Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Noah]

But the Kikoho only exerts as much power as the body can physically produce. So obviously Tenshinhan had immense life force and if he was able to produce enough strength on his Kikoho to stop Cell.

But a immense life force as you say doesn't really mean that he has a really high power level, I still think that is a merit from his technique

[Kaboom]

The Shin Kikoho didn't actually hurt Cell, it just momentarily immobilized him, which is all the guidebooks say it did too. I think that because of the way the Kikoho is formed, as the mother of all kiai attacks, the sheer force of the shockwave is enough to move or hold down people much MUCH stronger than Tenshinhan, even if it doesn't have anywhere near enough "ki power" to actually hurt them. Much in the same way the Kienzan can cut people much stronger than the user — it's a special property of the attack that's somewhat separate from its power.

Someone two or three times stronger than Ten? Yeah, they're boned. Someone like Cell who's probably a thousand times stronger than him? No way the attack's overpowered enough to harm them in any substantial way.

[Noah]

I have a question:

Did you guys thinks that Super Boo improved a little at RoSaT?

[Hugo Boss]

I would say in terms of experience, yes. In his fight with Gotenks he was able to regenerate after his pieces have become ashes and gas. He was also able to escape from the parallel dimension by himself.

[supercat]

Because in the last time Kuririn's power was measured he was surpassing 10,000 and the movie implies he is weaker than Dodoria.

Now I'm inclined to give a boost to Roshi. I recal a moment when Freeza attacked one of Namekian villages and his soldiers laughted at powerlevels of 1,000. Perhaps Roshi's improvements could have reached somewhere around 1,500~3,000?

I believe the last battle power stated for Krillin was 75,000. There's a huge difference between a fighter who wields that kind of power and some incompetent fool like Dodoria. Even if Krillin stayed at 75,000, he would be in a completely different realm of power altogether in comparison to Frieza's lackeys from the Namek arc. Vegeta was merely a few thousand higher than Dodoria, yet he dominated the cowardly mook with absolute ease.

Where was it ever implied that the humans were weaker than Dodoria? At this point in the story, surpassing Dodoria, Zarbon, or any of the Ginyus is not some stunning feat that requires an exceptional level of power. Even for the weaker Z-Fighters, being above some mooks from the past seems nothing short of the norm.

[Hugo Boss]

Even if that 75,000 figure was stated in some official suplemental material, I see no problem with disregarding it. The manga doesn't clarify how strong Kuririn is after fighting the Ginyus. In the Daizenshuu we have 13,000, but still I prefer to go by what is depicted in the manga in this case.

In the light of the movie, which was proposed for us to talk, I see that the Earthlings aren't quite able to handle the likes of Zarbon or Dodoria, especially when Piccolo (who seems to be stronger than the Earthlings) is only capable of fighting on par with Shisame. Note that if we look back at the numbers given in the beginning of Freeza Arc, those two are supposed to be around 20,000~30,000, unless we get a new powerscale. I say that because Tagoma, Shisame, Zarbon and Dodoria are treated with the same reputation as fighters, so one could say they have similar abilities. Also, the movie doesn't imply nothing about Shisame getting stronger since the comparison was made, then it's also correct to assume he remains similar to the other three lieutnants.

People may assume that Shisame got stronger because Piccolo was stronger than Freeza, the 3 Super Saiyans before training in the RoSaT, and the androids No. 18 and No. 17, but I believe Toriyama either forgot about how strong Piccolo became in the story or he opted to give a good match between the strongest non-Saiyan Z Fighter and the top lieutnant of Freeza's army. I guess the scene really is entertaining if we forget a little about the powerlevels' topic, so I'm more inclined to believe in the latter.

Of course, there are other plausible theories to explain the apparent problem with the strength of Piccolo and Shisame, but this is just how I view things for now. I hope I have clarified my point.

[supercat]

Even if that 75,000 figure was stated in some official suplemental material, I see no problem with disregarding it. The manga doesn't clarify how strong Kuririn is after fighting the Ginyus. In the Daizenshuu we have 13,000, but still I prefer to go by what is depicted in the manga in this case.

