Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:56 am

Desassina wrote:Where do you guys have SSJB "Not Kaioken" Goku and SSJB Vegeta "Evolved Not"? They're bootleg versions of their anime counterparts and showed up in the manga.
Jiren said Vegeta's new form was the strongest before Goku's "Ascended State" which many people assumed was the Kaioken-like version because Ultra Instinct was barely used. I disagree, it refers to Ultra Instinct for sure.
The reason is the narrative and the events: Vegeta performs much better than Goku and the story tell us this is Vegeta's path parallel to Ultra Instinct. It would absolutely fall flat if this power up couldn't even do better than the crappy Kaioken-like version, we simply wouldn't waste time on it. Plus Goku and Vegeta started this tournament as equals, so it's not like Vegeta needs to cover any gap to Goku.

Ultra Instinct - ?
Jiren - 250
New Form Vegeta - 125
Kaioken-like Blue Goku - 75
CSSB Goku - 50
CSSB Vegeta - 50

Something like this, can't determine Jiren's power for sure but seems like he's holding back a lot.

PS: You're using the word bootleg wrong.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:06 am

In which context do we use "bootleg" right? I don't want to use it again.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:41 am

Bootleg is usually refereed to something illegal/unauthorized/unofficial. So you could call Gohan "Blanco" an bootleg form because it's not official, for example. Since the forms we are taking about are in the manga, an official and sanctioned product they aren't bootleg.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:41 am

But what if I meant that their names, Not Kaioken and Evolved Not, were the bootleg of what they should be called? (I know that I wasn't clear about this before).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:56 am

Unofficial naming of forms - fan-terms basically - can be called bootlegs, it's fits the meaning. Although I don't like the use here, feels a bit too severe to what basically is fans naming crap the official source didn't bother with.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ThePiccolo » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:36 pm

I guess this is a bit of an older question, but how do you guys think pre-Majin Vegeta compares to Cell Games Gohan? A bit weaker, equal or stronger?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Desassina wrote:Where do you guys have SSJB "Not Kaioken" Goku and SSJB Vegeta "Evolved Not"? They're bootleg versions of their anime counterparts and showed up in the manga.
I like to think stressed power SSJB Goku is about 2x SSJB Goku since the technique was compared to Kaioken, and SSJBE Vegeta is equals with "Kaioken" Goku, like the anime has it. This is all just conjecture though, we know nothing beyond that they're >> They base SSJB selves.
ThePiccolo wrote:I guess this is a bit of an older question, but how do you guys think pre-Majin Vegeta compares to Cell Games Gohan? A bit weaker, equal or stronger?
Most people have Gohan as the stronger one because of Piccolo claiming Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" above this Gohan, but i disagree with that notion. There are several statements were Vegeta claims himself as Gohan's superior before knowing he became weaker, and when Gohan is fighting Dabra he says "Gohan is so pathetic... So much that he's weaker than as a brat", implying Kid gohan was already pathetic to him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:29 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: That's how I took it. I mean, that is literally what it has to mean- CSSB isn't a new transformation or anything, it's explicitly stated to just be 100% of SSB's power being outputted continuously. Apparently, in "normal" SSB, it starts out at full power in an explosive burst (as Beerus put it) and then quickly drops to a lower level, hence why Vegeta's SSG/SSB switch tactic let him trounce SSR Black.
I also originally took it that way, but then I'm not sure why the difference between SSB/SSG switching and CSSB would be so great in terms of ability to fight Zamasu if they both put out the same power.

Also, if the scaling is so low, I'm not sure how to fit Vegeta's rage form or Black's Super Saiyan form.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:19 pm

Saiga wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: That's how I took it. I mean, that is literally what it has to mean- CSSB isn't a new transformation or anything, it's explicitly stated to just be 100% of SSB's power being outputted continuously. Apparently, in "normal" SSB, it starts out at full power in an explosive burst (as Beerus put it) and then quickly drops to a lower level, hence why Vegeta's SSG/SSB switch tactic let him trounce SSR Black.
I also originally took it that way, but then I'm not sure why the difference between SSB/SSG switching and CSSB would be so great in terms of ability to fight Zamasu if they both put out the same power.

Also, if the scaling is so low, I'm not sure how to fit Vegeta's rage form or Black's Super Saiyan form.
I thought the obvious implication there was that Vegeta had the power of CSSB at the moment he strikes, but nothing else- if Zamasu hit him before he could do anything he'd die just as easily as a SSG, and if he had to actually trade blows with Zamasu, he'd be completely unable to even touch him, since Zamasu would be moving at 100% speed continuously while Vegeta would be doing (say) 50% for everything but the moment his punch impacts. That's why Toyotaro emphasized that Zamasu was moving faster than Vegeta could see, why he had Zamasu one-punch Vegeta out of SSB using said speed blitz, and why Zamasu took care to mention that Vegeta and Goku "looked like they were holding still" to him. So Zamasu would still utterly bulldoze Vegeta in a straight fight, but would have trouble with Goku. That's how I took it, anyway.

