Power in DB; What Happens Now? (Spoilers with Broly movie inside so beware)

[superfan2024]

This post may sound like a joke, but please bear with me now.

I know this is a talk by many, but now i'm starting to get concerned. Yes, throughout all of Dragon Ball, we have known that Goku has been an exceptionally strong person, but now we have reached to the point where I think he has gotten too strong. He is now at the levels of Gods. From the Piccolo-Freeza Arc, we knew that Goku was always the person who had the strongest power out of the rest of the Dragon Team, but there was still ways for the others to be relevant with their own strengths and techniques. I adore the Boo Arc especially because it was one of only times where Goku wasn't the strongest hero; we had Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan surpassing Goku. With Battle of Gods, things took an exponential turn; God power. With God power, Goku has now leaped to new heights that no other fighter could obtain other than Vegeta (at least from what we've seen). The issue with this however, is that every new major opponent is supposed to be stronger or at least more "trickier" (i.e. Hit) from the previous major opponent. To abide from this exponential leap in power, Toriyama made Freeza's Golden Form. In the ToP Arc, Jiren was just some insanely powerful guy who just had no damn limit (at least in the manga and sometimes in the anime). In Broly, Goku and Vegeta have been proven to be helpless against Broly and their last resort was fusion. Even Freeza, the guy who was given a major power boost in RoF, was a punching bag. Now what? Are the next villains going to be stronger? Are people like Krillin and Tien just 100 percent irrelevant unless if they're battling unimportant henchman (RoF) or fodder (ToP)? Has Goku gotten too strong? Was it a mistake to bring the whole "Super Saiyan God" concept in BoG?

Like, now i'm seeing people rage and complain how it's bogus how Goku and Vegeta have gotten taken down by a laser-gun in our first couple of panels in the new Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc because they are "supposed to be too powerful for little things like that."

[RecolorSaiyan]

This post may sound like a joke, but please bear with me now.

I know this is a talk by many, but now i'm starting to get concerned. Yes, throughout all of Dragon Ball, we have known that Goku has been an exceptionally strong person, but now we have reached to the point where I think he has gotten too strong. He is now at the levels of Gods. From the Piccolo-Freeza Arc, we knew that Goku was always the person who had the strongest power out of the rest of the Dragon Team, but there was still ways for the others to be relevant with their own strengths and techniques. I adore the Boo Arc especially because it was one of only times where Goku wasn't the strongest hero; we had Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan surpassing Goku. With Battle of Gods, things took an exponential turn; God power. With God power, Goku has now leaped to new heights that no other fighter could obtain other than Vegeta (at least from what we've seen). The issue with this however, is that every new major opponent is supposed to be stronger or at least more "trickier" (i.e. Hit) from the previous major opponent. To abide from this exponential leap in power, Toriyama made Freeza's Golden Form. In the ToP Arc, Jiren was just some insanely powerful guy who just had no damn limit (at least in the manga and sometimes in the anime). In Broly, Goku and Vegeta have been proven to be helpless against Broly and their last resort was fusion. Even Freeza, the guy who was given a major power boost in RoF, was a punching bag. Now what? Are the next villains going to be stronger? Are people like Krillin and Tien just 100 percent irrelevant unless if they're battling unimportant henchman (RoF) or fodder (ToP)? Has Goku gotten too strong? Was it a mistake to bring the whole "Super Saiyan God" concept in BoG?

Like, now i'm seeing people rage and complain how it's bogus how Goku and Vegeta have gotten taken down by a laser-gun in our first couple of panels in the new Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc because they are "supposed to be too powerful for little things like that."

Did these people not watch RoF? Did they miss the part where a normal bullet scratched goku before the ToP?

[superfan2024]

This post may sound like a joke, but please bear with me now.

