Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:10 am

Kaboom wrote:
SSJ Vegetto wrote:Can someone share Dragonball Z Movie Villans Power Levels? I want see your opinion.
I have an entire 'Movies and Specials' list, and keep a link to it right in my signature. That's the one I try most to make fun to read, but most of the numbers are actually halfway-serious placements.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Trunks being stronger than Goku, at least from when he was last seen in action on Namek? I kind of assumed that was a given.
It's more the "maybe" that draws my attention.
Oh, I see. Well, that sort of roundaboutism is pretty common, and sometimes just a more subtle way of saying something is actually the case.
I think it's more likely that Trunks just isn't that much stronger than Namek Goku, if he is at all, hence why Kaio only says "maybe." That would fit Gohan's "he has the same ki as dad" statement pretty well too (even if the exact wording doesn't necessarily say "amount of ki", instead just saying "ki", you'd think someone would have noticed the difference if it was big). If that is the case, then combined with 17's "I only used half my power" statement that actually means we have a fairly solid numerical range for every character up to powered-up Imperfect Cell (where we lose that level of precision, not to be somewhat regained until Goku throws out his "50%" statement).
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SSJ Vegetto » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:53 pm

Did Cell transformations has multiplier, ass power up or only additional to his own PL?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:50 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: I think it's more likely that Trunks just isn't that much stronger than Namek Goku, if he is at all, hence why Kaio only says "maybe." That would fit Gohan's "he has the same ki as dad" statement pretty well too (even if the exact wording doesn't necessarily say "amount of ki", instead just saying "ki", you'd think someone would have noticed the difference if it was big). If that is the case, then combined with 17's "I only used half my power" statement that actually means we have a fairly solid numerical range for every character up to powered-up Imperfect Cell (where we lose that level of precision, not to be somewhat regained until Goku throws out his "50%" statement).
I agree with this. To support your point of view on Gohan's comment, Gohan couldn't believe SSJ3 Gokus power was his father because it was so high, even though they had the same Ki signature:
RG, how you think Trunks vs a FP Freeza would've looked like? He tells Freeza to power up and that he'd make short work of Freeza.

Future #17's statement definitely gives us a good range. Initial post Namek SSJs are barely above ~40% Future 17, whereas post 3 years SSJs are on the same range as FP 17 and 18, with Piccolo and the Initial Androids being somewhere in the middle.
SSJ Vegetto wrote:Did Cell transformations has multiplier, ass power up or only additional to his own PL?
Just big power ups. There's no set formula for them.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:25 pm

Kaboom wrote:Oh, I see. Well, that sort of roundaboutism is pretty common, and sometimes just a more subtle way of saying something is actually the case.
Kaboom, do you think this could be also the case with Piccolo saying Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:43 pm

SSJ Vegetto wrote:Did Cell transformations has multiplier, ass power up or only additional to his own PL?
If anything, they're probably "pre-programmed" power boosts, at least for the Android twins themselves. When he liquefies and absorbs all his Earthling victims, then that'd be either a direct power addition, or just powering himself up indirectly by sort of gaining nutrition from them.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Kaboom, do you think this could be also the case with Piccolo saying Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan?
Maybe, but in that specific case I also think Vegeta may have become difficult to accurately sense, like the other guys under Bobbidi's spell. Or he might not be sensable at all at that point, and Piccolo is guessing based on what he may have sensed from Vegeta earlier.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:09 pm

Kaboom wrote:Maybe, but in that specific case I also think Vegeta may have become difficult to accurately sense, like the other guys under Bobbidi's spell. Or he might not be sensable at all at that point, and Piccolo is guessing based on what he may have sensed from Vegeta earlier.
I doubt Vegeta would be fully impossible to sense. Goku had no problem to gauge his power, and Trunks knew Goku and Vegeta were equals too.

I think it's more likely that either Piccolo forgot how strong Gohan is or is comparing Vegeta to a rage boosted Gohan when he atomized Cell. Or it's just for the sake of drama.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:42 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: I think it's more likely that Trunks just isn't that much stronger than Namek Goku, if he is at all, hence why Kaio only says "maybe." That would fit Gohan's "he has the same ki as dad" statement pretty well too (even if the exact wording doesn't necessarily say "amount of ki", instead just saying "ki", you'd think someone would have noticed the difference if it was big). If that is the case, then combined with 17's "I only used half my power" statement that actually means we have a fairly solid numerical range for every character up to powered-up Imperfect Cell (where we lose that level of precision, not to be somewhat regained until Goku throws out his "50%" statement).
I agree with this. To support your point of view on Gohan's comment, Gohan couldn't believe SSJ3 Gokus power was his father because it was so high, even though they had the same Ki signature:
That's also a good point, hadn't considered that.

Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P7.8, P8.1-2
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 3
Gohan: “”Th-this ki…Don’t tell me…it’s father?...No…It’s not…”

This pretty much confirms that, in Gohan's mind at least, a ki being similar in feel to Goku's but much larger means it can't possibly be the same ki as his.
RG, how you think Trunks vs a FP Freeza would've looked like? He tells Freeza to power up and that he'd make short work of Freeza.
Trunks vs full-power Freeza on Namek? Trunks is equal or a bit stronger than Goku was at that time considering statements by Gohan and Kaio, and Goku already beat Freeza pretty badly (aside from the tactical move with the Nova Strike, Freeza only got in 2-3 hits before being rendered combat ineffective). So this would go very poorly for Freeza.

Full-power Mecha Freeza vs Trunks might have actually proven a challenge for Trunks, albeit one where he'd still have a noticeable edge (say 140-150 million for Freeza vs 160 million for Trunks). But it's still a battle that would be almost impossible for Trunks to lose, since Freeza can only maintain his full power for a minute or two before gassing out rather pathetically (remember, everything from Freeza nuking the planet to Goku escaping Namek genuinely does last five minutes manga-wise). Especially if that sword helps against peak foes. I have a feeling he was baiting Freeza into doing a lengthy transformation sequence so he could kill him faster. Trunks has never been the type to seriously let his opponents power up, even when they're much weaker than him. Indeed, he doesn't really give Freeza a chance- just kills him in one hit when he's still at 50% or thereabouts.
Future #17's statement definitely gives us a good range. Initial post Namek SSJs are barely above ~40% Future 17, whereas post 3 years SSJs are on the same range as FP 17 and 18, with Piccolo and the Initial Androids being somewhere in the middle.
Gohan seemed pretty confident he'd be able to beat 17 and 18 at the same time. So presumably Gohan had considerably surpassed half-power-17, for him to be so sure he could defeat the two of them, down an arm. What's that going to put him at? Like 60%, 70% of Future 17's full power? Ish? And the implication is that 17 needed to uncork more of his power to kill Gohan. He's bragging, so if he really had been using closer to a third than a half, then surely he would have just said that instead.

By initial androids, do you mean 19 and 20? I don't think either are anything special power-wise, since even after becoming much more powerful, Vegeta still thinks 19 doesn't meet the hype Trunks gave them:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Not to mention, Trunks' (apparently Namek Goku level) power from 3 years ago is still treated like a big deal compared to the likes of Piccolo, and no one ever said he got stronger:

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…"

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…"
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:43 am

If Vegeta and Trunks realized how defective Grades 2 and 3 are and focused on mastering SS to Grade 4, how strong would they become? Equal to their power vs the Cell jrs, Cell Games Goku,....?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:30 am

ekrolo2 wrote:If Vegeta and Trunks realized how defective Grades 2 and 3 are and focused on mastering SS to Grade 4, how strong would they become? Equal to their power vs the Cell jrs, Cell Games Goku,....?
Probably as strong as his Boo Arc self. Grade IV is stated to be the pinnacle of SSJ power in Daizenshuu 2.
RandomGuy96 wrote: Trunks vs full-power Freeza on Namek? Trunks is equal or a bit stronger than Goku was at that time considering statements by Gohan and Kaio, and Goku already beat Freeza pretty badly (aside from the tactical move with the Nova Strike, Freeza only got in 2-3 hits before being rendered combat ineffective). So this would go very poorly for Freeza.

Full-power Mecha Freeza vs Trunks might have actually proven a challenge for Trunks, albeit one where he'd still have a noticeable edge (say 140-150 million for Freeza vs 160 million for Trunks). But it's still a battle that would be almost impossible for Trunks to lose, since Freeza can only maintain his full power for a minute or two before gassing out rather pathetically (remember, everything from Freeza nuking the planet to Goku escaping Namek genuinely does last five minutes manga-wise). Especially if that sword helps against peak foes. I have a feeling he was baiting Freeza into doing a lengthy transformation sequence so he could kill him faster. Trunks has never been the type to seriously let his opponents power up, even when they're much weaker than him. Indeed, he doesn't really give Freeza a chance- just kills him in one hit when he's still at 50% or thereabouts.
I gotta disagree with you here. A while ago i made a breakdown on Goku vs Freeza and Freeza actually landed 5 blows, in contrast to Goku landing 8. With the exception of that part when Goku snaps Freeza's hand that seemed more like a skill advantage, their fight was roughly even, even after Freeza's stamina started to fade.