In the light of the movie, which was proposed for us to talk, I see that the Earthlings aren't quite able to handle the likes of Zarbon or Dodoria, especially when Piccolo (who seems to be stronger than the Earthlings) is only capable of fighting on par with Shisame. Note that if we look back at the numbers given in the beginning of Freeza Arc, those two are supposed to be around 20,000~30,000, unless we get a new powerscale. I say that because Tagoma, Shisame, Zarbon and Dodoria are treated with the same reputation as fighters, so one could say they have similar abilities. Also, the movie doesn't imply nothing about Shisame getting stronger since the comparison was made, then it's also correct to assume he remains similar to the other three lieutnants.

People may assume that Shisame got stronger because Piccolo was stronger than Freeza, the 3 Super Saiyans before training in the RoSaT, and the androids No. 18 and No. 17, but I believe Toriyama either forgot about how strong Piccolo became in the story or he opted to give a good match between the strongest non-Saiyan Z Fighter and the top lieutnant of Freeza's army. I guess the scene really is entertaining if we forget a little about the powerlevels' topic, so I'm more inclined to believe in the latter.

Of course, there are other plausible theories to explain the apparent problem with the strength of Piccolo and Shisame, but this is just how I view things for now. I hope I have clarified my point.

Well if that's your perception on this entire matter, then I respect that. However, I'm not sure why you would feel that the humans are incapable of taking down a group of irrelevant mooks like Zarbon and Dodoria. I could understand them lingering at levels below Final Form or even Third Form Frieza, but being weaker than a pair of lackeys who were deemed as fodders in the Namek arc seems quite far-fetched in my opinion.

Piccolo fighting on par with Shisami does not automatically stoop him down to Zarbon / Dodoria tier. There has been no indication whatsoever, or anything that has ever even remotely hinted towards the Namekian suffering any kind of power loss. In fact, with his dedication towards long term training, I wouldn't be surprised if he far surpassed his former self during the Cell Games. I understand that Shisami was stated to be Zarbon tier, but there are also other inconsistencies in the film are there not? Also, if someone as weak as Frieza could suddenly become stronger than SSGSS in a matter of months, who's to say that a Zarbon tier mook can't catch up to a Cell Jr. level fighter? No one has really questioned power increases in the past, so I'm not sure what about Shisami obtaining heights of power that grants him the privilege of fighting on par with Piccolo is so hard to fathom.

Lastly, to put it in perspective, do you really think Gohan would turn SSJ against Zarbon or Dodoria?

[Hugo Boss]

I think that if you stack at how the powerscale developed from Freeza Arc to Boo Arc, it will be pretty difficult to concrete an idea of how strong the characters are portrayed in the film.

Zarbon and Dodoria might be irrelevant mooks back in the day, but in the film they are told to be top aliens. I guess the position is what really matters in this case. So, strength-wise, Shisame and Tagoma are definitely weaker than (1st form) Freeza, but a lot stronger than a good number of people in the universe.

Speaking of Piccolo, he is treated as the top (!) Namekian. Guess it's better to make him the nemesis of another top alien, like Shisame. The film also doesn't say nothing about Piccolo getting weaker or tired, if I'm not mistaken. I suppose he still remains stronger than a bunch of cyborgs that were made on Earth, but not quite as strong as cyborgs with multiple alien traits, like Cell.

Kuririn might be the strongest Earthling, but he is still not quite in the same category of the cyborgs, let alone super aliens.

Gohan in another hand is an Earthling with potential to become a Super Saiyan, thus making him stronger than cyborgs, super aliens and even Freeza (before his uber training). That naturally happens when Gohan goes Super Saiyan, because without it he doesn't seem to be any better than Piccolo or Shisame.

[h0kuten]

Lol @ Super Buu getting a little stronger by fighting Gotenks a bit in the ROST.

