Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by mamoru » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:59 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_gwRUhSrpY

Hey guys just wanted to see if you agree with my Super Saiyan God Multiplier. So I basically said that SSG was 800x Saiyan Beyond God and SSGSS Is 4000x Saiyan Beyond God and that's just lowballing. Because of Beerus's statement that 10% of SSGSS Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku. Also 10% of 4000 is 400 which is the SSJ3 multiplier so if SSG is 800x it's 2 times SSJ3 which fits quite nicely. So if SSG Goku is 20% Of SSGSS, then SSGSSS is a 5x multiplier of SSG.
Last edited by mamoru on Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:19 pm

I don't agree with any multiplier for Super Saiyan God unless there's an official source.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by mamoru » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Meshack wrote:I don't agree with any multiplier for Super Saiyan God unless there's an official source.
Bro this is my opinion and I don't think any "official" source is gonna explain the multipliers.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:42 pm

In my list Super Saiyan God is 40,000x BoG Goku's base, so a 100x multiplier of SSJ3. Blue would be 50,000x. Though Super sort of retconned godly powers to be a little less special, considering 17, Gohan and Kale forced Goku to go Blue so right now I'd say SSG is probably around 4,000x or 9,000x of Goku's base, with Blue being 5,000x or 10,000x. This would still have to be enough to put SSG in the "I never never knew such power existed" realm and above Vegetto.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:54 am

mamoru wrote:
Meshack wrote:I don't agree with any multiplier for Super Saiyan God unless there's an official source.
Bro this is my opinion and I don't think any "official" source is gonna explain the multipliers.
You asked for my opinion, and I said I don't agree. Also, you don't know if they're gonna give a number to the forms. The stuff is recent, so there's no need to explain everything right now or give a number the God and Blue. Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3 received multipliers sometime after the series ended so Shueisha isn't in a rush. Plus, they would have to ask Toriyama questions and he would have to put some input into like the other databooks, and Super is not ending anytime soon, so there's time. They're not even trying to make sense of the power so why should you? Toshio doesn't even know if Vegeta is stronger than Hit now, and isn't sure if Tenshinhan is stronger than Kame-Sennin. Toyotarou is unsure if Vegetto is stronger than Beerus even though he writes the series. These guys write the series but don't know how strong they are. This gives them the freedom to do whatever but somewhat understand who's stronger than who. Putting numbers on it now would complicate things

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:56 am

emperior wrote:In my list Super Saiyan God is 40,000x BoG Goku's base, so a 100x multiplier of SSJ3. Blue would be 50,000x. Though Super sort of retconned godly powers to be a little less special, considering 17, Gohan and Kale forced Goku to go Blue so right now I'd say SSG is probably around 4,000x or 9,000x of Goku's base, with Blue being 5,000x or 10,000x. This would still have to be enough to put SSG in the "I never never knew such power existed" realm and above Vegetto.
They didn't force Gokuh to transform lol

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by mamoru » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:30 am

Meshack wrote:
emperior wrote:In my list Super Saiyan God is 40,000x BoG Goku's base, so a 100x multiplier of SSJ3. Blue would be 50,000x. Though Super sort of retconned godly powers to be a little less special, considering 17, Gohan and Kale forced Goku to go Blue so right now I'd say SSG is probably around 4,000x or 9,000x of Goku's base, with Blue being 5,000x or 10,000x. This would still have to be enough to put SSG in the "I never never knew such power existed" realm and above Vegetto.
They didn't force Gokuh to transform lol
Only Android 17 forced Goku to transform. Gohan literally kept begging Goku to go full power and Goku was suppressed against Kale. This was supported when he got no injuries when Kale threw Goku away.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:48 pm

mamoru wrote:
Meshack wrote:
emperior wrote:In my list Super Saiyan God is 40,000x BoG Goku's base, so a 100x multiplier of SSJ3. Blue would be 50,000x. Though Super sort of retconned godly powers to be a little less special, considering 17, Gohan and Kale forced Goku to go Blue so right now I'd say SSG is probably around 4,000x or 9,000x of Goku's base, with Blue being 5,000x or 10,000x. This would still have to be enough to put SSG in the "I never never knew such power existed" realm and above Vegetto.
They didn't force Gokuh to transform lol
Only Android 17 forced Goku to transform. Gohan literally kept begging Goku to go full power and Goku was suppressed against Kale. This was supported when he got no injuries when Kale threw Goku away.
No one forced Gokuh to transform. Gokuh wasn't going all in. He was testing No. 17's power

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by mamoru » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am

Meshack wrote:
mamoru wrote:
Meshack wrote: They didn't force Gokuh to transform lol
Only Android 17 forced Goku to transform. Gohan literally kept begging Goku to go full power and Goku was suppressed against Kale. This was supported when he got no injuries when Kale threw Goku away.
No one forced Gokuh to transform. Gokuh wasn't going all in. He was testing No. 17's power
Okay.. but Goku literally stated that he didn't plan to use that form, implying that at least Android 17 is SSJ3 Goku's level. Goku:"To be honest, I didn't intend to." - Crunchyroll Subs.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:26 am

mamoru wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_gwRUhSrpY

Hey guys just wanted to see if you agree with my Super Saiyan God Multiplier. So I basically said that SSG was 800x Saiyan Beyond God and SSGSS Is 4000x Saiyan Beyond God and that's just lowballing. Because of Beerus's statement that 10% of SSGSS Vegeta is weaker than SSG Goku. Also 10% of 4000 is 400 which is the SSJ3 multiplier so if SSG is 800x it's 2 times SSJ3 which fits quite nicely. So if SSG Goku is 20% Of SSGSS, then SSGSSS is a 5x multiplier of SSG.
Though I don't agree with where they placed Goku's base form, I'm okay with the basic multiplier they used for the manga normal SSB.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:13 pm

Hi all. Here are my power levels from the original Dragon Ball series.


Early Dragon Ball Arc:

[spoiler]Goku - 30
Hungry Goku - 26
Tailless Goku - 27
Oozaru Goku - 300

Goku's power level of 10 from the guides doesn't make sense considering that it's only twice the strenght of a human and he showed feats that are more than that. He even tanked bullets. Putting him at least in the 30 range would be fine. As an Oozaru, he is pretty much 10 times stronger as stated in the Saiyan arc.
When he is hungry, Goku is obviously weaker.
And without the tail, he is stated to be weaker too.


