Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:37 pm

ZombieVito wrote:What statements? Goku's guess?

I'm following an official guide that was written after the fact.

Also Daniel is right about the latent power. Kuririn could feel Trunks power in SSG3 while he was in grade 2 so it can happen.
Goku's predictions that he was sure of, two confirmations from Piccolo, Kuririn calling Gotenks the strongest and the entry from Volume 42 and Gotenks' own confidence on beating Boo after Piccolo's test. Important to note how he is not contradicted by Piccolo (Like he was when he left to fight in base), defused the moment he was about to fight Boo and before getting another chance to fight Boo (Where the boys were lounging around instead of training, like Piccolo told'em to after seeing Base Gotenks), Boo went throught a super power up.

The guide that is based on the manga that implies the exact opposite of what the guidebook implies? :eh: Not exactly seeing where the "fact" is when the guidebook makes an assumption that has no base on the manga.

He isn't. It's never stated Piccolo sensed any latent power coming from Gotenks, only his regular power. He says Gotenks has powered up, makes no mention of anything deeper, is totally unaware of his ability to transform and instantly losts his hope when Boo is shown to be stronger than they thought.

Btw i just noticed you have Pure Boo considerably above Goku. Why? They were on a complete stalemate even though Goku's energy was constantly decreasing.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:38 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Goku's predictions that he was sure of, two confirmations from Piccolo, Kuririn calling Gotenks the strongest and the entry from Volume 42 and Gotenks' own confidence on beating Boo after Piccolo's test. Important to note how he is not contradicted by Piccolo (Like he was when he left to fight in base), defused the moment he was about to fight Boo and before getting another chance to fight Boo (Where the boys were lounging around instead of training, like Piccolo told'em to after seeing Base Gotenks), Boo went throught a super power up.

The guide that is based on the manga that implies the exact opposite of what the guidebook implies? :eh: Not exactly seeing where the "fact" is when the guidebook makes an assumption that has no base on the manga.

He isn't. It's never stated Piccolo sensed any latent power coming from Gotenks, only his regular power. He says Gotenks has powered up, makes no mention of anything deeper, is totally unaware of his ability to transform and instantly losts his hope when Boo is shown to be stronger than they thought.

Btw i just noticed you have Pure Boo considerably above Goku. Why? They were on a complete stalemate even though Goku's energy was constantly decreasing.
You mean Goku's guess about a person who didn't even exist yet, Piccolo and the others giving vague compliments to Gotenks' power without making any actual comparision or confirmation, and the confidence of an cocky, reckless little kid who's most well-known trait is his habit of overestimating himself? I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to when you brought up Vol. 42.

Gotenks needed Super Saiyan 3 to match Evil Boo's power. The only way to explain why Piccolo thought base Gotenks might have a shot is that either (A) he caught a whiff of Gotenks' hidden power and mistakenly attributed it to Gotenks' base form, or (B) he's an idiot.

This may just be me, but I've always thought that the point of Gotenks was that he wasn't as strong as he was made out to be. Fusion was touted as this be-all-end-all super move, and when we see it in action via the kids, it's kinda a letdown. Gotenks is either too weak or too stupid to get the job done, hence why Gohan, and later Goku and Vegeta had to finish it. It reminds me of that Spongebob episode where Plankton gets atomized and analyzed by his computer. Gotenks: 1% STrength, 99% Hot Gas.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:03 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: You mean Goku's guess about a person who didn't even exist yet, Piccolo and the others giving vague compliments to Gotenks' power without making any actual comparision or confirmation, and the confidence of an cocky, reckless little kid who's most well-known trait is his habit of overestimating himself? I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to when you brought up Vol. 42.

Gotenks needed Super Saiyan 3 to match Evil Boo's power. The only way to explain why Piccolo thought base Gotenks might have a shot is that either (A) he caught a whiff of Gotenks' hidden power and mistakenly attributed it to Gotenks' base form, or (B) he's an idiot.

This may just be me, but I've always thought that the point of Gotenks was that he wasn't as strong as he was made out to be. Fusion was touted as this be-all-end-all super move, and when we see it in action via the kids, it's kinda a letdown. Gotenks is either too weak or too stupid to get the job done, hence why Gohan, and later Goku and Vegeta had to finish it. It reminds me of that Spongebob episode where Plankton gets atomized and analyzed by his computer. Gotenks: 1% STrength, 99% Hot Gas.
Goku not knowing Gotenks at time is irrevelant. It's like saying Vegeta and Trunks were wrong about surpassing 1/2 SSJ Goku because it was never confirmed.

Goku had knowledge about how the fusion could make two weaklings a power. He also gauged the boy's strength and fought Boo. There's no way Goku could be wrong. He left the earth's fate on them and said he was fully sure of himself.

Piccolo gave the ok to Gotenks ki saying he is really incredible (Really is a word used to confirm stuff, mind you) and Viz even has him saying "You're incredible, indeed"
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Image

The way Piccolo words is statements implies he's confirming something. What else you he confirm but not his expectatives?

Considering Gotenks' statement was a statement that was not contradicted, i think it holds more water than a fan opinion. Unless you're trying to tell me everything a cocky character says is a lie. It's not like they can never tell a truth once in a while.