Is Freeza really unable to maintain his FP after turning into a Cyborg? His confidence would imply he can now. The sword definitely played a huge part in the fight, but it wasn't only the sword that allowed him to kill Freeza, this is shown when Cold tries to kill Trunks with it. And he actually gave Freeza a chance - he told him to attack him with his best - Freeza just wasted it.

It's complicated. Some things point towards Trunks being not much different from Namek Goku, other things point towards Freeza being complete fodder to him despite being above Namek Goku. I'd say Trunks vs Mecha Freeza would look like Goku vs Cell or Vegeta vs Zarbon at best, or like Vegeta vs 19 at worst.
Gohan seemed pretty confident he'd be able to beat 17 and 18 at the same time. So presumably Gohan had considerably surpassed half-power-17, for him to be so sure he could defeat the two of them, down an arm. What's that going to put him at? Like 60%, 70% of Future 17's full power? Ish? And the implication is that 17 needed to uncork more of his power to kill Gohan. He's bragging, so if he really had been using closer to a third than a half, then surely he would have just said that instead.
60%, 70% is pushing it. He still thought Trunks was the only one who could defeat the androids:

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P5.6
Context: after knocking Trunks out
Gohan: “If you died, then there wouldn’t be any more warriors to save the Earth…You’re the last warrior with the potential to be capable of defeating those androids after a few years…”


I think the fight would've been a 50/50 shot. Gohan is a good deal stronger, but lacks on the area of stamina and numbers, making it a even fight. If #17 is a 10, i'd say Gohan is a 12.5 or so. Only way i can see Gohan being 60% of 17 would be if he were pretty close to 50%, at 45 or 48%.
By initial androids, do you mean 19 and 20? I don't think either are anything special power-wise, since even after becoming much more powerful, Vegeta still thinks 19 doesn't meet the hype Trunks gave them:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”
The androids were hyped to be complete beasts who would give the Z Fighters a fight for their lives. Trunks said he had little hope after seeing Goku's power:
Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P9.4
Trunks: “Knowing your strength, Goku, I have a little hope.”

Implying that he still wasn't sure if Goku could win after training for 3 years.

And on their way to the battlefield, Goku and Piccolo were pretty nervous, dicussing about their chances of winning. Vegeta and the others were expecting the androids to givem them the fight of their lives, so clearly an android being unable to do anything beyond drawing some blood from Vegeta's lip would be below the expected, even if he can stomp Trunks.
Not to mention, Trunks' (apparently Namek Goku level) power from 3 years ago is still treated like a big deal compared to the likes of Piccolo, and no one ever said he got stronger:

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…"

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…"
But Trunks did make considerable improvement in the timeskip: He went from getting fodderized by the androids and struggling to surive a 1 on 1 fight to being able to hold his own against both:
Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”


Btw, the whole hype about Trunks is because he can one shot Freeza... That strongly implies he's >> Cyborg Freeza, and by consequence, Namek Goku.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:56 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I gotta disagree with you here. A while ago i made a breakdown on Goku vs Freeza and Freeza actually landed 5 blows, in contrast to Goku landing 8. With the exception of that part when Goku snaps Freeza's hand that seemed more like a skill advantage, their fight was roughly even, even after Freeza's stamina started to fade.
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. Even if you're counting the kiai and the chop, which didn't visibly affect Goku at all, it was still totally one-sided in Goku's favor. Goku landed far more hits and Freeza clearly took a lot more damage with each blow than Goku did.