Yamcha - 25
Wolf Fang Fist - 27

Yamcha is weaker than Goku, even when he was hungry. However, being hungry made him unable to resist Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist. I put him at 25 since he should still be near the range of the superhuman level like Goku (who also still doesn't surpass the human level yet).


Krillin - 22

I think that at this point of the series, Krillin was weaker than Yamcha. Specially considering that Tailless Goku, who was weaker than normal Goku, stomped Krillin easily, something that I don't really see it happening with Yamcha.


Chi Chi - 23

I think she's stronger than Krillin since she was outrunning a T Rex, who's speed is around 30 km/h to 35 km/h or so, something that Krillin simply wouldn't do with a lower speed (based on his speed test in training with Roshi). She's weaker than Yamcha though, since she was hurted by him, though not that much weaker.


Ox King - 40

Ox King is easily above Goku as seen in the series, being more durable and unhurted. However, he is weaker than Roshi. Whose power level I will say later.[/spoiler]


21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 50
Tailless Goku - 45
Oozaru Goku - 500

Thanks to the training with Master Roshi, Goku gets to a new level. Without tail, he is slightly weaker as always. With Oozaru, he is 10 times stronger.


Roshi - 55

Roshi, as Jackie Chun, fights in the tournament. His power is equal to Goku, though Roshi might have the edge, with Goku's saiyan body and Roshi's old one playing a part.


Nam - 40

Nam manages to hold his own against Goku (with his tail). That would put him quite close to Goku, but not by much. I'd say he is still inferior to Tailless Goku.


Krillin - 36

Thanks to the training with Master Roshi, Krillin gets to a new level. He is, as always, much weaker than Tailless Goku. He did manage to hold his own against Roshi, though not as good as Nam against Goku, which is why I place Nam above him.


Giran - 34

I think Giran is slightly below Krillin, but with the Guru Guru Gum he would take the victory in an hypothetical fight between the two.


Bacterian - 32

Yamcha thought Bacterian was really strong, which is why I place him above Yamcha (unless he goes with a Wolf Fang Fist, although it might fail because of Bacterian's smell).


Yamcha - 30

Yamcha, with a lot of hard training for the tournament, finally manages to get to the level Goku had in the beggining of the series. However, is not enough for this tournament since most of the fighters still outclass him, specially Roshi, who easily stomped Yamcha without the lattter being able to land a single hit.


Ranfan - 25

This is the only one that I'm not really sure where to put. She was able to make Nam scream, but he was probably holding back a lot at that time. I don't know, maybe having her as the weakest of the top 8 is enough?[/spoiler]


Red Ribbon Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 50
Goku (post Muscle Tower) - 55
Goku (post Korin training) - 95

Goku is pretty much the same as he was in the 21st Tournament, until after many fights at Muscle Tower, he gets stronger, adding Krillin's quote too about Goku, when fighting General Blue, being stronger than he was at the tournament. Unfortunately for him, he is easily defeated (and nearly killed) by Tao Pai Pai. Goku then climbs Korin Tower. Trains with Korin, and increases his strenght to a different new dimension, making his power above Tao.


Korin - 120

Korin is stronger than Goku, even after his training with him, since Goku only surpassed him by the 22nd Budokai arc.


Black - 45
Battle Jacket - 80

The reason why I put Black really close to Goku and higher than General Blue (which I'll get later), is because he did indirectly say that he was stronger than all the other soldiers Goku fought (he said it when he was about to fight Goku), I don't think that includes Tao Pai Pai, so I'd say that he is stronger than all the other soldiers. It would also make sense since he is the one who was like, let's say, protecting Commander Red (that's of course until... you know what happens later).

Battle Jacket caused more problems to Goku than what Tao Pai Pai did (whose power level I'll mention later), so he has to be quite close to Goku in strenght. It would also make sense since it's like defeating the strongest and final villian of the whole Red Ribbon arc.


Tao Pai Pai - 76

Tao Pai Pai easily stomps Goku before his training with Korin. Then after the training with Korin, Tao is the one who gets defeated, though not stomped that easily.


Android 8 - 70

It's really unknown the strenght of Android 8 in comparison to characters like Tao Pai Pai. It's only stated that Android 8 is stronger than Goku (before his training with Korin), but we don't know anything aside from that. However, given how Tao easily defeated Goku and nearly killed him, I'm not sure if Android 8 would be able to do that very easily to Goku.


Roshi - 55

As strong as in the 21st Budokai. Nothing more to say.


Pirate Robot - 47

This robot defeated Krillin easily, and caused Goku a bit of problems. He is superior to General Blue, that's what I think.


Bora - 45

He is weaker than Goku, that's for sure. Tao did compliment him a bit, unlike with General Blue, so I put Bora slightly above him.


General Blue - 43

As said before, Bora is slightly above Blue in my opinion. Even without using his paralysis technique, he is shown to be superior to Krillin in strenght, though is weaker than Goku.


Buyon - 40

I think all of the warriors at the Muscle tower have the same strenght, but they have different attributes that made them different when fighting opponents. Buyon has a special body, that's why there was no damage on him.


Ninja Murasaki - 40

Murasaki is probably the only one that I think it's truly in the 40 range without any special attribute. It doesn't contradict anything, he is inferior to Goku in speed and strenght too.


Sergeant Metallic - 40

I think the reason why Sergeant Metallic manages to resist all of Goku's attacks is because of his durability. I mean, he was on the second floor for a reason.


Krillin - 36

Like in the 21st Tournament, Krillin is still in the same level of strenght.


General White - 20
Coronel Silver - 20

It's unknown the strenght of these guys. So I'm just putting those random levels here.[/spoiler]


Baba Tournament Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 95

The same as before. Nothing has changed.


Grandpa Gohan - 90

He is able to fight Goku better than what any other opponent in the past has ever done. That's a great feat.


Akkuman - 70

Goku wasn't that serious on him like he was with Tao, that makes Akkuman weaker than Tao, but stronger than Mummy Man.


Unknown 4th Fighter - Between 65

There's supposed to be a 4th fighter between Mummy Man and Akkuman, but it was never seen. One can assume that this fighter fits between the two in strenght.


Mummy Man - 60

Mummy Man is stated by Roshi to be stronger than Goku prior his training with Korin. That seems to be believable too, since he stomps Yamcha with full ease.


Krillin - 36

No changes here.


