Things Super or a new series NEEDS to do

[BWri]

There is not a single arc in Super that was better than the 22nd TB, King Piccolo/23rd TB, Saiyan and Namek arcs in DB(Z).

I want to say that the Goku Black arc is better than one of these, but then I remember all the problems that arc had in the anime, which was better than the manga version IMO. I think the Saiyan arc has problems too, but nothing as mind-numbing as repeated trips to the past because Goku is forgetting sh*t.

Even the Buu saga is debatable.

Goku Black and ToP are both better than the Buu arc IMO. Just due to the nature of that arc being such a Saiyan sausage-fest. The gold hair was beginning to bore me to tears. Great moments though, especially Majin Vegeta and the SSJ2 fight. But this arc introduced pointless fusions, inconsistent magic, wasted villains, wasted heroes, and wasted story potential more than anything else.

And no one in Super got anywhere near the amount of character development that any of main recurring cast got in the original manga. Hell, Tien got more development when he was the main villain than Jiren did in Super (and he's one of the neglected characters of the original manga).

Tien got more development than Hit and Jiren combined in their first appearances compared to his. Hell, he had like 4x the personality as well. He only lost personality when he became a good guy. It's a shame what Toriyama ended up doing with him. Guess he got bored.

Plus, Z/Kai and early DB had a much higher number of great fight scenes than Super and with a more consistently good art style (its only when Yuyu Takahashi and Shida come in is when Super starts looking aesthetically pleasing, and that's by coping the Perfect Cell/Buu saga art style).

This one'll come down to taste, but I find many of Super's fights to be some of the best in the series. This only applies to stuff in the Goku Black arc and beyond. Super even started to make the fights tactical again, which some fights in the latter portion of Z lacked. Despite that I pretty much agree with TFS with Piccolo vs Goku, Goku vs Vegeta, Tien vs. Goku, Piccolo vs 17, Goku vs Roshi, Vegeta vs Recoome, and (my pick) Goku vs Krillin being some of the most amazing fights throughout the whole series, but notice most of those are DB or early DBZ. I think that era and late Super have the best overall fights

[Dbzfan94]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

[Lord Beerus]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

It's all subjective. Some people think there are some part of GT better than the original series. They're not inherently wrong or right. It's their opinion.

[PFM18]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

I could say the same about the Buu arc being better than the ToP. The Buu arc is a mess in pretty much every conceivable way. The ToP didn't live up to it's potential, and could have been way better, but it is infinitely better than that pile of garbage where a big pink blob shows up and aimlessly blows shit up.

[zarmack]

1. The entirety of the Zamasu arc and the ToP arcs look dramatically better than anything Z produced aesthetically. I don't see how this is even a discussion. Obviously, though, this is extremely subjective given we are talking about nothing but aesthetics.

This is such a joke. Muted, lifeless expressions, lack of any impact when characters get hit, the infamous "ATATATATA" which consisted of 2 looped frames of combatants throwing stiff punches at each other for eons to make up for a lack of choreography, recycled poses (not talking about recycled animation), lack of camera movement, etc. Sure, the Takahashi episodes looked nice (in large part because he decided to ignore the supervisor's character designs and base his own designs on the ones from Z) and so did the finale but to not see the decline in quality of animation is just downright lying. Even when Z's animation didn't have it's A team behind it, it still managed to be fluid, dynamic, and have a personality.

I frankly have no idea what you're talking about. The animation simply looks infinitely more fluid, the choreography is more dynamic, art is more detailed, it's just not even a comparison. I don't see how you can look at this objectively and come to this conclusion.

And what the fuck do you even mean by a "stiff" punch? How is one punch stiff and another isn't? Also, being "muted" has absolutely nothing to do with aesthetics. Being mute is an audio issue, not a visual one.

Oh, and my opinion is not "lying."

1. The entirety of the Zamasu arc and the ToP arcs look dramatically better than anything Z produced aesthetically. I don't see how this is even a discussion. Obviously, though, this is extremely subjective given we are talking about nothing but aesthetics.

