Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Analytic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:11 pm

PFM18 wrote:It would have a myriad of contradictions like GT does.
Such as?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:38 pm

Analytic wrote:
PFM18 wrote:It would have a myriad of contradictions like GT does.
Such as?
Do you want me to list them all?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Analytic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Analytic wrote:
PFM18 wrote:It would have a myriad of contradictions like GT does.
Such as?
Do you want me to list them all?
Yes. GT's powerscale is admittedly a bit wonky, but I don't really see it being as bad as you're suggesting.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:53 pm

Analytic wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Analytic wrote: Such as?
Do you want me to list them all?
Yes. GT's powerscale is admittedly a bit wonky, but I don't really see it being as bad as you're suggesting.
Well I'm not entirely sure but this could end but being a long post and and I'm attempting(and failing) to be productive right now so I'll edit this post and make my response when I get the chance.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:47 pm

Champa The Destroyer wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Champa The Destroyer wrote:Jaco:0.00000001
Krillin:0.000005
Tien:0.000006
Roshi:0.000003
Piccolo:0.09
Gohan (Base): 0.09
Gohan (SS): 4.5
Tagoma-Ginyu:4
First Form Freeza: 35
Goku (base): 850
Vegeta (base): 850
Final Form Freeza: 820
SSB Goku: 2,000,000
SSB Vegeta: 2,000,000
Golden Freeza: 2,150,000
Golden Freeza (tired): 600,000



Now for the U6 Arc!

Goku (base): 2,700
Vegeta (base): 2,700
Botamo: 0.5 (his only gimmick was tanking attacks)
Frost (first form): 500
Frost (Assault Form): 2,750 (he had the upper hand against Base Goku, if I remember correctly)
Frost (Final Form): 80,000
Goku (SS): 135,000
Piccolo: 2,500 (I think most people put him at below base)
Frost (Extremely Tired): 3,200
Vegeta (SS): 135,000
Magetta: 130,000
Cabba (Base): 2,500 (Vegeta I think uses his full power, but I still think Cabba is slightly weaker)
Cabba (SS): 125,000
Vegeta (SSB): 6,350,400 (I got this number from the multiplier I made from SSB in the previous arc, which was 2,352)
Hit (initial): 10,000,000
Goku (SSB): 6,350,400 (but is able to predict Time Skip)
Goku (SSB Kaioken x10): 63,504,000
Hit (Full Power and Improved): 63,510,000
I don't see anything that jumps out at me as being bad. But a few minor critiques:

-Goku and Vegeta train for 3 years in the ROSAT leading up to the Universe 6 Tournament but Vegeta comments that they are approaching their limit and aren't getting that much stronger. So I think Goku/Vegeta going from 850->2,700 is a bit much imo.
-I think you made the difference between Assault Form Frost and a little too big. Frost being dominated by SSJ Goku and Vegeta and being one shot, I think the gap is huge. Nobody really comments on an especially large boost so I don't see Frost's final form being that strong.

Now, see we have run into the problem that I was expecting to run into. Piccolo goes from 0.09->2,500 from RoF to Universe 6. That is a boost of over 27,000x. I mean it certainly appears that this is what is being shown and I don't blame anybody for thinking that but it just seems ridiculous to me that he could have gotten that kind of boost. Since this deduction is based solely on his performance against Frost, I think we can look a little deeper into his fight with Frost to get some answers.

As far as Dragon Ball Super is concerned, the sky is the limit in terms of the difference between a character in a heavily weakened state and their max power. Examples are:
-After Golden Freeza is heavily weakened, Vegeta is able to deflect a ki blast from him in his Base Form.
-Jiren after being heavily weakened, despite being far superior to SSBKKx20 Goku and an improved SSBE Vegeta at max power, he is overpowered by regular SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza. The drop from being >>SSBKKx20/SSBE to being ~SSJ is monumentally large.

Both of these drops in power are objectively enormous and at the very least 1000x weaker than their max power. Now, if we deduce that Frost is weakened to a similar degree to Freeza and Jiren were, then his power he had against Piccolo would seem more reasonable and bring down Piccolo's seemingly enormous boost.

So if we apply this to Frost here(sticking with your numbers to prevent any confusion):

Frost (Final Form): 80,000
Goku (SS): 135,000
Piccolo: 6(weaker than Frost but able to close the gap with the makankosappo)
Frost (Extremely Tired): 8(saying atleast 1/1000th of max power like the two examples)

This way, Piccolo going from 0.09 ->6 is a 67x boost and pretty in line with the boost he gained leading up to the Android Arc, and seems more reasonable than a 27,000x boost.