Yamcha - 30

Again, no changes here.[/spoiler]


22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 180
Match Level Goku - 160

Note: I know what I said in the past about the 180 and 260 numbers. But now that I think about it, maybe the numbers of the beggining of Dragon Ball Z are the ones wrong, maybe those are just holding back power levels. That's why Tien was 250 contradicting the 260 King Piccolo number, maybe that 250 number was just Tien holding back. There's also the fact that those numbers from Z wouldn't do with my power level list since those numbers are too low for everything in the original DB series to fit in. But let's continue now.

Well, Goku has improved greatly after 3 years. With only using his match level, he is able to surpass the also improved Krillin and Roshi. He is inferior to Tien though, until he uses his full power. That's where they are both equal in strenght.


Tien - 180

His strenght is equal to Goku's. None of them are above the other.


Roshi - 140

He manages to fight well against a suppressed Tien, and is superior to the improved Krillin and Yamcha. He is also superior to Master Tsuru, who is also superior to Yamcha and Krillin. However, he is outclassed by the powerful Goku and Tien, and that's where he decides to let the fights to the new generation (it seems that Super ruined things a bit here)


Tsuru - 120

A power level for him is given in a guidebook, and using it here doesn't contradict anything. Weaker than Roshi, Tien and Goku. Stronger than the rest.


Krillin - 110

He fought well against Goku, but the latter was suppressed. He is also equal to Yamcha, who was stated by Tien to be weaker than Tsuru.


Yamcha - 110

Equal to Krillin in strenght. I don't know which one of the two would win, but given how Yamcha knows the Kamehameha, he might be the winner, "might" I say.


Chiaotzu - 105

He manages to fight well against Krillin even without using his special techniques. Though Krillin did have a slight lead on him.


King Chappa - 96

This one is the most contradicting for some people, but Chappa was stated to probably be above Goku from the Baba tournament arc, and it makes completely sense. I mean, he is used here to show how much Goku has improved. Surely he should be strong to be considered that way on this tournament where people that are much stronger than Tao participate.


Pamputt - 45

Pamputt is considered to be one of the top fighters in human level, he even manages to break a brick wall with just an elbow. I think human level is only to about 50. It would make sense too, to put a fighter that would be a threat in the previous tournament, to participate and get stomped in this new one.


Man Wolf - 20

Just an ordinary fighter. Manages to survive to Roshi's heavily suppressed attacks, but nothing that shows that he is on a top human level like Pamputt.[/spoiler]


King Piccolo Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 180
Hungry Goku - 125
Goku (Post Tambourine) - 182
Goku (Post Water) - 260

Goku was terribly weak after fighting Tien at the Budokai, and was defeated by Tambourine. However, he got a bit stronger after eating. Defeating Tambourine with ease, he fights King Piccolo in his old state. King Piccolo is way above Goku and easily dominated him. But then Goku at Korin's tower drinks the Ultra Divine Water and gets to a new level again.


Old King Piccolo - 230
King Piccolo - 260

King Piccolo is above Goku. I decided to ignore the whole "less than 50%" stuff since it really avoids me to make this list. At least he still leaves a big enough gap to defeat Goku easily.


Drum - 210

His power is higher than Tien's. Though Tien at least manages to hurt him, he is still severely outmatched. Goku after his water power up is obviously better than that.


Tien - 180

Nothing changes between the 22nd Budokai Tien and this Tien.


Yajirobe - 150

Yajirobe is pretty tough, though Goku could've easily been using his match level, though it's unknown. I do think he is stronger than Tambourine, since he did show fighting equally against Goku, while Tambourine was stomped without even being able to see Goku's movements. Yajirobe being surprised of that is simply because he is amazed at how Goku easily defeated Tambourine, it doesn't mean that Yajirobe can't do the same, specially with his sword.


Tambourine - 145

Tambourine is stronger than Krillin since he killed him. He was considered pretty strong and manage to defeat a Goku that was hungry. I have him weaker than Yajirobe because of the feats both showed against Goku. It's unknown how to compare him with someone like Roshi, but it doesn't contradict that much that he can be stronger than him.


Roshi - 140

The same as before. No changes.


Cymbal - 130

I think Cymbal is stronger than Krillin, but weaker than Roshi or anyone at Tambourine's level (stated in the series).


Chiaotzu - 100

The same as before.


Mr Popo - 340

Mr Popo easily dominates Goku (post water), and the gap is quite large, though Popo also has advantages because of having more skill in sensing ki and such.


Kami - 400

Kami is also in turn higher than Mr Popo in strenght, as stated by Mr Popo himself, and he finger-flicked a Goku that had the Ultra Divine Water power up. Things will change later on...[/spoiler]


23rd Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Weighted Goku - 434
Weighted Goku (speed) - 260
Goku - 540

With his weights, Goku has the same speed he had back in the day, but he does has strenght beneath him. His speed is outclassed by Tien's. However, removing his weights make him going on a far different level, surpassing even Kami's power level, and is equal to Piccolo's.


Weighted Piccolo (early Krillin fight) - 260
Weighted Piccolo - 425
Piccolo - 540

Piccolo in his supressed strenght, and during the first part of the fight with Krillin, I think he is at his father's strenght, and is just slightly above Krillin. Then he shows Krillin the true strenght of Ma Junior's, meaning the strenght that surpasses that of his father's. Stomping Krillin with ease. He is also slightly above Kami in strenght and speed. Now, I know that Piccolo doesn't use weights in this tournament, I just decided to add it in case they were. But when removing them, he shows his full power against Goku. Both are at a level where everyone is quite small in comparison.


Shen- 380
Kami - 400

Kami as Shen is stated to be a bit weaker than normal Kami, but he still way higher than Tien and the rest, but weaker than Piccolo and Goku, even in his normal form.


Tien - 300

Tien in both strenght and speed, surpasses Weighted Goku's speed, who has the same speed as the Goku from the King Piccolo arc after his Ultra Divine Water power up. Making Tien stronger than King Piccolo. He is still stronger than Krillin and Yamcha, but is way weaker than Kami, Piccolo and Goku.


Krillin - 240

Krillin was totally amazed by Weighted Goku's and Tien's suppressed speed, and that speed is the same as King Piccolo's. That means that this Krillin still hadn't caught up to King Piccolo. But would still be able to make a good fight, like how he did against Piccolo Jr.


Yamcha - 220

Yamcha was totally amazed by Weighted Goku's and Tien's suppressed speed, and that speed is the same as King Piccolo's. That means that this Yamcha still hadn't caught up to King Piccolo. Given the numbers of the Raditz arc that show Krillin as being superior to Yamcha, I suppose the same can be applied here. However, if both of them are supposed to do a match, and if Yamcha makes a Spirit Ball, then I believe Yamcha would certainly win there.