2. That's literally my point. Super picks up a series that's intended to have ended, along with all of the corresponding character arcs. The character arcs shouldn't be judged by the shear amount in a vacuum, but rather what the story does with the "hand they are dealt" so to speak. In Super's case, they made the most out of mostly dealing with character arcs that were meant to be over. And to me, Vegeta's development, in the Buu arc at least, is extremely overrated and Super handles the continuation of his character arc way better.

3. The entire arc drags immensely. The story outstays it's welcome, especially when the main villain is painstakingly boring and just generally not compelling. During most of Buu's existence, he can't even form a coherent sentence, let alone form a menacing demeanor with substantive motivations or goals. He just kinda wants to aimlessly blow shit up, and it isn't exactly entertaining to watch it unfold.

1. This is so obviously wrong on so many levels, especially with how the Black arc falls apart in its last 4th of episodes.

2. Again, your character development argument makes little sense, and it sounds like excuse making for Super's lack of development for most the main cast. Either way, your post sounds you basically admitting that Z gave them more development than Super.

Buu saga Vegeta had more character development and better writing than literally every other character at any point in the franchise. It was the culmination of everything that happen with him since his debut reaching a boiling point, and him overcoming said boiling point then finally becoming a true hero. The only reason why Super's & GT's versions of Vegeta even exist is because of his development in the Buu saga, so its laughable to say those versions are any better. Buu saga Goku is appealing (and underrated) for similar reasons.

3. Fat Buu & Super Buu had more personality and entertainment factor than Jiren.

1. The Black arc falling apart has nothing to do with visuals. This was a conversation of aesthetics not a writing one.

2. I don't think you even comprehended my argument considering your last sentence there. This isn't a matter of "admitting" one had more character development, it's about taking the development in context, as I explained in my post.

I didn't say "those versions" were better, considering that I never even fucking mentioned GT, so I have no idea how you managed to strawman me that hard on that one. You just kind of pretended as though I argued that GT's version was better.

Considering that you don't give a single example within that arc or even a description of Vegeta's development outside of just generic conjecture, I don't see this as refuting anything being said. Vegeta at the end of the Cell arc, realizes he cares about his son when he goes and attacks Cell knowing that he had no chance after seeing him being killed. Then the Buu arc opens, and Vegeta doesn't give a shit about Trunks all of a sudden, and only kind of uses him as a tool for bragging rights. Then, Vegeta "sacrifices" himself in a series where death means absolutely nothing, where the "sacrifice" accomplishes nothing and has no emotional weight considering everyone and their mother knew he would be revived. In the final fight of the arc, Vegeta shows time and time again against Kid Buu, that he isn't going to give up, no matter the odds. He just kept getting up and continuing to fight, no matter how beaten he got. He just wouldn't give up, and the scene actually displays this well. Then he turns around and goes on about seemingly giving up on surpassing his rival, when we had just established a moment prior that Vegeta never gives up. It's fucking retarded. Oh, and the last line of the manga Vegeta says "I will surpass you one day Kakarot" so it doesn't even stay consistent with later events. Vegeta's development in Super is simply more compelling IMO.

3. Even if that were true, it's a moot point because the ToP arc does not revolve around Jiren the same way the Buu arc does. Buu has way more focus, so his character has a much larger impact on the merit of the arc. The ToP arc has 79 other fighters playing a role, even if Jiren is the main antagonist.

But hey, at least this time you only used one logical fallacy instead of two.

There are so many errors here that I've lost count.

1. Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu was a big moment because it was the first truly selfless thing he does in the whole franchise (as pointed out by Piccolo). That's were the emotional weight comes from. And there was no guarantee that he was going to be wished back, in part because he (like Goku) where originally intended to be dead for good. Vegeta attacking Cell after Future Trunks died was mainly about his pride being offended, nothing truly selfless there.

2. "In the final fight of the arc, Vegeta shows time and time again against Kid Buu, that he isn't going to give up, no matter the odds. He just kept getting up and continuing to fight, no matter how beaten he got. He just wouldn't give up, and the scene actually displays this well. Then he turns around and goes on about seemingly giving up on surpassing his rival, when we had just established a moment prior that Vegeta never gives up. It's fucking retarded.