Here's the entry. Viz completely changes it, but according to Herms it says the boys have perfected fusion:
Time passed...The wizard Babidi awakened Majin Boo, who began killing all life on Earth. In order to defeat this mighty foe, Goten and Trunks at last perfected Fusion. However, just as Majin Boo befriended Satan and was about to give up killing, a terrible change occurred...!!
viewtopic.php?p=969068#p969564

Does this reminds you of something?
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”


The entry confirms all of what i'm saying. Goten and Trunks have mastered fusion, but Boo transforms and all the effort they had was for nothing.

Kuririn also says Gotenks is the strongest:
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”

Although Kuririn seems to be only repeating what Goku said, he sensed Gotenks' Ki and would've changed his mind had Gotenks been weaker than expected.

And Piccolo tells Boo the boys were supposed to fight once they wake up:
Image
Although this seems pretty obvious considering Piccolo let the kids sleep on the Lookout for a day instead of send them to Rosat.

As for Base Gotenks, you forgot Option C) Base Gotenks surpassed his SSJ self by a long shot. Trunks' statement on the matter totally debunks the idea of Piccolo sensing any deeper power, he flat out says Base Gotenks can match Boo:
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”


I think the issue with Gotenks is that even though he's the strongest (Until Gohan is finished with Old man Kaioshin, of course) he's too immature to fight properly. When he could've killed Fat Boo he wastes his time showing off for Piccolo, and even after Boo kills all of his family and friends he still spends his time fucking around with Boo and defuses before he can finish the job.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:18 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Goku not knowing Gotenks at time is irrevelant. It's like saying Vegeta and Trunks were wrong about surpassing 1/2 SSJ Goku because it was never confirmed. Goku had knowledge about how the fusion could make two weaklings a power. He also gauged the boy's strength and fought Boo. There's no way Goku could be wrong. He left the earth's fate on them and said he was fully sure of himself.
Your comparison is off-base. Vegeta and Trunks already knew what half power Goku felt like and can gage that compared to their current power. Goku is making a guess based on what he saw of the fused Metamorians and what he saw of the kids individually. Moreover, Goku's not a mathematician. He can barely count. Even if the Fusion Dance follows a predictable math formula (I don't think that it does), Goku shouldn't be able to calculate it in his head.
Piccolo gave the ok to Gotenks ki saying he is really incredible (Really is a word used to confirm stuff, mind you) and Viz even has him saying "You're incredible, indeed"
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Image

The way Piccolo words is statements implies he's confirming something. What else you he confirm but not his expectatives?

Considering Gotenks' statement was a statement that was not contradicted, i think it holds more water than a fan opinion. Unless you're trying to tell me everything a cocky character says is a lie. It's not like they can never tell a truth once in a while.
I think the key word in Piccolo's statement is the "but". As in "You're really powerful, but I need to see you in action before I'm convinced." Yes, Gotenks' bragging was never contradicted but it wasn't confirmed either.
Here's the entry. Viz completely changes it, but according to Herms it says the boys have perfected fusion:
Time passed...The wizard Babidi awakened Majin Boo, who began killing all life on Earth. In order to defeat this mighty foe, Goten and Trunks at last perfected Fusion. However, just as Majin Boo befriended Satan and was about to give up killing, a terrible change occurred...!!
viewtopic.php?p=969068#p969564

Does this reminds you of something?
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”


The entry confirms all of what i'm saying. Goten and Trunks have mastered fusion, but Boo transforms and all the effort they had was for nothing.
Okay? The entry doesn't actually say that Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku or Boo or anyone else. Just that they've mastered Fusion. It's connection with Goku's statement is tenuous at best.
Kuririn also says Gotenks is the strongest:
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”

Although Kuririn seems to be only repeating what Goku said, he sensed Gotenks' Ki and would've changed his mind had Gotenks been weaker than expected.
Kuririn has also sensed Evil Boo's ki, and he needed to be told that Gotenks wouldn't match up to that. It's pretty obvious that he's trying (and failing) to reassure himself that everything will be okay.
And Piccolo tells Boo the boys were supposed to fight once they wake up:
Image
Although this seems pretty obvious considering Piccolo let the kids sleep on the Lookout for a day instead of send them to Rosat.
There's nothing that indicates that Piccolo originally intended for the kids to fight Boo after waking up. He just said that to appease Boo.
As for Base Gotenks, you forgot Option C) Base Gotenks surpassed his SSJ self by a long shot. Trunks' statement on the matter totally debunks the idea of Piccolo sensing any deeper power, he flat out says Base Gotenks can match Boo:
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”


I think the issue with Gotenks is that even though he's the strongest (Until Gohan is finished with Old man Kaioshin, of course) he's too immature to fight properly. When he could've killed Fat Boo he wastes his time showing off for Piccolo, and even after Boo kills all of his family and friends he still spends his time fucking around with Boo and defuses before he can finish the job.
You seemed to have missed my point. In practice, Gotenks needed Super Saiyan 3 to match Evil Boo's power. Even if you disregard the SEG multipliers, there's still a massive gap between base Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The fact that Piccolo thought that base Gotenks might be strong enough to handle an opponent who by all rights should be many times stronger than him means either (A) Piccolo somehow got an inkling of the power that would make Gotenks strong enough to handle Boo, or (B) he saw that Gotenks improved and had a flash of misplaced desperate hope that really shouldn't be taken as hard evidence in a debate. Moreover, Gotenks originally thought that his base would be enough to fight Fat Boo, and got his ass kicked. He thought the same thing when Evil Boo showed up, and the same thing happened. Why is anything he or his components say about their power taken at face value?

