Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:06 pm

PFM18 wrote:Goku was very clearly holding back. It was a matter of intimidating Kururin because there would be intimidating opponents in the ToP.

That scene of Goku vs Gohan is not something that should really be considered. First of all, it was a gag scene and wasn't meant to be taken seriously, and second it is a casual sparring session with his son there's no reason why he would be going all out. Even if you insist upon considering this scene despite it not being meant to be taken seriously, Goku literally admitted to holding back. Gohan accused Goku of holding back, and Goku admitted to it. They fight evenly in Base form as Goku admits to holding back, then each go SSJ and they continue to fight evenly. Obviously Goku was holding back in both iterations of the fight if he fought in Base, fought evenly, admitted to holding back, and then continued to fight evenly.
Not really. Goku was either gritting his teeth or screaming from the top of his lungs during the beam struggle. He clearly was putting effort into it even though Gohan and #18 acknowledged Kuririnhad no chance against Goku.

Light hearted =/= Gag. By this logic we could dismiss lots of fights from Part I and every feat Gotenks has just because they were intended to be funny.

And holding back because he didn't transform. Right after admiting to be holding back, he shouted "Let's do this!" and transformed, implying he wouldn't be holding back anymore.
This was a discussion about the DBS anime power scaling so this is kind of irrelevant.
The discussion is about how Toei handles scaling overall. On my first coment i mentioned how Toei handles power scaling, not Super specifically.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:58 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Not really. Goku was either gritting his teeth or screaming from the top of his lungs during the beam struggle. He clearly was putting effort into it even though Gohan and #18 acknowledged Kuririnhad no chance against Goku.
Well, yes Gohan and 18 established that Kururin had no chance. So obviously, Goku was holding back. There was literally an entire plot point that Kururin gets easily intimidated, whether it be him being intimidated by the soldiers in RoF and Freeza, or the mirages of previous villains in that cave, the narrative was that Kururin had to learn to give it his all even if he was intimidated or not be intimidated at all. This was furthering that plot point. Obviously Goku was heavily suppressed. He can suppress himself to essentially any level of power at this point in the story. Just because he is gritting his teeth doesn't mean he wasn't suppressed. Even so, he could be heavily suppressed and while using that level of power, he needs to try in order to match Kururin. It is just how power fluctuates in the series depending on how much they want to use.
And holding back because he didn't transform. Right after admiting to be holding back, he shouted "Let's do this!" and transformed, implying he wouldn't be holding back anymore.
the way you describe it doesn't fit with the actual events. The way you portray it is that Goku was holding back because he wasn't transformed, and then he transformed and was no longer holding back. However, if this were actually the case, and he was holding back as it pertained to transformations and not in terms of the portion of his power that he was using, he would have gone SSB. He would have been no longer suppressed in terms of transformations at that point. However, he transformed into a normal SSJ which of course is not even close to his strongest transformation. So clearly, the holding back was referencing the level of power he was using. Also, Gohan commenting that he was holding back in terms of transformations would make no sense because making a comment that he was holding back by being in Base would make no sense because it would simply be stating what is obvious and everybody in the area already knows. He was commenting on Goku not actually using his full-power or just using all of his ki.

So neither of these scenes are actually inconsistent power scaling and you haven't brought up any legitimate examples of the power scaling being inconsistent in the DBS anime. I don't' care to discuss what Toei animated 20 years ago before when they were adding filler.

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Post by thesilentofficial » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:59 am

Angelus wrote:How many times more powerful was SSJ Vegeta during the 25th WMAT compared to his ASSJ Post-1st day ROSAT self? Pre-Majin of course.
I have him at exactly 3 times stronger from Post 1st day ROSAT SSJ grade 2(ASSJ) ---> SSJ Vegeta during 25th WMAT. I assume Vegeta mastered SSJ by then so I gave him an extra increase for the multiplier. But it comes out to exactly 3 times stronger on my list.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:41 pm

I plan to ask it in the Dragon Ball Super strength thread at a later point but at the moment the focus is on the manga so I'll ask here first.

When Goku goes to Beerus' Planet and sees Vegeta, he says he's powered up a lot and may even be stronger than himself now.

We know now that Goku at that point was not as strong as a Super Saiyan God so obviously he wouldn't be referring to Vegeta surpassing that. So what does he mean by having surpassed him now?

Did Beerus not already say that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was already stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

Also what it does mean when he says Vegeta's Ki has a different quality to it?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:39 pm

Is Future Gohan stronger than Namek Goku and Future Vegeta? Also is present Vegeta stronger than his future counterpart?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:11 pm

Since Gogeta was going to appear in the manga but got replaced so Fusion Reborn could use him, how strong would he have been? Some people assume Toriyama would've just haxed Goku & Vegeta's fusion dance so he'd become as powerful as Vegetto but I'm not so sure.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ahill1 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:42 pm

Namek's battle

Freeza (100%) -- 230,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 250,000,000

Future Trunks' arrival

Son Gohan -- 900,000
Piccolo -- 4,500,000
Vegeta -- 5,000,000

King Cold -- 180,000,000
Mecha Freeza -- 270,000,000

Future Trunks -- 9,000,000
--- SSJ -- 450,000,000
Son Goku -- 10,500,000
-- SSJ --- 525,000,000

Android's arrival

Android #19 (pre) -- 600,000,000
-- Post --- 800,000,000
Android #20 (pre) -- 750,000,000
-- Post --- 900,000,000

Piccolo -- 1,080,000,000

Future Trunks -- 24,300,000
-- SSJ --- 1,215,000,000

Son Goku -- 25,920,000
-- SSJ (sick) --- 800,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,296,000,000

Vegeta -- 27,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,350,000,000


Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000
Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000


Cell shows up!!!!