This is a weak argument.

A) No where in Vegeta's speech about Goku was it ever implied that he didn't want to improve himself anymore. B) Vegeta not giving up fighting for what he cares about and him supposedly not want wanting to surpass Goku are 2 different things and priorities. Its stupid to conflate the 2.

3. There was zero indication about him not caring about Trunks in the Buu arc. Where did you get that assumption from? Especially compared to the Android arc where he treats Trunks like shit.

4. You give zero examples of Vegeta having better development in Super, especially since he doesn't actually go through any major development at all in the series and debatably regresses in some areas according to many people.

[PFM18]

1. Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu was a big moment because it was the first truly selfless thing he does in the whole franchise (as pointed out by Piccolo). That's were the emotional weight comes from. And there was no guarantee that he was going to be wished back, in part because he (like Goku) where originally intended to be dead for good. Vegeta attacking Cell after Future Trunks died was mainly about his pride being offended, nothing truly selfless there.

Yes, obviously it is a big moment. No, it is not the first selfless thing he did in the whole franchise, considering that he had just previously gone in attacking Cell after seeing his son's death, knowing that he himself was in jeopardy. He put himself on the line to avenge his son. That's pretty fucking selfless. This premise that he had never cared for his family or that he never showed compassion for someone else is just patently untrue.

You're missing the point as far as the emotional weight, is concerned. In a series, where death means absolutely nothing, and is never permanent, somebody "sacrificing" themselves automatically has less emotional weight since death doesn't have any real meaning. Death serves as a minor inconvenience in Dragon Ball. This isn't even Vegeta's first time dying. Krillin got revived THREE fucking times. Everybody watching that scene knew that Vegeta was going to come back, so it doesn't have weight. That is why Piccolo's death in GT is so compelling and has so much weight, because he was permanently dead.

A) No where in Vegeta's speech about Goku was it ever implied that he didn't want to improve himself anymore. B) Vegeta not giving up fighting for what he cares about and him supposedly not want wanting to surpass Goku are 2 different things and priorities. Its stupid to conflate the 2.

Vegeta was admitting to being #2, and going on about how Goku is better than him and is #1. The implication was that Goku was #1 indefinitely. Therefore, Vegeta doesn't think he'll ever surpass Goku again and has given up. Or at least, that's the way the scene comes off, like I said, the finial scene in the manga contradicts this.

3. There was zero indication about him not caring about Trunks in the Buu arc. Where did you get that assumption from? Especially compared to the Android arc where he treats Trunks like shit.

Zero indication? He admits to having never hugged his kid that is 8 fucking years old. 7 years during this time-skip he didn't hug his kid. During their training session? Vegeta clearly is not concerning himself with his son, and doesn't give a shit about him. Vegeta asks Trunks to try and hit him, and instead of being proud of his son for actually accomplishing it, and having any encouragement, he gets visibly angry about it. The fact that he gets angry about Trunks hitting him tells you that he didn't do this for Trunks's sake but rather just to stroke his ego.

Oh, and didn't you already admit that he didn't do anything selfless until the sacrifice? How can he care about his son if he has never done anything selfless for him ever up until that point? That makes 0 sense.

4. You give zero examples of Vegeta having better development in Super, especially since he doesn't actually go through any major development at all in the series and debatably regresses in some areas according to many people.

I'm not going to sit here and break down Vegeta's development for you in Super. It'll be a very long-winded post that I simply am not going to spend the time on. If you can't see his development in Super, that's not really my problem.

Moreover, considering you use logical fallacies left and right and consider my opinion "an error" apparently, I don't see this as an especially productive conversation that is worth continuing.

[Dbzfan94]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

I could say the same about the Buu arc being better than the ToP. The Buu arc is a mess in pretty much every conceivable way. The ToP didn't live up to it's potential, and could have been way better, but it is infinitely better than that pile of garbage where a big pink blob shows up and aimlessly blows shit up.

