Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

Your post relies on the assumption that Freeza>Base Goku is an indisputable fact. I would rather not get into a debate of any sorts but there are multiple reasons to not believe in that theory in the first place.

Well, I did start with "by official accounts." Anybody can watch Battle of Gods or Super and see Beerus' line for themselves, and that's the only truly straightforward official word on the topic. Whether they believe it or not is a different matter, and really only affects them.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Your post relies on the assumption that Freeza>Base Goku is an indisputable fact. I would rather not get into a debate of any sorts but there are multiple reasons to not believe in that theory in the first place.

Well, I did start with "by official accounts." Anybody can watch Battle of Gods or Super and see Beerus' line for themselves, and that's the only truly straightforward official word on the topic. Whether they believe it or not is a different matter, and really only affects them.

The thing is, earlier in Dragon Ball Z, multiple indirect confirmations started to come out implying whether Base Goku surpassed Frieza from the Namek Saga or not, yet there have been a number of these confirmations suggesting that Base Goku surpassed Frieza from the Namek Saga.

While it's true Beerus's statement from the Battle of Gods saga and the movie itself shows that he's weaker, it's unquantifiable.

Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza. Unless Beerus is wrong, of course.

The statement is so vague. Beerus never saw Goku, only by a vision given by Whis when he went Ssj to beat Frieza. So if anything, beerus would simply be speculating.

Based on what he said, it can also be inferred "you don't look like" and "possibly". Although these words were misused before, and even later in dragon ball super, this doesn't change the fact that the subject was going around what Beerus has witnessed. People judge things what they witnessed and not under air, and beerus is nowhere seen to be an exception.

If he managed to have known Goku's extents of power, he would have knew that Goku holds Ssj2 and Ssj3, but not even Whis knew that, that's why Whis at first implied that if Goku stayed as a Ssj2, he won't have time to eat his food and decided to leave it be, until Goku went Ssj3.

It's just more of a guess over what he witness.

Another statement is:

Minute: 11
Context: After Super Saiyan Goku has fought Beerus for a little bit
Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.”
Goku: “Oh, really…? See for yourself if that’s all I’m capable of.”
Significance: Some fansubbers mistranslated this to Beerus saying Super Saiyan Goku would have a hard time defeating Freeza, or even that Super Saiyan Goku couldn’t defeat Freeza! Of course, in actual fact Super Saiyan Goku did have a bit of a hard time defeating Freeza (if only because of Freeza being a cheap jerk), but he’s supposed to have grown a lot stronger since then. Arguably even the properly translated line doesn’t properly reflect just how much stronger Super Saiyan Goku should be than Freeza, but it’s not the same as Beerus explicitly saying Goku would struggle against Freeza and/or lose. We’ve also seen that Beerus doesn’t seem aware of any non-god stronger than Freeza, which may factor in here. Anyway, regardless of what Beerus says, Goku doesn’t seem to agree that Beerus has the full measure of his power.

This here clarifies it. Beerus was trying to search for the "Super Saiyan God". A power that will amuse Beerus supposedly, which here Beerus didn't find anything special on Goku.

Goku disagreeing with him debunks Beerus.

If we go by what we got from BoG, it cannot be used as it contradicts itself completely.

So it would be best for everyone out there not to use this notion for any argument...

[DBZ Macky]

I think SethTheProgrammer pretty much answered this conundrum. Are his points not infallible?

[Kaboom]

I've never seen such inexplicable dedication towards invalidating a straightforward statement by any roundabout means necessary.

Look, the line means what it means. Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Toei's people have all had plenty of chances by now to omit, retract, or correct what Beerus said if they didn't think it was legit, and if it wasn't meant to be a true revelation about Goku's strength, then there'd be no reason for it to be there. While some things in both Super since then and from the original manga may imply otherwise, none of them are blunt and candid enough to be definitive proof (nobody back during Boo ever said "I'm so strong I could defeat Freeza even without Super Saiyan now."), and can easily be explained in other ways in light of such a direct statement.

If someone just doesn't like what Beerus' line establishes and they don't want to count it as part of their head-canon or factor it into their personal power level lists or whatever, fine. Nobody's under any obligation to do that. But these weaselly attempts to undermine the validity of the statement, pretend that it doesn't really mean what it says, and try to tell other people that they shouldn't believe it either... are just a waste of everyone's time.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Look, the line means what it means

Exactly, it means what it says. But there was never anything suggesting it's 100% true, yet there is plenty of evidence behind it to easily disprove it. If we take statements like that without checking its credibility, whether it holds upright or not, then we might as well take multiple other statements through the franchise that are proven wrong many times as facts, yet it wouldn't be right at all.

Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Toei's people have all had plenty of chances by now to omit, retract, or correct what Beerus said if they didn't think it was legit

1) That would be speculating that Beerus was right from the beginning. By that logic, every single statement in every single franchise thrown in the show must be considered true by what it says. This way of looking at things is completely wrong regardless.

2) They had time alright (That's assuming beerus was right from the beginning if anything), but where do you think they would put it through the show? I understand they can round it up somehow if so, but the events are mostly put to serve the storyline of the show, not random positions out of nowhere.

Nonetheless, taking unquantifiable, vague statements as facts is completely wrong

if it wasn't meant to be a true revelation about Goku's strength, then there'd be no reason for it to be there

Not everything has to be fact for it to be in a franchise displayed as statements. Statements are wide. They can range from facts to speculations. If there is "no reason" to put a character statement implying his witness over a matter, then we might as well change the entire overviews over characters and everything would become "perfect". Yet in regards to likeliness, that would be impossible.

While some things in both Super since then and from the original manga may imply otherwise, none of them are blunt and candid enough to be definitive proof (nobody back during Boo ever said "I'm so strong I could defeat Freeza even without Super Saiyan now."), and can easily be explained in other ways in light of such a direct statement.

Not everything has to be direct in order to get a definitive answer for something. Things can be showcased indirectly. There is no reason to focus on every single detail everytime a new subject comes to show. If such details were concentrated on, then I'm sure that would ruin many parts of the plot, that's why things can be implied indirectly, regardless how, while serving the plot.

If someone just doesn't like what Beerus' line establishes and they don't want to count it as part of their head-canon or factor it into their personal power level lists or whatever, fine. Nobody's under any obligation to do that. But these weaselly attempts to undermine the validity of the statement, pretend that it doesn't really mean what it says, and try to tell other people that they shouldn't believe it either... are just a waste of everyone's time.

It depends how you view the subject, and the person you're talking about. Not everyone "hates", "undermine validity" or "denies" a statement. It's just simply following the content we're given, relating them, and that's all. No headcanon or whatever thing there is out there.

Regardless, this topic is opinionated to whoever wants to believe what in the show.

[Kaboom]

Nonetheless, taking unquantifiable, vague statements as facts is completely wrong.

...In what freaky, mixed-up universe is "you don't seem able to beat Freeza as you are now, but you can gain power by going Super Saiyan" considered vague or "unquantifiable?"

1) Character A makes a plain, straightforward strength statement.
2) We fact-check the story before and after for any outright contradictions.
3) None are found. Character A's statement holds up and is valid.

Badabing, badaboom. It's not complicated. No circuitous analysis and speculation about the nature of statements is necessary.

Now, again... You, Noah, or anyone else can choose to believe or count whatever you want for yourself. If Beerus revealing that base Goku isn't as strong as Freeza yet rubs you the wrong way, or if you place more value in the indirect implications to the contrary from the Boo arc... then feel free to simply ignore it. But don't go insulting people's intelligence with this "well, it's not REALLY true or valid until they actually go out of their way to prove it" malarkey.

Toriyama, Watanabe, et al are the ones writing this stuff in the first place. They don't have to produce proof that what they wrote is true or intentional.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

...In what freaky, mixed-up universe is "you don't seem able to beat Freeza as you are now, but you can gain power by going Super Saiyan" considered vague or "unquantifiable?"

I would love to see you Read my earlier comment which you seem to have ignored completely:

The thing is, earlier in Dragon Ball Z, multiple indirect confirmations started to come out implying whether Base Goku surpassed Frieza from the Namek Saga or not, yet there have been a number of these confirmations suggesting that Base Goku surpassed Frieza from the Namek Saga.

While it's true Beerus's statement from the Battle of Gods saga and the movie itself shows that he's weaker, it's unquantifiable.

Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza. Unless Beerus is wrong, of course.

The statement is so vague. Beerus never saw Goku, only by a vision given by Whis when he went Ssj to beat Frieza. So if anything, beerus would simply be speculating.

Based on what he said, it can also be inferred "you don't look like" and "possibly". Although these words were misused before, and even later in dragon ball super, this doesn't change the fact that the subject was going around what Beerus has witnessed. People judge things what they witnessed and not under air, and beerus is nowhere seen to be an exception.

