Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:35 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: This is actually making me wonder... in the Super outline, do you think the 6/10/15 scale from BOG and ROF is still in place? As far as I can see nothing actually contradicts it in the manga except for that brief Beerus vs CSSB Vegeta sparring match, and a lot of stuff supports it being present (like Iwne noting that SSG Goku was GoD-tier, GoD Toppo being equal to CSSB Vegeta after he activates his god ki, or Toriyama's outline stating that two SSBs could overwhelm Fused Zamasu without his immortality).
Maybe? I know there was a thread about a log scale which makes the BoG numbers work, more or less.
I'm not talking log, but linear. As in, Goku really is "around 6", Beerus really is 10, and Whis really is 15. Upon reviewing the manga, the only actual contradiction I see to that scale is how easily Beerus beat Vegeta in the ToP lead-up.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:19 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:I'm not talking log, but linear. As in, Goku really is "around 6", Beerus really is 10, and Whis really is 15. Upon reviewing the manga, the only actual contradiction I see to that scale is how easily Beerus beat Vegeta in the ToP lead-up.
SSB Vegetto being compared to Beerus also debunks your theory. Even if for some reason you nerf the fusion it being simply a 10/11 when it's parts are two sixes makes no sense.

The BoG and FnF lines where abandoned in every medium, clearly Mr. Toriyama didn't thought we'd have a new show.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:26 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: This is actually making me wonder... in the Super outline, do you think the 6/10/15 scale from BOG and ROF is still in place? As far as I can see nothing actually contradicts it in the manga except for that brief Beerus vs CSSB Vegeta sparring match, and a lot of stuff supports it being present (like Iwne noting that SSG Goku was GoD-tier, GoD Toppo being equal to CSSB Vegeta after he activates his god ki, or Toriyama's outline stating that two SSBs could overwhelm Fused Zamasu without his immortality).
Maybe? I know there was a thread about a log scale which makes the BoG numbers work, more or less.
I'm not talking log, but linear. As in, Goku really is "around 6", Beerus really is 10, and Whis really is 15. Upon reviewing the manga, the only actual contradiction I see to that scale is how easily Beerus beat Vegeta in the ToP lead-up.
You should check out shadowfox's post on that. He uses a logarithmic scale in combination with the 6/10/15 scale as it pertains to the manga.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:This is close to what I think the aforementioned training gap implies (plus, as noted, Vegeta spending a year in the ROSAT and "only" coming out with a way to maintain SSB's power instead of a huge power-up). Only, instead of them simply not powering up at all, their power-ups just become so incremental as to be negligible. Vegeta training for five years between Freeza and the Androids and going from 2 million to 5 million is a huge deal; Vegeta training for 5 years between Buu and Beerus and going from 75 million to 78 million isn't worth mentioning. Thus, any notable new gains come from obtaining or mastering forms. This would be why CSSB Goku is exactly equal to CSSB Vegeta at the ToP despite the former doing no training and the latter having 6 months in the ROSAT + 2 years of additional training in the gap.

This ties in well with Babidi drawing out Vegeta's power "beyond its limits" back in the Buu arc (and it doing surprisingly little) and Goku noting that he's close to his limit in the Cell arc and justifying not taking another ROSAT trip on those grounds (Afterlife training presumably let him go farther, but he still only equals limits-broken Vegeta in the same form).

This is actually making me wonder... in the Super outline, do you think the 6/10/15 scale from BOG and ROF is still in place? As far as I can see nothing actually contradicts it in the manga except for that brief Beerus vs CSSB Vegeta sparring match, and a lot of stuff supports it being present (like Iwne noting that SSG Goku was GoD-tier, GoD Toppo being equal to CSSB Vegeta after he activates his god ki, or Toriyama's outline stating that two SSBs could overwhelm Fused Zamasu without his immortality).
What makes you think it was "surprisingly little" is it because of Piccolo thinking Vegeta isn't much stronger than Kid Gohan?

And i don't think the 6/10/15 scale still applies. Mind you Base Vegetto blows Blue Goku/Vegeta out of the water but was barely stronger than SSJB Vegetto if at all. Unless you think Vegetto's SSJB multiplier is like, less than 2x.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 pm