I don’t want to start an endless back and forth with you on this, but I can’t disagree more if you think Buu saga is a mess but ToP isnt

[PFM18]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

I could say the same about the Buu arc being better than the ToP. The Buu arc is a mess in pretty much every conceivable way. The ToP didn't live up to it's potential, and could have been way better, but it is infinitely better than that pile of garbage where a big pink blob shows up and aimlessly blows shit up.

I don’t want to start an endless back and forth with you on this, but I can’t disagree more if you think Buu saga is a mess but ToP isnt

Alright. That's cool

[AnimeNation101]

ToP being better than the Buu saga is laughable at best

I could say the same about the Buu arc being better than the ToP. The Buu arc is a mess in pretty much every conceivable way. The ToP didn't live up to it's potential, and could have been way better, but it is infinitely better than that pile of garbage where a big pink blob shows up and aimlessly blows shit up.

I don’t want to start an endless back and forth with you on this, but I can’t disagree more if you think Buu saga is a mess but ToP isnt

Its not as much a mess as it is an arc thats too predictable (there were some surprises by still) with, rather than an actual Battle Royale, we get every universe lining up to take on U7 with the only universes that really matter being U7, U6, and U11, with the ending being predictable, and with there being no serious repercussions caused by the arc.

[SaiyanGod117]

While DB Super undoubtedly had some cool scenes and episodes, it's the worst written DB Series by far.

[PFM18]

I could say the same about the Buu arc being better than the ToP. The Buu arc is a mess in pretty much every conceivable way. The ToP didn't live up to it's potential, and could have been way better, but it is infinitely better than that pile of garbage where a big pink blob shows up and aimlessly blows shit up.

I don’t want to start an endless back and forth with you on this, but I can’t disagree more if you think Buu saga is a mess but ToP isnt

Its not as much a mess as it is an arc thats too predictable (there were some surprises by still) with, rather than an actual Battle Royale, we get every universe lining up to take on U7 with the only universes that really matter being U7, U6, and U11, with the ending being predictable, and with there being no serious repercussions caused by the arc.

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

[zarmack]

1. Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu was a big moment because it was the first truly selfless thing he does in the whole franchise (as pointed out by Piccolo). That's were the emotional weight comes from. And there was no guarantee that he was going to be wished back, in part because he (like Goku) where originally intended to be dead for good. Vegeta attacking Cell after Future Trunks died was mainly about his pride being offended, nothing truly selfless there.

Yes, obviously it is a big moment. No, it is not the first selfless thing he did in the whole franchise, considering that he had just previously gone in attacking Cell after seeing his son's death, knowing that he himself was in jeopardy. He put himself on the line to avenge his son. That's pretty fucking selfless. This premise that he had never cared for his family or that he never showed compassion for someone else is just patently untrue.

You're missing the point as far as the emotional weight, is concerned. In a series, where death means absolutely nothing, and is never permanent, somebody "sacrificing" themselves automatically has less emotional weight since death doesn't have any real meaning. Death serves as a minor inconvenience in Dragon Ball. This isn't even Vegeta's first time dying. Krillin got revived THREE fucking times. Everybody watching that scene knew that Vegeta was going to come back, so it doesn't have weight. That is why Piccolo's death in GT is so compelling and has so much weight, because he was permanently dead.

A) No where in Vegeta's speech about Goku was it ever implied that he didn't want to improve himself anymore. B) Vegeta not giving up fighting for what he cares about and him supposedly not want wanting to surpass Goku are 2 different things and priorities. Its stupid to conflate the 2.

Vegeta was admitting to being #2, and going on about how Goku is better than him and is #1. The implication was that Goku was #1 indefinitely. Therefore, Vegeta doesn't think he'll ever surpass Goku again and has given up. Or at least, that's the way the scene comes off, like I said, the finial scene in the manga contradicts this.

3. There was zero indication about him not caring about Trunks in the Buu arc. Where did you get that assumption from? Especially compared to the Android arc where he treats Trunks like shit.

Zero indication? He admits to having never hugged his kid that is 8 fucking years old. 7 years during this time-skip he didn't hug his kid. During their training session? Vegeta clearly is not concerning himself with his son, and doesn't give a shit about him. Vegeta asks Trunks to try and hit him, and instead of being proud of his son for actually accomplishing it, and having any encouragement, he gets visibly angry about it. The fact that he gets angry about Trunks hitting him tells you that he didn't do this for Trunks's sake but rather just to stroke his ego.

