Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:27 pm

Yeah, that's part of the whole "the story makes just as much or little sense" part. Whichever way you go, you're going to have unanswered questions.

In this case, my best bet is that since Gohan never trained with Super Saiyan 2, he can't just freely pop into the form whenever he wants (like Goku and Vegeta can), and instead needs to spend time focusing and gathering power to do it. Kibito allowed him that time at the tournament (to the point that the audience was getting impatient for action), but that probably wasn't the case when he was under immediate pressure against Dabra and Boo's egg later.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ahill1 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Vertical wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Especially since nowadays we kind of have an upper limit on Goku's power for the Cell and Boo arcs.
Curious as to what you are referring to here.
Well, this is something we should be already well aware of, is it not? The Freeza > base Saiyajins believers have drasitically increased among the years due to Beerus' statement, in which is stated it doesn't appear Goku could have possibly defeated Freeza when the former was in base alone. If we take the SSJ's amplification to be the official 50x, then there's a cap for how strong the Boo saga Saiyajins can get, as (taking Beerus' statement at face value) their SSJ state can't be 50x above Freeza and therefore not hit the 6 billions mark just yet. Whilst I know you don't work with set multiplier for the SSJ transformation, you believe it to be less than a 50x boost, right? In which case the rabit hole on the Boo saga Saiyajins' power would be even shallower.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:59 pm

Kaboom wrote:Yeah, that's part of the whole "the story makes just as much or little sense" part. Whichever way you go, you're going to have unanswered questions.

In this case, my best bet is that since Gohan never trained with Super Saiyan 2, he can't just freely pop into the form whenever he wants (like Goku and Vegeta can), and instead needs to spend time focusing and gathering power to do it. Kibito allowed him that time at the tournament (to the point that the audience was getting impatient for action), but that probably wasn't the case when he was under immediate pressure against Dabra and Boo's egg later.
Didn't Dabra give him time though? He asked all the three of them to come at him at full power. He also had a quite good amount of time to power up against Boo.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:47 pm

There's two in-universe explanations for Gohan not going SSJ2:

First one is that Gohan still had his rage bubbling inside from what Spopovich did to Videl when he faced Kibito. By the time he fought Drabra that was gone and because of rustiness he couldn't it at will.

Second is that Kibito wasn't able to fully heal him. Which I'm pretty certain is directly said, can't say for sure since I don't have the manga in front of me. This one seems pretty clear cut since nobody gave him a senzu or something in-between.
The only dent in this is how nobody bothered mention it after watching Gohan go SSJ2 at the tournament, probably a symptom of the writing(or rewriting) in this section of the arc; but that's out-of-universe.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Analytic » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:05 pm

LightBing wrote:Second is that Kibito wasn't able to fully heal him. Which I'm pretty certain is directly said, can't say for sure since I don't have the manga in front of me. This one seems pretty clear cut since nobody gave him a senzu or something in-between.
It seems more like it took Kibito a long time to restore Gohan to full based. It looks like he kept going after his statement of Gohan not being back at full yet.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:10 pm

Analytic wrote:It seems more like it took Kibito a long time to restore Gohan to full based. It looks like he kept going after his statement of Gohan not being back at full yet.
Thinking it from that angle I agree with you, it's probably that.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:43 pm

LightBing wrote:There's two in-universe explanations for Gohan not going SSJ2:

First one is that Gohan still had his rage bubbling inside from what Spopovich did to Videl when he faced Kibito. By the time he fought Drabra that was gone and because of rustiness he couldn't it at will.

Second is that Kibito wasn't able to fully heal him. Which I'm pretty certain is directly said, can't say for sure since I don't have the manga in front of me. This one seems pretty clear cut since nobody gave him a senzu or something in-between.
The only dent in this is how nobody bothered mention it after watching Gohan go SSJ2 at the tournament, probably a symptom of the writing(or rewriting) in this section of the arc; but that's out-of-universe.
I think it's more a matter of the transformation at the Budokai being an outlier and eventually got retconed. Everybody does act like they've never seen Gohan's power until the Dabra fight.
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”


Shin outright considers the possibility of Gohan not being at full power when he paralyzed him, and later Goku asks if Gohan has been training, to which Vegeta responds he hasn't, although Vegeta was already aware of Gohan's rustiness.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:32 pm

Would we agree that when Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell that he was referring to Super Perfect Cell?

This is another confusing one because Goku said that and that he could handle him and Vegeta agreed but that was prior to Vegeta knowing that he could become a Super Saiyan 2.

Which would imply Dabura is weaker than them as a Super Saiyan which adds up to Gohan struggling but not too badly against Dabura as a supposed Super Saiyan in the manga.

But then he wouldn't actually be as strong as Cell at all.

Plus now you have the Dragon Ball Super manga where even Trunks as a Super Saiyan who would arguably be more powerful than Goku and Vegeta was still having trouble with Dabura and needed Super Saiyan 2 and even then didn't beat him in one attack.

So that part would fit him with being as strong as Cell.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:24 pm

I think it's pretty much impossible for Goku to have specifically been thinking of Super Perfect Cell when he first made that estimate of Dabra. Because he and Vegeta never stopped treating Dabra like a pushover and minor obstacle. If he was really "stronger than [Goku] thought," meaning even stronger than Super Perfect Cell... that wouldn't be the case. He would be a very potent threat to either of them, even in Super Saiyan 2, and something to seriously worry about.

But no... there he was, stalemating a weakened and rusty SS1 Gohan while Goku and Vegeta get merely embarrassed and frustrated about it, instead of concerned. It just doesn't fit together that way.

Goku wasn't specific at all with that initial comparison, and we shouldn't put words in his mouth. "About as strong as Cell" is only a rough estimate given that they couldn't sense his ki and were just judging him by movement, and it can cover a very wide range of power. Even assuming it's Perfect Cell, that's anywhere from his starting power against Super Vegeta all the way through his powered-up forms against Gohan.

To put it in numbers, because that's what this thread is for...

Perfect Cell: Anywhere from 10 (vs Vegeta) through 100 (vs SS2 Gohan).
Dabra: Goku's initial estimate like, maybe 40, amended to 60 after seeing him fight. A bigger deal but still small pickings for the SS2s.

I think something like that is the most likely case.

Also, I don't think the Super manga changes anything either. We don't know the specifics of how much stronger either Trunks or Dabra became, and overall it still delivers the same basic message as Toriyama's original manga. That a Super Saiyan 1 struggles uphill against Dabra, but a Super Saiyan 2 beats him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:41 pm

Bullza wrote:Would we agree that when Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell that he was referring to Super Perfect Cell?

This is another confusing one because Goku said that and that he could handle him and Vegeta agreed but that was prior to Vegeta knowing that he could become a Super Saiyan 2.

Which would imply Dabura is weaker than them as a Super Saiyan which adds up to Gohan struggling but not too badly against Dabura as a supposed Super Saiyan in the manga.

But then he wouldn't actually be as strong as Cell at all.

Plus now you have the Dragon Ball Super manga where even Trunks as a Super Saiyan who would arguably be more powerful than Goku and Vegeta was still having trouble with Dabura and needed Super Saiyan 2 and even then didn't beat him in one attack.

So that part would fit him with being as strong as Cell.
Definitely not Super Perfect Cell. More like FP Perfect Cell at best IMO. Vegeta is at best around SPC and thinks he can kill him easily. Dabra's blast would also have creamed Gohan if he were SPC level, just look at how much damage it did to Kid Gohan - It broke his arm and took away half of his power. Teen Gohan emerges unharmed from that blast.

Some people actually think Goku was surprised Vegeta was his equal there, but it sounds like reaching. Goku already knew he'd need SSJ2 to end the match quickly.

My bet on Future Dabra is that as he arrives on earth several years after he did on the present, he's just stronger than he was. Trunks oughta be about as strong, if not stronger than Boo Arc Goku and Vegeta thanks to his Z Sword training.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:03 pm

But couldn't Goku and Vegeta be so far above Super Perfect Cell that even if Dabura were that strong then he still wouldn't a threat?

He didn't blow Gohan away when he fought him but afterward just before Buu came out, he told Badidi that he wouldn't be hard to beat.

I'm not sure how old Dabura is supposed to be but if he's thousands of years old or more then I wouldn't have thought there'd be any significant difference between his main and future timeline. Future Trunks was at least stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games and was easily able to swing around the Z Sword which even Goku had a bit of trouble with.

So all things considered I wondered if Dabura was stronger any Super Saiyan but weaker than any Super Saiyan 2 just as Super Perfect Cell was.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:05 pm

Bullza wrote:But couldn't Goku and Vegeta be so far above Super Perfect Cell that even if Dabura were that strong then he still wouldn't a threat?

He didn't blow Gohan away when he fought him but afterward just before Buu came out, he told Badidi that he wouldn't be hard to beat.

I'm not sure how old Dabura is supposed to be but if he's thousands of years old or more then I wouldn't have thought there'd be any significant difference between his main and future timeline. Future Trunks was at least stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games and was easily able to swing around the Z Sword which even Goku had a bit of trouble with.

So all things considered I wondered if Dabura was stronger any Super Saiyan but weaker than any Super Saiyan 2 just as Super Perfect Cell was.
I doubt Goku and Vegeta were that far ahead kid Gohan, given the phrasing of certain lines.
Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

If Goku and Vegeta were that far ahead of Super Perfect Cell and kid Gohan, there would be no vagueness in Piccolo's statement. Likewise, Goku later considered Gohan a potential partner for Fusion, which requires the participants to be similar in power. So even the rusty and out-of-shape Gohan can't be too far behind Goku and Vegeta.