If he managed to have known Goku's extents of power, he would have knew that Goku holds Ssj2 and Ssj3, but not even Whis knew that, that's why Whis at first implied that if Goku stayed as a Ssj2, he won't have time to eat his food and decided to leave it be, until Goku went Ssj3.

It's just more of a guess over what he witness.

Another statement is:

Minute: 11
Context: After Super Saiyan Goku has fought Beerus for a little bit
Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.”
Goku: “Oh, really…? See for yourself if that’s all I’m capable of.”
Significance: Some fansubbers mistranslated this to Beerus saying Super Saiyan Goku would have a hard time defeating Freeza, or even that Super Saiyan Goku couldn’t defeat Freeza! Of course, in actual fact Super Saiyan Goku did have a bit of a hard time defeating Freeza (if only because of Freeza being a cheap jerk), but he’s supposed to have grown a lot stronger since then. Arguably even the properly translated line doesn’t properly reflect just how much stronger Super Saiyan Goku should be than Freeza, but it’s not the same as Beerus explicitly saying Goku would struggle against Freeza and/or lose. We’ve also seen that Beerus doesn’t seem aware of any non-god stronger than Freeza, which may factor in here. Anyway, regardless of what Beerus says, Goku doesn’t seem to agree that Beerus has the full measure of his power.

This here clarifies it. Beerus was trying to search for the "Super Saiyan God". A power that will amuse Beerus supposedly, which here Beerus didn't find anything special on Goku.

Goku disagreeing with him debunks Beerus.

If we go by what we got from BoG, it cannot be used as it contradicts itself completely.

So it would be best for everyone out there not to use this notion for any argument...

1) Character A makes a plain, straightforward strength statement.

Your Logic is so ridiculous. If every single character statement is credible then you might as well believe proclamations and speculations.

Not everything is "correct" because it was said so. I would like to see your "opinion" on the matter. This isn't even arguable. Statements aren't concrete always, one could speculate, which the context CLEARLY proven so.

This is furthered by how the plot is going on by. It's a vague and unquantifiable statement, completely inconsistent if it was taken seriously, as it is debunked many times.

2) We fact-check the story before and after for any outright contradictions.

This would further my proof, as earlier evidence suggests that this is widely wrong. At the same time furthered by the content of that episode itself. Thank you for proving my point. We can at least concede now.

3) None are found. Character A's statement holds up and is valid.

If what you're saying is "always" true, then we would never need any show displaying over any subject and simply replace it by "speculations", "witness-based" and "proclamated" statements.

Badabing, badaboom. It's not complicated. No circuitous analysis and speculation about the nature of statements is necessary.

It's kinda weird how you think statements that are proven wrong and can't be taken into consideration due to the sheer contradiction it gives to it in the very same statement usable just because they are statements

Now, again... You, Noah, or anyone else can choose to believe or count whatever you want for yourself. If Beerus revealing that base Goku isn't as strong as Freeza yet rubs you the wrong way, or if you place more value in the indirect implications to the contrary from the Boo arc... then feel free to simply ignore it. But don't go insulting people's intelligence with this "well, it's not REALLY true or valid until they actually go out of their way to prove it" malarkey.

1) Try to be respectful and talk in a good matter. Just because you are on one side and someone is on the other, doesn't mean you can talk to everyone like that. It's more like you treating us as complete inferiors to you. I'm disappointed. You should listen to others, not try to shut them up.

2) That so called "revealing" was ever an official reveal. If he's "perfect" at everything he says because he's a character who has a statement, doesn't in NO WAY mean he's so reliable.

3) Indirect evidence can very well be more reliable than unreliable, unquantifiable, vague, disproven direct statements from someone who has no knowledge over what's he talking about. If anything beerus would simply compare ANYBODY to frieza because he thought he's the strongest Non-god character in regards to his knowledge over the mortals. This was accurately noted in the same episode, and debunked in the same content. There is no "Head-canon".

4) No one is insulting. Maybe I didn't see some other people, but hopefully this isn't referring to me. Not everything is always gonna be "direct" because a series wouldn't go over every single detail given in the series. That wouldn't serve the plot's needs.

Toriyama, Watanabe, et al are the ones writing this stuff in the first place. They don't have to produce proof that what they wrote is true or intentional.

And no one said that what they're saying is 100% fact, they INTENTIONALLY serve what in reality should happen at a moment. Again, statements are WIDE, ranging from facts to speculations. You cannot know whether a statement is right or not unless there's proof behind it...

