Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:36 am

How about these (power levels with comments):

Androids and Cell

[spoiler]SSJ2 Gohan: 2'400'000k < this is the level that he trashed full power perfect cell with.
Halved SSJ2: 1'800'000k < half of his transformation's increase over the previous one.
SSJ Gohan: 1'200'000k < upon facing perfect cell before he transformed into the next.

Post Zenkai Perfect Cell (potentially): 2'400'000k < he could have doubled his power.
Post Zenkai Energy-less Perfect Cell: 1'800'000k < regeneration may have taken a hit.

Full Power Perfect Cell: 1'920'000k < potential power that he could have without damage.
Power Weighted P. Cell: 1'536'000k < one step below full power with increased strength.
Perfect Cell versus Goku: 1'200'000k < he would increase his speed to surpass gohan's.
Perfect Cell versus Trunks: 960'000k < this could be a cell junior at half of full power cell.

Full Power SSJ Goku: 1'200'000k < without tinkering with this number to make him weaker.
Halfway to Full Power: 900'000k < his regular super saiyan power as shown at Korin's place.
Post RoSaT SSJ Goku: 600'000k < same level as the others for them to not be surprised by it.

Cell Games SSJ Vegeta: 960'000k < remember the level of a cell junior going up against him.
Grade II SSJ Vegeta: 768'000k < above semi perfect cell's full power after he takes damage.
Post RoSat SSJ Vegeta: 600'000k < he is the same as goku when emerging from that room.

Grade III SSJ Trunks: 960'000k < not feeling the idea of expanding upon his numbers.
Post RoSaT SSJ Trunks: 600'000k < not going to tinker with this to make him weaker.

Semi-Perfect Cell (losing 18): 960'000k < he has reverted from a full power perfect cell.
Semi-Perfect Cell (potentially): 768'000k < full power in case he hadn't been damaged.
Semi-Perfect Cell versus SSJ: 600'000k < he is at about half of perfect cell against goku.

Post RoSaT Piccolo: 768'000k < below super saiyan vegeta and a cell junior.
Fused with Kami: 384'000k < he's equal to what I have for android seventeen.

Full Power Imperfect Cell: 480'000k < at a similar level to android sixteen.
Imperfect Cell vs Piccolo: 300'000k < above the super saiyans of then.

Pre RoSaT Super Saiyans: 240'000k < just to give you an idea.[/spoiler]

You can tinker with these by adding and subtracting or by multiplying them with 1.024. I used increases of 1.25, 1.28, 1.6 and 2 times their numbers after all.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:36 pm

What multiplier would you guys give to Super Saiyan 4, God and Blue?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:39 pm

Noah wrote:What multiplier would you guys give to Super Saiyan 4, God and Blue?
SSG x500
SSJ4 x500 (minimum)
SSB x 5000
SSJ4 Full Power X1000 to unlimited potential

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:19 pm

Noah wrote:What multiplier would you guys give to Super Saiyan 4, God and Blue?
SSJ4 was stated on GT Perfect Files to be a potential unlock, so no multiplier

SSJ God and Blue are 25x and 37.5x in my book. SSJ multipliers on manga seem to be nerfed due to the whole Black situation.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ahill1 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:21 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Well, Freeza did a lot of power ups without transforming. Why can't Cold?
Because it wasn't implied to be the case with Cold. I go with the "always assume FP unless stated/implied otherwise", unless you think Cold being a good help against Goku ssj is an implication of him being suppressed there... meh.
and was never shown to power up against until going Full Power.
He did a silent power up before facing Cell. Whether he faced Cell with 50% or less, he had to have powered up, otherwise you'd be telling me Goku fought Cell in the warm up with his resting state, which was described by Piccolo as an "everyday level" -- indicating it's piss weak. Vegeta also didn't notice being surpassed until Goku displayed his 1/2 at Karin, also indicating Goku's resting state is < him (which should be already clear by it being it being described as an everyday level).

Piccolo and the others being shocked at it doesn't mean it has to surpass Cell's warm up level... Cell's warm up level was still pretty relevant at that point, only being surpassed by an useless power -- SSJG3 -- so surely displaying such power without even using a flawed form would warrant those reactions.
Yeah, i know Recoome was playing with Vegeta. But once he got serious it didn't seem like he was worlds above him, at best "A world". The way Piccolo talked about him it sounded like Shin can one shit him IMO.
Fair enough. Could increase Shin to 4.5, but that'd make him too close to Gohan ssj. It's tough.
Gohan slacked off for 7 years, though. His stamina should be pretty shitty at this point. Even with such a power advantage he would be screwed against a fighter like Dabura who has pretty useful techniques. Even Dabura seems to notice that when he calls Gohan trash and earlier tries to avoid head to head fight and tries to only use his techniques in Gohan.
Dabura could of used those techniques as a way to get the job done faster. But yeah, maybe Dabura being = Gohan in power and having the advantages due to those techniques works better, but that'd make Dabura = CGs Goku... seems kind of pushing it imo.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:45 am

ahill1 wrote: Because it wasn't implied to be the case with Cold. I go with the "always assume FP unless stated/implied otherwise", unless you think Cold being a good help against Goku ssj is an implication of him being suppressed there... meh.
Well, he was supposed to be as strong as suppressed Freeza but at the same time useful to FP Freeza, so i assume he can.

Damn, the anime was much better there. Everybody was like "OMG There is Freeza and a even larger Ki!!!"
He did a silent power up before facing Cell. Whether he faced Cell with 50% or less, he had to have powered up, otherwise you'd be telling me Goku fought Cell in the warm up with his resting state, which was described by Piccolo as an "everyday level" -- indicating it's piss weak. Vegeta also didn't notice being surpassed until Goku displayed his 1/2 at Karin, also indicating Goku's resting state is < him (which should be already clear by it being it being described as an everyday level).

Piccolo and the others being shocked at it doesn't mean it has to surpass Cell's warm up level... Cell's warm up level was still pretty relevant at that point, only being surpassed by an useless power -- SSJG3 -- so surely displaying such power without even using a flawed form would warrant those reactions.
Or he powered down to his Warm up level.

They didn't know Goku was so strong only as a SSJ, they only sensed his Ki.
Dabura could of used those techniques as a way to get the job done faster. But yeah, maybe Dabura being = Gohan in power and having the advantages due to those techniques works better, but that'd make Dabura = CGs Goku... seems kind of pushing it imo.
Or you can raise Gohan to Cell level, it helps to give more space between Gohan and Piccolo to place Shin as well.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:55 am

Noah wrote:What multiplier would you guys give to Super Saiyan 4, God and Blue?
3,200; 10,000; 20,000.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:23 pm

Here are my power levels for the whole Mecha Frieza - Android - Cell arc:


Mecha Frieza Arc

[spoiler]Mecha Frieza - 150,000,000

King Cold - 25,000,000

Future Trunks - 3,400,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 170,000,000

Goku - 3,600,000
SSJ Goku - 180,000,000

Vegeta - 3,000,000

Piccolo - 2,700,000

Gohan - 300,000

Krillin - 150,000

Tien - 100,000

Yamcha - 70,000

Chiaotzu - 20,000[/spoiler]


Android Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 4,500,000
SSJ Goku - 225,000,000
SSJ Sick Goku - 180,000,000

Vegeta - 4,600,000
SSJ Vegeta - 230,000,000

Future Trunks - 4,000,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 200,000,000

Weighted Piccolo - 142,000,000
Piccolo - 180,000,000

Gohan - 3,000,000

Krillin - 260,000

Tien - 130,000

Yamcha - 90,000

Chiaotzu - 25,000

Android 19 - 100,000,000
Android 19 Post Absorbtion - 125,000,000

Android 20 - 120,000,000
Android 20 Post Absorbtion - 150,000,000

Android 18 - 300,000,000

Android 17 - 360,000,000

Android 16 - 540,000,000[/spoiler]


Cell Arc

[spoiler]Weighted Piccolo - 284,000,000
Piccolo - 360,000,000

Android 18 - 300,000,000

Android 17 - 360,000,000

Android 16 - 540,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 250,000,000
Imperfect Cell (post humans) - 540,000,000

Semiperfect Cell - 750,000,000
Full Semiperfect Cell - 900,000,000

Warming Up Perfect Cell - 1,200,000,000
Initial Perfect Cell - 1,600,000,000

Vegeta - 16,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 800,000,000
ASSJ Vegeta - 1,200,000,000

Future Trunks - 15,000,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 750,000,000
ASSJ Future Trunks - 1,125,000,000
USSJ Future Trunks - 1,700,000,000[/spoiler]


Cell Games Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 60,000,000
50% SSJ Goku - 1,500,000,000
SSJ Goku - 3,000,000,000
Tired SSJ Goku - 1,000,000,000

Gohan - 72,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,600,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 7,200,000,000
Angry SSJ2 Gohan - 8,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (vs Goku) - 3,250,000,000
Tired Perfect Cell - 2,000,000,000
Perfect Cell (vs Gohan) - 3,500,000,000
Full Perfect Cell - 5,000,000,000
Bulky Perfect Cell - 6,000,000,000
Super Perfect Cell - 7,000,000,000

Cell Jr - 2,000,000,000

Vegeta - 36,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 1,800,000,000

Future Trunks - 34,000,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 1,700,000,000

Weighted Piccolo - 1,100,000,000
Piccolo - 1,400,000,000

Android 16 - 540,000,000

Krillin - 260,000

Tien - 135,000

Yamcha - 90,000[/spoiler]

Put your thoughts about them.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:06 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:Put your thoughts about them.
I'd place Gohan at least pretty close to one million based on the implications of Zenkai Gohan > Vegtea @1st form Freeza back on Namek.

