Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:12 am

ZombieVito wrote: You can still feel a close approximation of a fighters power even while they are suppressed if you are skilled enough.

Kuririn, Ginyu and Korin did it.

Gohan flat out tells them Tagoma is on par with him at the beginning of E22. Piccolo still decides to fight alone and weighted. It's obviously that:

SS Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma >> Piccolo >>>> Tagoma (Gohan's estimate) ~ Base Gohan.

Pretty clear in the episode IMO.
That requires seeing one in action though. Kuririn, Ginyu and Korin all saw the characters they gauged fighting and had a estimation. Beerus only poked Goku.

That's true. I've just watched the episode and Gohan does tell the others Tagoma is probably on pair with him. Though it might be the case Piccolo was underestimating Tagoma (He also underestimated Raditz and the Anime features him dashing on Dabra despite the fact he's obviously outmatched) given how the majority of the evidence points toward Gohan being stronger than Piccolo. Gohan even asks Piccolo and the others to step down twice when he's about to fight (Once when he's about to fight Shisami, the other when he's about to fight Ginyu), what implies he's the strongest of the Z Fighters.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:24 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: That requires seeing one in action though. Kuririn, Ginyu and Korin all saw the characters they gauged fighting and had a estimation. Beerus only poked Goku.

That's true. I've just watched the episode and Gohan does tell the others Tagoma is probably on pair with him. Though it might be the case Piccolo was underestimating Tagoma (He also underestimated Raditz and the Anime features him dashing on Dabra despite the fact he's obviously outmatched) given how the majority of the evidence points toward Gohan being stronger than Piccolo. Gohan even asks Piccolo and the others to step down twice when he's about to fight (Once when he's about to fight Shisami, the other when he's about to fight Ginyu), what implies he's the strongest of the Z Fighters.
Well, Gohan was planning to turn Ultimate but couldn't and turns Super Saiyan instead.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:33 am

He did fight a bit in Base before trying to go Ultimate. Though that could be Toei padding the hell out of the fight like they always do.

Honestly, i don't really like messing with Toei's stuff when it comes to power scaling. They make X character strong, and the next episode he's having trouble with some fodder for action's sake.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:20 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:He did fight a bit in Base before trying to go Ultimate. Though that could be Toei padding the hell out of the fight like they always do.

Honestly, i don't really like messing with Toei's stuff when it comes to power scaling. They make X character strong, and the next episode he's having trouble with some fodder for action's sake.
He did and Ginyu called him a disappointment and his power puny.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:33 pm

Still did better than Piccolo though, who got tanked and two shoted against the far weaker Tagoma.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 pm

I've been digging through the old Kanzentai Daizenshuu translations for nuggets of info. Here are some tidbits about Fat Buu that I've never seen brought up:

From Daizenshuu 2's Adventure History, next to a picture of SS3 Goku during his fight with Fat Buu, recounting volume 40:
Goku's ultimate transformation, Super Saiyan 3! Its power can fight evenly with even Majin Buu.
From Daizenshuu 7's Character Dictionary:
Buu, Majin
A magical being created by the wizard Bibidi
History: He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai-Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened. Afterwards he was sealed away by Bibidi, and many centuries passed. In the year Age 774, his seal was broken by Bibidi’s son Babidi, and he was once again resurrected as a fearsome majin. Though he befriended Mister Satan for a time, afterwards he changed into an evil Buu. This evil Buu powered up by successively absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. In his battle against Vegetto, the good portion inside him was cut off, and he transformed into his original form, the pure Buu. In the end, he was annihilated by a Super Genki-Dama collected from the ki of all humanity. Meanwhile, the good Buu came to live with Mister Satan, and changed his name to Mister Buu.
So Fat Buu is solidly on SS3 Goku's level and slightly weaker than Pure Buu, if there was any ambiguity.