Look, I'm not saying that it's impossible that Gotenks could be as strong as you're making him out to be. What I am saying is that there's nothing that requires Gotenks to be that stronger, either. All Gotenks really has to his name is a bunch of vague compliments to his strength. No direct comparisons or feats of strength until he goes Super Saiyan 3. Coupled with his penchant of getting in over his head, you'll have to forgive me if I think that he was a bit overhyped.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:17 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:Your comparison is off-base. Vegeta and Trunks already knew what half power Goku felt like and can gage that compared to their current power. Goku is making a guess based on what he saw of the fused Metamorians and what he saw of the kids individually. Moreover, Goku's not a mathematician. He can barely count. Even if the Fusion Dance follows a predictable math formula (I don't think that it does), Goku shouldn't be able to calculate it in his head.
I'm actually refering to how they (Actually only Vegeta, but still) were confident on surpassing 50% Goku before entering the Rosat.

Using Goku's unability to count is a poor argument because fusion isn't a formula, nor Ki sensing works like scouters. Why don't go ahead and say Fat Boo > Gogeta/Gokhan because Goku is bad at math too? The boys are pretty close to Gohan btw, and even though minimal gains for the fusers = huge gains for fusion Gohan's advantage was too minimal to guarantee a huge gap between Gokhan and Gotenks. Just Goku knowing the boys are almost on pair with Gohan and the fact a fusion between him and Gohan can take down Boo is enough for him to be sure of Gotenks' chances.
I think the key word in Piccolo's statement is the "but". As in "You're really powerful, but I need to see you in action before I'm convinced."
ore like he wants to see if Gotenks is off balance considering Gotenks came out deformed twice before, or wants to see Gotenks' fighting ki (By seeing him flying?) and be sure Gotenks is stronger than Goku and Fatso. No way in this invalidates Gotenks > Goku though. Piccolo wasn't acting anything near to this when Base Gotenks formed.
Yes, Gotenks' bragging was never contradicted but it wasn't confirmed either.
So i guess Freeza can't one shot Namek because it wasn't "confirmed?" But actually Gotenks case ends to be even more obvious, as he is the confirmation of Goku's words, unless you're asking for confirmation of the confirmation.
Okay? The entry doesn't actually say that Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku or Boo or anyone else. Just that they've mastered Fusion. It's connection with Goku's statement is tenuous at best.
Goku says they will surpass Boo if they perfect the fusion and the intro says they perfect fusion. It's not like Dora the Explorer were everything has the thrown at ours faces.
Kuririn has also sensed Evil Boo's ki, and he needed to be told that Gotenks wouldn't match up to that. It's pretty obvious that he's trying (and failing) to reassure himself that everything will be okay.
If anything this solidifies even more my argument. It's only after sensing Super Boo that Kuririn freaks out at the idea of Gotenks not being strong enough for the task. When Kuririn sees Gotenks he only says he's "Stronger, but still as imature". Not exactly a confirmation but still totally different from his reaction to Super Boo.
There's nothing that indicates that Piccolo originally intended for the kids to fight Boo after waking up. He just said that to appease Boo.
Piccolo allowing the kids do jack for a days does. They'd be training if Gotenks wasn't strong enough.
You seemed to have missed my point. In practice, Gotenks needed Super Saiyan 3 to match Evil Boo's power. Even if you disregard the SEG multipliers, there's still a massive gap between base Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The fact that Piccolo thought that base Gotenks might be strong enough to handle an opponent who by all rights should be many times stronger than him means either (A) Piccolo somehow got an inkling of the power that would make Gotenks strong enough to handle Boo, or (B) he saw that Gotenks improved and had a flash of misplaced desperate hope that really shouldn't be taken as hard evidence in a debate. Moreover, Gotenks originally thought that his base would be enough to fight Fat Boo, and got his ass kicked. He thought the same thing when Evil Boo showed up, and the same thing happened. Why is anything he or his components say about their power taken at face value?
That's because Boo wasn't fighting, so his "fighting ki" wasn't active. Back on Saiyan Arc none of the Z Fighters were aware of how badly outclassed they were until Nappa started fighting.
Even ignoring this, i don't think Boo far outclassing Base Gotenks means the later is weaker than Pre Rosat SSJ Gotenks. Piccolo could've been acting delusional and hyping Gotenks to be >> Boo, but the only way he'd act like that was if Gotenks surpassed his former SSJ self, so the argument ends where it starts. I still think my first option of them sensing Boo's resting ki is more likely, as Piccolo never acted delusional before.