I will stay so calm and be very respecting. Unless you wanna end this topic and agree to disagree, then fine. Just tell me "Let's agree to disagree" normally because like I said, this topic is opinionated.

[Kaboom]

I did read your post. I've read it from dozens of other people making the same pointless, backwards-looping argument in the past, too.

"Agree to disagree" implies outlooks that are equally valid. Maybe it's just me, but second-guessing simple statements like this doesn't strike me as a worthwhile approach to these things.

But I've already wasted enough time at this point, and my original answer to Noah still stands (because, as I detailed, that's what all the official statements add up to), so I will drop it now.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I did read your post. I've read it from dozens of other people making the same pointless, backwards-looping argument in the past, too.

"Agree to disagree" implies outlooks that are equally valid. Maybe it's just me, but second-guessing simple statements like this doesn't strike me as a worthwhile approach to these things.

But I've already wasted enough time at this point, and my original answer to Noah still stands (because, as I detailed, that's what all the official statements add up to), so I will drop it now.

Since you no longer want to argue and claimed that you "read it" also from other people which isn't the main topic whether you saw my argument before, I'll simply say "you did" and agree to disagree. Since you haven't tried to refute me well, I'll go by that.

Simply saying: Agree to Disagree

[Noah]

But I've already wasted enough time at this point, and my original answer to Noah still stands (because, as I detailed, that's what all the official statements add up to), so I will drop it now.

I don't know why people believe the Saiyans had surpassed 100% FP Freeza in some point of the series. I mean just because Vegeta said he would win the tournament anyway even with the no SSJ rule? He's just acting like the same arrogant prick he always was.

Or we're supposed to believe Base Vegeta became stronger than both #18 and Piccolo? That's ridiculous.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But I've already wasted enough time at this point, and my original answer to Noah still stands (because, as I detailed, that's what all the official statements add up to), so I will drop it now.

I don't know why people believe the Saiyans had surpassed 100% FP Freeza in some point of the series. I mean just because Vegeta said he would win the tournament anyway even with the no SSJ rule? He's just acting like the same arrogant prick he always was.

Or we're supposed to believe Base Vegeta became stronger than both #18 and Piccolo? That's ridiculous.

Piccolo wasn't around at time. And when Vegeta is wrong, he is latter proven wrong in the arc, like when he was bragging about being the strongest and got his ass landed to Freeza, or 18. If AT wanted to prove Vegeta wrong, he'd do in the arc, not in a movie more than 20 years after the series ended.

Also, BoGs later contradicts himself by heavily implying SSJ3 Goku (And maybe SSJ2 Vegeta) surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. While Gohan is most likely rusty, nothing implies Gotenks is weaker.

[DanielSSJ]

Piccolo wasn't around at time. And when Vegeta is wrong, he is latter proven wrong in the arc, like when he was bragging about being the strongest and got his ass landed to Freeza, or 18. If AT wanted to prove Vegeta wrong, he'd do in the arc, not in a movie more than 20 years after the series ended.

Also, BoGs later contradicts himself by heavily implying SSJ3 Goku (And maybe SSJ2 Vegeta) surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. While Gohan is most likely rusty, nothing implies Gotenks is weaker.

The Vegeta line could be taken in the context of him proclaiming superiority over the other Saiyans, not necessarily everyone else. Or you could just go with the "arrogant prick" route. Neither solution is perfect, but it's either ignore Vegeta implying he'd beat everyone without Super Saiyan, or ignore Beerus stating Goku couldn't beat Freeza without Super Saiyan. I just think the Beerus thing is a bit more direct. If you feel Vegeta's superiority line has more weight to it than Beerus', more power to you.

As far as Goku possibly surpassing Gotenks, Gotenks only appeared as a Super Saiyan in the movie, so it's not far-fetched at all that Goku would be stronger than him (I personally don't believe Gotenks ever got stronger than SS3 Goku without SS3 himself, but whatever). Gotenks being weaker than SS2 Vegeta is a lot more iffy, but the movie doesn't strongly imply that anyways.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo wasn't around at time. And when Vegeta is wrong, he is latter proven wrong in the arc, like when he was bragging about being the strongest and got his ass landed to Freeza, or 18. If AT wanted to prove Vegeta wrong, he'd do in the arc, not in a movie more than 20 years after the series ended.

Also, BoGs later contradicts himself by heavily implying SSJ3 Goku (And maybe SSJ2 Vegeta) surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. While Gohan is most likely rusty, nothing implies Gotenks is weaker.