I suppose it could be possible that Dabra was holding back when he first fought Gohan, but it could be equally possible that he's being an arrogant braggart when tells Bobbidi that Gohan wasn't a threat to him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:11 pm

There's also the Fusion Dance, which Goku says needs people to be similar in power. He considered both Vegeta and Gohan as good candidates to fuse with him, which wouldn't be possible if he and Vegeta had some huge power lead on Gohan. It all points to power differences that are noticeable but relatively minor.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:25 pm

But isn't Gohan at that point supposed to be even weaker than he was at the Cell Games whereas Vegeta was even stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games?

And then there's Goku who was supposed to have a significant enough advantage over Vegeta that he had to let himself get controlled and boosted up just to reach him?

There should be a pretty noticeable difference between Goku and Gohan.

But if that was Piccolo's comment then I can't really argue with what was said.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:36 am

Goku and Vegeta both treat Dabura like a joke and then both are shocked when the both go ssj2.

Ssj2 adults> ssj adults> Dabura.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:28 pm

Bullza wrote:But couldn't Goku and Vegeta be so far above Super Perfect Cell that even if Dabura were that strong then he still wouldn't a threat?

He didn't blow Gohan away when he fought him but afterward just before Buu came out, he told Badidi that he wouldn't be hard to beat.

I'm not sure how old Dabura is supposed to be but if he's thousands of years old or more then I wouldn't have thought there'd be any significant difference between his main and future timeline. Future Trunks was at least stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games and was easily able to swing around the Z Sword which even Goku had a bit of trouble with.

So all things considered I wondered if Dabura was stronger any Super Saiyan but weaker than any Super Saiyan 2 just as Super Perfect Cell was.
As DanielSSJ said, it's very unlikely Goku and Vegeta were far above Kid Gohan since Piccolo had trouble to tell Vegeta was stronger than Gohan.

Winning a fight isn't just a matter of power. Dabra was giving Gohan a tough time with his magic tricks and would've won had the fight not ended. Gohan was quite winded right before the fight ended as well.

Future Dabra is just stronger because the plot dictates so. He is a considerably more fearful opponent on the future than he was on the present.

I find doubtful Dabra is even stronger than the adult Super Saiyans. Not only Goku and Vegeta agree he's trash before Vegeta is revealed to have SSJ2, but Dabra also considers Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta a better fighter than himself to gather energy to revive Boo:
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DanielSSJ wrote:I suppose it could be possible that Dabra was holding back when he first fought Gohan, but it could be equally possible that he's being an arrogant braggart when tells Bobbidi that Gohan wasn't a threat to him.
Why would he hold back? Gathering energy for Boo is pretty much the mission of his life, he has no reason to screw around. Even if he were, he'd just get serious and beat Gohan up, instead he's getting bested on hand to hand combat and is forced to use magic.
Kaboom wrote:There's also the Fusion Dance, which Goku says needs people to be similar in power. He considered both Vegeta and Gohan as good candidates to fuse with him, which wouldn't be possible if he and Vegeta had some huge power lead on Gohan. It all points to power differences that are noticeable but relatively minor.
But Goku also wanted to fuse with Gohan after the Elder Kaioshin ritual. Close is a very relative term.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:55 pm

So forgetting Super Perfect Cell then how about just Perfect Cell? The one Goku was actually alive to see for himself.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:23 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Why would he hold back? Gathering energy for Boo is pretty much the mission of his life, he has no reason to screw around. Even if he were, he'd just get serious and beat Gohan up, instead he's getting bested on hand to hand combat and is forced to use magic.
I was mostly playing devil's advocate in regards to Dabra holding back. While it could be the case, it wouldn't make sense for the reasons you mentioned.
But Goku also wanted to fuse with Gohan after the Elder Kaioshin ritual. Close is a very relative term.
I tend to think that Goku (Toriyama) was just having a bit of a brain fart when he proposed using the Fusion Dance with Ultimate Gohan. Had old Kaioshin not brought up the Potara, either Goku or someone else probably would've went "Oh right, Fusion only works if you and your partner are around the same level. Guess that won't work"
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:05 am

I double checked a few things.

So if Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta is perhaps stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Cell Games and that was Vegeta after his latent potential was unleashed then....wouldn't Vegeta prior to this have actually have been weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games?

Unless I'm missing something, there wasn't anything to say that Vegeta prior to being controlled actually was stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games was there? Did he only surpass him after Babidi controlled him then?

You'd have to think he would have been stronger than Goku at the Cell Games because he was confident enough to face him knowing he'd improve a lot.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:10 pm

Bullza wrote:I double checked a few things.

So if Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta is perhaps stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Cell Games and that was Vegeta after his latent potential was unleashed then....wouldn't Vegeta prior to this have actually have been weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games?

Unless I'm missing something, there wasn't anything to say that Vegeta prior to being controlled actually was stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games was there? Did he only surpass him after Babidi controlled him then?

You'd have to think he would have been stronger than Goku at the Cell Games because he was confident enough to face him knowing he'd improve a lot.
That could be the case. Vegeta only said that he and Goku were superior to the rusty teenage Gohan, though he did seem confident about taking Gohan on before he found out how weak he had gotten. There's enough vagueness that Vegeta could be slightly stronger, slightly weaker, or dead even with the Gohan from seven years ago.
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