Oh, and didn't you already admit that he didn't do anything selfless until the sacrifice? How can he care about his son if he has never done anything selfless for him ever up until that point? That makes 0 sense.

4. You give zero examples of Vegeta having better development in Super, especially since he doesn't actually go through any major development at all in the series and debatably regresses in some areas according to many people.

I'm not going to sit here and break down Vegeta's development for you in Super. It'll be a very long-winded post that I simply am not going to spend the time on. If you can't see his development in Super, that's not really my problem.

Moreover, considering you use logical fallacies left and right and consider my opinion "an error" apparently, I don't see this as an especially productive conversation that is worth continuing.

1. Vegeta even says in the original japanese version after Trunks dies that he's attack Cell for offending his pride. That's not all the selfless at all. And after the fight with Cell is over he doesn't even think about Trunks, only about Goku.

2. Piccolo's death in GT is mostly dismissed by most of the fandom because A) its was completely unnecessary (they could have just destroyed the Black Star balls), B) there was no character development behind it, and C) its another example of GT mishandling a character. So that's a bad example.

3. "Zero indication? He admits to having never hugged his kid that is 8 fucking years old. 7 years during this time-skip he didn't hug his kid. During their training session? Vegeta clearly is not concerning himself with his son, and doesn't give a shit about him. Vegeta asks Trunks to try and hit him, and instead of being proud of his son for actually accomplishing it, and having any encouragement, he gets visibly angry about it. The fact that he gets angry about Trunks hitting him tells you that he didn't do this for Trunks's sake but rather just to stroke his ego.

Oh, and didn't you already admit that he didn't do anything selfless until the sacrifice? How can he care about his son if he has never done anything selfless for him ever up until that point? That makes 0 sense. "

You forget that A) Vegeta sends Trunks to the park like he promised after their sparring match, B) Vegeta hugging Trunks was the first time (and one of the few times in the whole franchise) we see any on-screen affection from Vegeta. He's never do anything comparable before the Buu arc, and rarely in Super. C) Vegeta is not an affable nor affectionate person in general, so him not hugging Trunks for 7 is hardly a sign of him not giving a shit (especially since he still rarely does anything like that post-Buu arc).

4. "I'm not going to sit here and break down Vegeta's development for you in Super. It'll be a very long-winded post that I simply am not going to spend the time on. If you can't see his development in Super, that's not really my problem. "

That's because in reality, there really isn't much development from him nor most of the main cast in Super, most of whats there merely builds off of what the Buu arc laid down.

5. You failed to point out any fallacies from my post.

[AnimeNation101]

I don’t want to start an endless back and forth with you on this, but I can’t disagree more if you think Buu saga is a mess but ToP isnt

Its not as much a mess as it is an arc thats too predictable (there were some surprises by still) with, rather than an actual Battle Royale, we get every universe lining up to take on U7 with the only universes that really matter being U7, U6, and U11, with the ending being predictable, and with there being no serious repercussions caused by the arc.

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

[zarmack]

Its not as much a mess as it is an arc thats too predictable (there were some surprises by still) with, rather than an actual Battle Royale, we get every universe lining up to take on U7 with the only universes that really matter being U7, U6, and U11, with the ending being predictable, and with there being no serious repercussions caused by the arc.

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

MUI Goku didn't lose, he won. Jiren actually admitted defeat before the transformation wore off.

[PFM18]

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

MUI Goku didn't lose, he won. Jiren actually admitted defeat before the transformation wore off.

Goku ultimately lost. Jiren would have eliminated Goku right there if Freeza didn't save him.

Its not as much a mess as it is an arc thats too predictable (there were some surprises by still) with, rather than an actual Battle Royale, we get every universe lining up to take on U7 with the only universes that really matter being U7, U6, and U11, with the ending being predictable, and with there being no serious repercussions caused by the arc.