The Vegeta line could be taken in the context of him proclaiming superiority over the other Saiyans, not necessarily everyone else. Or you could just go with the "arrogant prick" route. Neither solution is perfect, but it's either ignore Vegeta implying he'd beat everyone without Super Saiyan, or ignore Beerus stating Goku couldn't beat Freeza without Super Saiyan. I just think the Beerus thing is a bit more direct. If you feel Vegeta's superiority line has more weight to it than Beerus', more power to you.

As far as Goku possibly surpassing Gotenks, Gotenks only appeared as a Super Saiyan in the movie, so it's not far-fetched at all that Goku would be stronger than him (I personally don't believe Gotenks ever got stronger than SS3 Goku without SS3 himself, but whatever). Gotenks being weaker than SS2 Vegeta is a lot more iffy, but the movie doesn't strongly imply that anyways.

Let's analyze Vegeta's statement:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

He knows 18 and Kuririn are going to fight. Why wouldn't he count with them? Because they are on the same trash tier with him. The true winner is sure to be one of the Saiyans.

Also, i was refering to the series, and i also mistaked the series and the manga and thought Gotenks was SSJ3 against Beerus. Anyway, surpassing SSJ Gotenks still a big deal for him, considering SSJ Gotenks was already a good chunk stronger than him even before the Rosat.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

But I've already wasted enough time at this point, and my original answer to Noah still stands (because, as I detailed, that's what all the official statements add up to), so I will drop it now.

I don't know why people believe the Saiyans had surpassed 100% FP Freeza in some point of the series. I mean just because Vegeta said he would win the tournament anyway even with the no SSJ rule? He's just acting like the same arrogant prick he always was.

Or we're supposed to believe Base Vegeta became stronger than both #18 and Piccolo? That's ridiculous.

Piccolo wasn't around at time. And when Vegeta is wrong, he is latter proven wrong in the arc, like when he was bragging about being the strongest and got his ass landed to Freeza, or 18. If AT wanted to prove Vegeta wrong, he'd do in the arc, not in a movie more than 20 years after the series ended.

Also, BoGs later contradicts himself by heavily implying SSJ3 Goku (And maybe SSJ2 Vegeta) surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. While Gohan is most likely rusty, nothing implies Gotenks is weaker.

Piccolo wasn't around at time. And when Vegeta is wrong, he is latter proven wrong in the arc, like when he was bragging about being the strongest and got his ass landed to Freeza, or 18. If AT wanted to prove Vegeta wrong, he'd do in the arc, not in a movie more than 20 years after the series ended.

Also, BoGs later contradicts himself by heavily implying SSJ3 Goku (And maybe SSJ2 Vegeta) surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. While Gohan is most likely rusty, nothing implies Gotenks is weaker.

The Vegeta line could be taken in the context of him proclaiming superiority over the other Saiyans, not necessarily everyone else. Or you could just go with the "arrogant prick" route. Neither solution is perfect, but it's either ignore Vegeta implying he'd beat everyone without Super Saiyan, or ignore Beerus stating Goku couldn't beat Freeza without Super Saiyan. I just think the Beerus thing is a bit more direct. If you feel Vegeta's superiority line has more weight to it than Beerus', more power to you.

As far as Goku possibly surpassing Gotenks, Gotenks only appeared as a Super Saiyan in the movie, so it's not far-fetched at all that Goku would be stronger than him (I personally don't believe Gotenks ever got stronger than SS3 Goku without SS3 himself, but whatever). Gotenks being weaker than SS2 Vegeta is a lot more iffy, but the movie doesn't strongly imply that anyways.

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

[DBZ Macky]

Am I the only one who doesn't think Base Vegetto is actually stronger than SS3 Goku? I'd say he's probably a bit stronger than SS Goku (around Super Perfect Cell), but that's about it.

He's clearly weaker than Buuhan, who literally does not stop mentioning how he's just toying around with him. It had been stated in the Anime several times (I lost count), that Buu had been holding back on him. Not to mention that Base Vegetto's greatest feat is him deflecting Buu's planetary ball, and he did seem pretty proud of it too, as if it was almost all he was capable of. Which again, puts him somewhere below Super Perfect Cell who boasted about being able to destroy the entire solar system.

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

I'd place him exactly equal to SS Goku. It just seems to fit perfectly with the scale Piccolo < Kaioshin < SS Gohan.