I know Gotenks' prior fight with Boo makes Trunks' statement doubtful, but considering the difference between the statements ("I'll bring his corpse" from "We can fight evenly") and the difference in Gotenks' reactions (First he straight up admits inferirority, later he's confused and thinks Boo is holding back his pain) i think Trunks' confidence on the Rosat isn't pure arrogance, especially considering Piccolo got on the same conclusion.
Look, I'm not saying that it's impossible that Gotenks could be as strong as you're making him out to be. What I am saying is that there's nothing that requires Gotenks to be that stronger, either. All Gotenks really has to his name is a bunch of vague compliments to his strength. No direct comparisons or feats of strength until he goes Super Saiyan 3. Coupled with his penchant of getting in over his head, you'll have to forgive me if I think that he was a bit overhyped.
I can somewhat see your point for Base Gotenks as he ended up to be a joke, but definitely not for Gotenks. The way Fat Boo was discarted as soon as Gotenks was formed makes me think Toriyama didn't want to end the arc so soon, otherwise why not have Fat Boo kicking Gotenks' ass? Instead we have all of the Gotenks' hype being watered down not by Gotenks being shown to be below the expectatives, but by Boo being above them with his bottomless power.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:27 pm

My numbers for this situation btw:

SSJ2 Goku: 1
~ SSJ3: 10

Fat Boo: 9
~ Good: 4
~ Evil: 5
~ Super: 210
~ Pure: 9.9

Gotenks: 4.8
~ SSJ: 12

Gotenks (Rosat): 24
~ SSJ: 60
~ SSJ2: 120
~ SSJ3: 240

Chou Gohan: 360
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:41 pm

Yeah, there's a LOT of stuff up to interpretation when it comes to Gotenks. I don't think there's any reasonable way to believe he's weaker than Goku (at least outside of Toei-Land), but just how much stronger than Goku he ends up is really jumbled, indirect, and very subjective.

I try to look past the vague implications or unfulfilled hype, and stick more to the overall flow of the story with guidebook tidbits for some extra clarity. I'm fine with D7's suggestion that Gotenks was still a SS2-level "work in progress" before his Room of Spirit and Time session, but make sure he's at least capable of taking down Fat Boo at SS1 afterwards. Plus, like Daniel pointed out, there were a lot of predictions and guesses about Gotenks' strength before he actually appeared, but no actual direct measurement or confirmation of it until later when he's using SS3.

So in the end, for me, Gotenks ends up significantly stronger than Goku, but only by a few fold difference, not some outrageous and beyond-suspension-of-disbelief hundreds of fold difference like you can end up with if you take everything literally. That more than fulfilled the story requirements, but doesn't leave an insurmountably massive power gap that Goku could never believably close.


SS3 Goku: 36
Fat Boo: 15
SS Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT): 7
-- Post-RoSaT: 15
-- SS3: 120
Evil Boo: 100
Ultimate Gohan: 150
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:16 pm

I still fail to see how Goku saying multiple times that Gotenks will do the job and even saying once Rosat won't be needed can be called "indirect" and "subjective*. I might as well say Beerus' statement is subjective because nobody confirmed it. At least this one has evidence from the manga...

Lack of someone flat out saying "Goku was right, Gotenks is stronger than him and Boo!" Sounds more like an excuse as Goku's claim would need to be contradicted first. It's not like we lack confirmation though, as i showed above.

Of course, there is the Daizenshuu entry, though it seems inaccurate with what's shown. SSJ Gotenks is treated as a much more respectable deal as Base Gotenks, what comes off as bull if both are on the same fodder plateau.

Gotenks' advantage over Goku could be as low as 2x or as high as 20,000x; as long as one follows the power scaling i'm cool.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:28 pm

It's not the prediction that's vague, it's the outcome. The Majin Boo arc is chock full of direct "A is stronger than B!" lines to an almost bizarre degree, but they're suspiciously absent when it comes to pre-RoSaT Gotenks. There's a lot of predictions and anticipations about his strength, but then no follow-up with, "wow, Goku was right, his ki really is greater than Boo's!" or anything of the sort. Just a handful of generic "wow so strong" comments instead.

In a way that's kind of a good thing, because it allows room for multiple takes like this. You could easily just assume straight-up that Goku saw the future and SS1 Gotenks was stronger than himself or Fat Boo right off the bat. Or instead you could say that the superior power Goku predicted only manifested when Gotenks reached SS3 later. Or you could go with basically anything in-between, and until we're given more clarity then there's no one single correct option.

The silver lining of uncertainty is freedom for interpretation.

Though honestly, if I could somehow go back in time and mind-control Toriyama while he was writing the Boo arc... believe me, "uncertainty about Gotenks' power" is one thing I'd fix. I'd do it by taking away anything higher than SS1 for him so that he and Fusion seem stronger and more special overall. Because as things stand now, the story makes Gotenks seem pretty overrated and useless until he gets Super Saiyan 3. I even made a hypothetical mini-list along those lines a while back.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 pm

There's something I think we might forget, it's that Goku was suppressed agaisnt Fat Buu since he later on says that he would've killed Fat Buu easily but wanted the kids to do the job themselves with their fusion, and when he fought Fat Buu in SSJ3 they more on par with each other, he was also saving time for Trunks to return with the radar, as well as the fact that Goku needed to save energy for his time on Earth not to run out. Don't you think that when Goku told Fat Buu that someone stronger than him would be facing him, he is talking about someone stronger than his suppressed SSJ3, being the one that Fat Buu knows since he fought with him? That would make SSJ3 Goku still stronger than Gotenks in SSJ if Goku is in full power (aka his full X400 base). If the guide said Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, but not Goku, then that means that if we tie that with Goku's comment, then SSJ Gotenks can end up being stronger than Fat Buu and suppressed SSJ3 Goku but weaker than SSJ3 Goku in his full power (his full x400 base).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:57 am

That was basically my whole point as to why pre-RoSaT!Gotenks wasn't necessarily stronger than Goku. Goku's statement about the fused kids being better than him is predicated on "I can't beat Majin Boo, but if the kids fuse they could do it", which is thrown into question when Goku says "jk I could've beaten Fat Boo all along lol!"
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:05 pm

Kaboom wrote:It's not the prediction that's vague, it's the outcome. The Majin Boo arc is chock full of direct "A is stronger than B!" lines to an almost bizarre degree, but they're suspiciously absent when it comes to pre-RoSaT Gotenks. There's a lot of predictions and anticipations about his strength, but then no follow-up with, "wow, Goku was right, his ki really is greater than Boo's!" or anything of the sort. Just a handful of generic "wow so strong" comments instead.