I'm also curious about this line from Daizenshuu 2's Battle Guide, concerning Gotenks and Buu's fight in the ROSAT:
Gotenks attacks Buu with a level of techniques never seen before.
Depending on what wording was used for "level of techniques" ("techniques" just seems to be a synonym for power in other parts of this book), that could be confirmation that SS Gotenks was stronger than SS3 Goku... though I don't imagine Herms is in the mood to clarify yet another Buu strength tidbit...
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:14 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Honestly, i don't really like messing with Toei's stuff when it comes to power scaling. They make X character strong, and the next episode he's having trouble with some fodder for action's sake.
Examples?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:47 am

Besides the il manga legendario, is there anything else that implies Grade 4 is above an x50 multiplier.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:11 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Besides the il manga legendario, is there anything else that implies Grade 4 is above an x50 multiplier.
Nope. None at all

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:Examples?
Kuririn stalemating SSJB Goku on a beam struggle comes to mind. Other examples are Goku fighting evenly with a rusty Gohan despite being established as >>> SSJ3 Gotenks before, Kuririn holding his own with Cell, Gohan with Freeza on Namek, etc.
ekrolo2 wrote:Besides the il manga legendario, is there anything else that implies Grade 4 is above an x50 multiplier.
No, not really. In fact, the guide that labeled the Grade forms says "Grade 4" doesn't raise one's power or something similiar.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I've been digging through the old Kanzentai Daizenshuu translations for nuggets of info. Here are some tidbits about Fat Buu that I've never seen brought up:

From Daizenshuu 2's Adventure History, next to a picture of SS3 Goku during his fight with Fat Buu, recounting volume 40:
Goku's ultimate transformation, Super Saiyan 3! Its power can fight evenly with even Majin Buu.
From Daizenshuu 7's Character Dictionary:
Buu, Majin
A magical being created by the wizard Bibidi
History: He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai-Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened. Afterwards he was sealed away by Bibidi, and many centuries passed. In the year Age 774, his seal was broken by Bibidi’s son Babidi, and he was once again resurrected as a fearsome majin. Though he befriended Mister Satan for a time, afterwards he changed into an evil Buu. This evil Buu powered up by successively absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. In his battle against Vegetto, the good portion inside him was cut off, and he transformed into his original form, the pure Buu. In the end, he was annihilated by a Super Genki-Dama collected from the ki of all humanity. Meanwhile, the good Buu came to live with Mister Satan, and changed his name to Mister Buu.
So Fat Buu is solidly on SS3 Goku's level and slightly weaker than Pure Buu, if there was any ambiguity.

I'm also curious about this line from Daizenshuu 2's Battle Guide, concerning Gotenks and Buu's fight in the ROSAT:
Gotenks attacks Buu with a level of techniques never seen before.
Depending on what wording was used for "level of techniques" ("techniques" just seems to be a synonym for power in other parts of this book), that could be confirmation that SS Gotenks was stronger than SS3 Goku... though I don't imagine Herms is in the mood to clarify yet another Buu strength tidbit...
Good find, RG. But are you sure Boo's bio is talking about Pure Boo being somewhat stronger than Fatso? The way it's worded seems like it's talking about South Kaioshin Boo, not Pure Boo.

Plus, do you mind giving some examples of techniques being synonyms with power in the Daizenshuus?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Good find, RG. But are you sure Boo's bio is talking about Pure Boo being somewhat stronger than Fatso? The way it's worded seems like it's talking about South Kaioshin Boo, not Pure Boo.

Plus, do you mind giving some examples of techniques being synonyms with power in the Daizenshuus?
It doesn't mention any effect of the South Kaioshin absorption but says that the Grand Kaioshin absorption made him slightly weaker. The wording means it can't be referring to the South Kaioshin Buu because it never established that Buu as the subject of the sentence. Rather, it says the net result of the events was that the original Buu got slightly weaker, i.e. he turned from Pure Buu to Fat Buu.

We also know logically that it cannot be referring to South Kaioshin Buu, because South Kaioshin Buu is stronger than Super Buu, who himself is a lot stronger than Fat Buu, therefore Fat Buu would be far more than "somewhat" weaker than South Kaioshin Buu. Also, Fat Buu being only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu matches the other tidbit about Fat Buu being about even with SS3 Goku, as well as the fight between Mr. Buu and Pure Buu (assuming the has Fat Buu's power given how the split went differently this time; he is basically treated as the same character complete with Goku and Vegeta wondering if he'll produce a Grey Buu) where the former can somewhat hold his own for a while.