I know this is a talk by many, but now i'm starting to get concerned. Yes, throughout all of Dragon Ball, we have known that Goku has been an exceptionally strong person, but now we have reached to the point where I think he has gotten too strong. He is now at the levels of Gods. From the Piccolo-Freeza Arc, we knew that Goku was always the person who had the strongest power out of the rest of the Dragon Team, but there was still ways for the others to be relevant with their own strengths and techniques. I adore the Boo Arc especially because it was one of only times where Goku wasn't the strongest hero; we had Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan surpassing Goku. With Battle of Gods, things took an exponential turn; God power. With God power, Goku has now leaped to new heights that no other fighter could obtain other than Vegeta (at least from what we've seen). The issue with this however, is that every new major opponent is supposed to be stronger or at least more "trickier" (i.e. Hit) from the previous major opponent. To abide from this exponential leap in power, Toriyama made Freeza's Golden Form. In the ToP Arc, Jiren was just some insanely powerful guy who just had no damn limit (at least in the manga and sometimes in the anime). In Broly, Goku and Vegeta have been proven to be helpless against Broly and their last resort was fusion. Even Freeza, the guy who was given a major power boost in RoF, was a punching bag. Now what? Are the next villains going to be stronger? Are people like Krillin and Tien just 100 percent irrelevant unless if they're battling unimportant henchman (RoF) or fodder (ToP)? Has Goku gotten too strong? Was it a mistake to bring the whole "Super Saiyan God" concept in BoG?

Like, now i'm seeing people rage and complain how it's bogus how Goku and Vegeta have gotten taken down by a laser-gun in our first couple of panels in the new Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc because they are "supposed to be too powerful for little things like that."

Did these people not watch RoF? Did they miss the part where a normal bullet scratched goku before the ToP?

I honestly have no idea

[MKCSTEALTH]

I don't think Super Saiyan God was a mistake. I think trying to introduce the concept of "a mortal even a GoD can beat" really muddied the waters. Because before Beerus was that goal post. Now Jiren comes along and he's supposed to be this mortal even a GoD can beat. Then Broly comes along and is supposed to be stronger than Jiren. It's become a mess

[BWri]

I don't think Super Saiyan God was a mistake. I think trying to introduce the concept of "a mortal even a GoD can beat" really muddied the waters. Because before Beerus was that goal post. Now Jiren comes along and he's supposed to be this mortal even a GoD can beat. Then Broly comes along and is supposed to be stronger than Jiren. It's become a mess

I knew as soon as Jiren was introduced that it would mess things up. Jiren did to Super what Frieza did to Z and there was really no reason to make him that strong. There are like eight tiers of strength between himself and the original SSB Goku that entered the ToP. Of course, Goku and Vegeta had to get their new zenkai in the midst of battle ability to keep up with this, on top of brand new forms, but it really wasn't called for. Did more harm than good IMO especially if there's another ToP and all the weak characters have to yoyo back towards the top to make the fights more interesting. Its just a vicious cycle of ass-pulls for no discernable reason. And of course, EVERY new villain has to be stronger than the last with the refreshing exception of Frieza after BoG who still needed an asspull powerup to keep up so I guess that's still the same problem.

[TheOne]

I don't think Super Saiyan God was a mistake. I think trying to introduce the concept of "a mortal even a GoD can beat" really muddied the waters. Because before Beerus was that goal post. Now Jiren comes along and he's supposed to be this mortal even a GoD can beat. Then Broly comes along and is supposed to be stronger than Jiren. It's become a mess

I knew as soon as Jiren was introduced that it would mess things up. Jiren did to Super what Frieza did to Z and there was really no reason to make him that strong. There are like eight tiers of strength between himself and the original SSB Goku that entered the ToP. Of course, Goku and Vegeta had to get their new zenkai in the midst of battle ability to keep up with this, on top of brand new forms, but it really wasn't called for. Did more harm than good IMO especially if there's another ToP and all the weak characters have to yoyo back towards the top to make the fights more interesting. Its just a vicious cycle of ass-pulls for no discernable reason. And of course, EVERY new villain has to be stronger than the last with the refreshing exception of Frieza after BoG who still needed an asspull powerup to keep up so I guess that's still the same problem.