[supercat]

I think that if you stack at how the powerscale developed from Freeza Arc to Boo Arc, it will be pretty difficult to concrete an idea of how strong the characters are portrayed in the film.

Zarbon and Dodoria might be irrelevant mooks back in the day, but in the film they are told to be top aliens. I guess the position is what really matters in this case. So, strength-wise, Shisame and Tagoma are definitely weaker than (1st form) Freeza, but a lot stronger than a good number of people in the universe.

Speaking of Piccolo, he is treated as the top (!) Namekian. Guess it's better to make him the nemesis of another top alien, like Shisame. The film also doesn't say nothing about Piccolo getting weaker or tired, if I'm not mistaken. I suppose he still remains stronger than a bunch of cyborgs that were made on Earth, but not quite as strong as cyborgs with multiple alien traits, like Cell.

Kuririn might be the strongest Earthling, but he is still not quite in the same category of the cyborgs, let alone super aliens.

Gohan in another hand is an Earthling with potential to become a Super Saiyan, thus making him stronger than cyborgs, super aliens and even Freeza (before his uber training). That naturally happens when Gohan goes Super Saiyan, because without it he doesn't seem to be any better than Piccolo or Shisame.

I'm not sure how being compared to two new characters suddenly qualifies a pair of irrelevant mooks as top aliens.

You just basically agreed with me by indicating that Piccolo is still stronger than the Androids. With this being the case, there's no chance whatsoever that the Namekian has suffered the misfortune of being considered on par with some useless lackeys that were easily put in their place several arcs prior.

As far as I know, nothing has ever hinted towards Krillin being inferior to these so called super aliens. If he was last stated to be at 75,000, it's pretty plausible to assume that he's still at the very least at this level if not above it. If we factor in his 3 years of training for the Androids, we could assume that on the low end of the spectrum, he's reached the range of 200,000 - 500,000, but even possibly upwards of 1,000,000 or more.

Even with the assumption of Krillin suffering some kind of power loss after the defeat of Cell, I'm going to have a hard time believing that he's fallen below his original battle power of 75,000.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Let's see peoples numbers for:

Zarbon (Beautiful):
Zarbon (Monster):
Vegeta (2nd zenkai):
Jeice/Burter/Recoome:

right now, I have:

Zarbon (Beautiful): 21k
Zarbon (Monster): 30k
Vegeta (2nd zenkai): 29.6k
Jeice/Burter/Recoome: 40k

but I was thinking something like this could work? v

Vegeta (2nd zenkai): 29k
Jeice/Burter/Recoome: 36k

too small of a gap?

[supercat]

Let's see peoples numbers for:

Zarbon (Beautiful):
Zarbon (Monster):
Vegeta (2nd zenkai):
Jeice/Burter/Recoome:

right now, I have:

Zarbon (Beautiful): 21k
Zarbon (Monster): 30k
Vegeta (2nd zenkai): 29.6k
Jeice/Burter/Recoome: 40k

but I was thinking something like this could work? v

Vegeta (2nd zenkai): 29k
Jeice/Burter/Recoome: 36k

too small of a gap?

Sounds pretty close to what I had envisioned. Although, I would place Zarbon (before transforming) more or less a few thousand higher. As for Vegeta during his rematch with Zarbon, I'd say that the Saiyan Prince holds a slight advantage in power after having the recent luxury of benefiting from a Zenkai. I've always seen him more less within the ballpark of 31,000.

I think keeping the Ginyus each at about 40,000 sounds pretty accurate. I wouldn't place them anything higher than that though. Considering how badly they were taken down, and with the implication of 60,000 being enough to utterly humiliate them, I'd be exceptionally surprised if they were above 40,000.

A bit off topic, but with the exclusion of their body swapping captain, I have Jeice, Burter, and Recoome all individually below Nail, who was stated to be 42,000.

