Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

dragonball0900 · Post by **dragonball0900** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:09 pm

Yeah, I also have Cell Games Goku at 60,000,000 in my numbers. It is indeed possible for the Base saiyans to be weaker than Frieza. Though I have to say that some people do exaggerate when they put BOG Goku below even 50% Frieza which I think it's not true at all.

As for Tien, I agree that he can't be out of balance between speed and strenght, surely he would try to improve both of them. I do believe Tien's speed indicates strenght too, surpassing King Piccolo.

Krillin and Yamcha's power during the 23rd Budokai. They don't surpass King Piccolo because both of them thought that the speed Weighted Goku and Tien (before changing to his full speed) were using was really impressive and were truly amazed, even though they could see them. They were also impressed with Tien's speed against Tao, saying that they were a bit afraid to fight Tien. Indicating inferiority to Tien's holding back speed which is as equal as Weighted Goku's speed, which is equal to King Piccolo. Which means, both Krillin and Yamcha are weaker than King Piccolo.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:33 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: -Here's why i don't think Freeza > Base Saiyans can't work on Cell Arc:
I think the biggest problem here is the Cell tanking the Light Grenade part. I've always been of the opinion that if these guys can amplify their offensive abilities when they focus their ki for super moves, they should be able to do the same with their defensive abilities. With that in mind, Cell doesn't have to be nearly three times stronger than Piccolo here, which tones down the power creep considerably, though I think some of those gaps are pretty extreme. It might help to look at things additively rather than multiplicatively.

Here's some numbers:
[spoiler]Freeza Arc
SS Goku: 150
100% Freeza: 120
[official stuff.]

Trunks Arc
Mecha Freeza: 150
Papa Cold: 90~100
SS Trunks: 175
SS Goku: 180
[Freeza's stronger than he was and might be enough to take on Goku, but he brings his somewhat weaker daddy along for insurance. Trunks is strong and skilled enough to take down the new-and-improved but distracted Freeza (who might've not been at full power, considering he was still pretty skinny). Goku improved too and bit tougher than Trunks.]

Androids Arc
SS Goku: 240
SS Vegeta: 250
SS Trunks: 220
[All are roughly on the same level, being moderately stronger than Goku and Trunks from three years ago.]

Piccolo: 180
-- + God: 360
-- Exhausted Light Grenade: 500
[Notably weaker than the Super Saiyans, but doubles that power when he fuses with God (now bow) and is tough enough to tango with No. 17. Ends up exhausting himself before Cell shows up, which probably affected his Light Grenade's power]

No. 16: 480
No. 17: 360
No. 18: 320
[No. 18 is quite a bit stronger than Vegeta, No. 17 is a smidge above her, and No. 16 is a lot above both of them.]

Imperfect Cell: 270
-- + humans: 480
-- concentrating defence: 600
[Starts off stronger than the mega monkeys, but is weaker than Piccolo or the twins. Eats a bunch of humans and is now on par with No. 16. Bracing himself allows him to tank Piccolo's super blast.]

Cell Arc
Semi-perfect Cell: 720
-- powered up: 840
Perfect Cell: 1,000
--less suppressed: 1,500
[Full power Semi-Cell is Imp. Cell + No. 17. Stronger than the 'droids, but weaker than Super Vegeta. Perfect Cell is above Vegeta (who might be experiencing some level of fatigue for being in Grade 2 for so long).]

SS Vegeta: 850
-- Grade 2: 1,300
SS Trunks: 800
-- Grade 2: 1,200
-- Grade 3: 1,800
[Trunks implies that Vegeta might've been able to beat Semi-Cell with regular Super Saiyan, but Grade 2 is definitely overkill. Not quite enough for Perfect Cell, though. Trunks is overall a bit weaker than Vegeta, but his Grade 3 power puts everyone to shame. To bad that form has garbage speed and that Cell wasn't even trying in the first place!]

SS Goku: 3,000
-- half power: 1,500
[Goku's half strength is enough to send everyone on the lookout into panic mode, meaning he's at least stronger than Super Vegeta. Might not necessarily be stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, since that form was deemed completely irrelevant almost immediately. I thought on par with the Cell that kicked Vegeta's face in would be appropriate here.][/spoiler]
All the way to the Cell Games, and Goku's only at Freeza's half power in base.

