zarmack wrote:1. Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu was a big moment because it was the first truly selfless thing he does in the whole franchise (as pointed out by Piccolo). That's were the emotional weight comes from. And there was no guarantee that he was going to be wished back, in part because he (like Goku) where originally intended to be dead for good. Vegeta attacking Cell after Future Trunks died was mainly about his pride being offended, nothing truly selfless there.
Yes, obviously it is a big moment. No, it is not the first selfless thing he did in the whole franchise, considering that he had just previously gone in attacking Cell after seeing his son's death, knowing that he himself was in jeopardy. He put himself on the line to avenge his son. That's pretty fucking selfless. This premise that he had never cared for his family or that he never showed compassion for someone else is just patently untrue.
You're missing the point as far as the emotional weight, is concerned. In a series, where death means absolutely nothing, and is never permanent, somebody "sacrificing" themselves automatically has less emotional weight since death doesn't have any real meaning. Death serves as a minor inconvenience in Dragon Ball. This isn't even Vegeta's first time dying. Krillin got revived THREE fucking times. Everybody watching that scene knew that Vegeta was going to come back, so it doesn't have weight. That is why Piccolo's death in GT is so compelling and has so much weight, because he was
permanently dead.
A) No where in Vegeta's speech about Goku was it ever implied that he didn't want to improve himself anymore. B) Vegeta not giving up fighting for what he cares about and him supposedly not want wanting to surpass Goku are 2 different things and priorities. Its stupid to conflate the 2.
Vegeta was admitting to being #2, and going on about how Goku is better than him and is #1. The implication was that Goku was #1
indefinitely. Therefore, Vegeta doesn't think he'll ever surpass Goku again and has given up. Or at least, that's the way the scene comes off, like I said, the finial scene in the manga contradicts this.
3. There was zero indication about him not caring about Trunks in the Buu arc. Where did you get that assumption from? Especially compared to the Android arc where he treats Trunks like shit.
Zero indication? He admits to having never hugged his kid that is 8 fucking years old. 7 years during this time-skip he didn't hug his kid. During their training session? Vegeta clearly is not concerning himself with his son, and doesn't give a shit about him. Vegeta asks Trunks to try and hit him, and instead of being proud of his son for actually accomplishing it, and having any encouragement, he gets visibly angry about it. The fact that he gets angry about Trunks hitting him tells you that he didn't do this for Trunks's sake but rather just to
stroke his ego.
Oh, and didn't you already admit that he didn't do anything selfless until the sacrifice? How can he care about his son if he has never done anything selfless for him ever up until that point? That makes 0 sense.
4. You give zero examples of Vegeta having better development in Super, especially since he doesn't actually go through any major development at all in the series and debatably regresses in some areas according to many people.
I'm not going to sit here and break down Vegeta's development for you in Super. It'll be a very long-winded post that I simply am not going to spend the time on. If you can't see his development in Super, that's not really my problem.
Moreover, considering you use logical fallacies left and right and consider my opinion "an error" apparently, I don't see this as an especially productive conversation that is worth continuing.