In a way that's kind of a good thing, because it allows room for multiple takes like this. You could easily just assume straight-up that Goku saw the future and SS1 Gotenks was stronger than himself or Fat Boo right off the bat. Or instead you could say that the superior power Goku predicted only manifested when Gotenks reached SS3 later. Or you could go with basically anything in-between, and until we're given more clarity then there's no one single correct option.

The silver lining of uncertainty is freedom for interpretation.

Though honestly, if I could somehow go back in time and mind-control Toriyama while he was writing the Boo arc... believe me, "uncertainty about Gotenks' power" is one thing I'd fix. I'd do it by taking away anything higher than SS1 for him so that he and Fusion seem strongerand more special overall. Because as things stand now, the story makes Gotenks seem pretty overrated and useless until he gets Super Saiyan 3. I even made a hypothetical mini-list along those lines a while back.
But wouldn't a contradiction of Goku's words be necessary first? Goku makes his claims being aware of their powers and aware of how strong fusion is and is sure on his words. We do have confirmation though, like i posted above to Daniel. Even the fact that the characters treated SSJ Gotenks as much more respectable than Base Gotenks speaks volumes IMO.

I hate to be the guy who tells people they're wrong, but this is one of the cases i have to say this. SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo is one of the only things on the Boo Arc that is clear cut. It couldn't be Goku expecting Gotenks to unlock another transformation because he said Gotenks wouldn't need training, and he's surprised when he sees Gotenks unlocked Super Saiyan 3.

If i could be on Toriyama's chair, i'd have Gotenks fight Fat Boo. Not only i would settle the question, but i think this would be also be one of the funniest fights. Too bad the arc couldn't end with Gotenks killing Boo because of Gohan.
dragonball0900 wrote:There's something I think we might forget, it's that Goku was suppressed agaisnt Fat Buu since he later on says that he would've killed Fat Buu easily but wanted the kids to do the job themselves with their fusion, and when he fought Fat Buu in SSJ3 they more on par with each other, he was also saving time for Trunks to return with the radar, as well as the fact that Goku needed to save energy for his time on Earth not to run out. Don't you think that when Goku told Fat Buu that someone stronger than him would be facing him, he is talking about someone stronger than his suppressed SSJ3, being the one that Fat Buu knows since he fought with him? That would make SSJ3 Goku still stronger than Gotenks in SSJ if Goku is in full power (aka his full X400 base). If the guide said Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, but not Goku, then that means that if we tie that with Goku's comment, then SSJ Gotenks can end up being stronger than Fat Buu and suppressed SSJ3 Goku but weaker than SSJ3 Goku in his full power (his full x400 base).
That certainly is possible, albeit doubtful. Goku stated he has achieved the form just recently, so if it took years of training to be able to suppress regular Super Saiyan properly, then i doubt Goku could with a way more strainful and recent form. It still more likely than Goku being wrong by a long shot despite being sure on his words and everyone and their mother confirming him. I believe Goku was just not actively trying to kill him, pulling his punches and such.
DanielSSJ wrote:That was basically my whole point as to why pre-RoSaT!Gotenks wasn't necessarily stronger than Goku. Goku's statement about the fused kids being better than him is predicated on "I can't beat Majin Boo, but if the kids fuse they could do it", which is thrown into question when Goku says "jk I could've beaten Fat Boo all along lol!"
Weren't you arguing for SSJ2s > Gotenks?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:01 pm

Kaboom wrote:SS3 Goku: 36
Fat Boo: 15
SS Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT): 7
-- Post-RoSaT: 15
-- SS3: 120
Evil Boo: 100
Ultimate Gohan: 150
It wasn't implied that a (Pre or Post RoSaT) Super Gotenks would be stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Also how strong would be a hypothetical Super Gotenks 2 in that list?
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:17 pm

A sequence I like to insert into this discussion:

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”


It's a small thing but demonstrates how Goku wasn't aware of Goten and Trunks full power prior to this. Than later while taking to Piccolo he calls the whole ordeal a gamble.
I go with Goku overestimating the kids or underestimating Boo until he fought him, maybe a combination of both.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:41 pm

Yeah i'm aware of this. Though it sounds contradictory as he thought fusing with Gohan (What requires suppresing down to Gohan's level) would be enough to beat Boo, and Gohan is shown to be above the boys by a hair.

