Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:37 pm

kei17 wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:If Z had used Triumphant music during this scene, I wonder how people would have reacted if Kai had used super serious placement with the silence :P.
So you want to say that people prefer Z just because it's the original? No. I would have preferred silence no matter what version it is. It's not as simple as you think.
Well that's the case for the majority of people, not saying that would be the overall complete result from everyone.

For example, let's take Hunter X Hunter. The new version is not only more complete, but the animation is miles better than the 90's one, and the music is marvelous, not to mention the 90's version has terrible tom and jerry-like sound effects. Yet lots of people claim the 90's one has better animation when it's not even half as fluid as other anime from that time and Hunter X Hunter (2011) is easily the best animated shonen right now, they also say the music is terrible which really baffles me since the music is freaking amazing, nostalgia plays a freaking big part in almost everything.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:23 pm

^ For everything in this world, nostalgia ruins the pleasure of 90% of people and they'll be completely oblivious to it for the rest of their lives.
They just let it overflow on everything when it's supposed to be kept in a box that you open only once sometimes.

But one can't change the world, I'm afraid that "it was better back then" is something we'll hear for the rest of our lives even when it's a blatant lie induced by misplaced nostalgia.
I'm not saying that's the case here with Kai. But it certainly is the case with a lot of things these days (movies, music, games, books...).

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:35 pm

The problem is that the audio director and episode director framed this scene from the perspective of modern Dragon Ball knowledge, which frames Vegeta as a hero. Vegeta is very much not a hero, he's a cruel and evil monster who now finds himself motivated to die for others. The episode director and audio director--as well as most fans--have not had to live with the perception of Vegeta as being anything else than one of Gokuu's friends, so that clouds their perception of this scene.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:48 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The problem is that the audio director and episode director framed this scene from the perspective of modern Dragon Ball knowledge, which frames Vegeta as a hero. Vegeta is very much not a hero, he's a cruel and evil monster who now finds himself motivated to die for others. The episode director and audio director--as well as most fans--have not had to live with the perception of Vegeta as being anything else than one of Gokuu's friends, so that clouds their perception of this scene.
I agree...halfway. I think Vegeta eventually became a hero, and that his transition from villain to hero took place...pretty much over the course of the entire DBZ series. It came in very slow increments, but I personally think of his sacrifice as one of the biggest moments on that transitional journey.

However, that's a conclusion that I, and many audience members, came to on our own. The music was focusing on that, as if to spell out to us that this is the big triumphant moment when he has arguably become a hero. Like the music was saying, "LOOK, SEE!? HE'S GOOD NOW!"

...Which cheapened the moment. The music (if there had to be any at all in this instance, which I don't think there had to be), should have reflected the bittersweet nature of his sacrifice more than anything else. As I mentioned earlier, it felt way too triumphant to me.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Looneygamemaster » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:04 pm

Yet lots of people claim the 90's one has better animation when it's not even half as fluid as other anime from that time and Hunter X Hunter (2011) is easily the best animated shonen right now, they also say the music is terrible which really baffles me since the music is freaking amazing, nostalgia plays a freaking big part in almost everything.
I saw a few episodes of the 90s anime after watching a few episodes of the new one--and while I don't think it's better animated in the strictest term, it is far superior in lighting and directing. It also accomplished what Rurouni Kenshin couldn't do--successfully graft Kazuhiro Furuhashi's quiet and reflective style into a Shonen fighting adaptation. Madhouse's anime, while not bad, is far more pedestrian.

So, it clearly can't just be nostalgia. I see that thrown about for Sailor Moon Crystal too (against reasonable complaints I might add), so you'll pardon me for seeing "it's nostalgia" as a lazy rebuttal.