Cyborg Tao - 210

Tsuru knows Tien's skills and strenght from back in the 22nd Budokai, and certainly expected him to improve. That means that Cyborg Tao must be stronger than 22nd Budokai Tien. However, he falls short against the current Tien, as well as Krillin and Yamcha, who are able to see Tien's movements. I think Cyborg Tao is Drum's equal, like a what if Tien defeats someone who was on the tier of the one who defeated him 3 years ago.


Chiaotzu - 160

All of Goku's friends surpassed Roshi, and that includes Chiaotzu. He did train with Korin, as well as training with Tien. However, we know his boosts are quite low, and he is easily defeated by Cyborg Tao. I don't think he is there with 22nd Budokai Goku or Tien yet.


Roshi - 154

Roshi surely kept up with his training according to Super, though he doesn't train as intensively as before, since he's like "retired".


Yajirobe - 150

Yajiobe is the same as before, there's no telling if he increased his strenght at all, nor that he decreased. He's still one shot material for Kami.


Chi Chi - 130

There's an official number somewhere listing her at 130, and it doesn't contradict anything. She showed better feats than King Chappa did against Goku, and was complimented by Roshi. I doubt Chi Chi is at 21st Budokai level if she managed to keep up in this Budokai. I'm pretty sure that if this Chi Chi entered the 22nd Budokai, she would've made a good role.


King Chappa - 105

King Chappa trained after the 22nd Budokai, and is stronger. Unfortunately for him, it's not enough, and it's clearly outmatched by any fighter that is part of the main cast.[/spoiler]

That's all. Post your thoughts if you want to.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:54 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:Hi all. Here are my power levels from the original Dragon Ball series.


Early Dragon Ball Arc:

[spoiler]Goku - 30
Hungry Goku - 26
Tailless Goku - 27
Oozaru Goku - 300

Goku's power level of 10 from the guides doesn't make sense considering that it's only twice the strenght of a human and he showed feats that are more than that. He even tanked bullets. Putting him at least in the 30 range would be fine. As an Oozaru, he is pretty much 10 times stronger as stated in the Saiyan arc.
When he is hungry, Goku is obviously weaker.
And without the tail, he is stated to be weaker too.


Yamcha - 25
Wolf Fang Fist - 27

Yamcha is weaker than Goku, even when he was hungry. However, being hungry made him unable to resist Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist. I put him at 25 since he should still be near the range of the superhuman level like Goku (who also still doesn't surpass the human level yet).


Krillin - 22

I think that at this point of the series, Krillin was weaker than Yamcha. Specially considering that Tailless Goku, who was weaker than normal Goku, stomped Krillin easily, something that I don't really see it happening with Yamcha.


Chi Chi - 23

I think she's stronger than Krillin since she was outrunning a T Rex, who's speed is around 30 km/h to 35 km/h or so, something that Krillin simply wouldn't do with a lower speed (based on his speed test in training with Roshi). She's weaker than Yamcha though, since she was hurted by him, though not that much weaker.


Ox King - 40

Ox King is easily above Goku as seen in the series, being more durable and unhurted. However, he is weaker than Roshi. Whose power level I will say later.[/spoiler]


21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 50
Tailless Goku - 45
Oozaru Goku - 500

Thanks to the training with Master Roshi, Goku gets to a new level. Without tail, he is slightly weaker as always. With Oozaru, he is 10 times stronger.


Roshi - 55

Roshi, as Jackie Chun, fights in the tournament. His power is equal to Goku, though Roshi might have the edge, with Goku's saiyan body and Roshi's old one playing a part.


Nam - 40

Nam manages to hold his own against Goku (with his tail). That would put him quite close to Goku, but not by much. I'd say he is still inferior to Tailless Goku.


Krillin - 36

Thanks to the training with Master Roshi, Krillin gets to a new level. He is, as always, much weaker than Tailless Goku. He did manage to hold his own against Roshi, though not as good as Nam against Goku, which is why I place Nam above him.


Giran - 34

I think Giran is slightly below Krillin, but with the Guru Guru Gum he would take the victory in an hypothetical fight between the two.


Bacterian - 32

Yamcha thought Bacterian was really strong, which is why I place him above Yamcha (unless he goes with a Wolf Fang Fist, although it might fail because of Bacterian's smell).


Yamcha - 30

Yamcha, with a lot of hard training for the tournament, finally manages to get to the level Goku had in the beggining of the series. However, is not enough for this tournament since most of the fighters still outclass him, specially Roshi, who easily stomped Yamcha without the lattter being able to land a single hit.


Ranfan - 25

This is the only one that I'm not really sure where to put. She was able to make Nam scream, but he was probably holding back a lot at that time. I don't know, maybe having her as the weakest of the top 8 is enough?[/spoiler]


Red Ribbon Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 50
Goku (post Muscle Tower) - 55
Goku (post Korin training) - 95

Goku is pretty much the same as he was in the 21st Tournament, until after many fights at Muscle Tower, he gets stronger, adding Krillin's quote too about Goku, when fighting General Blue, being stronger than he was at the tournament. Unfortunately for him, he is easily defeated (and nearly killed) by Tao Pai Pai. Goku then climbs Korin Tower. Trains with Korin, and increases his strenght to a different new dimension, making his power above Tao.


Korin - 120

Korin is stronger than Goku, even after his training with him, since Goku only surpassed him by the 22nd Budokai arc.


Black - 45
Battle Jacket - 80

The reason why I put Black really close to Goku and higher than General Blue (which I'll get later), is because he did indirectly say that he was stronger than all the other soldiers Goku fought (he said it when he was about to fight Goku), I don't think that includes Tao Pai Pai, so I'd say that he is stronger than all the other soldiers. It would also make sense since he is the one who was like, let's say, protecting Commander Red (that's of course until... you know what happens later).

Battle Jacket caused more problems to Goku than what Tao Pai Pai did (whose power level I'll mention later), so he has to be quite close to Goku in strenght. It would also make sense since it's like defeating the strongest and final villian of the whole Red Ribbon arc.


Tao Pai Pai - 76

Tao Pai Pai easily stomps Goku before his training with Korin. Then after the training with Korin, Tao is the one who gets defeated, though not stomped that easily.