[ZombieVito]

Zarbon (Beautiful): 23,000
Zarbon (Monster): 30,000
Vegeta (2nd zenkai): 30,000
Jeice/Burter/Recoome: 45,000/44,000/42,000

[LightBing]

I have the same numbers as Zombie, only difference is that the Ginyu force is between 40.000 and 42.000

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

23,000 is kind of high for Zarbon IMO, although you could just argue he had a loss of Shouki/Yuuki (hope I spelled those right.)

[Kaboom]

Fabulous Zarbon: 23,000
Fugly Zarbon: ~30,000
Vegeta With A Vengeance: ~30,000
Recoome/Butta/Jheese: 40,000-45,000

Not much to it. There's only so much of a power range that any of those guys can really fall within, and one of them (Zarbon) already has an established official number.

[h0kuten]

Here is something I'm still working on.

Legend

Gaps

~10% Gap = A battle where skill is still relevant.
~15% Gap = A battle where skill is no longer relevant, but a surprise attack can still turn the tables.
~20% Gap = A battle that is one sided. Surprise attacks are still feasable.
~25% Gap = A battle that is begining to approach tanking range. Completely one sided.
~30% Gap = A battle where it's possible to tank a weaker opponent, though blood is drawn and the stronger person is knocked off balance.
~40% Gap = A battle where the stronger person tanks the weaker one. No blood is drawn but the stronger person is still moved, slightly.
~50% Gap = A battle where the weaker fighter cannot see the former. The stronger person can tank with hardly noticeable action movements. One shot range.
~60% Gap = A battle where the stronger person can tank a Chi attack or physical attack with no apparent movement at all.

Multipliers
Ssj= 50x Base
SsjG2= 62.5x Base
SsjG3= 125x Base
Ssj2= 100x Base
Ssj3= 400x Base
Metamoran= 75x Base
Potara= 20,000x Base
SSJG=

Goku
~Base 3,000,000
~Kkx10: 30,000,000
~Kkx20: 60,000,000
~Ssj: 150,000,000

Frieza
~100%: 120,000,000

Arrival of Trunks

Trunks
~Base 4,000,000
~Ssj 200,000,000

Yardrat Goku
~Base 4,800,000
~Ssj 240,000,000

Mecha Frieza
~Suppressed: 80,000,000
~Full Power 160,000,000

King Cold
~Full Power: 90,000,000

Gohan
~Full Power 2,000,000

Piccolo
~Full Power 5,000,000

Vegeta
~Full Power 3,500,000

3 Years Later...

Goku
~Base 7,600,000
~Sick 280,000,000
~Ssj 380,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 8,400,000
~Ssj 420,000,000

Trunks
~Base 7,200,000
~Ssj 360,000,000

Piccolo
~Full Power 300,000,000

Android 19
~Pre 175,000,000
~Post 260,000,000
Android 20
~Pre 180,000,000
~Post 240,000,000

His Name is Cell

Kamiccolo
~Full Power 600,000,000
~Light Grenad 1,200,000,000

Android 18
~Full Power 500,000,000
Android 17
~Full Power 600,000,000
Android 16
~Full Power 2,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell
~Pre 480,000,000
~Post 2,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 80,000,000
~Ssj 4,000,000,000
~SsjG2 5,000,000,000

Trunks
~Base 72,000,000
~Ssj 3,600,000,000
~SsjG2 4,500,000,000
~SsjG3 9,000,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell
~Initial 3,000,000,000
~Full Power 3,800,000,000

Perfect Cell
~Initial 4,500,000,000
~Silent Power Up 7,500,000,000

The Cell Games

Goku
~Base 280,000,000
~Ssj 50% 7,000,000,000
~FPMSsj 14,000,000,000

Gohan
~Base 420,000,000
~FPMSsj 21,000,000,000
~Ssj2 42,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 210,000,000
~FPMSsj 10,500,000,000

Trunks
~Base 210,000,000
~FPMSsj 10,500,000,000

Piccolo
~Full Power 9,000,000,000

Cell Junior
~Full Power 12,000,000,000

Perfect Cell
~Silent Power Up 7,500,000,000
~Powered Up 15,000,000,000
~Increased Speed 17,500,000,000
~Real Speed 24,000,000,000
~Full Power 30,000,000,000
~Power Bloated 45,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell
~Full Power 40,000,000,000