This is especially damning for Freeza because he actually made a surprisingly good move by whacking Goku with his Nova Strike near the beginning of the battle. You'd figure that, since Freeza explicitly described that attack as a "finishing move" against a peer opponent, Goku would be weakened quite a bit after getting hit by it (a lot more than Freeza would be just by launching it), but Goku can still beat Freeza down handily both before and after (though, notably, Freeza only lands those 2-3 blows after the Nova Strike). This is emphasized again when Freeza punches Goku in the gut at the beginning of the battle, only for Goku to scoff, seemingly having let Freeza hit him, and say that he's weak. When Goku punches Freeza in the gut in a very similar manner later in the battle, the lizard vomits blood. Which, for a normal person, indicates a critical injury.
Is Freeza really unable to maintain his FP after turning into a Cyborg? His confidence would imply he can now.
He never mentioned that he solved that particular issue, just that he got stronger, and Toriyama's ROF script very heavily implies he never even saw it as a big issue given that his downfall comes from the exact same defect in a different form.
And he actually gave Freeza a chance - he told him to attack him with his best - Freeza just wasted it.
Like I said, I think Trunks was just baiting him into a transformation so he could kill him immediately. It wouldn't be in Trunks' character to do otherwise. He always takes the most straightforward solution.
I think the fight would've been a 50/50 shot. Gohan is a good deal stronger, but lacks on the area of stamina and numbers, making it a even fight. If #17 is a 10, i'd say Gohan is a 12.5 or so.

Something like that.
Only way i can see Gohan being 60% of 17 would be if he were pretty close to 50%, at 45 or 48%.
I think at the very least 17 should be closer to half his power than a third of it, for his boast to fit him.
The androids were hyped to be complete beasts who would give the Z Fighters a fight for their lives. Trunks said he had little hope after seeing Goku's power:
Implying that he still wasn't sure if Goku could win after training for 3 years.

And on their way to the battlefield, Goku and Piccolo were pretty nervous, dicussing about their chances of winning. Vegeta and the others were expecting the androids to givem them the fight of their lives, so clearly an android being unable to do anything beyond drawing some blood from Vegeta's lip would be below the expected, even if he can stomp Trunks.
Trunks didn't really give them any solid metric for comparison other than that they were stronger than him though.
But Trunks did make considerable improvement in the timeskip: He went from getting fodderized by the androids and struggling to surive a 1 on 1 fight to being able to hold his own against both:
I doubt that very much. When he sees 17 again in the future, the latter is totally confident and cocky, casually mentioning that Trunks is a fun game. 18 then asks if she can just kill him now, and when 17 says sure, she steps in alone with a smile on her face and fires a single ki blast at him, apparently expecting to kill him with it. They're far above him. Either they were toying with him the whole time or Trunks has a different conception of "fight fairly well" than you do.
Btw, the whole hype about Trunks is because he can one shot Freeza...
The level of power Freeza was at, sure (it's not like Tenshinhan and Kami saw him at any other level). Plus King Cold, they emphasize that too. I think "base" cyborg Freeza and Cold together representing a threat equivalent to 100% power Namek Freeza is narratively appropriate from a Worfing perspective. Technically he didn't one-shot them either, he just killed them really fast (more due to quirks of their biology than anything, but still).
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:24 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: But Trunks did make considerable improvement in the timeskip: He went from getting fodderized by the androids and struggling to surive a 1 on 1 fight to being able to hold his own against both:
I doubt that very much. When he sees 17 again in the future, the latter is totally confident and cocky, casually mentioning that Trunks is a fun game. 18 then asks if she can just kill him now, and when 17 says sure, she steps in alone with a smile on her face and fires a single ki blast at him, apparently expecting to kill him with it. They're far above him. Either they were toying with him the whole time or Trunks has a different conception of "fight fairly well" than you do.
Agreed, Trunks was rendered unconcious in 2 blows by Present #17 & #18, while he likely lasted longer against the ones from his timeline, just like we see in the special. He then thought this amounted to fighting them fairly well.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:39 am

How strong is Gohan's first Oozaru transformation?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:40 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong is Gohan's first Oozaru transformation?
13,070+.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SSJ Vegetto » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:23 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong is Gohan's first Oozaru transformation?
I think it should be 7,100 because his power was power up from upset power level (710).
asdf

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:32 am

Now seems as good a time as any to throw out my revised lists. Never thought I'd be saying that again.
Main series.
Movies.
I'm trying to throw on together for Super, based on the relatively simple manga continuity, but I keep running into the issue of just how strong SSG is supposed to be compared to previous powers. The one thing tripping me up is Goku's ambiguous "I never knew this realm existed"; otherwise stuff like Ultimate Gohan training up to Blue tier in a year and base Vegetto being at least stronger than SSG Goku suggest the gap isn't huge. But, it's basically just a choice of whether to add or remove a zero from a bunch of the powers on an already-done list, so eh.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:48 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I gotta disagree with you here. A while ago i made a breakdown on Goku vs Freeza and Freeza actually landed 5 blows, in contrast to Goku landing 8. With the exception of that part when Goku snaps Freeza's hand that seemed more like a skill advantage, their fight was roughly even, even after Freeza's stamina started to fade.
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. Even if you're counting the kiai and the chop, which didn't visibly affect Goku at all, it was still totally one-sided in Goku's favor. Goku landed far more hits and Freeza clearly took a lot more damage with each blow than Goku did.

This is especially damning for Freeza because he actually made a surprisingly good move by whacking Goku with his Nova Strike near the beginning of the battle. You'd figure that, since Freeza explicitly described that attack as a "finishing move" against a peer opponent, Goku would be weakened quite a bit after getting hit by it (a lot more than Freeza would be just by launching it), but Goku can still beat Freeza down handily both before and after (though, notably, Freeza only lands those 2-3 blows after the Nova Strike). This is emphasized again when Freeza punches Goku in the gut at the beginning of the battle, only for Goku to scoff, seemingly having let Freeza hit him, and say that he's weak. When Goku punches Freeza in the gut in a very similar manner later in the battle, the lizard vomits blood. Which, for a normal person, indicates a critical injury.
Is Freeza really unable to maintain his FP after turning into a Cyborg? His confidence would imply he can now.
He never mentioned that he solved that particular issue, just that he got stronger, and Toriyama's ROF script very heavily implies he never even saw it as a big issue given that his downfall comes from the exact same defect in a different form.
And he actually gave Freeza a chance - he told him to attack him with his best - Freeza just wasted it.
Like I said, I think Trunks was just baiting him into a transformation so he could kill him immediately. It wouldn't be in Trunks' character to do otherwise. He always takes the most straightforward solution.
I think the fight would've been a 50/50 shot. Gohan is a good deal stronger, but lacks on the area of stamina and numbers, making it a even fight. If #17 is a 10, i'd say Gohan is a 12.5 or so.

Something like that.
Only way i can see Gohan being 60% of 17 would be if he were pretty close to 50%, at 45 or 48%.
I think at the very least 17 should be closer to half his power than a third of it, for his boast to fit him.
The androids were hyped to be complete beasts who would give the Z Fighters a fight for their lives. Trunks said he had little hope after seeing Goku's power:
Implying that he still wasn't sure if Goku could win after training for 3 years.

And on their way to the battlefield, Goku and Piccolo were pretty nervous, dicussing about their chances of winning. Vegeta and the others were expecting the androids to givem them the fight of their lives, so clearly an android being unable to do anything beyond drawing some blood from Vegeta's lip would be below the expected, even if he can stomp Trunks.
Trunks didn't really give them any solid metric for comparison other than that they were stronger than him though.
But Trunks did make considerable improvement in the timeskip: He went from getting fodderized by the androids and struggling to surive a 1 on 1 fight to being able to hold his own against both:
I doubt that very much. When he sees 17 again in the future, the latter is totally confident and cocky, casually mentioning that Trunks is a fun game. 18 then asks if she can just kill him now, and when 17 says sure, she steps in alone with a smile on her face and fires a single ki blast at him, apparently expecting to kill him with it. They're far above him. Either they were toying with him the whole time or Trunks has a different conception of "fight fairly well" than you do.
Btw, the whole hype about Trunks is because he can one shot Freeza...
The level of power Freeza was at, sure (it's not like Tenshinhan and Kami saw him at any other level). Plus King Cold, they emphasize that too. I think "base" cyborg Freeza and Cold together representing a threat equivalent to 100% power Namek Freeza is narratively appropriate from a Worfing perspective. Technically he didn't one-shot them either, he just killed them really fast (more due to quirks of their biology than anything, but still).
The chop made Goku double over and was followed by a kick that send Goku flying, and there was also a elbow that made Goku spill blood. Discounting the final blows were Goku trashed a considerably worn out Freeza, they both landed as much hits on each other (Goku landed a knee, a punch to the guts and a kick), witch each one damaging each other as much.

It's important to note that Goku and Freeza were completely stalemated on their beam struggle, implying they were roughly equals in power, so on their final scuffle Freeza was probably also past his peak after the Nova Strike. And Freeza punched Goku in the guts during his warm up, so it doesn't really count. Freeza even said that wasn't supposed to be anything special.