Those seems pretty good too. I'd take this Cell focusing on defense to tank the Light Grenade, but he seems to be really relaxed when he walks to Piccolo. I also have some things to say:
-I know these are official numbers, but i think Freeza is too far from Goku. Vegeta was about 1.33x weaker than K3 Goku and got his ass beaten up and down. 1.25x is too close from 1.33x, and Freeza put un an really good fight until his stamina got screwed.
-I like your numbers for the Android Arc SSJs, but Piccolo should be > Sick Goku who's > Yardrat Goku. Nobody noticed Goku was weaker and Piccolo was confident and take on an powered up 20 as good as (or even better) than Goku took 19.
-You could say Vegeta's strain affected his battle against 18, since she tanked a punch and a blast and Piccolo make a note about this, but i doubt the strain would affect him so badly.
-Semi Cell's power up is too low. He was confident on taking someone who ragdolled his initial self.
-I could buy Grade 2's strain, Vegeta seems to be sweating a lot and putting effort to beat down Cell, but i don't think it acted so badly go from an close rival to having a kick tanked. You could also say Vegeta lost a lot of power with the Final Flash, that was pretty massive and Vegeta was out of breath after it.
-Just to remember Goku wasn't fighting Cell at 50%. He powered up and then turn back to normal, and at the Cell Games when Goku made the pose to power up Kuririn is like "Yeah, Goku is going to use his full power now". If everybody thinks that 50% was his max and he was already fighting with that level, why nobody was surprised by Goku preparing to power up?

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:47 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Those seems pretty good too. I'd take this Cell focusing on defense to tank the Light Grenade, but he seems to be really relaxed when he walks to Piccolo. I also have some things to say:
-I know these are official numbers, but i think Freeza is too far from Goku. Vegeta was about 1.33x weaker than K3 Goku and got his ass beaten up and down. 1.25x is too close from 1.33x, and Freeza put un an really good fight until his stamina got screwed.
-I like your numbers for the Android Arc SSJs, but Piccolo should be > Sick Goku who's > Yardrat Goku. Nobody noticed Goku was weaker and Piccolo was confident and take on an powered up 20 as good as (or even better) than Goku took 19.
-You could say Vegeta's strain affected his battle against 18, since she tanked a punch and a blast and Piccolo make a note about this, but i doubt the strain would affect him so badly.
-Semi Cell's power up is too low. He was confident on taking someone who ragdolled his initial self.
-I could buy Grade 2's strain, Vegeta seems to be sweating a lot and putting effort to beat down Cell, but i don't think it acted so badly go from an close rival to having a kick tanked. You could also say Vegeta lost a lot of power with the Final Flash, that was pretty massive and Vegeta was out of breath after it.
-Just to remember Goku wasn't fighting Cell at 50%. He powered up and then turn back to normal, and at the Cell Games when Goku made the pose to power up Kuririn is like "Yeah, Goku is going to use his full power now". If everybody thinks that 50% was his max and he was already fighting with that level, why nobody was surprised by Goku preparing to power up?

- Eh. I'm not really that picky about power gaps, but you could attribute the Goku/Freeza fight playing out much differently than the Vegeta/Goku fight due to a number of different circumstances. Previous injuries affecting their performance. Goku's overall newness to the Super Saiyan form. Freeza's frankly insane durability. Goku not trying to decisively end the fight like he was with Vegeta. Or all of the above.
- I don't think Piccolo must be stronger than sick Goku started off as. The vibe I got from the scene was that Piccolo suspected something was off about Goku from the start, but needed to actually see Goku fight to be sure. Gohan noticed that Goku was at nowhere near the top of his game, and agreed with Piccolo about how weak he was, but I'd still say that Gohan wasn't as strong or stronger than Goku was at the time.
- I never said Vegeta lost to No. 18 because of the stamina thing. He was just weaker than her, plain and simple. Her infinite stamina just made it even more assured.
- Eh. I don't really see the issue with Semi-Cell, but he could easily be below 700 and it wouldn't make a difference. The important part is his full power.
- Again, don't put too much stock in power gaps. Strained and somewhat fatigued Vegeta might not put up a great fight for a revitalized, confident, and barely-trying Cell even if they're relatively close to each other, but as you said, Vegeta's power probably dipped considerably after his Final Flash. More than enough for Cell to take a boot to the face without flinching.
- In regards to Goku, all I meant was that if his 50% power that he showed off to Karin was enough to rival the Cell that beat up Super Vegeta, that would be enough to freak out the folks up at Kami's Temple. It had nothing to do with their fight at the Cell Games.