This is why I was in complete disbelief that Jiren turned out to be the mortal stronger than a/his God of Destruction. It was way too soon for someone like that to appear. I honestly thought they were referring to someone in a future arc. I gave Toei and Toriyama way too much credit. After finding that out, my standards for this series took a huge nose dive. I really do have to question the intelligence of the people working on the series. Toriyama included. This is the same guy who supposedly forgot all about Broly and now they’ve made a new movie about him... Not to mention there have been various times throughout the Super series that I questioned whether or not the people working on this series were actually fans of the tv show. Or if they just vaguely knew about it and needed the money.

If they wanted to extend this series like we think they do, they shouldn’t be having people hit these ceilings so dang fast. That’s what I admire about One Piece. 800 plus episodes in and Luffy has still not become king of the pirates.

[Kataphrut]

Toriyama has never planned ahead when it comes to power. Everything is always "the strongest ever/has no limits". The only thing Super has done different is introduce an upper tier of characters who aren't meant to be surpassed in the short term, starting with Beerus and everyone above him.

The funny thing is, Beerus still hasn't been definitively surpassed. Defeating Jiren took multiple rounds in Ultra Instinct, a state Goku can't consciously access yet, plus backup from Vegeta, 17 and Freeza wearing him down. Defeating Broly (who might not even be as strong as Beerus or Jiren despite the fuss) takes fusion. There hasn't been much to suggest that the characters are moving all that fast compared to the old days, they've just got more tools.

[superfan2024]

At this point, Vegetto or Gogeta could take down Beerus.

[Lionel]

The fact Beerus seems to remain an ever stagnant benchmark who lethargically neglects his training is a small silver lining that I believe makes this more tolerable. Goku, Vegeta and other aspiring mortals have had a straight shot to achieving a power status comparable to the Hakaishin without any counterbalancing efforts to maintain the gap for the longest time. It still doesn't take away from the general aversion towards one mortal after the next sprouting up from the ground to challenge him.

[ankokudaishogun]

I knew as soon as Jiren was introduced that it would mess things up. Jiren did to Super what Frieza did to Z and there was really no reason to make him that strong. There are like eight tiers of strength between himself and the original SSB Goku that entered the ToP. Of course, Goku and Vegeta had to get their new zenkai in the midst of battle ability to keep up with this, on top of brand new forms, but it really wasn't called fo

I wholly agree. I love Anime Jiren, but TOEI made him just WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too strong.
I find hard to believe Beerus being anything even close to him

In the manga the power of Blue+UI-as-technique was enough to rival with Jiren, suggesting Belmod didn't have it and Beerus having it would put him higher enough if given a similar power.
I personally find it makes Jiren, and therefore Belmod and Beerus, too weak

That said, they can easily state Beerus started training again, mastered Ultra Instinct and learned to sing as soprano to keep him relevant as goal.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball and Sorting Algorithm Of Evil go hand in hand. It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but the next antagonists will always be more dramatically powerful than the last. Because that is only way Dragon Ball knows how to build up a major threat and escalate the stakes.

If a story like Dragon Ball is to have any kind of tension or to properly emphasis the presence and power of any of the new characters, especially if it's the central antagonist, the power scaling by default has to inflate. Whether it happens artificially or naturally, isn't really a major issue. But it has to happen. It all made all the more apparent with how the central antagonist of Saiyan arc (Vegeta) has a BP of 18,000 and the central antagonist of the next arc (Freeza) has BP of 530,000 in just his first from. Then in the next arc, we had Cell threatening to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that, we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by screaming. It's insane to think about.

I'm not even mad in the slightest about Jiren being stronger than a Hakaishin. Something like that was bound to happen. Besides, at this stage, surpassing a God is old news in Dragon Ball. The main cast having be surprising the Gods since the 23rd WMAT arc.

[BWri]

Toriyama has never planned ahead when it comes to power. Everything is always "the strongest ever/has no limits". The only thing Super has done different is introduce an upper tier of characters who aren't meant to be surpassed in the short term, starting with Beerus and everyone above him.

The funny thing is, Beerus still hasn't been definitively surpassed. Defeating Jiren took multiple rounds in Ultra Instinct, a state Goku can't consciously access yet, plus backup from Vegeta, 17 and Freeza wearing him down. Defeating Broly (who might not even be as strong as Beerus or Jiren despite the fuss) takes fusion. There hasn't been much to suggest that the characters are moving all that fast compared to the old days, they've just got more tools.