Imperfect Cell -- 1,500,000,000

Kamiccolo (weighted) -- 1,800,000,000
-- Non weights --- 2,100,000,000

Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000

Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000

Semi Cell (initially) -- 50,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 60,000,000,000

Vegeta (post Rosat) -- 120,000,000
-- SSJ --- 60,000,000,000
-- SSJG2 --- 80,000,000,000

Trunks SSJG2 -- 75,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (warming up) -- 73,000,000,000
-- Fooling with Vegeta --- 300,000,000,000

Trunks SSJG3 -- 375,000,000,000

Goku FPSSJ (50%) -- 625,000,000,000


Cell Games

Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000

Piccolo -- 700,000,000,000

Future Trunks -- 16,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 800,000,000,000

Vegeta -- 16,500,000,000
-- SSJ --- 825,000,000,000

Cell Junior -- 850,000,000,000

Son Goku -- 25,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,250,000,000,000

Cell (vs Goku) -- 1,420,000,000,000

Son Gohan FPSSJ -- 1,875,000,000,000

Cell (full power) -- 5,625,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell -- 8,750,000,000,000

Son Gohan SSJ2 -- 9,375,000,000,000


Boo Saga

Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000

Yakon -- 40,000,000,000

Piccolo -- 800,000,000,000

East Kaioshin -- 1,200,000,000,000

Son Goten SSJ -- 1,250,000,000,000

Chibi Trunks SSJ -- 1,300,000,000,000

Teen Gohan -- 28,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 7,000,000,000,000

Vegeta (pre Majin) -- 33,750,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,687,500,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 8,437,500,000,000

Son Goku -- 40,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 2,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000


Fat Boo (full power) -- 80,000,000,000,000

Son Goku SSJ3 -- 100,000,000,000,000


Gotenks base (pre Rosat) -- 2,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 120,000,000,000,000


---- // -----

Gotenks (post Rosat) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 25,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 125,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ3 --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000

Super Boo (initially) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan -- 1,875,000,000,000,000,000

Bootenks -- 2,500,000,000,000,000,000

Boohan -- 3,125,000,000,000,000,000

Vegetto -- 200,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 10,000,000,000,000,000,000

Buff Boo -- 1,562,500,000,000,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:01 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Since Gogeta was going to appear in the manga but got replaced so Fusion Reborn could use him, how strong would he have been? Some people assume Toriyama would've just haxed Goku & Vegeta's fusion dance so he'd become as powerful as Vegetto but I'm not so sure.
If we lived in an alternate universe where Fusion Reborn didn't exist and Goku and Vegeta used the fusion dance against Boo, odds are manga!Gogeta would've been more or less as powerful as Vegetto was in canon. We can wax on about gaps and and gains and multipliers all we want, but at the end of the day, every character is as strong as they need to be to service the story, and Toriyama wanted to show off a Goku/Vegeta fusion kicking the crap out of Boo. It wouldn't matter if they fused Metamorian style, Potara style, or Namekian style. Goku + Vegeta would still be >>>>>>>> Boo.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:25 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Since Gogeta was going to appear in the manga but got replaced so Fusion Reborn could use him, how strong would he have been? Some people assume Toriyama would've just haxed Goku & Vegeta's fusion dance so he'd become as powerful as Vegetto but I'm not so sure.
He probably wouldn't have had Buu absorb Gohan.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:23 pm

Bullza wrote:what it does mean when he says Vegeta's Ki has a different quality to it?
Very likely, Goku says Vegeta is much stronger than before.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:33 pm

Noah wrote:Is Future Gohan stronger than Namek Goku and Future Vegeta? Also is present Vegeta stronger than his future counterpart?
Yeah, Gohan is about as strong as Trunks, who can beat Cyborg Freeza to the ground pretty quick, and Freeza is at least as strong as this Goku. Future Vegeta is irrelevant, he wasn't even a Super Saiyan.