Android 8 - 70

It's really unknown the strenght of Android 8 in comparison to characters like Tao Pai Pai. It's only stated that Android 8 is stronger than Goku (before his training with Korin), but we don't know anything aside from that. However, given how Tao easily defeated Goku and nearly killed him, I'm not sure if Android 8 would be able to do that very easily to Goku.


Roshi - 55

As strong as in the 21st Budokai. Nothing more to say.


Pirate Robot - 47

This robot defeated Krillin easily, and caused Goku a bit of problems. He is superior to General Blue, that's what I think.


Bora - 45

He is weaker than Goku, that's for sure. Tao did compliment him a bit, unlike with General Blue, so I put Bora slightly above him.


General Blue - 43

As said before, Bora is slightly above Blue in my opinion. Even without using his paralysis technique, he is shown to be superior to Krillin in strenght, though is weaker than Goku.


Buyon - 40

I think all of the warriors at the Muscle tower have the same strenght, but they have different attributes that made them different when fighting opponents. Buyon has a special body, that's why there was no damage on him.


Ninja Murasaki - 40

Murasaki is probably the only one that I think it's truly in the 40 range without any special attribute. It doesn't contradict anything, he is inferior to Goku in speed and strenght too.


Sergeant Metallic - 40

I think the reason why Sergeant Metallic manages to resist all of Goku's attacks is because of his durability. I mean, he was on the second floor for a reason.


Krillin - 36

Like in the 21st Tournament, Krillin is still in the same level of strenght.


General White - 20
Coronel Silver - 20

It's unknown the strenght of these guys. So I'm just putting those random levels here.[/spoiler]


Baba Tournament Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 95

The same as before. Nothing has changed.


Grandpa Gohan - 90

He is able to fight Goku better than what any other opponent in the past has ever done. That's a great feat.


Akkuman - 70

Goku wasn't that serious on him like he was with Tao, that makes Akkuman weaker than Tao, but stronger than Mummy Man.


Unknown 4th Fighter - Between 65

There's supposed to be a 4th fighter between Mummy Man and Akkuman, but it was never seen. One can assume that this fighter fits between the two in strenght.


Mummy Man - 60

Mummy Man is stated by Roshi to be stronger than Goku prior his training with Korin. That seems to be believable too, since he stomps Yamcha with full ease.


Krillin - 36

No changes here.


Yamcha - 30

Again, no changes here.[/spoiler]


22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 180
Match Level Goku - 160

Note: I know what I said in the past about the 180 and 260 numbers. But now that I think about it, maybe the numbers of the beggining of Dragon Ball Z are the ones wrong, maybe those are just holding back power levels. That's why Tien was 250 contradicting the 260 King Piccolo number, maybe that 250 number was just Tien holding back. There's also the fact that those numbers from Z wouldn't do with my power level list since those numbers are too low for everything in the original DB series to fit in. But let's continue now.

Well, Goku has improved greatly after 3 years. With only using his match level, he is able to surpass the also improved Krillin and Roshi. He is inferior to Tien though, until he uses his full power. That's where they are both equal in strenght.


Tien - 180

His strenght is equal to Goku's. None of them are above the other.


Roshi - 140

He manages to fight well against a suppressed Tien, and is superior to the improved Krillin and Yamcha. He is also superior to Master Tsuru, who is also superior to Yamcha and Krillin. However, he is outclassed by the powerful Goku and Tien, and that's where he decides to let the fights to the new generation (it seems that Super ruined things a bit here)


Tsuru - 120

A power level for him is given in a guidebook, and using it here doesn't contradict anything. Weaker than Roshi, Tien and Goku. Stronger than the rest.


Krillin - 110

He fought well against Goku, but the latter was suppressed. He is also equal to Yamcha, who was stated by Tien to be weaker than Tsuru.


Yamcha - 110

Equal to Krillin in strenght. I don't know which one of the two would win, but given how Yamcha knows the Kamehameha, he might be the winner, "might" I say.


Chiaotzu - 105

He manages to fight well against Krillin even without using his special techniques. Though Krillin did have a slight lead on him.


King Chappa - 96

This one is the most contradicting for some people, but Chappa was stated to probably be above Goku from the Baba tournament arc, and it makes completely sense. I mean, he is used here to show how much Goku has improved. Surely he should be strong to be considered that way on this tournament where people that are much stronger than Tao participate.


Pamputt - 45

Pamputt is considered to be one of the top fighters in human level, he even manages to break a brick wall with just an elbow. I think human level is only to about 50. It would make sense too, to put a fighter that would be a threat in the previous tournament, to participate and get stomped in this new one.


Man Wolf - 20

Just an ordinary fighter. Manages to survive to Roshi's heavily suppressed attacks, but nothing that shows that he is on a top human level like Pamputt.[/spoiler]


King Piccolo Arc

[spoiler]Goku - 180
Hungry Goku - 125
Goku (Post Tambourine) - 182
Goku (Post Water) - 260

Goku was terribly weak after fighting Tien at the Budokai, and was defeated by Tambourine. However, he got a bit stronger after eating. Defeating Tambourine with ease, he fights King Piccolo in his old state. King Piccolo is way above Goku and easily dominated him. But then Goku at Korin's tower drinks the Ultra Divine Water and gets to a new level again.


Old King Piccolo - 230
King Piccolo - 260

King Piccolo is above Goku. I decided to ignore the whole "less than 50%" stuff since it really avoids me to make this list. At least he still leaves a big enough gap to defeat Goku easily.


Drum - 210

His power is higher than Tien's. Though Tien at least manages to hurt him, he is still severely outmatched. Goku after his water power up is obviously better than that.


Tien - 180

Nothing changes between the 22nd Budokai Tien and this Tien.


Yajirobe - 150

Yajirobe is pretty tough, though Goku could've easily been using his match level, though it's unknown. I do think he is stronger than Tambourine, since he did show fighting equally against Goku, while Tambourine was stomped without even being able to see Goku's movements. Yajirobe being surprised of that is simply because he is amazed at how Goku easily defeated Tambourine, it doesn't mean that Yajirobe can't do the same, specially with his sword.


Tambourine - 145

Tambourine is stronger than Krillin since he killed him. He was considered pretty strong and manage to defeat a Goku that was hungry. I have him weaker than Yajirobe because of the feats both showed against Goku. It's unknown how to compare him with someone like Roshi, but it doesn't contradict that much that he can be stronger than him.


Roshi - 140

The same as before. No changes.


Cymbal - 130

I think Cymbal is stronger than Krillin, but weaker than Roshi or anyone at Tambourine's level (stated in the series).