Wasn't Sick Goku supposed to be > Yardrat Goku? Tenshinhan was completely astonished by Goku's ki even when he was standing:
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”
There are other two or three quotes, but this is the only one before Goku starts fighting.

Piccolo thought Sick Goku was miserable:
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
And he manhandled 20 post as good as, if not even better, than Goku manhandled 19 pre. He's definitevely stronger than Yardrat Goku IMO.

Piccolo thought #20 post was one of the estimated Androids, so he should have a comfortable advantage over Trunks instead of being below him:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
I think Weighted Kamiccolo and #18 are too far from 17. #16 grouped them all together when Kamiccolo powered up to fight Cell:
Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6
No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”
No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.”
Maybe you could put Weighted Kamiccolo at 320-330, so he'd be rivaling both without 18 be rivaling 17.
Other than that, i really liked the list.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I'd place Gohan at least pretty close to one million based on the implications of Zenkai Gohan > Vegtea @1st form Freeza back on Namek.
I do believe Vegeta was counting on Vegeta's rage boosts, not really about his base power, and also was counting on Gohan probably having another zenkai in case he gets defeated. He said too that Gohan being stronger would raise the possibilities of winning, or something like that. It would be kind of weird for Gohan to be that close to Piccolo and 2nd Form Frieza since it was stated indirectly through the manga that Gohan was much weaker than Piccolo without the rage boost. He was also said to be 200,000 in a guidebook during the time of Frieza's battle. That could be the number he was after the zenkai, since it would be ridiculous for Gohan to be at 200,000 before it, considering that he was below 40,000 when he fought Ginyu in Goku's body, and did no battle after that before 1st Form Frieza came. It would make sense for Gohan to have a really big increase for his 3 years training. 10 times stronger would make sense, specially with his Guru boost playing at, and Goku and Piccolo as training partners.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wasn't Sick Goku supposed to be > Yardrat Goku? Tenshinhan was completely astonished by Goku's ki even when he was standing:
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”
There are other two or three quotes, but this is the only one before Goku starts fighting.

Piccolo thought Sick Goku was miserable:
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
And he manhandled 20 post as good as, if not even better, than Goku manhandled 19 pre. He's definitevely stronger than Yardrat Goku IMO.

Piccolo thought #20 post was one of the estimated Androids, so he should have a comfortable advantage over Trunks instead of being below him:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
I think I can put Piccolo at 190,000,000, making him have an advantage against the Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza arc. However, Trunks was later used as a sticking point between the Super saiyans and the Piccolo. He seems stronger than Piccolo in the Android arc based on many statements, probably he powered up a bit in his timeline, that's why he is stronger than Piccolo there.

However, in the case of Sick Goku, if Piccolo is at 190M, and Yardrat Goku is 180M, I will have to make Sick Goku at 185M to fit many things. I'd personally put Sick Goku at this stage at 190M. Equal to Piccolo. Just because Piccolo thought Sick Goku's ki was misarable doesn't really mean he is inferior to him, it's just that he displays less power than what he should have, that's why Piccolo thought Goku's ki was very weak in his sick state.
I think the reason Goku didn't manhandle 19 as good as Piccolo did against 20 is because of his sickness playing hard at him. He displays a ki stronger than his Yardrat self, but being sick makes him not fight that well with that power.
I think Weighted Kamiccolo and #18 are too far from 17. #16 grouped them all together when Kamiccolo powered up to fight Cell:
Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6
No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?”
No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.”
No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.”
Maybe you could put Weighted Kamiccolo at 320-330, so he'd be rivaling both without 18 be rivaling 17.
Other than that, i really liked the list.
Considering that in the Raditz arc it was said there's a 1,267x of difference between weighted and normal Piccolo, I use that boost through the series. Now that Piccolo before the fusion will be 190,000,000, and with a Kami boost he would be 380,000,000, then his weighted state would be around 300,000,000 (rivalling Android 18's strenght), meaning that I can also add more strenght to Imperfect Cell and the Super Saiyans as well. Android 17 will have to stay at 360,000,000, though he was equal with Piccolo mainly because of his infinite energy.

I will make an updated list later on with the new corrections.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:00 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: I do believe Vegeta was counting on Vegeta's rage boosts, not really about his base power, and also was counting on Gohan probably having another zenkai in case he gets defeated. He said too that Gohan being stronger would raise the possibilities of winning, or something like that. It would be kind of weird for Gohan to be that close to Piccolo and 2nd Form Frieza since it was stated indirectly through the manga that Gohan was much weaker than Piccolo without the rage boost. He was also said to be 200,000 in a guidebook during the time of Frieza's battle. That could be the number he was after the zenkai, since it would be ridiculous for Gohan to be at 200,000 before it, considering that he was below 40,000 when he fought Ginyu in Goku's body, and did no battle after that before 1st Form Frieza came. It would make sense for Gohan to have a really big increase for his 3 years training. 10 times stronger would make sense, specially with his Guru boost playing at, and Goku and Piccolo as training partners.
Actually i'm talking about how Gohan was portrayed as the strongest of the trio when he's about to fight Freeza by himself while Vegeta is on the grandstands praising Gohan's power.