If that's the case, then Freeza oughta be >> Goku to be able to kill him in such a small amount of time, yet he could be killed by someone moderatedly above Goku at best…

You know what's a more straightforward to kill Freeza? Just slice him up before he powers up. Fighting a powered up Freeza would only drag out the fight.

The actual statement is "I will take you down in seconds, i know it. You better power up" or so. This can have two meanings:
A) Trunks is so far above Freeza that he doesn't give a shit about whether Freeza's at 100% or not, he's still gonna kill him.
B) Trunks knows Freeza ain't winning this, but is being respectful and giving him a chance to try.


Not only Trunks saying Goku gave him "little hope" would imply they're rather powerful, he also calls them "Monsters with power beyond your imagination" and complains they are "Strong… Too strong!".

Or it means he just managed to catch up to the level they use to fool around with him. Still doesn't neglect his gains, especially when he wasn't claiming to be able to hold his own back then.

If we are talking about narrative perspective, then Trunks being able to one shot 100% Freeza would be way more fitting. It's enough to hype for the next main villian, like how Vegeta one shoted Kui (Whose powers equals Vegeta's on earth) but is scared shitless of facing Freeza. I think this is made pretty clear by Goku:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…

Trunks can easily kill Freeza, but can't do jack against the Androids.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Now seems as good a time as any to throw out my revised lists. Never thought I'd be saying that again.
Main series.
Movies.
I'm trying to throw on together for Super, based on the relatively simple manga continuity, but I keep running into the issue of just how strong SSG is supposed to be compared to previous powers. The one thing tripping me up is Goku's ambiguous "I never knew this realm existed"; otherwise stuff like Ultimate Gohan training up to Blue tier in a year and base Vegetto being at least stronger than SSG Goku suggest the gap isn't huge. But, it's basically just a choice of whether to add or remove a zero from a bunch of the powers on an already-done list, so eh.
Nice list. Nothing much i disserem with, sans some minor, not debate worthy stuff.

As far as the Super list goes, i think you could make a 3rd list starting with Boo Arc SSJ3 Goku/Pure Boo as a 1 and work everything from there, like i do. Still think Base Vegetto > SSJG is a contrived idea though.
ekrolo2 wrote:How strong is Gohan's first Oozaru transformation?
7,100. His true power is 710, and Oozaru is 10x that.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:26 pm

@RG96 Gero called Piccolo the strongest Z Fignter even before they fought, implying "Base" Piccolo > Gohan. Forgot to mention this and now it's too late for me do edit it into the first post...
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:27 pm

Do you think that, in case Freeza's forms doubled in amount, until he reached the true one, he was actually 4% of his full power against Super Saiyan Goku? Let's use the guides' power level: 120'000k times 0.04 equals 4'800k, twice the amount of his 3rd form's power rounded to match, and two times the amount of his 2nd with the same purpose. Now, here's the real question: could the other forms have been 4% of their full power as well? This is what I'm suggesting:

1st form Freeza: 600k (4%) -> 7'500k (50%)
2nd form Freeza: 1'200k (4%) -> 15'000k (50%)
3rd form Freeza: 2'400k (4%) -> 30'000k (50%)
True form Freeza: 4'800k (4%) -> 60'000k (50%)

Every form of Freeza that isn't the true one would fall under or match Kaioken x10 at best. Should he pump them until 100%, in case it was possible, Goku would double Kaioken's multiplier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:16 am

Desassina wrote:Do you think that, in case Freeza's forms doubled in amount, until he reached the true one, he was actually 4% of his full power against Super Saiyan Goku? Let's use the guides' power level: 120'000k times 0.04 equals 4'800k, twice the amount of his 3rd form's power rounded to match, and two times the amount of his 2nd with the same purpose. Now, here's the real question: could the other forms have been 4% of their full power as well?
Assuming he can manipulate that much of his power in his lower forms, that would bring the question: why transform if he can easily power-up in his weakest form to over 7,000k and defeat everyone below that level? I think it’s unlikely that is the case. To answer your first question, Goku was doing fine against Freeza initially, which would be odd if there was a 1,800k difference between them. A little over 3,000k sounds about right for me.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:21 am

Actually, I believe that 2nd form Freeza's power increased a bit against the others, and he decided to showcase Piccolo the 3rd one before switching to his last, when even the former was too much for Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin. He did it for kicks and not because he needed to. Also, 1'800k the difference may seem big in terms of addition, but it's only 1.6 times higher for Goku to stand against Freeza.

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