I find doubtful the gamble would be about power, Piccolo brings the term "Gamble" while refering about time:
Image

And Goku says he's gonna take the gamble based on the boys' power:
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…


And any doubts Goku had become irrelevant when Piccolo gives the ok to Gotenks' Ki and just asks for a speed demonstration.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Weren't you arguing for SSJ2s > Gotenks?
Not exactly. I was arguing that the statements surrounding Gotenks are vague enough that he didn't have to be as strong has he was initially made out to be.
LightBing wrote:A sequence I like to insert into this discussion:

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”


It's a small thing but demonstrates how Goku wasn't aware of Goten and Trunks full power prior to this. Than later while taking to Piccolo he calls the whole ordeal a gamble.
I go with Goku overestimating the kids or underestimating Boo until he fought him, maybe a combination of both.
You know, I never noticed that part, and it works well when you combine it with Goku's "Boo's strength is like a lie" line.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:And any doubts Goku had become irrelevant when Piccolo gives the ok to Gotenks' Ki and just asks for a speed demonstration.
I always assumed that when Piccolo was talking about movement, he was talking about seeing how Gotenks would fight. As has already been established, it can be hard to get an accurate reading on someone's power when they're just standing around, even if they're not suppressing anything. Piccolo probably wanted Gotenks to do some katas so he could get a better read on what Gotenks' true abilities were like. Gotenks just decided to dick Piccolo around and flew off to show his speed.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:42 pm

Revised PLs for Super


[spoiler]Super Saiyan=[50xbase]
Super Saiyan 2=[2xSuper Saiyan]/[100xbase]
Super Saiyan 3=[4xSuper Saiyan 2]/[400xbase]
Quake of Fury=[320,000xbase]/[6,400xSuper Saiyan]
Super Saiyan God=[6,000,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[6,720,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Goku's Rage boost)=[6,850,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Post Vegeta's HTC training)=[1.25xSuper Saiyan God]/[7,500,000,000xbase]
Golden Frieza=[6,800,000,000xFinal form]
Golden Frieza(Post Hell training)=[7,500,000,000xFinal Form]
Super Saiyan Rose=[10xbase]
Super Saiyan 2(Full power)=[7.9xSuper Saiyan]/[395xbase]
Super Saiyan Grade 3=[14xSuper Saiyan]/[700xbase]
Super Saiyan Rage=[6,350,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan(Controlled)=[1,150,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Berserker=[40,000,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Berseker(Mastered)=[80,000,000,000xbase]
Barrier of Light=[1.9xMerged Zamasu]
Light of Justice=[100,000,000xMerged Zamasu]
Fusion multiplier[Gotenks]=A+B(78)
Fusion multiplier[Vegito]=A+B(3,840,000,000)
Fusion multiplier[Merged Zamasu]=A+B(1.05)
Fusion multiplier[Kefla]=A+B(90,000,000)[/spoiler]

Battle of Gods arc
[spoiler]Base Goku: 90,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 9,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 36,000,000,000

Beerus(Heavily suppressed): 10,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta: 90,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 9,000,000,000

Piccolo: 460,000,000

Base Goten: 600,000
Super Saiyan Goten: 30,000,000

Base Trunks: 620,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 31,000,000

Base Gotenks: 95,160,000
Super Saiyan Gotenks: 4,758,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 38,064,000,000

Ultimate Gohan(Rusty): 50,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of Fury): 28,800,000,000,000
Galick Gun: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus(10%): 100,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Goku(Collected Energy): 100,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan God Goku(Initial): 100,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku(1st power up): 200,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku(2nd power up): 400,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 600,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku(Saiyan Beyond God): 100,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku(God's crimson radiance): 600,000,000,004,500,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku(Powered up): 650,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Whis: 1,500,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Rebirth of F arc
[spoiler]Piccolo: 465,000,000

Shisami: 465,000,000

Base Gohan: 22,000,000
Base Gohan(Ultimate power): 750,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 1,100,000,000

Tagoma: 750,000,000
Ginyu(Tagoma's body): 950,000,000

First Form Frieza: 10,000,000,000
Final Form Frieza: 105,000,000,000

Base Goku: 105,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Suppressed): 635,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 705,600,000,000,000,000,000

Golden Frieza(Suppressed): 640,000,000,000,000,000,000
Golden Frieza: 714,000,000,000,000,000,000
Golden Frieza(Tired): 10,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta: 105,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 705,600,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]
Universe 6 arc
[spoiler]Base Gohan: 46,000,000
Base Gohan(Ultimate power): 1,500,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 2,300,000,000

Base Goku: 106,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 712,320,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken: 1,424,640,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx10: 7,123,200,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta: 106,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 5,300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 712,320,000,000,000,000,000

Piccolo: 1,500,000,000
Special beam cannon(Far beyond limits): 500,000,000,000

Botamo: 1,000,000,000

First Form Frost: 10,000,000,000
Assault Form Frost: 30,000,000,000
Final Form Frost: 94,000,000,000
Final Form Frost(Tired): 20,000,000,000

Magetta: 75,000,000,000

Base Cabba: 75,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Cabba: 3,750,000,000,000

Hit: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 995,000,000,000,000,000,000

Vados: 1,550,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Trunks arc
[spoiler]Base Future Trunks: 47,000,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 2,350,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks: 4,700,000,000

Future Dabura: 4,400,000,000

Future Trunks(Post Black fights): 100,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 5,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks(Suppressed): 11,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks(Full power): 39,500,000,000,000

Goku Black: 70,000,000,000,000

Base Goku: 107,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,350,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 10,700,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 42,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 719,040,000,000,000,000,000

Goku Black(Vs Goku): 4,500,000,000,000
Goku Black(1st power up): 5,350,000,000,000
Goku Black(2nd power up): 65,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta: 107,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 719,040,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Grade 3 Future Trunks: 70,000,000,000,000