LightBing wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:I'm not talking log, but linear. As in, Goku really is "around 6", Beerus really is 10, and Whis really is 15. Upon reviewing the manga, the only actual contradiction I see to that scale is how easily Beerus beat Vegeta in the ToP lead-up.
SSB Vegetto being compared to Beerus also debunks your theory.
They're only "compared" by Kaioshin saying Vegetto is stronger than Beerus. How exactly they stack up beyond that simple A > B is a complete mystery as far as actual hard facts go.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Mind you Base Vegetto blows Blue Goku/Vegeta out of the water but was barely stronger than SSJB Vegetto if at all. Unless you think Vegetto's SSJB multiplier is like, less than 2x.
No, he's just stronger than Beerus.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:04 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:They're only "compared" by Kaioshin saying Vegetto is stronger than Beerus. How exactly they stack up beyond that simple A > B is a complete mystery as far as actual hard facts go.
Unless Viz provided a bad translation Kaioshin says "Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus". Which puts both powers very close to each other, it's not me guessing. Which would make Beerus much stronger than Goku and Vegeta individually, taking into account the extreme power the potara fusion gave in the Boo Arc.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:13 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:No, he's just stronger than Beerus.
In the actual statement he wonders if Vegetto is stronger or not ("Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!"), implying it's too close to tell. Though Kaioshin has never seen Beerus' full power, so he might simply be speculating because of how big Vegetto's Ki is.

Beerus getting serious and taking PSSJB Vegeta out like a ragdoll does blurs things a bit when PSSJB is supposed to be a game changer, but you can just don't give a fuck about gaps, i guess.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:19 pm

LightBing wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:They're only "compared" by Kaioshin saying Vegetto is stronger than Beerus. How exactly they stack up beyond that simple A > B is a complete mystery as far as actual hard facts go.
Unless Viz provided a bad translation Kaioshin says "Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus". Which puts both powers very close to each other, it's not me guessing.
Yes, that is you guessing. That doesn't actually mean anything, again, as far as hard facts go.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Beerus getting serious and taking PSSJB Vegeta out like a ragdoll does blurs things a bit when PSSJB is supposed to be a game changer, but you can just don't give a fuck about gaps, i guess.
As I noted, that's pretty much the sole thing contradicting the scale. Everything else seems to fit fine. Though, if not-SSBE Vegeta is still weaker than Beerus after the tournament, that'll be another one.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:13 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Yes, that is you guessing. That doesn't actually mean anything, again, as far as hard facts go.
Weren't you using Kaio being uncertain about Trunks' power to argue he wasn't much stronger than Goku the other day? Why the sudden shift? Those two statements are pretty much the same. Unless you're going with the suggestion i made about Kaioshin being unaware of Beerus' power.
RandomGuy96 wrote:As I noted, that's pretty much the sole thing contradicting the scale. Everything else seems to fit fine. Though, if not-SSBE Vegeta is still weaker than Beerus after the tournament, that'll be another one.
He probably will be. I've crafted some numbers for the scenario as of now:
It sucks.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:03 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yes, that is you guessing. That doesn't actually mean anything, again, as far as hard facts go.
Weren't you using Kaio being uncertain about Trunks' power to argue he wasn't much stronger than Goku the other day? Why the sudden shift?
I never said Kaio's doubts were concrete proof of anything, just that they made an interpretation more likely. In the current discussion, I'm concerned solely about hard facts that could contradict the 6/10/15 scale still being roughly in place.
He probably will be. I've crafted some numbers for the scenario as of now:
It sucks.
Something like that. Maybe you could exploit Toriyama's "right around 6" statement to mean "slightly less than 6"...

SSG Goku/Vegeta: 55
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 60
SSR Black: 70
Fused Zamasu: 90
CSSB Goku/Vegeta: 90
Toppo: 90
Beerus: 100
Jiren: 100+
Whis: 150

It helps that the beatdowns in the Zamasu arc can easily be explained by Zamasu/Black getting free refreshes (via Zamasu's healing powers, then fusion, then immortality) while Goku and Vegeta continuously maintain states explicitly stated to drain energy quickly and accumulate damage. It also helps that SSB is apparently not too far below CSSB (SSB Goku can injure Fused Zamasu and Toriyama noted that two SSBs would be "more than enough" to deal with him).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:34 am

Would you consider different multipliers for SSJ and its grades or numbered forms based on stats? I decided to depict them like this:
Power = Strength * Agility / Energy, which reads as power being strength as many times the agility divided by energy. It's like the physics formula of Force:
Force = Mass * Change in Velocity / Time, and I compared time to energy due to the latter increasing when it takes from power.
Super Saiyan: 50 | 10 | 10 | 2, with power being half of what it could accomplish, should the energy be spared.
Grade II SSJ: 64 | 16 | 16 | 4, notice the power increase from strength and agility, but the energy consumption.
Grade III SSJ: 80 | 80 | 8 | 8, strength being the main reason for its power, with no gains from agility or enregy.

