Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:49 am

SSJ4 is related to saiyan origins and mixes their primal Oozaru transformation with legendary Super Saiyan transformation making ultimate form.

God forms simply do not fit as ultimate form. God ki is something new to saiyans, something that has to be earned and what's more important - can be earned by ANYONE, not only saiyans. So answer is rather simple. SSJB is saiyan power mixed with additional god power that isn't exclusive to this race. It's a big improvement of saiyan power, but it's not natural evolution.

It doesn't really matter which form is stronger in this case, SSJ4 wins.
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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:14 am

Maybe none of them.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by lancerman » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:11 am

SSJ4 is a decent concept that looks stupid. Okay you want to go for a monkey motif to harken back to Oozaru? Sounds sensible. Red fur, magic pants, eyeliners and 80's hair metal mane. Yeah it looks like someone was listening to too much Motley Crue

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by lancerman » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:13 am

Rakurai wrote:
SuperNingenGod wrote:Super Saiyan Blue KK, the most aesthetically pleasing and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct.
SSJ4 has a good concept but the execution looks terribly bad, eye liners, fur coat, magical clothes appear out of nowhere when transforming and that annoying tail are simply a joke.
I can do this too with selective gifs.

Super Saiyan 4 the most awesome, ferocious, and creative form and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct:

Image

SSB has good concept with god ki but the recolor looks terribly bad and lazy, blue is an absolutely random hair color, doesn't match well with their clothes and that blob aura it emits is simply annoying.

Image
The difference is that he didn't really use a bad image or bad lighting. You used an off model pick of Super Saiyan blue to show it was worse and then used a picture of SSJ4 that had darkened lighting and used the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. Even in your picture for SSJ4 the reason it looks good is because the picture goes out of it's way to hide how busy the form is as opposed to accentuating it.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:49 pm

PFM18 wrote:
DragonBallFan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:SSBE is the ultimate Saiyan transformation. Divine Ki combined with SSJ to form SSB, and then mutated to break the limits of that transformation. A literal divine transformation screams more "Ultimate" to me than being a monkey with red fur, even if the SSJ4 form is a more aesthetically creative transformation.
All it is really is Second Grade Super Saiyan with God Power.
No, not really. It may aesthetically resemble it slightly, but it is otherwise not similar in any way.
How is it not? It’s a slightly different shade of blue and he gets bulkier. Just like grade 2 is pretty much a bulkier SS1.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:52 pm

lancerman wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
SuperNingenGod wrote:Super Saiyan Blue KK, the most aesthetically pleasing and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct.
SSJ4 has a good concept but the execution looks terribly bad, eye liners, fur coat, magical clothes appear out of nowhere when transforming and that annoying tail are simply a joke.
I can do this too with selective gifs.

Super Saiyan 4 the most awesome, ferocious, and creative form and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct:

Image

SSB has good concept with god ki but the recolor looks terribly bad and lazy, blue is an absolutely random hair color, doesn't match well with their clothes and that blob aura it emits is simply annoying.

Image
The difference is that he didn't really use a bad image or bad lighting. You used an off model pick of Super Saiyan blue to show it was worse and then used a picture of SSJ4 that had darkened lighting and used the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. Even in your picture for SSJ4 the reason it looks good is because the picture goes out of it's way to hide how busy the form is as opposed to accentuating it.
That’s exactly what you did though. He was just doing the opposite to make a point. You picked a powerful picture of Blue with dynamic shading and using your own words, “using the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. And then for SS4 you used a picture from one of the poorly drawn episodes.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:00 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
DragonBallFan wrote: All it is really is Second Grade Super Saiyan with God Power.
No, not really. It may aesthetically resemble it slightly, but it is otherwise not similar in any way.
How is it not? It’s a slightly different shade of blue and he gets bulkier. Just like grade 2 is pretty much a bulkier SS1.
Grade 2 is just a reflection of using Ki to increase your muscles/brute strength, where as SSBE is a complete evolution of the form by breaking one's limits, that increases overall power dozens of times, rather than Grade 2 which only increases power marginally over Grade 1. In concept, they aren't similar at all. "Grade 2 with God power" is false.