But anyway, i don't think Vegeta is refering to a hypothetical rage/zenkai power, but Gohan's actual power. He actually mentions his latent power as a factor when he's about to fight 1st form Freeza:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…
But then the way he talks about how Gohan's zenkai made him stronger, and mentions their chances of managing something increasing:
Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P13.1
Context: after Gohan is healed by Dende
Vegeta: “Heh…Just as you’d expect of someone with Saiyan blood, after reviving his battle power has greatly risen…A-alright! Luck is turning our way just a little bit…”
Of course he's not on pair with Powered up 2nd form Freeza, but he's strong enough to Vegeta feel like they can manage something, and remember Gohan's power was steadily rising.

I don't think why he have to disregard Gohan being 200k before his Zenkai either. It can work really when Vegeta especifically comented power as a factor to Gohan and Kuririn being useful.
I think I can put Piccolo at 190,000,000, making him have an advantage against the Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza arc. However, Trunks was later used as a sticking point between the Super saiyans and the Piccolo. He seems stronger than Piccolo in the Android arc based on many statements, probably he powered up a bit in his timeline, that's why he is stronger than Piccolo there.

However, in the case of Sick Goku, if Piccolo is at 190M, and Yardrat Goku is 180M, I will have to make Sick Goku at 185M to fit many things. I'd personally put Sick Goku at this stage at 190M. Equal to Piccolo. Just because Piccolo thought Sick Goku's ki was misarable doesn't really mean he is inferior to him, it's just that he displays less power than what he should have, that's why Piccolo thought Goku's ki was very weak in his sick state.
I think the reason Goku didn't manhandle 19 as good as Piccolo did against 20 is because of his sickness playing hard at him. He displays a ki stronger than his Yardrat self, but being sick makes him not fight that well with that power.
Yeah, Piccolo ~ Sick Goku was work well with Goku's fatigue softing his blows on 19. However, Piccolo being that close to the SSJs isn't right, when the SSJs are constantly grouped together and Piccolo is out of their group. I think you can go with something like this:
SSJ Trunks (Debut): 170
SSJ Goku (Yardrat): 180
Android 20 (Post): 185
Piccolo/Sick Goku: 200
SSJ Trunks: 230
SSJ Goku: 240
SSJ Vegeta: 250
Cyborg 18: 320~350
Weighted Kamiccolo: 360
Cyborg 17: 400
Considering that in the Raditz arc it was said there's a 1,267x of difference between weighted and normal Piccolo, I use that boost through the series. Now that Piccolo before the fusion will be 190,000,000, and with a Kami boost he would be 380,000,000, then his weighted state would be around 300,000,000 (rivalling Android 18's strenght), meaning that I can also add more strenght to Imperfect Cell and the Super Saiyans as well. Android 17 will have to stay at 360,000,000, though he was equal with Piccolo mainly because of his infinite energy.
His weights seems to give him a smaller boost now, considering he rivals both Androids while suppressed. He can both on the middle of them or equal to 18 and a bit weaker than 17, depeding on how you see the 18/17 gap.


Also, i forgot to say Weighted Piccolo (Pre Kami) isn't that strong. He was suppressed as well, considering he wasn't treated as nothing special by the Androids while standing next to base Goku, and 20 said things can be insteresting with Vegeta around, implying he was the strongest there.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:22 pm

Would Mutenroshi surpass Raditz if he had trained in the Kami's Lookout?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:47 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Actually i'm talking about how Gohan was portrayed as the strongest of the trio when he's about to fight Freeza by himself while Vegeta is on the grandstands praising Gohan's power.

But anyway, i don't think Vegeta is refering to a hypothetical rage/zenkai power, but Gohan's actual power. He actually mentions his latent power as a factor when he's about to fight 1st form Freeza:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…
But then the way he talks about how Gohan's zenkai made him stronger, and mentions their chances of managing something increasing:
Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P13.1
Context: after Gohan is healed by Dende
Vegeta: “Heh…Just as you’d expect of someone with Saiyan blood, after reviving his battle power has greatly risen…A-alright! Luck is turning our way just a little bit…”
Of course he's not on pair with Powered up 2nd form Freeza, but he's strong enough to Vegeta feel like they can manage something, and remember Gohan's power was steadily rising.

I don't think why he have to disregard Gohan being 200k before his Zenkai either. It can work really when Vegeta especifically comented power as a factor to Gohan and Kuririn being useful.
Maybe a way to solve it is to put Gohan's base power at 200,000, a semi raged power at around 600,000-700,000 (already above Vegeta, but much below Frieza's 1,000,000), and a full raged power at 2,000,000 (the one he used to attack 3rd Form Frieza, who would have 2,120,000 in my view). The reason I say this is because considering that Gohan doesn't know how to control his power that much as stated through the story, he would sometimes display some of it. When he is in normal state without any sort of rage, his power would be low. When he is in an emotion of fighting back, he would make his power higher, as seen at the time of Vegeta's comment, as well as Vegeta's statement of "hide so much inner strenght that he doesn't even know it himself".