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:20 pm

The 1990s Hunter x Hunter did have stronger animation for a few battles, to say nothing of Matsumoto Norio in large quantities. I guess Matsumoto was brought on by Furuhashi given Matsumoto worked on his Rurouni Kenshin series. The 2011 series did improve as it went along, though. The directing for some of the later Chimera Ant arc episodes is really strong. For a half episode focusing on two characters having a proverbial orgasm, that is some good work. Netero versus Meruem alone is a contender for being better than any fight from the 1999 series. There's also this insane rotating cut from Episode #95.

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:41 pm

Looneygamemaster wrote:
Yet lots of people claim the 90's one has better animation when it's not even half as fluid as other anime from that time and Hunter X Hunter (2011) is easily the best animated shonen right now, they also say the music is terrible which really baffles me since the music is freaking amazing, nostalgia plays a freaking big part in almost everything.
I saw a few episodes of the 90s anime after watching a few episodes of the new one--and while I don't think it's better animated in the strictest term, it is far superior in lighting and directing. It also accomplished what Rurouni Kenshin couldn't do--successfully graft Kazuhiro Furuhashi's quiet and reflective style into a Shonen fighting adaptation. Madhouse's anime, while not bad, is far more pedestrian.

So, it clearly can't just be nostalgia. I see that thrown about for Sailor Moon Crystal too (against reasonable complaints I might add), so you'll pardon me for seeing "it's nostalgia" as a lazy rebuttal.
Nothing can top Hunter X Hunter (2011) episode 131. The ambience, the EVERYTHING, "pedestrian" is a very badly used term to call it. considering, like I said and it's my opinion, that Hunter X Hunter (2011) is the best animated shonen of it's type right now.

I'm sorry, but only compared the Greed Island arc, the battle with genthru had some pretty bad animations, like in an instance where genthru was dashing towards Gon but it looked like he was just growing in size instead of dashing through. Not to mention the ambience was darker in the (2011).
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:46 pm

I just finished the Chimera Ants arc today actually. I can certainly attest to the fact that the animation skyrockets in that particular arc. I personally felt things jumped up a considerable amount during Gon and Hisoka's fight onwards too. There's also the dodge-ball match that features some absolutely incredible animation. The 90's show certainly does a lot right but it's not a touch on the overall quality of the 2011 one.

Going back to the comments on nostalgia; I'd like to add that I have absolutely zero sentimentality towards any scene in Dragon Ball. I did not watch the show in Japanese til quite late having grown up on the Ocean/Westwood dub. My opinions are based entirely around what I feel works best for the scene depending on the tone, subject matter, and/or characters featured. It's very easy to throw the nostalgia excuse around but I don't think nostalgia means you can't be objective when judging something.
Nothing can top Hunter X Hunter (2011) episode 131. [...] Hunter X Hunter (2011) is the best animated shonen of its type right now.
Absolutely agree. #131 is not something I'll be forgetting for a long time, if ever. The show is absolutely fantastic.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:55 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:I just finished the Chimera Ants arc today actually. I can certainly attest to the fact that the animation skyrockets in that particular arc. I personally felt things jumped up a considerable amount during Gon and Hisoka's fight onwards too. There's also the dodge-ball match that features some absolutely incredible animation. The 90's show certainly does a lot right but it's not a touch on the overall quality of the 2011 one.

Going back to the comments on nostalgia; I'd like to add that I have absolutely zero sentimentality towards any scene in Dragon Ball. I did not watch the show in Japanese til quite late having grown up on the Ocean/Westwood dub. My opinions are based entirely around what I feel works best for the scene depending on the tone, subject matter, and/or characters featured. It's very easy to throw the nostalgia excuse around but I don't think nostalgia means you can't be objective when judging something.
Nothing can top Hunter X Hunter (2011) episode 131. [...] Hunter X Hunter (2011) is the best animated shonen of its type right now.
Absolutely agree. #131 is not something I'll be forgetting for a long time, if ever. The show is absolutely fantastic.
I drool over the thought of madhouse animating Dragon ball one day. They might even get Yoshihisa Hirano to score it because they like to work with him, that would be perfection, I think we can all agree Kai would be better if it was actually reanimated by madhouse :P. Episode 131 is permanently graphed into my mind forever.