Zamasu: 10,000,000,000,000

Base Future Trunks(Post training): 116,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 5,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks(Full power): 45,820,000,000,000

Base Goku Black(Zenkai): 70,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 700,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku Black(2nd Zenkai): 72,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 720,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Future Zamasu: 10,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Rage boost): 732,950,000,000,000,000,000

Goku Black(3rd Zenkai): 73,660,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 736,600,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks: 736,600,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta(Post training): 116,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Suppressed): 820,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku Black(Rage boost): 83,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 830,000,000,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu: 871,500,010,500,000,000,000
Merged Zamasu(Barrier of Light): 1,655,850,019,950,000,000,000
Light of Absolution: 850,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power): 870,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku(Full power, Beyond Limits): 116,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Full power): 870,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku: 1,740,000,000,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice): 87,150,001,050,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegito: 890,880,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito(Suppressed): 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu(Powered up): 348,600,004,200,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito(Full power): 6,681,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks(Sword of Light): 570,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Hit: 600,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Universe Survival arc
[spoiler]Good Boo(Docile): 5,000,000,000
Good Boo(Angry): 20,000,000,000
Good Boo(Full power): 24,000,000,000

Base Gohan: 85,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 4,250,000,000,000

Base Goku: 116,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 870,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken: 1,740,000,000,000,000,000,000

Basil: 7,000,000,000
Basil(Full power): 15,000,000,000
Basil(Drugged): 22,500,000,000

Lavender: 15,000,000,000

Bergamo: 85,000,000,000
Bergamo(Powered up): 800,000,000,000,000,000,000

Sidra: 960,000,000,000,000,000,000

Toppo: 850,000,000,000,000,000,000

Belmod: 1,020,000,000,000,000,000,000

Krillin: 80,000,000

Base Vegeta: 116,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 5,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 870,000,000,000,000,000,000

Good Boo(Post training): 117,000,000,000

Android 17: 750,000,000,000,000,000,000

Tien: 75,000,000

Master Roshi: 30,000,000
Master Roshi(Max power, Withcraft): 85,000,000,000

Piccolo: 100,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 8,500,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan(Original strength): 11,600,000,000,000

Base Gohan(Post training): 100,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 750,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 11,600,000,000,000

Base Goku(Post training): 117,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,850,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 877,500,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta(Post HTC training): 117,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 5,850,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 877,500,000,000,000,000,000

Final Form Frieza(Hell training): 117,000,000,000
Golden Frieza: 877,500,000,000,000,000,000

Sidra's Energy of Destruction: 800,000,000,000,000,000,000

Hop: 5,000,000,000

Oregano: 4,000,000,000

Roselle: 4,000,000,000

Hyssop: 7,000,000,000

Chappil: 10,000,000,000

Majora: 112,000,000,000

Nigrisshi: 5,000,000,000

Narirama: 9,000,000,000

Napapa: 85,000,000,000

Methiop: 80,000,000,000

Murichim: 95,000,000,000

Base Caulifla: 80,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Caulifla: 4,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla: 56,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla: 8,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Goku(Suppressed): 8,200,000,000,000

Base Kale: 10,000,000
Super Saiyan Berserker Kale: 400,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Heavily suppressed): 900,000,000,000,000,000,000

Kahseral: 100,000,000,000

Tupper: 90,000,000,000

Kettol: 90,000,000,000

Zoiray: 70,000,000,000

Cocotte: 65,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Kale(Controlled): 11,500,000,000,000

Rozie: 100,000,000,000

Kakunsa: 100,000,000,000

Ribrianne: 105,000,000,000

Rubalt: 85,000,000,000

Obuni: 100,000,000,000

Hit: 670,000,000,000,000,000,000

Dyspo: 75,000,000,000

Kunshi: 70,000,000,000

Super Saiyan God Goku: 702,000,000,000,000,000,000

Caway: 500,000

Ganos: 10,000,000
Transformed Ganos: 20,000,000,000
Transformed Ganos(Powered up): 80,000,000,000

Master Roshi(Max power, beyond limits): 95,000,000,000

Hermila: 60,000,000

Prum: 60,000,000

Maji Kayo(Muscular form): 6,000,000,000,000

Jimeze: 75,000,000,000

Final Form Frost: 105,000,000,000
Final Form Frost(100%): 150,000,000,000

Final Form Frieza(100%): 168,000,000,000

Super Ribrianne: 117,000,000,000

Jiren(Suppressed): 640,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 Goku: 17,550,000,000,000,000,000,000

Universe 7 Spirit Bomb: 570,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Less suppressed): 750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Ultra Instinct Goku(Initial): 670,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Ultra Instinct Goku(Evolving): 750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Powered up): 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Monna: 6,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Cabba: 7,500,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Goku(Less suppressed): 9,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku(Full power): 11,700,000,000,000

Base Caulifla(Potential unleashed): 115,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla: 11,500,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 46,800,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Berserker Kale(Mastered): 800,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan God Goku(Tired): 1,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Kefla(Suppressed): 3,000,000,000,000,000,000
Base Kefla(Full power): 7,475,650,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Kefla(Suppressed): 750,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Kefla(Energy increasing): 877,500,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Kefla(Full power): 598,052,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla: 1,196,104,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Ultra Instinct Goku(Powered up): 1,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla(Rage boost): 1,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Android 18: 110,000,000,000
Android 18(Love powered): 100,000,000,000,000