Now, this may seem a bit extreme of a drop and it might be, but it makes sense to me.
Actually you're correct, I would probably put Piccolo at like a 5 or 6, and Final Form Frost at 30,000, and him tired at maybe 9. I put Goku and Vegeta as high as I did because, while they aren't getting stronger at the same rate, they still went in the ROSAT for 3 years, they had to have gotten quite a large boost. The lowest I could see them being is 2,000, though I still feel 2,700 is the best imo, considering how many times everyone's gotten stronger from just 1 year, let alone 3 years, despite getting stronger at a slower pace.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:05 am

Something I've been meaning to bring up- is it just me, or did Good Buu's head tentacle get longer after he got stronger?
Image
Image
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:40 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Something I've been meaning to bring up- is it just me, or did Good Buu's head tentacle get longer after he got stronger?
Interesting, when he absorbed Gotenks on the past we could say he was mimicking SSJ3 hair by having a bigger antenna :lol:
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:48 pm

Noah wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Something I've been meaning to bring up- is it just me, or did Good Buu's head tentacle get longer after he got stronger?
Interesting, when he absorbed Gotenks on the past we could say he was mimicking SSJ3 hair by having a bigger antenna :lol:
If his tentacle getting longer is actually intentional, rather than a case of the anime being off-model, that would pretty much confirm what was implied in the Buu arc about his head tentacle's length being proportionate to his power.

Fat Buu: head tentacle stops halfway down his head
Image
Pure Buu: a little longer
Image
Image
Super Buu: goes past to his shoulders to his upper back (note that he's super tall)
Image
Image
South Kaioshin Buu: reaches his waist (note that he's bending his knees)
Image
Gotenks Buu: just about reaches his knees:
Image
Gohan Buu: goes past his knees
Image
Image
Interestingly, base Super Buu's head tentacle seems to change size halfway through the Gotenks fight and consistently stays that length for the rest of the series, so maybe that's when Toriyama decided to use that particular barometer?
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:50 pm

Well I don't know about anyone else, but "the length of Boo's headtacle indicates his strength" is DEFINITELY part of my head-canon now.

Whaddya know, Super was actually useful for once.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:58 pm

Kaboom wrote:Well I don't know about anyone else, but "the length of Boo's headtacle indicates his strength" is DEFINITELY part of my head-canon now.
Oh, that's mine too! Nice observation, RandomGuy96
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:36 pm

Kaboom wrote:Well I don't know about anyone else, but "the length of Boo's headtacle indicates his strength" is DEFINITELY part of my head-canon now.

Whaddya know, Super was actually useful for once.
My biggest reason for suspecting it's true is that it just seems like something Toriyama would do.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:37 pm

Yep. Definitely adopting this headcanon now.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:50 am

That has always been part of mine tbh.

@RG96 is there any difference between Fat Boo, Good Boo, and Mr Boo's tentacles? I think this might say a lot about wheter Mr Boo regained Fat Boo's power or not.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:53 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:That has always been part of mine tbh.

@RG96 is there any difference between Fat Boo, Good Boo, and Mr Boo's tentacles? I think this might say a lot about wheter Mr Boo regained Fat Boo's power or not.
I don't think those three are drawn any differently.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:44 am

It also reiterates the fact Super Boo > Kid Boo ;)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:53 pm

How strong was Dabura compared to the Super Saiyans at the time?

He was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan but you guys believe he was weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta correct?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:46 pm

Bullza wrote:How strong was Dabura compared to the Super Saiyans at the time?

He was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan but you guys believe he was weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta correct?
He's weaker than SSJ Gohan too, though not by much. Gohan had the upperhand when they fought hand to hand, and even when Dabra started to use magic Gohan was still holding his own.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:52 pm

Bullza wrote:How strong was Dabura compared to the Super Saiyans at the time?
I'm trying out this experimental thing where Gohan was Super Saiyan 1 in the manga (because he was drawn as one, 'nuff said) and Super Saiyan 2 in the anime (because Toei added extra stuff to say he was), but Dabra's power is the same in either version.

SS Gohan: 3,400
-- SS2 Gohan: 6,000
SS Vegeta: 3,600
-- SS2 Vegeta: 7,200
SS Goku: 4,500

Dabra: 4,000

So in the manga Gohan is fighting uphill mostly because he's outclassed in power, can't or won't go SS2 for whatever reason, and his skills are too rusty to make up for it. In the anime, he is using SS2 and is noticeably stronger than Dabra but just... sucks. Meanwhile, Vegeta would have a super-easy win with SS2, and Goku doesn't even need it. Fitting with the both of them dismissing Dabra as a non-threat, despite being on a general "Cell level" and even stronger than they initially thought.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:57 am

Well in the Dragon Ball Super manga Trunks was losing against Dabura as a Super Saiyan and at that point he had learned to master the Z Sword. He wasn't even that overwhelmed when Trunks turned Super Saiyan 2 either so it seems like it would be a stretch for Dabura to be too weak.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:41 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Something I've been meaning to bring up- is it just me, or did Good Buu's head tentacle get longer after he got stronger?
Image
Image
This is actually a nice catch.

I wonder. The antenna of Slim Boo is shorter than Buutenks so would that mean he's weaker than him then?
Bullza wrote:How strong was Dabura compared to the Super Saiyans at the time?

He was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan but you guys believe he was weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta correct?
No. As Daizenshuu confirmed and Super reconfirmed again, Dabura is Super Saiyan 2 tier.

Dabura: 5,000

Gohan: 56
- Super Saiyan: 2,800
- Super Saiyan 2: 5,600

Goku/Vegeta: 75
- Super Saiyan: 3,750
- Super Saiyan 2: 7,500

Future Trunks (Super flashback): 70
- Super Saiyan: 3,500
- Super Saiyan 2: 7,000

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