Chiaotzu - 100

The same as before.


Mr Popo - 340

Mr Popo easily dominates Goku (post water), and the gap is quite large, though Popo also has advantages because of having more skill in sensing ki and such.


Kami - 400

Kami is also in turn higher than Mr Popo in strenght, as stated by Mr Popo himself, and he finger-flicked a Goku that had the Ultra Divine Water power up. Things will change later on...[/spoiler]


23rd Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Weighted Goku - 434
Weighted Goku (speed) - 260
Goku - 540

With his weights, Goku has the same speed he had back in the day, but he does has strenght beneath him. His speed is outclassed by Tien's. However, removing his weights make him going on a far different level, surpassing even Kami's power level, and is equal to Piccolo's.


Weighted Piccolo (early Krillin fight) - 260
Weighted Piccolo - 425
Piccolo - 540

Piccolo in his supressed strenght, and during the first part of the fight with Krillin, I think he is at his father's strenght, and is just slightly above Krillin. Then he shows Krillin the true strenght of Ma Junior's, meaning the strenght that surpasses that of his father's. Stomping Krillin with ease. He is also slightly above Kami in strenght and speed. Now, I know that Piccolo doesn't use weights in this tournament, I just decided to add it in case they were. But when removing them, he shows his full power against Goku. Both are at a level where everyone is quite small in comparison.


Shen- 380
Kami - 400

Kami as Shen is stated to be a bit weaker than normal Kami, but he still way higher than Tien and the rest, but weaker than Piccolo and Goku, even in his normal form.


Tien - 300

Tien in both strenght and speed, surpasses Weighted Goku's speed, who has the same speed as the Goku from the King Piccolo arc after his Ultra Divine Water power up. Making Tien stronger than King Piccolo. He is still stronger than Krillin and Yamcha, but is way weaker than Kami, Piccolo and Goku.


Krillin - 240

Krillin was totally amazed by Weighted Goku's and Tien's suppressed speed, and that speed is the same as King Piccolo's. That means that this Krillin still hadn't caught up to King Piccolo. But would still be able to make a good fight, like how he did against Piccolo Jr.


Yamcha - 220

Yamcha was totally amazed by Weighted Goku's and Tien's suppressed speed, and that speed is the same as King Piccolo's. That means that this Yamcha still hadn't caught up to King Piccolo. Given the numbers of the Raditz arc that show Krillin as being superior to Yamcha, I suppose the same can be applied here. However, if both of them are supposed to do a match, and if Yamcha makes a Spirit Ball, then I believe Yamcha would certainly win there.


Cyborg Tao - 210

Tsuru knows Tien's skills and strenght from back in the 22nd Budokai, and certainly expected him to improve. That means that Cyborg Tao must be stronger than 22nd Budokai Tien. However, he falls short against the current Tien, as well as Krillin and Yamcha, who are able to see Tien's movements. I think Cyborg Tao is Drum's equal, like a what if Tien defeats someone who was on the tier of the one who defeated him 3 years ago.


Chiaotzu - 160

All of Goku's friends surpassed Roshi, and that includes Chiaotzu. He did train with Korin, as well as training with Tien. However, we know his boosts are quite low, and he is easily defeated by Cyborg Tao. I don't think he is there with 22nd Budokai Goku or Tien yet.


Roshi - 154

Roshi surely kept up with his training according to Super, though he doesn't train as intensively as before, since he's like "retired".


Yajirobe - 150

Yajiobe is the same as before, there's no telling if he increased his strenght at all, nor that he decreased. He's still one shot material for Kami.


Chi Chi - 130

There's an official number somewhere listing her at 130, and it doesn't contradict anything. She showed better feats than King Chappa did against Goku, and was complimented by Roshi. I doubt Chi Chi is at 21st Budokai level if she managed to keep up in this Budokai. I'm pretty sure that if this Chi Chi entered the 22nd Budokai, she would've made a good role.


King Chappa - 105

King Chappa trained after the 22nd Budokai, and is stronger. Unfortunately for him, it's not enough, and it's clearly outmatched by any fighter that is part of the main cast.[/spoiler]

That's all. Post your thoughts if you want to.
The 1st part of the list is pretty good for me. I'd change some stuff, like putting 21st Yamcha > BoS Goku or having 21st Goku ~ Jackie, but that's just me. I really liked the 1st part overall. However, for the 22nd Budokai and on, this goes down the hill:

- I like the ideia of the humans being suppressed on BoZ. If Goku and Piccolo have a standing power on 400ish and battle power on 900ish, why can't the humans do the same?
- Goku actually had a bit of an edge over Tenshinhan in pure strength.
- Roshi was fighting evenly with Tenshinhan to a point he was appealing to the Solar Flare, and later Tenshinhan said Roshi wasn't going all out. He should be up there with Goku and Tenshinhan
- Where are Tenshinhan and Jackie's suppressed levels? They are kind of important to determine Tsuru's power. Tenshinhan started out on pair with Yamcha, powered up to stomp Yamcha and was even with Shirt Jackie, and only when Jackie takes off his shirt Tenshinhan says Tsuru has been surpassed.
- You can't ignore Piccolo's <50% quote, it's a direct statement of power. And such a small boost can't work between Young and Old: Piccolo said there was no comparison between his younger and his older self. And wait, there is more: Initial Post Water Goku is all confident on taking Daimao even knowing he even used half of his power to embarass him, but Young Daimao managed to knock this Goku down, so <50% Young >> 100% Old.
- 23rd Chaotsu ought to be > 22nd Goku and Tien considering Roshi was right on their tails.
- Er... Goku's levels are awfully wrong. Weighted Goku was fighting evenly with Tenshinhan until he showed his true speed, but then Goku removes his weights and speedblitz Tenshinhan so hard even his 3 eyes can't see him. And Tenshinhan said this Goku wasn't even close to his full power, yet he's completely astonished by Piccolo and Shen and says they nobody could be that strong, what should include his estimatives for Goku. Then Goku fights this same Piccolo on a warm up section, and their full powers are so much above everyone that even a Half Dead Piccolo and a Limbless Goku is above Kami and the humans. Just insane.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Is the power level of Piccolo's special beam cannon that kills Raditz and Goku, 1,480 or 1,485?