Mind you, these are old numbers. I just brought 'em out to show that getting to the Cell Games without the Saiyans' base forms surpassing 100% Freeza is entirely possible. I'm currently (and slowly) revising my list, so some of these things might change a little.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Those seems pretty good too. I'd take this Cell focusing on defense to tank the Light Grenade, but he seems to be really relaxed when he walks to Piccolo. I also have some things to say:
-I know these are official numbers, but i think Freeza is too far from Goku. Vegeta was about 1.33x weaker than K3 Goku and got his ass beaten up and down. 1.25x is too close from 1.33x, and Freeza put un an really good fight until his stamina got screwed.
-I like your numbers for the Android Arc SSJs, but Piccolo should be > Sick Goku who's > Yardrat Goku. Nobody noticed Goku was weaker and Piccolo was confident and take on an powered up 20 as good as (or even better) than Goku took 19.
-You could say Vegeta's strain affected his battle against 18, since she tanked a punch and a blast and Piccolo make a note about this, but i doubt the strain would affect him so badly.
-Semi Cell's power up is too low. He was confident on taking someone who ragdolled his initial self.
-I could buy Grade 2's strain, Vegeta seems to be sweating a lot and putting effort to beat down Cell, but i don't think it acted so badly go from an close rival to having a kick tanked. You could also say Vegeta lost a lot of power with the Final Flash, that was pretty massive and Vegeta was out of breath after it.
-Just to remember Goku wasn't fighting Cell at 50%. He powered up and then turn back to normal, and at the Cell Games when Goku made the pose to power up Kuririn is like "Yeah, Goku is going to use his full power now". If everybody thinks that 50% was his max and he was already fighting with that level, why nobody was surprised by Goku preparing to power up?
- Eh. I'm not really that picky about power gaps, but you could attribute the Goku/Freeza fight playing out much differently than the Vegeta/Goku fight due to a number of different circumstances. Previous injuries affecting their performance. Goku's overall newness to the Super Saiyan form. Freeza's frankly insane durability. Goku not trying to decisively end the fight like he was with Vegeta. Or all of the above.
- I don't think Piccolo must be stronger than sick Goku started off as. The vibe I got from the scene was that Piccolo suspected something was off about Goku from the start, but needed to actually see Goku fight to be sure. Gohan noticed that Goku was at nowhere near the top of his game, and agreed with Piccolo about how weak he was, but I'd still say that Gohan wasn't as strong or stronger than Goku was at the time.
- I never said Vegeta lost to No. 18 because of the stamina thing. He was just weaker than her, plain and simple. Her infinite stamina just made it even more assured.
- Eh. I don't really see the issue with Semi-Cell, but he could easily be below 700 and it wouldn't make a difference. The important part is his full power.
- Again, don't put too much stock in power gaps. Strained and somewhat fatigued Vegeta might not put up a great fight for a revitalized, confident, and barely-trying Cell even if they're relatively close to each other, but as you said, Vegeta's power probably dipped considerably after his Final Flash. More than enough for Cell to take a boot to the face without flinching.
- In regards to Goku, all I meant was that if his 50% power that he showed off to Karin was enough to rival the Cell that beat up Super Vegeta, that would be enough to freak out the folks up at Kami's Temple. It had nothing to do with their fight at the Cell Games.

Mind you, these are old numbers. I just brought 'em out to show that getting to the Cell Games without the Saiyans' base forms surpassing 100% Freeza is entirely possible. I'm currently (and slowly) revising my list, so some of these things might change a little.

-We don't have much fights to compare gaps, so i always compare things to Goku vs Vegeta. Freeza's durabily was actually a bit screwed by the Genki Dama, so i wouldn't trust that. And he was actually trying to finish the fight, he only had 5 minutes to defeat the guy who just killed his best friends. Yeah, he was relaxed and confident he'd win, but that doesn't mean he was holding back
-My point for Piccolo > Sick Goku is actually that Piccolo stomped 20 post, who's stronger than 19 pre who Goku wasn't stomping that badly.
-I actually said you could say this to justifie 18's tanks.
-I'm talking about Semi Cell's full power. He thought he could beat Vegeta, who already stomped his initial form. Piccolo's reaction to Vegeta's power up also implies there is a big multiplier and a big gap IMO.
-You actually put 50% Goku = Initial Perfect Cell, and you just said they were rivals. How could 50% Goku rival Initial Cell if he was already even with Warming up Goku?

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:44 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:-We don't have much fights to compare gaps, so i always compare things to Goku vs Vegeta. Freeza's durabily was actually a bit screwed by the Genki Dama, so i wouldn't trust that. And he was actually trying to finish the fight, he only had 5 minutes to defeat the guy who just killed his best friends. Yeah, he was relaxed and confident he'd win, but that doesn't mean he was holding back
-My point for Piccolo > Sick Goku is actually that Piccolo stomped 20 post, who's stronger than 19 pre who Goku wasn't stomping that badly.
-I actually said you could say this to justifie 18's tanks.
-I'm talking about Semi Cell's full power. He thought he could beat Vegeta, who already stomped his initial form. Piccolo's reaction to Vegeta's power up also implies there is a big multiplier and a big gap IMO.
-You actually put 50% Goku = Initial Perfect Cell, and you just said they were rivals. How could 50% Goku rival Initial Cell if he was already even with Warming up Goku?