I also don't see how Gohan before the zenkai can be at 200,000 since he didn't do anything at all to get from below 40,000 when fighting Ginyu Goku to that level. I think that by the time of the beggining of the Frieza battle, Gohan would have a base power of around 50,000 and increasing, and after his first rage he probably got to 80,000 until finally getting to close to 200,000 when recieving the zenkai.

There's also the time of the guidebook for the 200,000 reading. It was around the time Frieza was in his Second Form, and published by the time Frieza was transforming to his Final Form. I think Gohan reached to 300,000 by the end of the arc (in base form only) and Krillin got to 100,000 before he was killed.
Yeah, Piccolo ~ Sick Goku was work well with Goku's fatigue softing his blows on 19. However, Piccolo being that close to the SSJs isn't right, when the SSJs are constantly grouped together and Piccolo is out of their group. I think you can go with something like this:
SSJ Trunks (Debut): 170
SSJ Goku (Yardrat): 180
Android 20 (Post): 185
Piccolo/Sick Goku: 200
SSJ Trunks: 230
SSJ Goku: 240
SSJ Vegeta: 250
Cyborg 18: 320~350
Weighted Kamiccolo: 360
Cyborg 17: 400
Yeah I agree, and that's why I said on my previous post that I was going to raise the SSJ's numbers. Future Trunks can't also be that close to Vegeta, however, since he was kicked in one blow by Android 18, while Vegeta managed to still be standing until the end. In my opinion, with Piccolo being at 190, Future Trunks can be at 220, Goku at 240 and Vegeta at 250. I wouldn't put Android 20 post that close since Piccolo did beat him so easily, maybe between 150-160 would work.
His weights seems to give him a smaller boost now, considering he rivals both Androids while suppressed. He can both on the middle of them or equal to 18 and a bit weaker than 17, depeding on how you see the 18/17 gap.
Also, i forgot to say Weighted Piccolo (Pre Kami) isn't that strong. He was suppressed as well, considering he wasn't treated as nothing special by the Androids while standing next to base Goku, and 20 said things can be insteresting with Vegeta around, implying he was the strongest there.
I don't know, I like to keep things consistent in order to not mess things up at other points of the list. Maybe Android 16 was talking about Piccolo's strenght, I know he was weighted, but the weights only cause lack of speed, his strenght is still in there, the speed is what cause his battle level to be lower than it should be. With that speed, he can also rival Android 18's power as well, making Piccolo rivalling both of them. There's also the fact that Android 16 never sensed a power that high before, it would obviously surprise him.

About Weighted Piccolo pre Kami, that's because of course he was suppressed, probably even less than Vegeta. It just wouldn't make sense for Piccolo's weights to lower his power that much, not to mention that if that was the case, he wouldn't be able to resist those weights, with Piccolo being at 190, I place him with his weights at 150, equal to Namek Goku and inferior to Android 20's 160 (since he needed to remove his weights to fight him).
Also Android 20 is shown to not calculate their strenghts well, that shows when he was surprised when Piccolo was stronger than he thought when he was beating him, as well as Vegeta's power.
Noah wrote:Would Mutenroshi surpass Raditz if he had trained in the Kami's Lookout?
I don't think so, maybe reaching between 800-850 based on my multipliers of training from my power level list.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:50 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Maybe a way to solve it is to put Gohan's base power at 200,000, a semi raged power at around 600,000-700,000 (already above Vegeta, but much below Frieza's 1,000,000), and a full raged power at 2,000,000 (the one he used to attack 3rd Form Frieza, who would have 2,120,000 in my view). The reason I say this is because considering that Gohan doesn't know how to control his power that much as stated through the story, he would sometimes display some of it. When he is in normal state without any sort of rage, his power would be low. When he is in an emotion of fighting back, he would make his power higher, as seen at the time of Vegeta's comment, as well as Vegeta's statement of "hide so much inner strenght that he doesn't even know it himself".

I also don't see how Gohan before the zenkai can be at 200,000 since he didn't do anything at all to get from below 40,000 when fighting Ginyu Goku to that level. I think that by the time of the beggining of the Frieza battle, Gohan would have a base power of around 50,000 and increasing, and after his first rage he probably got to 80,000 until finally getting to close to 200,000 when recieving the zenkai.

There's also the time of the guidebook for the 200,000 reading. It was around the time Frieza was in his Second Form, and published by the time Frieza was transforming to his Final Form. I think Gohan reached to 300,000 by the end of the arc (in base form only) and Krillin got to 100,000 before he was killed.
He looks kind off pissed while powering up, but i think it's more because he's serious. It still sounds plausible, though. I think something like this sounds better for Gohan:
Initial: 200
Enraged: 900
Zenkai: 400
Semi-Enraged: 900
Full Range: 1,800
Keeping the same boost for both rages and the semi-rage being half the way for it sounds good.