EDIT: Not to mention that there's tons of misinformation spread in the community about his Base Form. That particular Daizenshuu entry simply states that "there can be no doubt that his strength surpasses that of a Super Saiyan 3", but for some reason, this person is not only assuming that it refers to his Base form, but also passing it as a fact among his gullible audience.

[DanielSSJ]

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

All we really know is that he's stronger than Boo-Arc Piccolo but weaker than the full-grown Super Saiyans. I tend to stick him a bit above the Cell Juniors. In units of millions:

Cell Games
Son Goku: 60
-- Super Saiyan: 3,000
Son Gohan: 72
-- Super Saiyan: 3,600
Vegeta/Trunks: 36
-- Super Saiyan: 1,800
Piccolo: 1,200
Cell Juniors: 2,000

Majin Boo
Son Gohan: 64
-- Super Saiyan: 3,200
Son Goku: 90
-- Super Saiyan: 4,500
Vegeta: 75
-- Super Saiyan: 3,750
Piccolo: 1,800
Kaioshin: 2,500

Am I the only one who doesn't think Base Vegetto is actually stronger than SS3 Goku? I'd say he's probably a bit stronger than SS Goku (around Super Perfect Cell), but that's about it.

He's clearly weaker than Buuhan, who literally does not stop mentioning how he's just toying around with him. It had been stated in the Anime several times (I lost count), that Buu had been holding back on him. Not to mention that Base Vegetto's greatest feat is him deflecting Buu's planetary ball, and he did seem pretty proud of it too, as if it was almost all he was capable of. Which again, puts him somewhere below Super Perfect Cell who boasted about being able to destroy the entire solar system.

EDIT: Not to mention that there's tons of misinformation spread in the community about his Base Form. That particular Daizenshuu entry simply states that "there can be no doubt that his strength surpasses that of a Super Saiyan 3", but for some reason, this person is not only assuming that it refers to his Base form, but also passing it as a fact among his gullible audience.

Given that Vegetto transforms almost immediately in the manga, there's no reason for his base to be all that high. I usually have Super Vegetto about 2~3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo. Dividing that number by fifty leaves base Vegetto at exactly half of SS3 Goku, and a smidge stronger than the fat Majin Boo.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

I'd place him exactly equal to SS Goku. It just seems to fit perfectly with the scale Piccolo < Kaioshin < SS Gohan.

You mean Ssj Gohan from the buu saga?

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

All we really know is that he's stronger than Boo-Arc Piccolo but weaker than the full-grown Super Saiyans. I tend to stick him a bit above the Cell Juniors. In units of millions:

Cell Games
Son Goku: 60
-- Super Saiyan: 3,000
Son Gohan: 72
-- Super Saiyan: 3,600
Vegeta/Trunks: 36
-- Super Saiyan: 1,800
Piccolo: 1,200
Cell Juniors: 2,000

Majin Boo
Son Gohan: 64
-- Super Saiyan: 3,200
Son Goku: 90
-- Super Saiyan: 4,500
Vegeta: 75
-- Super Saiyan: 3,750
Piccolo: 1,800
Kaioshin: 2,500

This answer is fair enough, since in El Manga Legendario it is confirmed Kaioshin = Ssj Goku cell Games. But there is enough evidence suggesting that Base Goku Buu saga > Kaioshin. How would you react to that?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Given that Vegetto transforms almost immediately in the manga, there's no reason for his base to be all that high. I usually have Super Vegetto about 2~3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo. Dividing that number by fifty leaves base Vegetto at exactly half of SS3 Goku, and a smidge stronger than the fat Majin Boo.

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:



This Guide is most reliable.

The Manga NEVER contradicted it. The anime however furthered this point.

[Helios518]

Given that Vegetto transforms almost immediately in the manga, there's no reason for his base to be all that high. I usually have Super Vegetto about 2~3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo. Dividing that number by fifty leaves base Vegetto at exactly half of SS3 Goku, and a smidge stronger than the fat Majin Boo.

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:



This Guide is most reliable.

The Manga NEVER contradicted it. The anime however furthered this point.

What guide even is that?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Given that Vegetto transforms almost immediately in the manga, there's no reason for his base to be all that high. I usually have Super Vegetto about 2~3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo. Dividing that number by fifty leaves base Vegetto at exactly half of SS3 Goku, and a smidge stronger than the fat Majin Boo.

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:



This Guide is most reliable.

The Manga NEVER contradicted it. The anime however furthered this point.

What guide even is that?

El Manga Legendario. Made by Bird studio, Akira's main studio. They have the best informations regarding the dbz cast: