Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On top of what Daniel said, there's also Vegeta wanting Babidi to unlock his latent power even before he knew the full extension of Goku's power. He wasn't aware that Goku surpassed Gohan until Goku went all out on their fight, but he was still freaking out at Goku's power.

[Bullza]

So you're saying Vegeta knew he was largely outclassed by Goku before even realising that Goku was stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games?

By my own power level list I had Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the Cell Games with a power level of 6.5 billion and then Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta at 8.5 billion.

But now after reading all these comments and Piccolo's "perhaps" line, maybe it would be more accurate to bring them to just 7 billion?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not exactly largely outclassed. Just outclassed.

7 is too close, i think. Vegeta had no doubts Goku was stronger than Gohan. Vegeta's statements is there to confirm they're stronger, but Piccolo's is there to suggest it's not by a huge margin. If Gohan is a 6.5, i think Goku and Vegeta are a 7.2-7.5.

[Hugo Boss]

Not exactly largely outclassed. Just outclassed.

7 is too close, i think. Vegeta had no doubts Goku was stronger than Gohan. Vegeta's statements is there to confirm they're stronger, but Piccolo's is there to suggest it's not by a huge margin. If Gohan is a 6.5, i think Goku and Vegeta are a 7.2-7.5.

Vegeta outclassed Zarbon despite each having a power level of 24,000 and 23,000 respectively. Wouldn’t that make 7 less close to 6.5 in comparison? It’s like comparing 14,000 and 13,000.

[Bullza]

Well supposedly Super Saiyan Goku was 150 million and Frieza was 120 million but that was even close than Vegeta and Zarbon so it isn't too consistent in that way.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta outclassed Zarbon despite each having a power level of 24,000 and 23,000 respectively. Wouldn’t that make 7 less close to 6.5 in comparison? It’s like comparing 14,000 and 13,000.

Vegeta outclassing Zarbon was more a matter of skill. Zarbon's probably been sitting on his ass without fighting for years, whereas Vegeta has been fighting numerous battles and learned Ki sensing, what is a huge advantage on fights.

Well supposedly Super Saiyan Goku was 150 million and Frieza was 120 million but that was even close than Vegeta and Zarbon so it isn't too consistent in that way.

It's seems more like a matter of the Daizenshuu being inaccurate. Analizing only the manga, the gaps aren't perfect but are somewhat consistent.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta stated that he expected Goku to be stronger than Gohan when he transformed, so where is the idea coming from that he never realized that Goku had surpassed Gohan?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He knew this ever since Goku powered up against Yakon where he used his SSJ2 power for a split second.

And when did perhaps ever mean that the powers compared were close? All perhaps means is uncertainty. That uncertainty existing because the powers are close is baseless. Accounting for the correct defintion Vegeta himself had no uncertainty, which invalidates the notion that the powers are so close that they can't be told apart.

[DanielSSJ]

And when did perhaps ever mean that the powers compared were close? All perhaps means is uncertainty. That uncertainty existing because the powers are close is baseless. Accounting for the correct defintion Vegeta himself had no uncertainty, which invalidates the notion that the powers are so close that they can't be told apart.

The fact that Piccolo is uncertain if Vegeta surpassed kid Gohan means that they aren't miles apart. Nobody is saying that Gohan and Vegeta are neck and neck, just that Vegeta's not twice as strong or anything like that.
And your Vegeta quote is no less vague than Piccolo's statement. All Vegeta says is "Your power is even higher than Gohan's was back then." "Back then" could mean a lot of things. It could mean "back then at the tournament when he saw his current max" or it could mean "back then when he killed Cell."

[TheUltimateNinja]

And when did perhaps ever mean that the powers compared were close? All perhaps means is uncertainty. That uncertainty existing because the powers are close is baseless. Accounting for the correct defintion Vegeta himself had no uncertainty, which invalidates the notion that the powers are so close that they can't be told apart.

The fact that Piccolo is uncertain if Vegeta surpassed kid Gohan means that they aren't miles apart. Nobody is saying that Gohan and Vegeta are neck and neck, just that Vegeta's not twice as strong or anything like that.
And your Vegeta quote is no less vague than Piccolo's statement. All Vegeta says is "Your power is even higher than Gohan's was back then." "Back then" could mean a lot of things. It could mean "back then at the tournament when he saw his current max" or it could mean "back then when he killed Cell."