I think 50k is ridiculously low. Vegeta was confident on his and Kuririn's power raising until they would help him wear down his estimatives of 2nd form Freeza. Gohan getting a 10x boost from rage looks to much either, 3-4x for the boosts is more credible.

Personally i have Kuririn at 250k and Gohan by 300k, with Gohan getting to +2 millions by the end of the Arc and Kuririn a bit under 500k at best.
Yeah I agree, and that's why I said on my previous post that I was going to raise the SSJ's numbers. Future Trunks can't also be that close to Vegeta, however, since he was kicked in one blow by Android 18, while Vegeta managed to still be standing until the end. In my opinion, with Piccolo being at 190, Future Trunks can be at 220, Goku at 240 and Vegeta at 250. I wouldn't put Android 20 post that close since Piccolo did beat him so easily, maybe between 150-160 would work.
Vegeta is a pretty tough guy, so it's possible for him to take more beatdown than Trunks with both being fairly close. I think at the very least he should be closer to Vegeat than to Piccolo, considering Tenshinhan's coment on how Goku shouldn't be much different from Vegeta and Trunks, implying Vegeta and Trunks weren't much different from each other either.

Like i said before, Piccolo wondered if #20 was one of the expected Androids, implying he at least felt #20 could take down Trunks. If you analyze Piccolo's fight with #20 he has a serious look on his face and seems to be putting effort on it. Just compare Piccolo's knee on 20 to Recoome's knee on Vegeta:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Recoome has a smile on his face and send Vegeta flying, while Piccolo looks serious and Gero was only pushed a few meters. I think 185 to 200 is a bit of pushing it but it still works, considering how Gero shouldn't be a good fighter while Piccolo is one of the best martial artists of the series and is actually trying hard on his hits.
I don't know, I like to keep things consistent in order to not mess things up at other points of the list. Maybe Android 16 was talking about Piccolo's strenght, I know he was weighted, but the weights only cause lack of speed, his strenght is still in there, the speed is what cause his battle level to be lower than it should be. With that speed, he can also rival Android 18's power as well, making Piccolo rivalling both of them. There's also the fact that Android 16 never sensed a power that high before, it would obviously surprise him.

About Weighted Piccolo pre Kami, that's because of course he was suppressed, probably even less than Vegeta. It just wouldn't make sense for Piccolo's weights to lower his power that much, not to mention that if that was the case, he wouldn't be able to resist those weights, with Piccolo being at 190, I place him with his weights at 150, equal to Namek Goku and inferior to Android 20's 160 (since he needed to remove his weights to fight him).
Also Android 20 is shown to not calculate their strenghts well, that shows when he was surprised when Piccolo was stronger than he thought when he was beating him, as well as Vegeta's power.
Scouters are affected by weights though, considering how Piccolo's BP rose after he removed his weights against Raditz, and #16 made note of his power increasing after he removed his weights as well. I think the scene is pretty clear: He's know owns a power that rivals the Cyborg twins. I don't think why lowering the weights' boost can affect the rest of the list, for the rest of the series he either doesn't take them of nor they are showed to make a difference in battle anyway.

I know, i just found weird that you put the Weighted, non suppressed Piccolo we saw but not the Weighted and suppressed Piccolo and thought you missed his suppression.
Noah wrote:Would Mutenroshi surpass Raditz if he had trained in the Kami's Lookout?
He doesn't need to, he just needs to feel like himself 8)

But seriously, i doubt. Yamcha himself barely managed to surpass Raditz as his performance against his perfomance against his Saibaman implies and Roshi is already old, so i doubt he'd be able to even break a 1,000. More like Chaotsu or Yajirobe's level.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:40 am

Chiatzu was implied to be around 900 at least, wasn`t it? Kuririn makes a mention how the Saiyans are moving towards two other big energy readings in pairs and those would either be Piccolo and Gohan or Tenshinhan and Chiatzu and this was after Nappa makes a reading of numbers around 1000 and 900 and so.

And I don`t agree with the "barely managed to", unless you`re going by the "official sources" which even still isn`t a considerable gap. The Saibamen are clearly used to show the previous level demostrated by Raditz was almost easily surpassed by...well, almost everone in that arena. Yamcha doesn`t have any issues defeating his and this was after the little bastards saw what would happen if they lost like the first one, so that one was likely fighting harder too.

At the very you can extrapulate Raditz as being a better fighter on a technical basis but the mentions to his name pretty much ammount to "yeah this was Raditz level and now he looks like a minion against these guys".
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:41 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: He looks kind off pissed while powering up, but i think it's more because he's serious. It still sounds plausible, though. I think something like this sounds better for Gohan:
Initial: 200
Enraged: 900
Zenkai: 400
Semi-Enraged: 900
Full Range: 1,800
Keeping the same boost for both rages and the semi-rage being half the way for it sounds good.