Full Power SSJ: 100 | 10 | 10 | 1, notice how power increased by controlling the energy loss with similar stats.
Super Saiyan 2: 256 | 32 | 32 | 4, the evolution of grade two from another realm by doubling its balanced stats.
Super Saiyan 3: 1'024 | 128 | 128 | 16, the most consuming form is also the strongest and most agile by four fold.
And now the task is to figure the God forms out.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:20 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:as far as hard facts go.
Ok..., I don't see why are you even asking for a discussion then with this limitation. What your defending should at the very least be hold to the standards you establish and there's zero hard facts about such a scale being relevant in Super.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:45 am

Desassina wrote:Would you consider different multipliers for SSJ and its grades or numbered forms based on stats? I decided to depict them like this:
Power = Strength * Agility / Energy, which reads as power being strength as many times the agility divided by energy. It's like the physics formula of Force:
Force = Mass * Change in Velocity / Time, and I compared time to energy due to the latter increasing when it takes from power.
Super Saiyan: 50 | 10 | 10 | 2, with power being half of what it could accomplish, should the energy be spared.
Grade II SSJ: 64 | 16 | 16 | 4, notice the power increase from strength and agility, but the energy consumption.
Grade III SSJ: 80 | 80 | 8 | 8, strength being the main reason for its power, with no gains from agility or energy.

Full Power SSJ: 100 | 10 | 10 | 1, notice how power increased by controlling the energy loss with similar stats.
Super Saiyan 2: 256 | 32 | 32 | 4, the evolution of grade two from another realm by doubling its balanced stats.
Super Saiyan 3: 1'024 | 128 | 128 | 16, the most consuming form is also the strongest and most agile by four fold.
And now the task is to figure the God forms out.
I´d like to see that happen. Someone explain this convoluted mess.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:40 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Yes, that is you guessing. That doesn't actually mean anything, again, as far as hard facts go.
If you're looking for hard facts, then we should ask Herms or someone else what's the original statement.
Something like that. Maybe you could exploit Toriyama's "right around 6" statement to mean "slightly less than 6"...

SSG Goku/Vegeta: 55
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 60
SSR Black: 70
Fused Zamasu: 90
CSSB Goku/Vegeta: 90
Toppo: 90
Beerus: 100
Jiren: 100+
Whis: 150

It helps that the beatdowns in the Zamasu arc can easily be explained by Zamasu/Black getting free refreshes (via Zamasu's healing powers, then fusion, then immortality) while Goku and Vegeta continuously maintain states explicitly stated to drain energy quickly and accumulate damage. It also helps that SSB is apparently not too far below CSSB (SSB Goku can injure Fused Zamasu and Toriyama noted that two SSBs would be "more than enough" to deal with him).
I dunno. "Right about 6" seems rather precise to me. Not to mention i find doubtful the notion that two SSJBs can take on Zamasu. The idea came from Toriyama's original draft, that was altered by Toyotaro to accomodate the necessity of a fusion. On Toyotaro's own words:
Toyotaro wrote:Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.
But what about SSJBE Vegeta and Pseudo Kaioken SSJB Goku? Like said before, they're probably still weaker than Beerus. Vegetto being multiple times stronger than even Whis seems rather far fetched as well.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:06 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:I´d like to see that happen. Someone explain this convoluted mess.
If it could have been simpler, then I would have posted it like that, otherwise not posted at all. Do you have anything of substance to contribute with other than disparaging?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 am

Desassina wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:I´d like to see that happen. Someone explain this convoluted mess.
If it could have been simpler, then I would have posted it like that, otherwise not posted at all. Do you have anything of substance to contribute with other than disparaging?
I´m not making disparaging remarks about anything. I just said I wanted to see someone explain the god forms, just like you said. What's bad about my post?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:44 am

I'm sorry... I couldn't figure it out myself. I thought that you addressed the whole post when you said convoluted. Never mind.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:07 pm

When the GT Perfect Files said Gogeta was tens or dozens of times stronger than Goku, does that mean he's anywhere between 10 to 90 times stronger? English isn't my primary language so I don't know what falls under a "tens of times" or "dozens of times".
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:31 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:When the GT Perfect Files said Gogeta was tens or dozens of times stronger than Goku, does that mean he's anywhere between 10 to 90 times stronger? English isn't my primary language so I don't know what falls under a "tens of times" or "dozens of times".
I think fusion is a little more extreme than that but I belive it does imply SSJ4 Gogeta is any were from 20x to 96x stronger than ssj4 Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:13 pm

Sir, I do not wish to question your authority (you know what is good for this place) but having only one dedicated post for anything related to power levels seems a bit off to me. Power Levels and Power-scaling are a part of our community, so why not promoting the creation of meaningful threads ( I hope that mine where) to improve the relationship between the members? Were there any guidelines-violating behaviours in my posts? I would never make a post with the intention of showing off, I just wanted to listen to the others' opinion. Excuse me if I caused a problem though. I never thought that so many people would be interested in these topics. Also, I know that this is not the place for such a message to be posted, so please read it first and then take it down. Thank you.
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