That's a pretty disingenuous argument, it's clear from the context that he's referring to Gohan's Cell Games self. He already made it clear that he considered Gohan's current power completely unimpressive, and there's this exchange as well:

Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Context: Vegeta talks to Gohan
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.”
Bulma: “That’s right! He doesn’t work one bit! Just like your father! I guess Saiyans just don’t work.”

It's clear Vegeta uses the power Gohan displayed 7 years ago as a benchmark.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The fact that Piccolo is uncertain if Vegeta surpassed kid Gohan means that they aren't miles apart.

No it doesn't. It says nothing in reference to the actual gap between the two since perhaps doesn't quantify anything by defintion. It just refers to something being possible.
Vegeta could be a million times stronger than Gohan and Piccolo's statement still wouldn't imply anything to the contrary. They could be close, they could not be. Nothing is said either way.
There's plenty of reasons why Piccolo wouldn't be sure even if the two weren't close.

Nobody is saying that Gohan and Vegeta are neck and neck, just that Vegeta's not twice as strong or anything like that.

You are. The current argument is that their powers are so close that Piccolo literally can't tell them apart, hence him "not knowing" if Gohan has been surpassed.

And your Vegeta quote is no less vague than Piccolo's statement. All Vegeta says is "Your power is even higher than Gohan's was back then." "Back then" could mean a lot of things. It could mean "back then at the tournament when he saw his current max" or it could mean "back then when he killed Cell."

If you want to twist the statement, then that's your prerogative. Pre-Majin Vegeta saw Gohan at the tournament and against Dabura and declared himself and Goku stronger than that Gohan.
So there's only one Gohan left to surpass and in the context of the story, that's Cell games Gohan.

The only thing you get from Piccolo's statement is that he's uncertain. Saying that he's uncertain being a result of the two being close in power was never stated.

[Analytic]

There's plenty of reasons why Piccolo wouldn't be sure even if the two weren't close.

Like what?

[miguelnuva1]

There's plenty of reasons why Piccolo wouldn't be sure even if the two weren't close.

Like what?

Piccolo on Namek had trouble reading Goku and Frieza so two ssj2 powers should just feel big to him. Toriyama is trying to get the point across that the power that crushed Cell which is ssj2 is garbage to Buu.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo on Namek had trouble reading Goku and Frieza so two ssj2 powers should just feel big to him. Toriyama is trying to get the point across that the power that crushed Cell which is ssj2 is garbage to Buu.

But Goku and Freeza were about the same...

Vegeta stated that he expected Goku to be stronger than Gohan when he transformed, so where is the idea coming from that he never realized that Goku had surpassed Gohan?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He knew this ever since Goku powered up against Yakon where he used his SSJ2 power for a split second.

And when did perhaps ever mean that the powers compared were close? All perhaps means is uncertainty. That uncertainty existing because the powers are close is baseless. Accounting for the correct defintion Vegeta himself had no uncertainty, which invalidates the notion that the powers are so close that they can't be told apart.

You're right about Vegeta expecting Goku to be stronger than Gohan right off the bat... That did slip off my mind.

Piccolo is talking about Ki size and is uncertain whose is bigger, but he's leaning towards Vegeta. It's clear they were close to each other based on PIccolo's words. Most people (Including me) think Piccolo's uncertainess is a matter of his memory slightly fadding away a bit after 7 years (Dunno about you, but most people can't remember with 100% accurateness something that happened on 2011). Goku is definitely stronger than Gohan, but the fact he's not stronger by a huge margin (Vegeta even says he's "Stronger" instead of "Far stronger" or something similiar) makes harder to compare with a power Piccolo haven't sensed in seven years.

[miguelnuva1]

Piccolo on Namek had trouble reading Goku and Frieza so two ssj2 powers should just feel big to him. Toriyama is trying to get the point across that the power that crushed Cell which is ssj2 is garbage to Buu.

But Goku and Freeza were about the same.

Yes but then at 3 million were too big for Piccolo to tell how strong they were. If Goku and Vegeta were a 10 then I would say Gohan shouldn't be under a 9.

Think it like this if you saw two measuring cups of water you could tell how much water were in the two cups. Now if you see the Pacific and Alantic Ocean you know one is bigger but you can't give a number on how much one is bigger because it's too much water.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes but then at 3 million were too big for Piccolo to tell how strong they were. If Goku and Vegeta were a 10 then I would say Gohan shouldn't be under a 9.