- I think that the fact that Freeza took the Genki Dama head-on, was bisected, was blasted by Goku, and took the brunt of a planetary explosion and lived to tell the tale speaks volumes about how tough and resilient he actually was.

- Goku was kicking No. 19's ass though. The 'droid didn't even land a single blow before he absorbed that Kamehameha, which. Part of the problem is that, being fully mechanical, No. 19 was extra resilient making it hard to put him down. Vegeta even said that No. 19 was built sturdily and needed to deal with the absorbing nodes before he could put down the clown permanently.

- I suppose that could be used to justify keeping Vegeta and No. 18 relatively close together, but to me it seemed that she was just a lot stronger than him. Whatever. Either explanation works.

- I'm not sure what the problem is then. Do you think Semi-Cell should be closer to Vegeta? Or farther away? If it's the former, then even after Cell powered up, Vegeta was still manhandling him with utter ease. And if it's the latter, I'd say that a 50% increase is pretty sizeable, especially if you look at things additively. From Piccolo's perspective, the amount of power Vegeta added to himself is bigger than Piccolo's total power.

- I'm not sure what you mean by "warming up Goku" or what he has to do with the power Cell used to beat Vegeta.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:36 pm

I want to make a contribution to the on-going conversation.

It's regarding Goku vs Freeza. I defend we should ignore all the previous battle damage and evaluate that battle as if both fighters were at their best.

For this I highlight these two quotes, specially the second one were it's like Mr.Toriyama is speaking directly to us.
[spoiler]Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn't, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.[/spoiler]
I think the intention is to have exactly what Goku describes, a fight at full power between the two strongest beings of the Universe, with all the drama behind it. Having two near broken men fighting cripples the premise. Yeah, Goku and Freeza statements are contradictory to happened and what's said previously but we are supposed to role with it.

To add this is not an exception, the premise of having the two strongest fighters fight at full power is common in Dragon Ball. The best example is Cell vs Gohan where Goku gave the first a senzu. The problem here is that Mr.Toriyama didn't came up with a way to heal Goku and Freeza.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:49 pm

LightBing wrote:I want to make a contribution to the on-going conversation.

It's regarding Goku vs Freeza. I defend we should ignore all the previous battle damage and evaluate that battle as if both fighters were at their best.

For this I highlight these two quotes, specially the second one were it's like Mr.Toriyama is speaking directly to us.
[spoiler]Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn't, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.[/spoiler]
I think the intention is to have exactly what Goku describes, a fight at full power between the two strongest beings of the Universe, with all the drama behind it. Having two near broken men fighting cripples the premise. Yeah, Goku and Freeza statements are contradictory to happened and what's said previously but we are supposed to role with it.

To add this is not an exception, the premise of having the two strongest fighters fight at full power is common in Dragon Ball. The best example is Cell vs Gohan where Goku gave the first a senzu. The problem here is that Mr.Toriyama didn't came up with a way to heal Goku and Freeza.

I definitely agree that Goku and Freeza were at full power when they fought. I personally think the 120/150 numbers are perfectly serviceable for their fight, but I wanted to offer some possible explanations for people who do have issues with the official numbers. My main point was that even if Goku and Freeza were at their full battle power (due to Goku's transformation restoring him and Freeza's untouched reserves), their previous injuries might've affected their performance in some minor way. What might've been a stomp was turned into a somewhat more even confrontation. I also find it distasteful to say that Goku and Freeza were at half power or anything like that, but I find it plausible that the outcome was influenced by things like the fighters' condition, special attributes, attitudes, etc.

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:46 am

I personally feel that Goku didn't have full control of his new Super Saiyan power yet, and when he transformed initially, it was only a increase of 10x from what it was before (10+20=30x). That's why Freeza seemed to have gained the advantage for a little bit when he finally went 100%. Goku gradually gets used to the form, though.

So it's like Goku is gradually increasing in power, while Freeza's power is gradually decreasing.

It's only at the end of the fight that Goku temporarily has full control over the form, being able to transform into it at will, and gets that battle power of 150,000,000.