I don't feel like diving through those old translations again but here's an example from the manga:

Chapter: 228 (DBZ 34), P9.2
Context: while fighting Vegeta and losing
Goku: “It figures...He’s still just joking around, yet he’s still surpassing me in speed and technique.”
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:46 am

As far as Gohan being called the most powerful by Tagoma, he could've just deduced that based on Gohan being the one to step up to fight Shisami.
I'm not sure if there's any implication that Base Gohan specifically was being referred to as the strongest, just Gohan in general.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:02 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Kuririn stalemating SSJB Goku on a beam struggle comes to mind. Other examples are Goku fighting evenly with a rusty Gohan despite being established as >>> SSJ3 Gotenks before,
Goku was very clearly holding back. It was a matter of intimidating Kururin because there would be intimidating opponents in the ToP.

That scene of Goku vs Gohan is not something that should really be considered. First of all, it was a gag scene and wasn't meant to be taken seriously, and second it is a casual sparring session with his son there's no reason why he would be going all out. Even if you insist upon considering this scene despite it not being meant to be taken seriously, Goku literally admitted to holding back. Gohan accused Goku of holding back, and Goku admitted to it. They fight evenly in Base form as Goku admits to holding back, then each go SSJ and they continue to fight evenly. Obviously Goku was holding back in both iterations of the fight if he fought in Base, fought evenly, admitted to holding back, and then continued to fight evenly.
Kuririn holding his own with Cell, Gohan with Freeza on Namek, etc.
This was a discussion about the DBS anime power scaling so this is kind of irrelevant.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:06 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Bullza wrote:If he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga then why did he not have the sparks?
Probably to emphasize his weakness, It's not the first time in the manga the aura of a SS2 is drawn without sparks, and he does have the SS2-appropriate hair as shown by the character sketches for the second Broly movie.
There is? I can't recall any instance of it being without lightning.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:39 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:There is? I can't recall any instance of it being without lightning.
There's a few odd panels here and there, usually when the character is either drawn at an extreme distance, momentarily powered down, or something like that.

You could probably count the number of such panels on one hand. Not even comparable to a standing SS2 aura lacking the trademark sparks for an entire chapter or fight, like would supposedly be the case with Gohan.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:48 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Bullza wrote:If he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga then why did he not have the sparks?
Probably to emphasize his weakness, It's not the first time in the manga the aura of a SS2 is drawn without sparks, and he does have the SS2-appropriate hair as shown by the character sketches for the second Broly movie.
There is? I can't recall any instance of it being without lightning.
Goku going SS2 against Yakon is the one that immediately comes to mind.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:18 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Does anyone have the various anime statements where Kid Boo is touted as above Super Boo saved anywhere?
You mean anime-only stuff?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:19 pm

Noah wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Does anyone have the various anime statements where Kid Boo is touted as above Super Boo saved anywhere?
You mean anime-only stuff?
Yep. Anything will do.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:59 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Noah wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Does anyone have the various anime statements where Kid Boo is touted as above Super Boo saved anywhere?
You mean anime-only stuff?
Yep. Anything will do.
There are two. One occurs while SS2 Goku is fighting Pure Buu:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The other is right before Goku and Vegeta fight him. I think it's Elder Kaioshin who calls him "the original, most powerful Buu."

Neither really make any sense even in their own contexts, because in both cases the power Buu was actually outputting for people to sense were explicitly below SS2 Goku, not even getting into the issue of his fights.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:14 am

What if you could make your own power increases for SSJ in its vanilla state? How far would the grades, numbered and colored forms go, with regards to their full power as well?
Grade II: 1.25x
Grade III: 1.5625x

SSJ2: 2.5x
SSJ3: 6.25x

SSJ God: 10x
SSJ Blue: 100x
I started with something above the unit of transformation for the grades and squared it. I did the same for twice the amount in the numbered ones and 4 times more with the colored forms. Since I wanted to make it less complex the more I went up in tiers, and because they're not far off from what they used to be, I think that these are a solid interpretation of an otherwise growing form. A few numbers are a bit mouthful, so I decided to tinker with them, knowing full well how I started. I'll include the different states as a bonus.
Super Saiyan: 1x
Grade II: 1.25x
Grade III: 1.6x
Full Power: 2x
SSJ2: 2.5x
SSJ3: 6.4x
Ultimate: 8x
SSJ God: 10x
SSJ Blue: 100x
While SSJ2 felt like a tremendous increase over SSJ on Gohan in the Cell Games, it would prove to be of a smaller amount in the following arcs, perhaps due to Goku being already at full power. Super Saiyan Blue is shown full too.

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