Think it like this if you saw two measuring cups of water you could tell how much water were in the two cups. Now if you see the Pacific and Alantic Ocean you know one is bigger but you can't give a number on how much one is bigger because it's too much water.

Dunno if Ki sensing works like that. Korin and Kuririn could easily tell how strong Perfect Cell was and how he compared to Goku and Trunks.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes but then at 3 million were too big for Piccolo to tell how strong they were. If Goku and Vegeta were a 10 then I would say Gohan shouldn't be under a 9.

Think it like this if you saw two measuring cups of water you could tell how much water were in the two cups. Now if you see the Pacific and Alantic Ocean you know one is bigger but you can't give a number on how much one is bigger because it's too much water.

Dunno if Ki sensing works like that. Korin and Kuririn could easily tell how strong Perfect Cell was and how he compared to Goku and Trunks.

Korin hesitated a bit before stating Cell was probably stronger than Goku, so what miguelnuva1 says makes sense. In Krillin’s case, it seems that feeling the pain on your body gives a much better idea of how strong your opponent is.

[p-hyvo]

z and gt completly sucks. you dont know very much about gt, right?

[jeffbr92]

z and gt completly sucks. you dont know very much about gt, right?

You mean about power levels?

[DokkanScale]

Is this good?
Trunks Saga
Chiatzou: 9700

Yamcha: 42,000

Tien: 48,000

Krillin: 52,000

Vegeta: 3,300,000

Trunks(Suppressed): 5

Trunks: 4,200,000

Trunks SSJ: 210,000,000

Mecha Frieza: 185,000,000

King Cold: 70,000,000

Goku: 4,500,000

Goku SSJ: 225,000,000

Gohan(After Training): 900,000

Piccolo: 2,890,000

Goku(After Training): 10,050,000

Android 19: 92,000,000

Android 20: 12,750,000

Goku(Heart Virus): 8,900,000

Goku SSJ(Heart Virus Growing): 92,240,000

Android 19(Kamehameha Absorbed): 95,000,000

Goku SSJ(Heart Virus Severe): 10,000,000

Goku(Extreme Heart Virus): 1,500

Vegeta: 9,000,000

Vegeta SSJ: 450,000,000

Android 19(Energy Absorbed): 135,000,000

Android 18: 500,000,000

Android 17: 510,000,000

Cell 1st form: 425,000,000

Piccolo(Pre Kami Merge): 512,000,000

Cell(Pre absorbing): 565,000,000

Android 16: 564,950,000

Cell 2nd Form: 890,000,000

Vegeta(Pre HTC): 30,000,000

Super Vegeta: 1,650,000,000

Trunks(Pre HTC): 31,000,000

Trunks SSJ Grade III: 1,860,000,000

Perfect Cell(Suppressed): 2,450,000,000

Perfect Cell Buff(Suppressed): 3,000,000,000

Goku(Pre HTC): 86,000,000

Gohan(Pre HTC): 82,000,000

Goku MSSJ: 8,000,000,000

Perfect Cell(Suppressed Aganist Goku): 8,750,000,000

Goku MSSJ(FP): 8,750,000,000

Gohan MSSJ: 4,100,000,000

Gohan SSJ2(Enraged): 44,900,000,000

Perfect Cell(Full Power): 24,000,000,000

Perfect Cell(Buff): 42,000,000,000

Cell Junior: 6,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell: 45,000,000,000

Vegeta(Enraged): 1,700,000,000,000

Just kidding, this isn't MY BULMA!!!