/headcanon

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:21 am

DBZ Macky wrote:I personally feel that Goku didn't have full control of his new Super Saiyan power yet, and when he transformed initially, it was only a increase of 10x from what it was before (10+20=30x). That's why Freeza seemed to have gained the advantage for a little bit when he finally went 100%. Goku gradually gets used to the form, though.

So it's like Goku is gradually increasing in power, while Freeza's power is gradually decreasing.

It's only at the end of the fight that Goku temporarily has full control over the form, being able to transform into it at will, and gets that battle power of 150,000,000.

/headcanon

I think that Goku's overall "newness" with Super Saiyan could've been a factor in that fight as well, but I don't really buy into the logic of "Super Saiyan was initially 30x because it was 10x greater than his previous max of 20x" Not only does that seem to be quite a leap in logic, it also doesn't make any sense. A "_ fold increase" refers to multiplication, not addition. If you take Toriyama's "It felt like a 10-fold increase when I drew it" line literally (I don't), then it's either a 10x boost from base (which doesn't make sense, since Kaioken x10 wasn't enough), or a boost from Kaioken x10 or x20 (which doesn't make sense, since Toriyama says that the straight 50-fold boost is extravagant and that's peanuts compared to a 100x or 200x boost).

There's a lot of possible explanations that could account for a fairly even fight, despite the relatively large gap between them. (A) Goku's and Freeza's previous injuries hampering their performance, even if they're at full ki capacity, (B) Goku is new to Super Saiyan and can't control his ki quite as well as he normally can, (C) Goku's not desperate to end the fight ASAP anymore, and/or (D) Freeza's freaky alien biology makes him super resilient. Resilient enough to survive a planetary explosion after being bisected, among other things. Though I guess you should just go with whatever you're comfortable with.

My preferred one is option D. Goku starts off out for revenge, but as he calms down a bit, the prospect of fighting the strongest guy in the Universe at his best is too good to pass up. He lets Freeza reach 100%, even though there's only 5 minutes before the planet goes kablooey. He ends up calling quits without killing Freeza, because the fight got boring (tearing Freeza's pride to shreds was a nice bonus). I think that if Goku kept that blood-lusted attitude for the rest of the fight, he probably would've finished off Freeza much quicker than he did. On a separate, but related note, it seemed to me that Goku was in control of the fight from start to finish. He took a few blows from Freeza, but those usually went into the "Yeah, I'm tough enough to take your punches and get up for more" category. The only attack that really knocked Goku for a loop was when Freeza slammed into him with that barrier thing, and even then, that was a sneak attack.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:29 am

DanielSSJ wrote:I definitely agree that Goku and Freeza were at full power when they fought. I personally think the 120/150 numbers are perfectly serviceable for their fight, but I wanted to offer some possible explanations for people who do have issues with the official numbers. My main point was that even if Goku and Freeza were at their full battle power (due to Goku's transformation restoring him and Freeza's untouched reserves), their previous injuries might've affected their performance in some minor way. What might've been a stomp was turned into a somewhat more even confrontation. I also find it distasteful to say that Goku and Freeza were at half power or anything like that, but I find it plausible that the outcome was influenced by things like the fighters' condition, special attributes, attitudes, etc.

Wait, aren't you contradicting yourself? If they were at full power then everything that happened before doesn't affect them. Goku literally says they want to fight at their best, there's no room for ambiguity, best is absolute. There's nothing like them being at full power yet Freeza having a cut below his eye which bothers him and affects the battle.

I also would like to add that I don't agree with the gap from the 120/150 numbers which is 20%. Something like 12%-14% would better represent the fight. While there's visible dominance from Goku, Freeza is able to trade blows with him and withstand Goku's best technique the Kamehameha.
Plus we know that an improved Mecha Freeza was still doubtful of beating Goku and needed help from his weaker father(which should definitely be weaker than his 100% power). Making me think the gap was not as large as 20% if Freeza thought King Cold could be a factor.
Below is my rationalization of the gaps, just so you know I'm not making these up from nothing.

Gaps Context:
[spoiler]Raditz (12xx, said so by Nappa) vs Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) Gap 66%

Raditz owns them both at the same time, there's no dispute that in a head-to-head fight this power difference is more than enough for dominance. I highlight that Goku and Piccolo had the advantage of ki-sensing/modification, besides the surprise factor.
Piccolo would never have been able to hit with his Makankosappo alone and he failed the first time with Goku's help.

Part 1: Goku (8.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 56%

This is rather short but we see Goku turned into a punching bag, just no chance at all. Another case of dominance.