The Majin Buu Saga

Goku
~Base 500,000,000
~FPMSsj 25,000,000,000
~Ssj2 50,000,000,000
~Ssj3 200,000,000,000

Vegeta Pre-Majin
~Base 375,000,000
~FPMSsj 18,750,000,000
~Ssj2 37,500,000,000

Majin Vegeta
~Full Power 50,000,000,000

Teen Gohan
~Base 300,000,000
~Ssj 15,000,000,000
~Ssj2 30,000,000,000
~Enraged 42,000,000,000
~Ultimate 7,200,000,000,000

Goten
~Base 240,000,000
~FPMSsj 12,000,000,000

Trunks
~Base 264,000,000
~FPMSSj 13,200,000,000

Dabura
~Full Power 17,500,000,000

Piccolo
~Full Power 12,500,000,000

Fat Buu
~Initial 25,000,000,000
~Powered Up 50,000,000,000
~Full Power 75,000,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 18,000,000,000
~Ssj 90,000,000,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 120,000,000,000
~FPMSsj 600,000,000,000
~Ssj2 1,200,000,000,000
~Ssj3 4,800,000,000,000

Good Buu
~Full Power 80,000,000,000
Evil Buu
~Full Power 120,000,000,000
Kid Buu
~Full Power 180,000,000,000
Super Buu
~Full Power 4,000,000,000,000
Buff Buu
~Full Power 6,000,000,000,000
Buutenks
~Full Power 8,800,000,000,000
Buuhan
~Full Power 11,200,0000,00,000

Vegetto
~Base 10,000,000,000,000
~FPMSsj 50,000,000,000,000
[~Ssj2 100,000,000,000,000]
[~Ssj3 400,000,000,000,000]

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not sure how being compared to two new characters suddenly qualifies a pair of irrelevant mooks as top aliens.

You just basically agreed with me by indicating that Piccolo is still stronger than the Androids. With this being the case, there's no chance whatsoever that the Namekian has suffered the misfortune of being considered on par with some useless lackeys that were easily put in their place several arcs prior.

As far as I know, nothing has ever hinted towards Krillin being inferior to these so called super aliens.

Think of Kuririn as an Earthling and Shisame as a alien. Both are in the top of their races, but Earthlings are usually weaker than aliens. Though, you could say No.18 is what Earth has to counter that alien proeminence. Since Piccolo is a super namekian it's more convenient to make another super alien his opponent.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Here is something I'm still working on.

I will just nitpick what I disagree with here.

Spoiler:

Here is something I'm still working on.
SSJG=

It's so a big of a boost you can't even see it?

Freeza
~100%: 120,000,000

I disagree with Freeza being 80% of Goku but I'll agree to disagree since I know a lot of people like the Daizenshuu number.

Arrival of Trunks

Gohan
~Full Power 2,000,000

Gohan is too high here in my opinion. There's nothing suggesting he trained up until Freeza's arrival, and he shouldn't be over 1,000,000 by the end of the Freeza fight, unless he got stronger without us getting any indication.

Piccolo
~Full Power 5,000,000

Vegeta
~Full Power 3,500,000

Vegeta should still be stronger. Status quo.

Goku
~Base 7,600,000
~Sick 280,000,000
~Ssj 380,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 8,400,000
~Ssj 420,000,000

Trunks
~Base 7,200,000
~Ssj 360,000,000

The Super Saiyans should all be closer IMO. They were all grouped together by different people in a way the makes it seem they're all similar in power, and most people had a hard time telling Vegeta was even stronger than Goku so even Vegeta being 1.1x Goku seems somewhat excessive.

Android 19
~Pre 175,000,000
~Post 260,000,000
Android 20
~Pre 180,000,000
~Post 240,000,000

#20 post should be stronger than #19 post IMO. #20 was considered strong enough to humiliate Trunks from 3 years back meanwhile the clown never received that honor. Although overall they should both be stronger than Trunks since Vegeta didn't completely dismiss Trunks' credibility.