I think 50k is ridiculously low. Vegeta was confident on his and Kuririn's power raising until they would help him wear down his estimatives of 2nd form Freeza. Gohan getting a 10x boost from rage looks to much either, 3-4x for the boosts is more credible.

Personally i have Kuririn at 250k and Gohan by 300k, with Gohan getting to +2 millions by the end of the Arc and Kuririn a bit under 500k at best.
I guess it's not wrong for Gohan to be 200,000 before his zenkai. However in my personal list, I give him that number to around the end of the arc (300,000 being the last one he would have on Namek). Vegeta was confident on the powe raising, he knew Gohan and Krillin were getting stronger and stronger, as well as teaming up against 1st Form Frieza, and it would be weird for Gohan to jump from below 40K to 200K in less than an hour without doing any fighting. Gohan getting a x10 boost for his rages is not bad at all, it was never stated how much his boost raise.
Vegeta is a pretty tough guy, so it's possible for him to take more beatdown than Trunks with both being fairly close. I think at the very least he should be closer to Vegeat than to Piccolo, considering Tenshinhan's coment on how Goku shouldn't be much different from Vegeta and Trunks, implying Vegeta and Trunks weren't much different from each other either.

Like i said before, Piccolo wondered if #20 was one of the expected Androids, implying he at least felt #20 could take down Trunks. If you analyze Piccolo's fight with #20 he has a serious look on his face and seems to be putting effort on it. Just compare Piccolo's knee on 20 to Recoome's knee on Vegeta:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Recoome has a smile on his face and send Vegeta flying, while Piccolo looks serious and Gero was only pushed a few meters. I think 185 to 200 is a bit of pushing it but it still works, considering how Gero shouldn't be a good fighter while Piccolo is one of the best martial artists of the series and is actually trying hard on his hits.
Well, the gap between Vegeta and Recoome was a x1.3333, since I have Recoome at 40,000, that's the same gap between Vegeta and Cui, and one can kill the other instantly. The gap between Piccolo and 20, however, is much smaller with 20's 160,000,000, so it still works either way.
Scouters are affected by weights though, considering how Piccolo's BP rose after he removed his weights against Raditz, and #16 made note of his power increasing after he removed his weights as well. I think the scene is pretty clear: He's know owns a power that rivals the Cyborg twins. I don't think why lowering the weights' boost can affect the rest of the list, for the rest of the series he either doesn't take them of nor they are showed to make a difference in battle anyway.

I know, i just found weird that you put the Weighted, non suppressed Piccolo we saw but not the Weighted and suppressed Piccolo and thought you missed his suppression.
Android 16 only made note of his power increasing because he was comparing the Piccolo from now (fused) to the previous Piccolo that Android 17 defeated instantly, and was surprised by how powerful he has become.
Android 16's ki measures are not the same as scouters, we don't know if it works the same as them. 16 could've been measuring the inner strenght Piccolo had with no problem at all.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:55 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: I guess it's not wrong for Gohan to be 200,000 before his zenkai. However in my personal list, I give him that number to around the end of the arc (300,000 being the last one he would have on Namek). Vegeta was confident on the powe raising, he knew Gohan and Krillin were getting stronger and stronger, as well as teaming up against 1st Form Frieza, and it would be weird for Gohan to jump from below 40K to 200K in less than an hour without doing any fighting. Gohan getting a x10 boost for his rages is not bad at all, it was never stated how much his boost raise.
I don't think Kuririn and Gohan receiving such a huge boost is wrong, after all Vegeta went from not much different from Monster Zarbon to strong enough to face 1st form Freeza.
And yeah, Gohan's rage boost being 3-4x is more a personal opinion of mine. It can be anywhere within the conditions of boosting him from below Vegeta to close to Initial 2nd form Freeza.
Well, the gap between Vegeta and Recoome was a x1.3333, since I have Recoome at 40,000, that's the same gap between Vegeta and Cui, and one can kill the other instantly. The gap between Piccolo and 20, however, is much smaller with 20's 160,000,000, so it still works either way.
The problem here is that Piccolo wondered if #20 was one of the expected Androids Trunks warned them, implying he was stronger than him. I think 1.1x can work really well here, Zarbon wasn't able to touch Vegeta with this gap and Gero shouldn't have any fighter hability as a gezer, plus Gero implied he and 19 can lose energy by geting beaten, making the situation even worse for him even with a small gap:
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”
Android 16 only made note of his power increasing because he was comparing the Piccolo from now (fused) to the previous Piccolo that Android 17 defeated instantly, and was surprised by how powerful he has become.
Android 16's ki measures are not the same as scouters, we don't know if it works the same as them. 16 could've been measuring the inner strenght Piccolo had with no problem at all.
I don't see how it would be different. 16's scouter is supposed to measure is battle ability. If you are slow, you shouldn't have the same battle ability as someone with the same brute strength but faster.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:23 pm

Noah wrote:Would Mutenroshi surpass Raditz if he had trained in the Kami's Lookout?
Of course he would have. Super confirmed that without a doubt.