Part 2: Kaioken x2 Goku (16.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 12%

This super short, what we see is Goku partially dodging Vegeta's attack. Which indicates that this wouldn't be a one way beat down. However, it appears Goku still wouldn't have any chance of victory in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part 3: Kaioken x3 Goku (24.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 25%

Vegeta gets dominated. He tries to fight back, failing to hit Goku. This is very one-sided.

Vegeta (24.000) vs Kiwi (18.000) Gap 25%

A panicked and fleeing Kiwi is easily killed by Vegeta. The difference between this fight and the previous gap 25% fight are three factors: Kiwi mental state in here does him harm, he's already a defeated man; Vegeta's toughness to resist Goku onslaught; Goku's suffering the stress of the Kaioken.
I would say there's consistency between both fight's, if we take into account the details and not simply raw power. The result would be the same, the impact changes due to the details.

Nail (42.000) vs First Form Freeza (530.000) Gap 93%
Overkill...

Conclusion: At the very least 25% power advantage is enough to own, even with other factors like toughness, mental state and ki-sensing/modifying advantages. Vegeta is one of the biggest tanks in the series, that wouldn't stop him from losing to Kaioken x3 Goku.
I should note that if you let yourself get hit by a Genki Dama or allow Piccolo to charge his Makankosappo for an hour, you're gonna lose. Special techniques can cover any gap, what I'm discussing is a head-to-head type of confrontation.

Based on other fight's that we can kinda guess the characters power level, I theorize that a gap of 10/15% can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, team work, etc...
10% or less and we should have an entertaining and even fight.[/spoiler]

Rubens · Post by **Rubens** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:38 am

In my opinion, since both Goku and Freeza sustained heavy injuries (Goku was stomped all the way until he used the genki dama, Freeza got bested by Goku on a few occasions and got hit by the genki dama), which is visible when Goku first turns super saiyan, their fight at full power was probably something like "as full powered as they could get". Even though I don't use "official numbers", I would say that the 150 and 120 million numbers would be their hypothetical full powers while healthy; in other words, injured as they were back on Namek, they could has as well have their powers floating around something like 90-100 million. When Freeza first powers up to 100% he was likely briefly above Goku but his power started waning as the fight went on; on Goku's case, he might have started off far from his full power (as Freeza at 50% still thought he could fight back, although one could argue that Freeza couldn't sense ki hence he wouldn't know that) due to being worn out and injured and unused to the super saiyan power, but slowly increased it to a point where Freeza's drop of power made the battle pointless to continue. I'm even considering throwing in here Toriyama's comment that saiyans' power grows while they fight.

In the same line of thought, if Freeza's 120 million BP was his hypothetical full power, that could very well be his power as Mecha-Freeza.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:03 am

Freeza comes back in RoF and claims Goku caught him off-guard the last time, so he wouldn't let that happen again and thus would use Final Form from the beginning.
I take that as justification, that he wasn't at his actual 100% power against Goku, as there really is no reason to have that line, if getting caught off guard meant absolutely nothing in regards to their last fight.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:58 pm

LightBing wrote:Wait, aren't you contradicting yourself? If they were at full power then everything that happened before doesn't affect them. Goku literally says they want to fight at their best, there's no room for ambiguity, best is absolute. There's nothing like them being at full power yet Freeza having a cut below his eye which bothers him and affects the battle.

I also would like to add that I don't agree with the gap from the 120/150 numbers which is 20%. Something like 12%-14% would better represent the fight. While there's visible dominance from Goku, Freeza is able to trade blows with him and withstand Goku's best technique the Kamehameha.
Plus we know that an improved Mecha Freeza was still doubtful of beating Goku and needed help from his weaker father(which should definitely be weaker than his 100% power). Making me think the gap was not as large as 20% if Freeza thought King Cold could be a factor.
Below is my rationalization of the gaps, just so you know I'm not making these up from nothing.

Gaps Context:
[spoiler]Raditz (12xx, said so by Nappa) vs Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) Gap 66%

Raditz owns them both at the same time, there's no dispute that in a head-to-head fight this power difference is more than enough for dominance. I highlight that Goku and Piccolo had the advantage of ki-sensing/modification, besides the surprise factor.
Piccolo would never have been able to hit with his Makankosappo alone and he failed the first time with Goku's help.

Part 1: Goku (8.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 56%

This is rather short but we see Goku turned into a punching bag, just no chance at all. Another case of dominance.

Part 2: Kaioken x2 Goku (16.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 12%

This super short, what we see is Goku partially dodging Vegeta's attack. Which indicates that this wouldn't be a one way beat down. However, it appears Goku still wouldn't have any chance of victory in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part 3: Kaioken x3 Goku (24.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 25%

Vegeta gets dominated. He tries to fight back, failing to hit Goku. This is very one-sided.