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

So you predicted the basic premise of the ending being U7 vs U11? You could literally say something similar about almost every arc in the franchise.

"So predictable, I knew Goku and Freeza would fight in the end!"
"Wow, so predictable, I knew Piccolo Daimao and Goku would fight in the end!"
"So predictable! I knew Goku would fight Buu!"
etc etc.

The main points of the arc are almost always obvious. Saying "It's going to be U7 vs U11" or that the Universes would be wished back does not mean you actually predicted the relevant revelations in the arc.

Goku "getting a new form" was not the surprise, nor did I argue that it was. Not sure why you even mentioned that. But while we were on the topic, nobody predicted it would be related to the autonomous movement Whis has been talking about.

[AnimeNation101]

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

MUI Goku didn't lose, he won. Jiren actually admitted defeat before the transformation wore off.

Goku ultimately lost. Jiren would have eliminated Goku right there if Freeza didn't save him.

So you predicted that 17 would be the winner? Or that Goku would achieve a new form and lost anyway? Or that Freeza would save Goku from elimination?

I dont know a single person discussing the arc before it happened, that accurately predicted the ending of the arc.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

So you predicted the basic premise of the ending being U7 vs U11? You could literally say something similar about almost every arc in the franchise.

"So predictable, I knew Goku and Freeza would fight in the end!"
"Wow, so predictable, I knew Piccolo Daimao and Goku would fight in the end!"
"So predictable! I knew Goku would fight Buu!"
etc etc.

The main points of the arc are almost always obvious. Saying "It's going to be U7 vs U11" or that the Universes would be wished back does not mean you actually predicted the relevant revelations in the arc.

Goku "getting a new form" was not the surprise, nor did I argue that it was. Not sure why you even mentioned that. But while we were on the topic, nobody predicted it would be related to the autonomous movement Whis has been talking about.

You mentioned “goku getting a new form” as one of the surprises. Unless you meant to group it in with him still losing as one surprise.

Anyhow yeah. The relevant points of the arc were too predictable, no serious lasting repercussions (at least not yet), and the arc just flopped when it came to executing a Battle Royale. Not to mention Jiren’s piss poor generic backstory, and the waste of designs on boring or not explored characters.

[PFM18]

MUI Goku didn't lose, he won. Jiren actually admitted defeat before the transformation wore off.

Goku ultimately lost. Jiren would have eliminated Goku right there if Freeza didn't save him.

I said some surprises didn’t I? But the main stuff was predictable. It would end up being U7 vs U11. Vegeta jobs. U7 wins. All universes come back. And yes, almost everyone predicted Goku would get a new form. The “lost anyway” part is simply one of the few surprises. But the predictability of the main points of this arc plus its poor execution still outway some of the arcs good parts and its surprises.

So you predicted the basic premise of the ending being U7 vs U11? You could literally say something similar about almost every arc in the franchise.

"So predictable, I knew Goku and Freeza would fight in the end!"
"Wow, so predictable, I knew Piccolo Daimao and Goku would fight in the end!"
"So predictable! I knew Goku would fight Buu!"
etc etc.

The main points of the arc are almost always obvious. Saying "It's going to be U7 vs U11" or that the Universes would be wished back does not mean you actually predicted the relevant revelations in the arc.

Goku "getting a new form" was not the surprise, nor did I argue that it was. Not sure why you even mentioned that. But while we were on the topic, nobody predicted it would be related to the autonomous movement Whis has been talking about.

You mentioned “goku getting a new form” as one of the surprises. Unless you meant to group it in with him still losing as one surprise.

Anyhow yeah. The relevant points of the arc were too predictable, no serious lasting repercussions (at least not yet), and the arc just flopped when it came to executing a Battle Royale. Not to mention Jiren’s piss poor generic backstory, and the waste of designs on boring or not explored characters.

No, I said "goku getting a new form and losing anyway." Everyone predicted that Goku would achieve UI and then eliminate JIren, when UI was introduced and the arc was progressing. All of these people were wrong. Some people predicted Gohan would be the winner, some predicted Goku, but I didn't see a single person predict 17 to be the winner. Essentially none of the points that were even mildly specific were predicted. I mean, you're just factually incorrect about this being predictable. If it was predictable, people actually would have predicted it correctly.