Super Ribrianne(Powered up): 80,000,000,000,000

Saonel: 100,000,000,000
Saonel(Namekian fusion): 600,000,000,000,000,000,000

Pirina: 100,000,000,000
Pirina(Namekian fusion): 600,000,000,000,000,000,000

Katopesla: 15,000,000,000
Katopesla(Ultimate mode): 4,500,000,000,000

Shantsa: 50,000

Koitsukai: 75,000,000,000

Panchia: 75,000,000,000

Bollarator: 75,000,000,000

Koichiarator: 750,000,000,000,000,000,000

Anilaza: 950,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Suppressed vs Vegeta): 400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Pride boost): 950,000,000,000,000,000,000
Beyond Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 17,550,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Powered up): 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beyond Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Tired): 970,000,000,000,000,000,000

God of Destruction Toppo: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jiren(Full power): 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:01 pm

Wow, don't even know if these are coherent, but I appreciate your hard work in still using big numbers at this point, UI Goku being at decillions and such
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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dragonball0900
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:26 pm

Right, here are my power levels for the Buu arc for now:

SSJ - 50x
SSJ2 - 100x
SSJ3 - 400x
Ultimate - 4000x
Fusion - 10X (x+x)
Potara Fusion (Rival Boost) - 3000X (x+y)

Goku: 90,000,000
SSJ Goku: 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Goku: 9,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku (Suppressed): 24,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku (Full Power): 36,000,000,000

Vegeta - 75,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 3,750,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta - 7,500,000,000
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta - 9,000,000,000

Gohan - 68,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,400,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 6,800,000,000
Gohan (Post Z Sword) - 70,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 7,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan - 280,000,000,000

Trunks (Pre ROSAT) - 24,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 1,200,000,000
Trunks (Post ROSAT) - 34,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 1,700,000,000

Goten (Pre ROSAT) - 20,000,000
SSJ Goten - 1,000,000,000
Goten (Post ROSAT) - 30,000,000
SSJ Goten - 1,500,000,000

Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) - 400,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 20,000,000,000
Gotenks (Post ROSAT) - 600,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 30,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks - 240,000,000,000

Piccolo (Weighted) - 1,400,000,000
Piccolo - 1,800,000,000

Supreme Kai - 2,500,000,000

Kibito - 50,000,000

Kibito Kai - 25,500,000,000

Pui Pui - 18,000

Yakon - 100,000,000

Dabura - 3,500,000,000

Fat Buu (Initial) - 9,000,000,000
Fat Buu - 20,000,000,000
Evil Buu - 11,000,000,000
Good Buu - 9,000,000,000

Super Buu - 200,000,000,000
Super Buutenks - 441,800,000,000
Super Buuccolo - 205,000,000,000
Super Buuhan - 485,000,000,000

Buff Buu - 225,000,000,000

Kid Buu - 30,000,000,000

Base Vegito - 500,000,000,000
SSJ Vegito - 25,000,000,000,000

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GreatSaiyaman123
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:09 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:Right, here are my power levels for the Buu arc for now:

SSJ - 50x
SSJ2 - 100x
SSJ3 - 400x
Ultimate - 4000x
Fusion - 10X (x+x)
Potara Fusion (Rival Boost) - 3000X (x+y)

Goku: 90,000,000
SSJ Goku: 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Goku: 9,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku (Suppressed): 24,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku (Full Power): 36,000,000,000

Vegeta - 75,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 3,750,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta - 7,500,000,000
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta - 9,000,000,000

Gohan - 68,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,400,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 6,800,000,000
Gohan (Post Z Sword) - 70,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 7,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan - 280,000,000,000

Trunks (Pre ROSAT) - 24,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 1,200,000,000
Trunks (Post ROSAT) - 34,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 1,700,000,000

Goten (Pre ROSAT) - 20,000,000
SSJ Goten - 1,000,000,000
Goten (Post ROSAT) - 30,000,000
SSJ Goten - 1,500,000,000

Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) - 400,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 20,000,000,000
Gotenks (Post ROSAT) - 600,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 30,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks - 240,000,000,000

Piccolo (Weighted) - 1,400,000,000
Piccolo - 1,800,000,000

Supreme Kai - 2,500,000,000

Kibito - 50,000,000

Kibito Kai - 25,500,000,000

Pui Pui - 18,000

Yakon - 100,000,000

Dabura - 3,500,000,000

Fat Buu (Initial) - 9,000,000,000
Fat Buu - 20,000,000,000
Evil Buu - 11,000,000,000
Good Buu - 9,000,000,000

Super Buu - 200,000,000,000
Super Buutenks - 441,800,000,000
Super Buuccolo - 205,000,000,000
Super Buuhan - 485,000,000,000

Buff Buu - 225,000,000,000

Kid Buu - 30,000,000,000

Base Vegito - 500,000,000,000
SSJ Vegito - 25,000,000,000,000
Base Gohan lifted the Z Sword better Goku, he should be the stronger of the duo.

I actually disagree with the whole list, though it's quite pointless to mention it as it's stuff we disagree since day one (Base Saiyans, Gotenkc etc)
Battle Powers List (Manga)

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