, he knew that he was immortal, but he still went to extreme lengths to remain hidden from Zeno. And indeed, we can see that Future Zeno and the Grand Priest didn't give a shit about the fact that he was committing genocide across the Multiverse.

Besides, Zamasu was a genius, a master manipulator, he played Gowasu, oldest and wisest of the Supreme Kais, like a fiddle, I am certain that, had he retained his sanity, and had Zeno descovered him, he would easily be able to deceive the child-King.

[jjgp1112]

I don't have any problem with at all. It shows the extent of his petty narcissism, particularly how he wants a very specific height with several caveats.

[Nickolaidas]

Well Zamasu got immortality and Zeno erased him.

That's because Zamasu didn't take into account the fact that the Goku of an alternate timeline:

- Became friends with Zeno;
- Received the Zeno Button;
- Managed to keep said Button despite all the crap he went through.

Zamasu was very careful. As we can see from the manga, he knew that he was immortal, but he still went to extreme lengths to remain hidden from Zeno. And indeed, we can see that Future Zeno and the Grand Priest didn't give a shit about the fact that he was committing genocide across the Multiverse.

Besides, Zamasu was a genius, a master manipulator, he played Gowasu, oldest and wisest of the Supreme Kais, like a fiddle, I am certain that, had he retained his sanity, and had Zeno descovered him, he would easily be able to deceive the child-King.

Nobody said or insinuated that your idol's plan was flawed.

They simply said that immortality means jack shit when Zeno can simply erase you.

And I wouldn't call Zamasu a master manipulator just because Gowasu was ten times more gullible than Goku.

Now that I’ve (reluctantly) read the spoilers for the upcoming movie, the big thing that I’m iffy about is what they apparently did with Freeza. So, apparently Freeza’s entire goal in Dragon Ball Super: Broly is to use the Dragon Balls to become five centimeters taller. Needless to say, that’s a pretty goofy concept for a wish, especially if it’s more or less the basis for the conflict of the movie, and I’ve seen conflicting opinions on whether or not something like this ruins Freeza. On one hand, I’ve seen people argue that it works with how petty and childish Freeza often behaves, and that it feels like classic Toriyama. On the other hand, I’ve seen people argue that it’s completely out of character for Freeza to care that much about his height, and that his entire motivation being predicated on something as silly as that will make the character difficult to take seriously moving forward.

Personally, I’m currently in the latter camp. While I do like that Freeza’s motivation isn’t just that he wants to be immortal again, the idea that the entire catalyst for the plot of the movie is that Freeza wants to gain a minuscule amount of height, just seems ridiculous. Sure, the Dragon Ball franchise is no stranger to silly villains, but Freeza has never really been one of them. Outside of the filler moments from after he was killed by Trunks, he’s always been played pretty seriously, and was responsible for some of the darkest moments of the original manga. Yeah, he did have a sense of humor, but unless we’re talking about the FUNimation dub, he was never portrayed as a straight up goofball.

Between his silly wish and the fact that he supposedly spends a good chunk of the film being a punching bag for Broly, I’m getting the impression that Freeza is going to end up being like Team Rocket, where he’s a recurring villain who’s often played for laughs, and who is more of an inconvenience for the protagonists than a true threat, and I can’t say I like the idea of that. If that’s what they’re going for, I think I would’ve preferred for them to have just kept him dead.

Anyway, what does everyone else have to say about it?

The wish is a cherry on top for Frieza. Broly killing Goku and Vegeta is the plan.

Now, on paper the wish sounds moronic, but maybe the execution in the dialogue may improve the - aw, who am I kidding, it's lame as f*&k.

But like another poster said, a silly gag isn't enough to dissuade me from utterly loving what Super is doing with Frieza. If someone would tell me 20 years ago that Frieza would become a regular frenemy of the gang, I wouldn't believe it. Yet here we have it, and so far I'm loving it.

And seriously, I do not - for the life of me - understand all these posters who claim that they're sick of Frieza when other characters have overstayed their welcome a lot more and offer nothing new to the show. At least what they're doing with Frieza is original. I think that right now, after the ToP and this movie - even moreso due to the silly wish - he's the most unpredictable character in the show.

[SupremeKai25]

They simply said that immortality means jack shit when Zeno can simply erase you.

And Zeno erasing you means jackshit because the stars would have to align for Zeno to even give a crap about you. He is so stupid that he didn't even realize that Zamasu was committing genocide across the cosmos. So, if I were a villain in Dragon Ball, why would I care about Zeno?

[Nickolaidas]

They simply said that immortality means jack shit when Zeno can simply erase you.

And Zeno erasing you means jackshit because the stars would have to align for Zeno to even give a crap about you. He is so stupid that he didn't even realize that Zamasu was committing genocide across the cosmos. So, if I were a villain in Dragon Ball, why would I care about Zeno?

And whoopie-dee-do, aligned they did.

[SupremeKai25]

They simply said that immortality means jack shit when Zeno can simply erase you.

And Zeno erasing you means jackshit because the stars would have to align for Zeno to even give a crap about you. He is so stupid that he didn't even realize that Zamasu was committing genocide across the cosmos. So, if I were a villain in Dragon Ball, why would I care about Zeno?

And whoopie-dee-do, aligned they did.

Yes, because the bad guy can't win. Logically, after all the times he was punched, kicked and blasted in that arc, he should have lost the Zeno Button from his stupid pockets. Of course the stars aligned in a show about the good guys winning, but from an in-universe perspective, not even Vegeta, Goku's closest friend, knew about the existence of the Zeno Button, so why would Zamasu?

As a result, Freeza really has nothing to worry about. Besides, if he becomes immortal, he could still be erased by Zeno, but if he manages to ravage Earth, the stupid Zeno who doesn't like ugly worlds will erase everything, therefore Freeza will have the last laugh. Just like Infinite Zamasu.