Future Vegeta should be barely any different from Vegeta by the time Freeza was killed. He'd have no motivation to make huge gains after Goku dies. He's at best as strong as Base Yardrat Goku.
ekrolo2 wrote:Since Gogeta was going to appear in the manga but got replaced so Fusion Reborn could use him, how strong would he have been? Some people assume Toriyama would've just haxed Goku & Vegeta's fusion dance so he'd become as powerful as Vegetto but I'm not so sure.
He definitely would've been haxed. With Movie 12's release and Toriyama's change of plans, it was made clear that Gogeta would've been no match for Gohan-Boo.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:11 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Future Vegeta is irrelevant, he wasn't even a Super Saiyan. He should be barely any different from Vegeta by the time Freeza was killed. He'd have no motivation to make huge gains after Goku dies. He's at best as strong as Base Yardrat Goku.
What? He was killed by #17 while as a Super Saiyan and how he should be no different? You said yourself: "He had no motivations to make huge gains after Goku's death" unlike present Vegeta who wanted to not only surpass Goku but finish the threat of the androids by himself.

Present SSJ Vegeta should be stronger than Future SSJ Vegeta.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:15 pm

I've spent the past few days racking my head about the whole "Vegetto is stronger than SS4 Goku business" and I don't see how it can make sense. Not with using Z Vegetto, anyway.

The first thing to establish is GT being a sequel to the Z anime, not the manga, this is important because there is different scaling present there. In the Boo arc of the manga, Goku very clearly never surpasses either SS3 Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan or any version of Super Boo. This isn't true in the Z anime. Goku and Vegeta fight duplicates of Ultimate Gohan, SS3 Gotenks and Piccolo, holding their own against them despite the fact they are confirmed to be just as strong as the originals as confirmed here:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111031609 ... e_warriors

How this work I can only speculate but the most popular explanation is a "post-fusion boost" which elevates Goku and Vegeta above SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in just Super Saiyan. The different scaling is further proved by the various narrator and character statements exclusive to the anime citing Kid Boo as the most powerful version of Boo so far who Goku is equal to with SS3. This means that SS3 Goku is stronger than Boohan and by extension Base Vegetto.

Later on, in GT, it is confirmed Goku in his Base form even as a child is on par with his SS3 self, meaning GT Base Goku > Z Base Vegetto. However, things get muddied here thanks to the shrunken multipliers for Goku's SS forms. It is implied SS1 only doubles Goku's power, meaning Goku can only make himself 16 times stronger with SS1-3. Vegetto has no shrunken multiplier so, with SS1, he would be able to beat SS3 GT Goku.

Then we get to Baby Vegeta who, in his SS1 form, is on par with SS3 Goku. Once he gets his accompanying versions of SS2 (Strongest Form 1) and SS3 (Strongest Form 2), Baby is around 8 times stronger than SS3 Goku and over 3200 times stronger than Base GT Goku. There is no implication Vegeta lost his original multipliers, unlike Goku, so he's got quite a gap to overcome. Which he does with Golden Oozaru, a 4000 times increase to Base power. If you've been following up till now, this already makes Golden Oozaru Goku far superior to even a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto thanks to the higher multiplier and GT Base Goku being stronger than Base Vegetto.

Once we get to SS4, which is implied to be ten times stronger than Golden Oozaru based on his feats against Golden Oozaru Baby, there is simply no way Z Vegetto is comparable to SS4 Goku, he is totally outclassed.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:19 pm

Noah wrote: What? He was killed by #17 while as a Super Saiyan and how he should be no different? You said yourself: "He had no motivations to make huge gains after Goku's death" unlike present Vegeta who wanted to not only surpass Goku but finish the threat of the androids by himself.

Present SSJ Vegeta should be stronger than Future SSJ Vegeta.
That's anime only though. In the special chapter that Toyotaro drew for Future Trunks' story, Vegeta is portrayed as a base Saiyan. Plus, logically Vegeta should never be able to unlock SSJ without Trunks' intervenction: At time it was believed that there could only be one Super Saiyan. It wasn't until Trunks came in that Vegeta noticed he could also be a Super Saiyan and trained to be one.

Oh, you meant Android Arc Vegeta. I thought you were talking about Vegeta 3 years before that. Yeah, Present Vegeta would blow Future out of the water, even moreso as he's a SSJ and Future Vegeta isn't.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:33 am

What does the Super Exciting Guide say about Gotenks Pre-ROSAT? I know they specify Vegeta but does it say he's stronger than Vegeta and others or just Vegeta?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:59 am

ekrolo2 wrote:What does the Super Exciting Guide say about Gotenks Pre-ROSAT? I know they specify Vegeta but does it say he's stronger than Vegeta and others or just Vegeta?
It’s Daizenshuu 7, not Super Exciting Guides. It says “Vegeta and the others”.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:What does the Super Exciting Guide say about Gotenks Pre-ROSAT? I know they specify Vegeta but does it say he's stronger than Vegeta and others or just Vegeta?
It’s Daizenshuu 7, not Super Exciting Guides. It says “Vegeta and the others”.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:24 pm

Where's the comment on how Gohan got weaker after the Cell Games but most of that loss just came off of the Super Saiyan 2 Form?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:37 pm

Bullza wrote:Where's the comment on how Gohan got weaker after the Cell Games but most of that loss just came off of the Super Saiyan 2 Form?
Do you mean this?

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:28 pm

No it was from some guidebook where it says most of Gohan's power loss comes from the top down aka Super Saiyan 2.

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