This site lists 1,480 but the subs on the episode say 1,485 and it does sound like that's what he says but I'm not 100% sure.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:56 pm

I don't have my Dragon Boxes with me to confirm, but the subtitles on Funimation's site do translates Raditz's dialogue as 1,485 as opposed to 1,480. I tried to listen to the Japanese dialogue myself and it does sound like he said "Go" towards the end, indicating a five, but the audio quality isn't all that great and I'm honestly not all that familiar with the Japanese language.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:23 pm

I recently re-went through the Piccolo Daimao arc myself. Timeless read.

In regards to the understandable headscratchers of Goku vs. Daimao in light of the official numbers, the 50% statement can work without too much hassle with the 260 figure if one assumed that Goku - albeit feeling full of "energy" - still still wasn't at his 100%, and needed some rest, or healing, or whatever convenient plot point.
One possible problem could be Roshi's refusal to fight Piccolo (as in, they'd be more or less equal, or Roshi and Tien could/should beat the Piccolo who fights Goku), but it can be justified assuming Roshi - the only one of the three "powerhouses" who has the chance to fight at that point at full strength - either had an idea or made an estimation what Daimao's full power might have been according to what he remembered. The Mafuba, furthermore, was definitely their best alternative overall, so it can make sense to go directly for it. Then there's Goku stating 50% or less of Old Daimao's strength and speed surpass his own when they're fighting.
After that, Daimao's strength when the fiend re-obtains his prime only needs to be somewhat above his decrepit self's "100%"; we already knew he wreaked havoc at suppressed levels and that he wasn't comfortable with (or perhaps even able to withstand prolongedly) keeping his power to less restrained levels.

Merely to put the words in perspective, the hypothetical numbers from the 22nd Budokai to the end of the Piccolo Daimao saga could end up being something like this:

[spoiler]Krillin: 68
Yamcha: 73
Tsuru-sennin: 120

Roshi: 110 (Normal)
______177 (Semi-Buffed; vs. Tien)

Yajirobei: 106
Tien: 180

Goku: 180 (Normal)
______45 (debilitated; vs. Tambourine)
______104 (full stomach and semi-rested; vs. Tambourine #2; vs. Old Daimao)
______254 (post-Senzu and post-Water; vs. Young Daimao)

Tambourine: 84
Drum: 202
Daimao: 115 ("Old", less than 50%; vs. Goku)
________240 ("Old", max)
________220 ("Young", relaxed)
________260 ("Young", max)[/spoiler]

(I'm really happy since I can reconcile the 260; it holds quite the historical value).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:24 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:I recently re-went through the Piccolo Daimao arc myself. Timeless read.

In regards to the understandable headscratchers of Goku vs. Daimao in light of the official numbers, the 50% statement can work without too much hassle with the 260 figure if one assumed that Goku - albeit feeling full of "energy" - still still wasn't at his 100%, and needed some rest, or healing, or whatever convenient plot point.
One possible problem could be Roshi's refusal to fight Piccolo (as in, they'd be more or less equal, or Roshi and Tien could/should beat the Piccolo who fights Goku), but it can be justified assuming Roshi - the only one of the three "powerhouses" who has the chance to fight at that point at full strength - either had an idea or made an estimation what Daimao's full power might have been according to what he remembered. The Mafuba, furthermore, was definitely their best alternative overall, so it can make sense to go directly for it. Then there's Goku stating 50% or less of Old Daimao's strength and speed surpass his own when they're fighting.
After that, Daimao's strength when the fiend re-obtains his prime only needs to be somewhat above his decrepit self's "100%"; we already knew he wreaked havoc at suppressed levels and that he wasn't comfortable with (or perhaps even able to withstand prolongedly) keeping his power to less restrained levels.

Merely to put the words in perspective, the hypothetical numbers from the 22nd Budokai to the end of the Piccolo Daimao saga could end up being something like this:

[spoiler]Krillin: 68
Yamcha: 73
Tsuru-sennin: 120

Roshi: 110 (Normal)
______177 (Semi-Buffed; vs. Tien)

Yajirobei: 106
Tien: 180

Goku: 180 (Normal)
______45 (debilitated; vs. Tambourine)
______104 (full stomach and semi-rested; vs. Tambourine #2; vs. Old Daimao)
______254 (post-Senzu and post-Water; vs. Young Daimao)

Tambourine: 84
Drum: 202
Daimao: 115 ("Old", less than 50%; vs. Goku)
________240 ("Old", max)
________220 ("Young", relaxed)
________260 ("Young", max)[/spoiler]

(I'm really happy since I can reconcile the 260; it holds quite the historical value).

The arc us such a good read, huh? But i gotta disagree here.

Why wouldn't Goku be at 100%? He slept for an entire day and eated a huge fish, so as a fan theory this is kinda of discarted. How would this be plot device if it's never even implied on the plot? Damn it, this Goku is implied to be even stronger as Roshi talks about his younger self and Mutaito like they are above 22nd Goku:
Chapter: 135, P6.1
Kame-sennin: “Despite the cute name, [Piccolo] was an outrageously fearsome person…His strength was extremely overwhelming…[ ] He was an opponent we were utterly unable to oppose; not only my younger self or Tsuru-sennin, but even our master, Mutaito. ”
But Daimao flat out says Goku is the strongest a human could be:
Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”
I'm not sure about <50% Daimao being 1.1x stronger than Goku. I know Vegeta did the same thing to Zarbon and Dodoria, but we are talking about an old man who aged centuries on a bottle against someone young and fresh who trained with masters, and Vegeta was at least putting effort, while Daimao had a smile on his face.

Having Piccolo's max going from 240 to 260 doesn't work as well. Piano said there was no comparison between both forms:
Chapter: 144, P9.2-3
Pilaf: “Um, hey…So if he regains his youth, he’ll be even more amazing…?”
Piano: “Naturally. So much so that there’ll be no comparison [to how he is now].”
Btw, the 260 number screws itself by having Young Daimao > Tenshinhan, while Tenshinhan was all confident on taking Goku and even thinks 3 years ago Goku was slow, despite him being faster than Piccolo iirc.