Vegeta (24.000) vs Kiwi (18.000) Gap 25%

A panicked and fleeing Kiwi is easily killed by Vegeta. The difference between this fight and the previous gap 25% fight are three factors: Kiwi mental state in here does him harm, he's already a defeated man; Vegeta's toughness to resist Goku onslaught; Goku's suffering the stress of the Kaioken.
I would say there's consistency between both fight's, if we take into account the details and not simply raw power. The result would be the same, the impact changes due to the details.

Nail (42.000) vs First Form Freeza (530.000) Gap 93%
Overkill...

Conclusion: At the very least 25% power advantage is enough to own, even with other factors like toughness, mental state and ki-sensing/modifying advantages. Vegeta is one of the biggest tanks in the series, that wouldn't stop him from losing to Kaioken x3 Goku.
I should note that if you let yourself get hit by a Genki Dama or allow Piccolo to charge his Makankosappo for an hour, you're gonna lose. Special techniques can cover any gap, what I'm discussing is a head-to-head type of confrontation.

Based on other fight's that we can kinda guess the characters power level, I theorize that a gap of 10/15% can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, team work, etc...
10% or less and we should have an entertaining and even fight.[/spoiler]

I'm honestly not really big on crunching exact percentage gaps. If the official numbers made Goku out to be twice as strong as Freeza or something, I'd definitely be scratching my head at that, but a 20% difference seems within reason. My main reasons for throwing these other explanations out there are for people who do have issues with those figures. If you don't buy the "previous injuries affected their performance in small ways" idea, there's still the "Goku's not quite used to Super Saiyan yet" and/or "Freeza's a goddamn tank" idea. Or if you're most comfortable with just bumping Freeza up to 140 million instead, that's alright too.

dbgtFO wrote:Freeza comes back in RoF and claims Goku caught him off-guard the last time, so he wouldn't let that happen again and thus would use Final Form from the beginning.I take that as justification, that he wasn't at his actual 100% power against Goku, as there really is no reason to have that line, if getting caught off guard meant absolutely nothing in regards to their last fight.

I think that was Freeza trying to save face. It's like a little kid who lost at a video game saying "You only won because I was having an off day!"

Torturephile · Post by **Torturephile** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:44 pm

Wait, wasn't this thread in the Super forums?

dragonball0900 · Post by **dragonball0900** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:19 am

Torturephile wrote:Wait, wasn't this thread in the Super forums?

This is the thread for the power levels in general. There's another separate thread in the Super forums, which is the one I think you're referring to.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Yeah it looks like they swapped the names around.

Anyway I did a power level list for the movies which may or may be terrible but people can have a look and see if anything needs changing.

Dead Zone

[spoiler]Goku (Weights) – 334
Goku – 416

Piccolo (Weights) – 322
Piccolo – 408

Gohan (Enraged) – 1,307
Kami – 290

Garlic Jr – 362
Super Garlic Jr – 500
Ginger – 258
Nicky – 258
Sansho – 258 [/spoiler]

The World’s Strongest

[spoiler]Goku – 8,000
Goku (Kaioken x2) – 16,000
Goku (Kaioken x3) – 24,000
Goku (Kaioken x4) – 32,000

Piccolo – 7,600
Gohan – 1,900
Krillin – 1,770

Dr Wheelo – 27,000
Dr Wheelo (Powered Up) – 40,000
Ebifurya – 7,100
Misokatsun – 7,100
Kishime – 7,100[/spoiler]

The Tree of Might

[spoiler]Goku – 30,000
Goku (Kaioken x2) – 60,000
Goku (Kaioken x10) – 300,000

Piccolo – 18,000
Gohan – 10,000
Tien – 8,100
Krillin – 7,900
Yamcha – 7,300
Chiaotzu – 3,600

Turles – 22,500
Turles (Post Fruit) – 375,000
Daiz – 13,000
Amond – 9,100
Cacao – 8,400
Rasin – 8,000
Lakasei – 7,600[/spoiler]

Lord Slug

[spoiler]Goku – 90,000
Goku (False Super Saiyan) – 4,500,000
Goku (Kaioken x100) – 9,000,000

Piccolo – 47,500
Gohan – 14,000

Lord Slug – 3,600,000
Lord Slug (Great Namek) – 6,600,000
Agila – 47,000
Medamatcha – 47,000
Wings – 38,000[/spoiler]

Cooler’s Revenge

[spoiler]Goku – 3,600,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 180,000,000