Kamiccolo
~Full Power 600,000,000
~Light Grenad 1,200,000,000

If you're going to bother with Ki amplification for attacks, this is too small of a boost imo. Kamiccolo laughed at Cell's KHH which should be 2.22x, so Piccolo's amp should be >> Cell's amp.

Android 16
~Full Power 2,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell
~Pre 480,000,000
~Post 2,000,000,000

Just wanna note, if you're trying to be conservative, it seemed like IPC had a slight advantage on #16, which could lower #16 and by extension initial 2nd form Cell.

Vegeta
~Base 80,000,000
~Ssj 4,000,000,000
~SsjG2 5,000,000,000

Trunks
~Base 72,000,000
~Ssj 3,600,000,000
~SsjG2 4,500,000,000
~SsjG3 9,000,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell
~Initial 3,000,000,000
~Full Power 3,800,000,000

The dialogue before SS Vegeta and Cell's fight implies they're close in power. (When taking into account suppressed Cell and not Grade 2 Vegeta.)

Perfect Cell
~Initial 4,500,000,000
~Silent Power Up 7,500,000,000

I think this is a rather small gap for tanking but I guess you could take into account Vegeta's Ki was dropping as he was continuously using Grade 2.

The Cell Games

Vegeta
~Base 210,000,000
~FPMSsj 10,500,000,000

Trunks
~Base 210,000,000
~FPMSsj 10,500,000,000

Piccolo
~Full Power 9,000,000,000

Cell Junior
~Full Power 12,000,000,000

Too big of a gap between the Cell kids and Vegeta/Trunks imo. Vegeta's hits seemed to do just as much to the Cell kid as their hits did to Vegeta.

Perfect Cell
~Power Bloated 45,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell
~Full Power 40,000,000,000

According to the Daizenshuu, Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Buff Cell.

Goku
~Base 500,000,000
~FPMSsj 25,000,000,000
~Ssj2 50,000,000,000
~Ssj3 200,000,000,000

IMO, he's too far ahead of Kid Gohan. Piccolo's hesitation to outright saying Vegeta is stronger than Kid Gohan for certain implies the gap is at most like 1.125x or so.

Teen Gohan
~Ssj 15,000,000,000

Goten
~FPMSsj 12,000,000,000

Too big of a gap. Vegeta while being 1.2x Dodoria (at best) had absolutely no problem man handing Dodoria, Gohan was sweating profusely, gritting his teeth, and flaring his aura just to block Goten's hits.

Goten
~FPMSsj 12,000,000,000

Trunks
~FPMSSj 13,200,000,000

Too big of a gap here IMO.

Teen Gohan
~Ssj 15,000,000,000

Dabura
~Full Power 17,500,000,000

Why do you have Dabra that much stronger? If anything, it seemed Gohan had the slight edge, Dabra had to resort to magic trickery.

Goku
~Ssj3 200,000,000,000

Fat Buu
~Full Power 75,000,000,000

There is too large a gap between Boo and Goku IMO. Boo bounced back from all of Goku's hits with a smile on his face.

Fat Buu
~Full Power 75,000,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST]
~Ssj 90,000,000,000

I'm glad you finally came around.

Although he should be stronger than SS3 Goku IMO. Nothing ever contradicted Goku's estimation.

Overall good list.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Anywho, for people who dabble in pre-Z Battle Powers, can you show me your 21st TB gaps? This is what I currently have:

Spoiler:

Son Goku
~ full power (without tail) - 75
~ full power (with tail) - 100
~ Great Ape - 1,000

Kuririn
~ full power - 72

Yamcha
~ full power - 45

Jackie Chun
~ full power - 100
~ buff - 250

Orinji Temple Bullies
~ full power - 22.5

Bacterian
~ full power - 36

Ran Fuan
~ full power - 62.5

Giran
~ full power - 60

Namu
~ full power - 93.75