Returning to the nostalgia factor, I actually don't mind if people actually prefer something old over something new, it just gets really bad if the "new" stuff is good on it's own and people crap on it calling it bad. Nostalgia googles are many people's kryptonite these days. As a example I've watched dbz during my childhood, later in my teens I finally brought myself to watch Dragon ball, and wow, I like Dragon ball better, XD so nostalgia doesn't blind me over these two.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:29 pm

Folks, Madhouse animating Dragon Ball does not mean it would be anywhere near as good as their Hunter x Hunter. The production committee members matter a great deal, if a theoretical Madhouse series isn't properly funded or schedule it could very well turn out terribly. Madhouse is owned by NTV, so they would inevitably wind up airing the series. I doubt Fuji TV would let that come to pass.

EDIT: Fixed typo of 'anyway' to 'anywhere'.
Last edited by JulieYBM on Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by kei17 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:53 pm

My opinion has nothing to with my nostalgia. Though Z does have a lot of problems like really slow pacing and bad animations, it's at least faithfully produced from scratch by experienced professionals with passion. On the other hand, Kai is a bunch of half-assed jobs with modern technologies and always suffers from amateurish bungles. Some people seem to be enjoying it at a fan-project level, but I watch Dragon Ball as a professional work and just can't stand with amateurish jobs. It's like preferring a decently produced retro video game over a HD remake with a lot of new glitches, low frame rate and a non-user-friendly UI, and I don't call it nostalgia blindness.

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by LordCrumb » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:13 am

The scream Trunks gave when he powered up and flew off to help Vegeta was amazing.

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:06 am

LordCrumb wrote:The scream Trunks gave when he powered up and flew off to help Vegeta was amazing.
I'm glad you brought that up. That was definitely my favourite moment of the episode. The strain in his voice was great. Really believable performance right there!
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:36 am

I already said Trunks was amazing in this episode and I'll say it again! :p

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by ParkerAL » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:26 pm

Codarik wrote:I really wish the episode would've ended with stone Vegeta falling and crumbling. I hated how the Z episode ended with Vegeta screaming in the explosion, that was a terrible spot to end the episode, and here they did it again. Geez.
It seems like a perfect explosive emotional cliffhanger for an episode to me.
JulieYBM wrote:The 1990s Hunter x Hunter did have stronger animation for a few battles
I don't want to derail the thread further into talking about Hunter x Hunter, but that one fight from the 90's series isn't the fairest scene to judge the overall series. It had such superb animation because it was the last episode in the first anime's original run (before the lackluster Greed Island OVAs later on). Animated series tend to save their best animation for their first and last episodes, or at least that's what I've noticed over the years.

I will always maintain that Kazuhiro Furuhashi should have created his own series to impart his distinct dark/moody style onto, instead of forcing it into Hunter x Hunter and Rurouni Kenshin.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Big Momma » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:44 pm

I have yet to see the whole episode...but I love the score they used when Vegeta blew up. It was a great piece of music, IMO.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Doctor. » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:02 pm

The piece that played while Vegeta and Piccolo were talking was excellent.

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by mcdonough88 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:27 pm

Is it also me or Kusao is WAY BETTER as Chibi Trunks in Kai than he was in Z?

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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:31 pm

mcdonough88 wrote:Is it also me or Kusao is WAY BETTER as Chibi Trunks in Kai than he was in Z?
Definitely how I feel. Not that he was bad in Z at all but he did suffer from the same unnatural grittiness to his voice that the FUNi actors had too. It's refreshing to hear that eliminated with a performance that, to my ears at least, sounds much better.
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Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by DarkPrince_92 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:53 pm

Doctor. wrote:The piece that played while Vegeta and Piccolo were talking was excellent.
I agree. It definitely fit the mood.


Also Trunks' voice definitely evolved since Z. Sounds much more like a kid and more natural. Still sounds older than Goku which still weirds me out. Him and Babidi are a lot better this time around.
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