Vegeta(Enraged): 2,450,000,000

Gohan(Super Kamehameha): 47,995,000,000

SP Cell(Perfect Kamehameha): 48,000,000,000

Gohan SSJ2(Maximum Power): 49,000,000,000

BUU SAGA (7 YEAR GAP)
Gohan: 26,000,000

Goten: 4,500,000

Gohan SSJ: 1,300,000,000

Goten SSJ: 225,000,000

Vegeta: 470,000,000

Trunks: 4,550,000

Vegeta SSJ: 23,500,000,000

Trunks SSJ: 227,500,000

Videl: 25

Hercule: 22

Goku(Intense Training) 510,000,000

Spopovitch: 42

Supereme Kai: 8,570,000,000

Kibito: 420,000,000

Pui Pui: 30,000

Yakon: 21,790,000,000

Babidi: 3.5

Dabura: 12,000,000,000

Goku SSJ: 25,500,000,000

Goku SSJ2: 51,000,000,000

Majin Vegeta: 51,000,000,000

Gohan SSJ2: 2,600,000,000

Fat Buu: 125,000,000,000

Final Atonement: 130,000,000,000

Goku SSJ3(Suppressed): 124,970,000,000

Gotenks(Fat): 92,000

Gotenks(Skinny): 72,000

Gotenks: 950,000,000

Gotenks SSJ: 45,250,000,000

Super Buu: 360,000,000,000

Gotenks SSJ3: 362,000,000,000

Piccolo(W/ Weights): 5,000,000,000

Gohan(Z-Sword Training): 1,130,000,000

Ultimate Gohan: 565,000,000,000

Super Buu(Piccolo + Gotenks): 727,000,000,000

Super Buu(Piccolo): 365,009,050,000

Buuhan: 930,009,050,000

Goku SSJ3: 204,000,000,000

Vegeta: 490,000,000

Vegito: 400,000,000,000

Vegito SSJ: 20,000,000,000,000

Kid Buu: 195,000,000,000

Good Buu: 82,000,000,000

Vegeta SSJ2: 49,000,000,000

Goku SSJ3(Suppressed): 195,000,000,000

Super Spirit Bomb: 220,000,000,000

BOG SAGA
Whis(0.1%): 789,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus(Heavily Suppressed) 470,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku: 1,300,000,000

Goku SSJ2: 130,000,000,000

Goku SSJ3: 520,000,000,000

Vegeta 1,000,000,000

Yamcha: 1,300

Tien 1,000,000

Krillin: 1,100,000

Beerus(Against Z Fighters): 180,000,000,000,000

Good Buu: 82,500,000,000

Vegeta SSJ2(Enraged, AKA the most retarded shit ever): 1,900,000,000,000

Goku SSJ(Energy Gathered): 4,800,000,000,000

Goku SSJG: 13,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSJG(Adapting): 5,200,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSJ(God Ki Adapting): 585,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus(Heavily Suppressed): 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

RoF
Tagoma: 12,800

Sorbet: 1,700

Frieza(Pre Training): 15,600,000,000,000

Frieza Final Form: 6,700,000,000,000,000,000,000

Golden Frieza: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Frieza Soliders 1,100-10,000

Shisami 1,600,000,000

Gohan: 8,200,000

Gohan SSJ: 410,000,000

Piccolo: 45,600,000,000

Vegeta(God Ki): 18,000,000,000,000,000

Goku(God Ki): 17,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta SSGSS: 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSS: 8,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa Arc

Whis: 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Vados: 18,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 2,780,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 2,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku: 3,330,000,000,000

Botamo: 200,000,000

Frost 1st Form: 1,300,000,000

Frost Assualt Form: 28,000,000,000,000

Frost Final Form: 105,000,000,000,000

Goku SSJ: 166,500,000,000,000

Piccolo: 110,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 3,335,000,000,000

Cabba: 2,600,000,000,000

Cabba SSJ: 130,000,000,000,000

Vegeta SSJ: 166,750,000,000,000

Magetta: 166,000,000,000,000

Hit: 15,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta SSGSS: 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku(God Ki): 17,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSSS: 8,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSSKKX2: 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSSKKX10: 85,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Hit(Improved): 9,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Monaka: 970,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Zamasu Arc

Goku Black: 1,700,000,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks: 16,000,000,000,000,000

Future Mai: 9

Vegeta: 20,000,000,000,000,000

Goku: 19,500,000,000,000,000

Kid Trunks: 11,000,000

Goten 10,500,000

Trunks SSJ: 800,000,000,000,000,000

Trunks SSJ2: 1,600,000,000,000,000,000

Trunks SSJ Grade 3: 960,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta SSGSSS: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

SSJ3 Goku: 7,800,000,000,000,000,000

SSJ2 Goku: 1,950,000,000,000,000,000

Goku Black(FP): 1,950,000,000,000,000,000

Zamasu: 870,000,000,000,000,000

Gowasu: 875,000,000

Goku Black SSJR: 19,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Zamasu: 19,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSS: 8,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Trunks SSJ Rage: 18,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus(Haikai): 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus(FP): 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta(HTC): 41,000,000,000,000,000

Goku(Zenkai): 39,700,000,000,000,000

Vegeta SSGSS: 20,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku SSGSS: 19,850,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Fused Zamasu 13,650,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Vegito SSGSS: 20,175,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[jeffbr92]

Are you kidding? How Monaka can be that strong? lol