How those these look?

Future Trunks: 3,400,000
-- Super Saiyan: 170,000,000

Future Gohan: 3,200,000
-- Super Saiyan: 160,000,000

Future Vegeta: 3,100,000
-- Super Saiyan: 155,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I don't think Kuririn and Gohan receiving such a huge boost is wrong, after all Vegeta went from not much different from Monster Zarbon to strong enough to face 1st form Freeza.
And yeah, Gohan's rage boost being 3-4x is more a personal opinion of mine. It can be anywhere within the conditions of boosting him from below Vegeta to close to Initial 2nd form Freeza.
The thing with Vegeta probably has to do with the nap he had, which might have increased his strenght, as well as the probability that this zenkai was continuous. Gohan and Krillin didn't do much fights for their power to be that high. If that's the case, then against Ginyu in Goku's body they should've been at 100,000 already. Anyway, it doesn't matter if Gohan and Krillin are either around 40-50k or around 200-300k at the beggining of the Frieza arc, both answers can be correct, and since the former is not contradicting and seems to have more sense (at least for me) then I go for it.
The problem here is that Piccolo wondered if #20 was one of the expected Androids Trunks warned them, implying he was stronger than him. I think 1.1x can work really well here, Zarbon wasn't able to touch Vegeta with this gap and Gero shouldn't have any fighter hability as a gezer, plus Gero implied he and 19 can lose energy by geting beaten, making the situation even worse for him even with a small gap:
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”
Yeah I do have Piccolo stronger than Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza arc, Piccolo is at 190M, while Trunks is at 170M. But Piccolo also wondered if he was stronger than what he should be too, and was also aware that they can increase their strenght by absorbing energy. It's possible that I can change it for Android 20 to be at least on par with Future Trunks or probably still below it.
I don't see how it would be different. 16's scouter is supposed to measure is battle ability. If you are slow, you shouldn't have the same battle ability as someone with the same brute strength but faster.
We don't know how is Android 16's scouter technologies work in comparison to the saiyans/Frieza scouters. It's possible that Android 16 could've gauge both the strenght and speed, the weighted speed rivalling Android 18, while the strenght rivalling Android 17's. That would be good for rivalling both androids.
ZombieVito wrote: How those these look?

Future Trunks: 3,400,000
-- Super Saiyan: 170,000,000

Future Gohan: 3,200,000
-- Super Saiyan: 160,000,000

Future Vegeta: 3,100,000
-- Super Saiyan: 155,000,000
Those are the same numbers I have as well, I don't know Future Vegeta's strenght, but we can asume he has that level of power, weaker than Future Gohan, but stronger than what he was on the Mecha Frieza arc (I have him at 3,000,000 there).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:54 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: The thing with Vegeta probably has to do with the nap he had, which might have increased his strenght, as well as the probability that this zenkai was continuous. Gohan and Krillin didn't do much fights for their power to be that high. If that's the case, then against Ginyu in Goku's body they should've been at 100,000 already. Anyway, it doesn't matter if Gohan and Krillin are either around 40-50k or around 200-300k at the beggining of the Frieza arc, both answers can be correct, and since the former is not contradicting and seems to have more sense (at least for me) then I go for it.
Gohan and Kuririn's power were increasing in the time between the Ginyu fight and the Freeza fight as well, though. I don't buy Vegeta's nap increasing his power anyway, but that's another think.
And yeah, they can be anywhere 40-300k. Pesonally i think the 200-300k is better because Vegeta mentioned power, but anything above Monster Zarbon (Who wasn't considered useful, mind you) work. Vegeta only needs Kuririn to spam attacks and Gohan to get enraged to help him. The way Vegeta blasts 2nd form Freeza seems to imply Vegeta had sneak attacks in mind.
Yeah I do have Piccolo stronger than Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza arc, Piccolo is at 190M, while Trunks is at 170M. But Piccolo also wondered if he was stronger than what he should be too, and was also aware that they can increase their strenght by absorbing energy. It's possible that I can change it for Android 20 to be at least on par with Future Trunks or probably still below it.
I don't think 20 being on pair with Trunks can work. It's pretty plain: Piccolo wouldn't consider 20 one of the expected Androids if he can't defeat Trunks.
We don't know how is Android 16's scouter technologies work in comparison to the saiyans/Frieza scouters. It's possible that Android 16 could've gauge both the strenght and speed, the weighted speed rivalling Android 18, while the strenght rivalling Android 17's. That would be good for rivalling both androids.
Why he doesn't say it then? The way he says it seems to imply 18, 17 and Kamiccolo are all about the same strength. I don't see any reason to complicate this tbh.
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