I am also of the opinion that Beerus hasn't been surpassed by the mortals yet. I think that there's quite a lot of evidence of Beerus being the strongest GoD.

That's an interesting point about Broly maybe not being stronger than Jiren. Since UI isn't in the movie, we have no way to judge it compared to a fusion like Gogeta so it is definitely something for us to think about. UI Omen was able to solo Kefla, but I never really thought Kefla was close to Vegetto's league of power.

If they wanted to extend this series like we think they do, they shouldn’t be having people hit these ceilings so dang fast. That’s what I admire about One Piece. 800 plus episodes in and Luffy has still not become king of the pirates.

Agreed. A little forethought into balancing the power tiers for current and future arcs would be nice and would extend the life of the series IMO, but the days for that are long gone. I remember when Goku and Vegeta were talking about reaching limits just before the Tournament of Destroyers. I was looking forward to that so the series could catch up to itself and fights could once more start focusing on techniques and strategy. The ToP gave us some of that, but the emphasis was still on power, power rapidly increasing in battle, and power rapidly increasing with transformations.

800 plus episodes in and Luffy has still not become king of the pirates.

I will say that Toriyama does a great job with Goku in this regard. The man never really outright wins, so there is always something more for him to grasp even when he becomes the strongest. He technically lost to Hit before in an even fight, then trained his butt off and surpassed him. With Jiren at least, Goku's still definitely weaker than him unless he learns to access UI at will. Vegeta follows suit with Goku, since he's forever meant to be #2, so they always at least have something to chase even when they're close to the top.

[BWri]

That said, they can easily state Beerus started training again, mastered Ultra Instinct and learned to sing as soprano to keep him relevant as goal.

That's what I like about Beerus. I hope he does this. Perhaps the next threat will force his hand and make him train again.

I'm curious though, how would people prefer to see Beerus' return to domination? Would you prefer Beerus train up and finally have his duel with Goku? Would you want this to be the conclusion of Super? Or would you prefer that the show keeps going so Goku and Vegeta can surpass the Angels and GP?

On the flip side of that, would it be more preferable for Beerus to get serious about his training to fight the next antagonist?

I like the idea of Beerus getting serious to fight a threatening antagonist, but with the DB formula I don't see him winning if something like that happens and it would be sad to see Beerus lose to someone other than Goku. I'd prefer he go out on a bang since he is the character that jumpstarted the modern era.

[Kataphrut]

Toriyama has never planned ahead when it comes to power. Everything is always "the strongest ever/has no limits". The only thing Super has done different is introduce an upper tier of characters who aren't meant to be surpassed in the short term, starting with Beerus and everyone above him.

The funny thing is, Beerus still hasn't been definitively surpassed. Defeating Jiren took multiple rounds in Ultra Instinct, a state Goku can't consciously access yet, plus backup from Vegeta, 17 and Freeza wearing him down. Defeating Broly (who might not even be as strong as Beerus or Jiren despite the fuss) takes fusion. There hasn't been much to suggest that the characters are moving all that fast compared to the old days, they've just got more tools.

I am also of the opinion that Beerus hasn't been surpassed by the mortals yet. I think that there's quite a lot of evidence of Beerus being the strongest GoD.

That's an interesting point about Broly maybe not being stronger than Jiren. Since UI isn't in the movie, we have no way to judge it compared to a fusion like Gogeta so it is definitely something for us to think about. UI Omen was able to solo Kefla, but I never really thought Kefla was close to Vegetto's league of power.

That's the fun thing about a multiverse setting: it's very difficult to scale the different enemies against each other because they all come from different contexts. There isn't as clear a line of progression from weakest to strongest like in Z. If you want to scale Broly and Jiren, the only thing they have in common is that they can both handle two SSBs without much effort. After that it becomes a different ball game with Kaioken Blue, Evolution and Ultra Instinct for Jiren, and Base/SS/SSB Gogeta for Broly. How does Gogeta Blue compare to MUI Goku? Who knows, only thing they have in common is they can both beat the big beef mutant.