Like I said, you could predict the main points of literally every arc like I illustrated in my last post. The only arc that could be described as "unpredictable" in the respect that you defined it, was the Cell arc. Nobody would have predicted when the Androids were announced that the real enemy would be somebody entirely different and Gohan would be the one that would defeat him. But, quite literally every other arc could be described as predictable as the way you defined it. The ToP was not any more predictable than any other arc.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Whatever new Dragon Ball series is coming, it needs to learn from the mistakes that they made on Super and make sure not to do them again. Two seasons were just rehashes of movies, lazily drawn and unoriginal characters, somewhat mediocre score, etc.

[AnimeNation101]

Goku ultimately lost. Jiren would have eliminated Goku right there if Freeza didn't save him.



So you predicted the basic premise of the ending being U7 vs U11? You could literally say something similar about almost every arc in the franchise.

"So predictable, I knew Goku and Freeza would fight in the end!"
"Wow, so predictable, I knew Piccolo Daimao and Goku would fight in the end!"
"So predictable! I knew Goku would fight Buu!"
etc etc.

The main points of the arc are almost always obvious. Saying "It's going to be U7 vs U11" or that the Universes would be wished back does not mean you actually predicted the relevant revelations in the arc.

Goku "getting a new form" was not the surprise, nor did I argue that it was. Not sure why you even mentioned that. But while we were on the topic, nobody predicted it would be related to the autonomous movement Whis has been talking about.

You mentioned “goku getting a new form” as one of the surprises. Unless you meant to group it in with him still losing as one surprise.

Anyhow yeah. The relevant points of the arc were too predictable, no serious lasting repercussions (at least not yet), and the arc just flopped when it came to executing a Battle Royale. Not to mention Jiren’s piss poor generic backstory, and the waste of designs on boring or not explored characters.

No, I said "goku getting a new form and losing anyway." Everyone predicted that Goku would achieve UI and then eliminate JIren, when UI was introduced and the arc was progressing. All of these people were wrong. Some people predicted Gohan would be the winner, some predicted Goku, but I didn't see a single person predict 17 to be the winner. Essentially none of the points that were even mildly specific were predicted. I mean, you're just factually incorrect about this being predictable. If it was predictable, people actually would have predicted it correctly.

Like I said, you could predict the main points of literally every arc like I illustrated in my last post. The only arc that could be described as "unpredictable" in the respect that you defined it, was the Cell arc. Nobody would have predicted when the Androids were announced that the real enemy would be somebody entirely different and Gohan would be the one that would defeat him. But, quite literally every other arc could be described as predictable as the way you defined it. The ToP was not any more predictable than any other arc.

U have a point. Ill change it to the T.o.P seems repetitive with a very simple plot, with poor execution of the Battle Royale which is basically the core of this arc, and an ending that shows that the Arc had no serious repercussions as of now.

[J.T. Drago]

1. Explore the other universes. We have 11 more out there and we know little to nothing about them. I'm not expecting gigantic world building, but give us enough to get an idea of what each universe is like. Although I guess there needs to be a reason to go to the other universes. Maybe someone could exploit the weakness GoDs have with being linked to their Kaioshins. An alternate idea I had is to maybe make a spin-off manga series that each volume focuses on a certain universes. The Tournament had some awesome and potentially awesome characters that I think would be nice to see again. Plus I'm curious about the universes of those who didn't participate

2. Give Yamcha an awesome fight. I totally get he's the butt monkey and all, but seriously, he has a lot of potential. Both DBFZ and Dragongarowlee has shown that Yamcha can be quite the badass. Plus that Spirit Ball technique of his is awesome and could be very damaging if done right. Hell, I stuck with it for a while in Xenoverse 2. Even if the fight ends up having some gag or two, I just want to win a good looking fight.

3. Zalama. I want to see the creator of the Super Dragon Balls and know more about him. Also maybe answer why he chose Universe 6 and 7 to scatter them.

I think that's all I got atm.