They aren't even really similar aesthetically, Grade 2 just makes you more muscular while SSBE changes the color of your hair, the aura's color, the nature of the aura, and most importantly, it's most defining physical feature is that it adds pupils to Vegeta's eyes.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Rakurai » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:42 pm

lancerman wrote:
The difference is that he didn't really use a bad image or bad lighting. You used an off model pick of Super Saiyan blue to show it was worse and then used a picture of SSJ4 that had darkened lighting and used the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. Even in your picture for SSJ4 the reason it looks good is because the picture goes out of it's way to hide how busy the form is as opposed to accentuating it.
Are we looking at the same gifs? The person I originally responded literally used a gif with SSB-KK's red-blue aura to validate his "aesthetic" claim. Then used an off-model of SSJ4 Vegeta reverting back to base to show it was way worse. I just did the same thing he did to counter his point and show how stupid it was to compare them like that.
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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Dbzk1999 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
I can do this too with selective gifs.

Super Saiyan 4 the most awesome, ferocious, and creative form and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct:

Image

SSB has good concept with god ki but the recolor looks terribly bad and lazy, blue is an absolutely random hair color, doesn't match well with their clothes and that blob aura it emits is simply annoying.

Image
The difference is that he didn't really use a bad image or bad lighting. You used an off model pick of Super Saiyan blue to show it was worse and then used a picture of SSJ4 that had darkened lighting and used the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. Even in your picture for SSJ4 the reason it looks good is because the picture goes out of it's way to hide how busy the form is as opposed to accentuating it.
That’s exactly what you did though. He was just doing the opposite to make a point. You picked a powerful picture of Blue with dynamic shading and using your own words, “using the aura to overwhelm the aesthetic. And then for SS4 you used a picture from one of the poorly drawn episodes.
Hope you know that that is a different person. He wasn’t the one that initially posted those gifs

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:27 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote: Hope you know that that is a different person. He wasn’t the one that initially posted those gifs
Oh, my mistake then. but still.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by DragonBallFan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:56 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
No, not really. It may aesthetically resemble it slightly, but it is otherwise not similar in any way.
How is it not? It’s a slightly different shade of blue and he gets bulkier. Just like grade 2 is pretty much a bulkier SS1.
Grade 2 is just a reflection of using Ki to increase your muscles/brute strength, where as SSBE is a complete evolution of the form by breaking one's limits, that increases overall power dozens of times, rather than Grade 2 which only increases power marginally over Grade 1. In concept, they aren't similar at all. "Grade 2 with God power" is false.

They aren't even really similar aesthetically, Grade 2 just makes you more muscular while SSBE changes the color of your hair, the aura's color, the nature of the aura, and most importantly, it's most defining physical feature is that it adds pupils to Vegeta's eyes.
What are you talking about? The bulky muscles, the hair, this form screams Second Grade Super Saiyan, they just probably couldn't come up with another design, so they slapped a different aura and color over Second Grade and called it "Super Saiyan Blue Evolution".

Let's take a look;

https://imgur.com/a/4XHmzJq Take note of the hair and muscle mass.

https://imgur.com/a/NV8dQqc A bit of the hair is cut off here but you can clearly see a striking resemblance between the two forms, especially in the muscle mass.

https://imgur.com/a/eCL61QM Taking a look at the original designs for Super Vegeta,

https://imgur.com/a/yrrc4Ov and compare it to the Super Saiyan Blue Evolution designs. Because of the style of art, they don't line up here completely, but you can still see that they are pretty much the same thing.

https://imgur.com/a/2rXRqsS

https://imgur.com/a/I6q1kX5]

Overall yeah, if the creators say it's a new form then I guess it's a new form, but the visuals are pretty much Super Saiyan Grade Two with SSJ3 eyes blue. When I first saw the transformation I thought Vegeta had actually just used Grade Two with Super Saiyan God. And if I recall correctly I remember quite a few people thinking the same.

Not to mention Second Grade Super Saiyan was also a slightly different color than regular Super Saiyan, Vegeta becoming more redish on his skin and his aura and hair becoming more yellow golden.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Zelvin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:28 pm

We all know the real answer to this question. 8)
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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:28 am

DragonBallFan wrote:What are you talking about? The bulky muscles, the hair, this form screams Second Grade Super Saiyan, they just probably couldn't come up with another design, so they slapped a different aura and color over Second Grade and called it "Super Saiyan Blue Evolution".
Again, the muscles are the least defining factor. And I was mostly talking about from a concept point of view, it is absolutely nothing like Grade 2. Aesthetically it slightly resembles Grade 2, but they only have the "muscles" in common. You have the pupils, the new color, the new aura, and the muscles where as Grade 2 you just have the muscles.
and compare it to the Super Saiyan Blue Evolution designs. Because of the style of art, they don't line up here completely, but you can still see that they are pretty much the same thing.
That isn't even the final design, and not the design they went with. IIRC, that is a concept that was pulled up after the fact and not entirely the one they went with. Obviously, the hair is still the same as SSB.
Overall yeah, if the creators say it's a new form then I guess it's a new form, but the visuals are pretty much Super Saiyan Grade Two with SSJ3 eyes blue. When I first saw the transformation I thought Vegeta had actually just used Grade Two with Super Saiyan God. And if I recall correctly I remember quite a few people thinking the same.
Again, aesthetically, there's a slight resemblance. But conceptually behind the forms they have absolutely nothing in common, and there's no reason to believe that Evolution is "just SSB Grade 2."