Piccolo – 130,000
Gohan – 22,000
Krillin – 20,000

Cooler – 4,400,000
Cooler (Final Form) – 145,000,000

Salza – 125,000
Neiz – 96,000
Dore – 96,000[/spoiler]

The Return of Cooler

[spoiler]Goku – 5,200,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 260,000,000

Vegeta – 5,400,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 270,000,000

Piccolo – 190,000,000

Gohan – 4,000,000
Krillin – 3,500,000

Meta-Cooler – 300,000,000[/spoiler]

Super Android 13

[spoiler]Goku – 5,200,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 260,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (Spirit Bomb Absorbed) – 440,000,000

Vegeta – 5,400,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 270,000,000

Trunks – 4,800,000
Super Saiyan Trunks – 240,000,000

Piccolo – 190,000,000

Gohan – 4,000,000
Krillin – 3,500,000

Android 13 – 260,000,000
Super Android 13 – 340,000,000
Android 14 – 215,000,000
Android 15 – 240,000,000[/spoiler]

The Legendary Super Saiyan Broly

[spoiler]Goku – 44,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 2,200,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (Power Absorbed) – 3,900,000,000

Gohan – 44,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan – 2,200,000,000

Vegeta – 32,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 1,600,000,000

Trunks – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks – 1,500,000,000

Piccolo – 1,000,000,000

Broly – 46,000,000
Super Saiyan Broly – 2,300,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyan Broly – 2,900,000,000

Paragus – 4,000[/spoiler]

Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans

[spoiler]Goku – 44,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 2,200,000,000

Gohan – 44,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan – 2,200,000,000

Vegeta – 32,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 1,600,000,000

Trunks – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks – 1,500,000,000

Piccolo – 1,000,000,000

Hatchiyack – 3,250,000,000[/spoiler]

Bojack Unbound

[spoiler]Gohan – 64,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan – 3,200,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan – 6,400,000,000

Vegeta – 36,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 1,800,000,000

Trunks – 34,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks – 1,700,000,000

Piccolo – 1,200,000,000

Bojack – 2,250,000,000
Bojack (Transformed) – 3,600,000,000

Bido – 1,800,000,000
Bujin – 1,800,000,000
Zangya – 1,800,000,000
Kogu – 780,000,000
Kogu (Transformed) – 1,250,000,000[/spoiler]

Broly Second Coming

[spoiler]Gohan – 55,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan – 2,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan – 5,500,000,000

Goten – 34,000,000
Super Saiyan Goten – 1,700,000,000

Kid Trunks – 36,000,000
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks – 1,800,000,000

Broly – 110,000,000
Super Saiyan Broly – 5,500,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyan Broly – 6,900,000,000[/spoiler]

Bio-Broly

[spoiler]Goten – 34,000,000
Super Saiyan Goten – 1,700,000,000

Kid Trunks – 36,000,000
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks – 1,800,000,000

Android 18 - 340,000,000

Bio-Broly - 2,200,000,000[/spoiler]

Fusion Reborn

[spoiler]Goku – 100,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku – 10,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku – 40,000,000,000

Vegeta – 85,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta – 8,500,000,000

Gogeta – 1,500,000,000
Super Saiyan Gogeta – 75,000,000,000

Pikkon – 2,400,000,000

Janemba – 25,000,000,000
Super Janemba – 55,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Wrath of the Dragon

[spoiler]Goku – 1,250,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku – 62,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku – 125,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku – 500,000,000,000

Vegeta – 85,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 4,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta – 8,500,000,000

Goten – 34,000,000
Super Saiyan Goten – 1,700,000,000

Kid Trunks – 36,000,000
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks – 1,800,000,000

Gotenks – 600,000,000
Super Saiyan Gotenks – 30,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks – 60,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks – 240,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan – 360,000,000,000

Hirudegarn – 450,000,000,000[/spoiler]

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:19 am

Here are my two cents worth. Please give it feedbacks and critics.

Spoiler:

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:38 pm

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:06 pm

Noah wrote:How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

My lists usually peg him at around 70~80 when he first appeared and I just use the official 210 for his modified reappearance in the 23rd Tournament.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:38 pm

Noah wrote:How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

These are my numbers:
Tao Pai Pai - 49
Cyborg Tao - 140

I reached these numbers by power-scaling everything based on the numbers given in the Raditz arc. Note that I enforce the "half power" line from Piccolo Daimao

Tao gets twice as strong as 22nd TB Goku, seems fine for a Cyborg from an already powerful warrior. The progression seems in line with the gains other characters got. Everyone except Chiaotzu and Chi-Chi would defeat him without much trouble.

Kanzenshuu

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