I just did an experiment trying to fit Pre Z into scouter while being consistent with the plot, and it didn't go really well...
[spoiler]BoS Goku: 15
21st Goku: 30
RRA Goku: 33
Tao: 66
Goku: 75
Chappa: 75
Kuririn/Yamcha: 82,5
Roshi (Initial): 100
Master Tsuru: 110
Roshi (Serious): 120
Tenshinhan: 125
Goku: 130
Mutaito: 145
Goku (Zenkai): 150
Old Man Daimao (<50%): 200
~ Full Power: 450
Young Daimao (Initial): 600
Goku (Choushinsui, initial): 675
Young Daimao/Goku (Full Power): 1,350
Yamcha (23rd): 1,200
Kuririn (23rd): 1,250
Tenshinhan (23rd): 1,600
Goku (Vs Tenshinhan): 2,400
~ Tenshinhan's estimatives: 3,000
Piccolo Jr (Warm up)/Shen: 4,000
Kami: 5,000
Goku/Piccolo (Full Power): 10,000[/spoiler]
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:28 pm

I honestly deduced, in general, that Daimao might've had troubles reaching his 100%, or wouldn't normally use it like he wanted to (he does state he'd die sooner and wanted to avoid it at all costs before he got his eternal youth, I suppose), thus justifying the statements or the "hype" behind the fact he got young again (with also some extra power, a +20 was fairly big back in Dragon Ball). I don't believe it's really that hard to rationalize.

Regarding Goku and the first two statements, what the phrases imply when put together and taken literally is that (young) Daimao was stronger than both Goku and Mutaito, and that the Goku who fought Old Piccolo was as strong as any human - Mutaito included - could be in Piccolo's eyes. Under the - somewhat gratuitous - hypothesis Goku wasn't actually at his 100% like he had stated because he needed to rest more (he had fallen from the sky, wasn't exactly nursed back to health after being beaten up by Tambourine and it wasn't even stated how much he had slept), maybe Piccolo would have described Mutaito or Tien as "superhuman". Or maybe the old Mutaito who fought Piccolo might have been as strong as Goku was back then, warranting a "they're both as strong as a human can be". Assuming Piccolo Daimao's idea of the plateau of humans is to be taken literally, there's nothing of weight to deduce from those scenes since we don't know how strong the two sennin and Mutaito were back in the day (or especially when they fought Piccolo; in the anime I have Mutaito getting appreciably weaker due to old age, since he's much stronger than post-Water Goku at least at some point in time).

Truth be told, I wasn't really looking to make this a "what I think these words mean is better than what you think these words mean". Besides, I take it you basically agree with me that if we go for the "cannot-be-too-subtle" there are already egregious contradictions with the official scouter numbers (Goku and Piccolo compared to Saibamen and Raditz) when we take everything literally from Goku's "full of energy" and Piccolo's "50%".

P.S. I don't personally follow the 250 figure for Tien. I think the same source has Piccolo having some 300-value and we know he had to be above that; I concluded it was some suppressed/ mildly-relaxed form. Besides, Tien needs to be above Piccolo because he thinks he has a decent chance of beating Goku after they both trained. I could've picked a value over the other, but the 260 for Piccolo is an easier fit with the scouters.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:50 am

Does anyone find it possible to make a solid list for Super? The manga is more consistent that the anime, but still shows some ambiguity and problems in certain parts.

I would also be interested on a GT one if anyone has it.
emperior wrote:In my list Super Saiyan God is 40,000x BoG Goku's base, so a 100x multiplier of SSJ3. Blue would be 50,000x. Though Super sort of retconned godly powers to be a little less special, considering 17, Gohan and Kale forced Goku to go Blue so right now I'd say SSG is probably around 4,000x or 9,000x of Goku's base, with Blue being 5,000x or 10,000x. This would still have to be enough to put SSG in the "I never never knew such power existed" realm and above Vegetto.
There is no way SSG is more powerful than Vegetto with a mere 4,000x. Super Vegetto>Ultimate Gohan>SS3 Gotenks, who is 8x SS Gotenks who was aparently as strong or stronger than SS3 Goku, who is a 400x base Goku. Vegetto could then just turn SS3 and be stronger than SSG Goku, despite the claim of a fusion between Goku and Vegeta being useless against Beerus. Of course, you can ignore the film and go by the anime, but then it's even worse since Vegetto was even stronger in the Z anime.

Toei just fucked hardly the powerlevels as always (remember SS2 Trunks battling FZamasu, or clashing against Rosé Black?) or maybe it was Toriyama himself (Toshio said Toriyama agreed with 17's power), but I doubt Gohan will be Blue tier in the manga. And Kale being in that level is not really a problem at all. Of course the godly powers are not special anymore (hell, Frieza obtained it like nothing in RoF!) but that doesn't imply a reduced boost. Of course, it doesn't help how weak SSB looks in the anime, but still, I doubt there was an intention of making the god forms weaker.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:13 pm

MisteryOne wrote:Does anyone find it possible to make a solid list for Super? The manga is more consistent that the anime, but still shows some ambiguity and problems in certain parts.
I'm currently making one, I should be done in a few days. Could you point out what are some of the problems? Maybe we can resolve them together as a community. I haven't found any yet, although I only just finished the BoG arc.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:25 pm

MisteryOne wrote:Does anyone find it possible to make a solid list for Super? The manga is more consistent that the anime, but still shows some ambiguity and problems in certain parts.

I would also be interested on a GT one if anyone has it.
In my experience no list for the anime of Super can work without a substantial amount of "headcanon/ logical jumps/ guesswork/ filling the blanks" (you name it).

Base Goku's, base Vegeta's, base Gohan's power, Piccolo's improvements along the way, Gotenks' strength, SS2 Trunks' and the strength of Ultimate Gohan from Z all hold some sort ambiguity, apparent contradiction or extreme logical stretches. And even if you manage to solve them all (playing with Gohan's strength is the simplest solution), in the tournament you have stuff like "Good Buu >> Drugged Basil >> Goku >= Basil" and Goku and #18 being at least around the same tier of strength (18's ki blast hurt Tupper and Tupper can restrain base Goku, leaving aside 18's sligthly more ambiguos lifting feat). What makes the list 90% cleaner is, well, we already know it: treating the base seen in ROF and in the Copy-Water arc is its own transformation.

The manga is rather complicated too, but the only because of SS(1/2?) Black vs. SS2 Vegeta. It could hypothetically work if you assume Black follows some different multipliers and Vegeta's SS2 still put him above SS3 Goku like in BOG, but again, nothing is exacty straigthforward either.

GT is comparatively much, much easier to do, bar a few DUD/ PIS moments in the Super #17 arc, as long as you follow the general idea base Goku (and Vegeta) trained a lot and reached some SS1/SS2 level in base. Just have base Goku at some low billions, enough not to immediately die against Good Buu but also enough to own Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Gohan, and everything more or less works. You'll probably have Metal Rilldo around Super Buu and Super Baby Vegeta surpassing either Buuhan or Super Vegito, which wraps up the power levels from Z.

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