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:27 am

PFM18 wrote: That isn't even the final design, and not the design they went with. IIRC, that is a concept that was pulled up after the fact and not entirely the one they went with.
That is the final design. It's production art that they include in the pamphlets with the DVDs in Japan, not concept art.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that they took some aesthetic inspiration from Grade 2. Definitely more than just a passing resemblance there, pupils or not.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: That isn't even the final design, and not the design they went with. IIRC, that is a concept that was pulled up after the fact and not entirely the one they went with.
That is the final design. It's production art that they include in the pamphlets with the DVDs in Japan, not concept art.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that they took some aesthetic inspiration from Grade 2. Definitely more than just a passing resemblance there, pupils or not.
It clearly isn't what they went with obviously because it still has normal SSB hair. But yeah, it does look a little like Grade 2. Still very different considering Evo changes the hair color, the aura, and adds pupils in adidtion to what Grade 2 does. In concept they aren't similar in any respect, though.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:01 pm

PFM18 wrote: It clearly isn't what they went with obviously because it still has normal SSB hair.
It's not quite that different. The anime heavily uses highlights and lowlights to give the hair a shinier texture, which results in a different shade, but most official artwork used in merchandising, promotional material, etc. either displays the same color as Yamamuro's standard design art for the form or something closer to it.

I'd say the resemblance is more than "a little". Unlike colors or auras, this stuff comprises the structural shape and body of the design.

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:25 am

I'd say the better on is SSJ4 because it combines the power of the Oozaru, the full potential of a Saiyan and the power of a Super Saiyan. 'Nuff said.
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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by DragonBallFan » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:35 am

PFM18 wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: That isn't even the final design, and not the design they went with. IIRC, that is a concept that was pulled up after the fact and not entirely the one they went with.
That is the final design. It's production art that they include in the pamphlets with the DVDs in Japan, not concept art.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that they took some aesthetic inspiration from Grade 2. Definitely more than just a passing resemblance there, pupils or not.
It clearly isn't what they went with obviously because it still has normal SSB hair. But yeah, it does look a little like Grade 2. Still very different considering Evo changes the hair color, the aura, and adds pupils in adidtion to what Grade 2 does. In concept they aren't similar in any respect, though.
The hair in some shots might look like normal SSJB, but that's the animation and art problems. The hair is bigger and sharper.

Let me ask you this: What's the difference between SSJ and SSJ2?

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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:42 pm

DragonBallFan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
That is the final design. It's production art that they include in the pamphlets with the DVDs in Japan, not concept art.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that they took some aesthetic inspiration from Grade 2. Definitely more than just a passing resemblance there, pupils or not.
It clearly isn't what they went with obviously because it still has normal SSB hair. But yeah, it does look a little like Grade 2. Still very different considering Evo changes the hair color, the aura, and adds pupils in adidtion to what Grade 2 does. In concept they aren't similar in any respect, though.
The hair in some shots might look like normal SSJB, but that's the animation and art problems. The hair is bigger and sharper.

Let me ask you this: What's the difference between SSJ and SSJ2?
The primary differences are a slight change in the hairstyle, a slight increase in muscle tone and the addition of bio electricity in the aura.
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Re: Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

Post by DragonBallFan » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:53 am

Hulk10 wrote:
DragonBallFan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
It clearly isn't what they went with obviously because it still has normal SSB hair. But yeah, it does look a little like Grade 2. Still very different considering Evo changes the hair color, the aura, and adds pupils in adidtion to what Grade 2 does. In concept they aren't similar in any respect, though.
The hair in some shots might look like normal SSJB, but that's the animation and art problems. The hair is bigger and sharper.

Let me ask you this: What's the difference between SSJ and SSJ2?
The primary differences are a slight change in the hairstyle, a slight increase in muscle tone and the addition of bio electricity in the aura.
:eh: :shh: I wanted them to answer that :P

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