As for Black's SS forms, it's pretty clear that his forms don't work like anyone else's, since Zamasu's regular body is comparable to SS1 Goku yet base Black immediately killed Goku-Zamasu seconds after taking his body.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:52 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Zamasu's regular body is comparable to SS1 Goku
Zamasu struggled against Kibito though. I'm pretty sure the Imortal Zamasu is far stronger than the present one, like in the Anime.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:40 pm

How strong do you guys make Goten & Trunks in relation to their dads?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:17 pm

Cross-posted from the Super thread:

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore and all their gains at this point are solely in refined forms and techniques, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not? That would match pretty well with Future Trunks saying that they don't power up as quickly as Black because they've "already trained their bodies to the absolute limit."
ekrolo2 wrote:How strong do you guys make Goten & Trunks in relation to their dads?
SS Goten and Trunks at 2.2-2.3 billion, SS Gohan and Vegeta at 2.8-3 billion, Goku and post-Babidi Vegeta at 3.75 billion. I think that's close enough to justify Trunks landing a punch on Vegeta and Gohan sweating and being pressured by Goten. I'm wondering if I shouldn't take seriously the "Goten's battle power is equal to Gohan's" tidbit though.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:21 pm

I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong do you guys make Goten & Trunks in relation to their dads?
About 75% of their parents. Enough to be impressive and justify the compliments, far enough to make them second fiddle to them and Gohan.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore and all their gains at this point are solely in refined forms and techniques, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not? That would match pretty well with Future Trunks saying that they don't power up as quickly as Black because they've "already trained their bodies to the absolute limit."
Since the Cell Arc, maybe even when they obtained SSJ I think their bases barely grew. They got stronger in the SSJ form by mastering it increasing it's power level and got upgrades with SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Then came along the God forms, in the manga the progression is based solely on the forms and their improvement. They go SSJG, to SSJB to Completed SSJB and finally Ultra Instinct/Vegeta's path.
The only possible contradiction is Whis having them train in Base, but that might just make it easier to obtain Ultra Instinct which seems to be the goal of his tutelage.

Trunks line, if it's the one I'm thinking, is talking about Zenkais and how Goku and Vegeta don't get them anymore. Which would make significant growth in base stop for them in the Namek arc.

Currently I think Base Goku during Namek is only marginally weaker than current Base Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:09 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
In regards to the anime or manga?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:55 am

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
In regards to the anime or manga?
Manga, might just be me projecting what's not there in the story but given the various means Blue has of improvement present there it doesn't seem too far fetched to me.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:50 am

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong do you guys make Goten & Trunks in relation to their dads?
Unlike most people i actually think they're stronge than their dads in equal forms, but not by much. Full Power Super Saiyan is supposed to be the limit of the Saiyan power and thanks to being hybrids, the boys should have a higher ceiling.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Cross-posted from the Super thread:

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore and all their gains at this point are solely in refined forms and techniques, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not? That would match pretty well with Future Trunks saying that they don't power up as quickly as Black because they've "already trained their bodies to the absolute limit."
I agree with this. They can't grow stronger anymore as shown by the lack of significant power ups, they can only improve via mastering and refining SSJB (Which leaded to them achieving PSSJB) and their techniques.

Curiously, this has been a thing since the Cell Games:
Image
I don't think SSJ Goku grew any stronger after this. He only achieved SSJ2 and 3 and mastered the 2. I dunno if the same aplies to their base forms though. I mean it should, but there's a shit ton of stuff implying their base forms have powered up a lot.
LightBing wrote:Since the Cell Arc, maybe even when they obtained SSJ I think their bases barely grew. They got stronger in the SSJ form by mastering it increasing it's power level and got upgrades with SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Then came along the God forms, in the manga the progression is based solely on the forms and their improvement. They go SSJG, to SSJB to Completed SSJB and finally Ultra Instinct/Vegeta's path.
The only possible contradiction is Whis having them train in Base, but that might just make it easier to obtain Ultra Instinct which seems to be the goal of his tutelage.

Trunks line, if it's the one I'm thinking, is talking about Zenkais and how Goku and Vegeta don't get them anymore. Which would make significant growth in base stop for them in the Namek arc.

Currently I think Base Goku during Namek is only marginally weaker than current Base Goku.
It makes a lot of sense for their training to be in base in order to master UI. Also explains why Whis says in the anime that they have to train in base despite everything else implying training transformed is better.

And curiously, Toriyama seems to agree with you when it comes to the base saiyans:
Toriyama when asked why he came up with Super Saiyan wrote:I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

This seems to imply that, after unlocking Super Saiyan, Base Goku never grew any stronger.

I kinda doubt this though. There's a lot of stuff in the Boo Arc and Super that imply their base forms are rather powerful, even more than Freeza.
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
It's the best way to go, certainly. I think this is made pretty clear when Vegeta trains in the Rosat but only comes out with a plan to increase Blue's effectiveness, not with a huge ass power up.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mattias_ » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:27 pm

Elmo - 15
Piccolo - 12

Freezer - 50

Vegeta - 48
Son Goku - 52

Broli - 53
Vegetto - 100
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POWER LEVELS:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:55 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
This is close to what I think the aforementioned training gap implies (plus, as noted, Vegeta spending a year in the ROSAT and "only" coming out with a way to maintain SSB's power instead of a huge power-up). Only, instead of them simply not powering up at all, their power-ups just become so incremental as to be negligible. Vegeta training for five years between Freeza and the Androids and going from 2 million to 5 million is a huge deal; Vegeta training for 5 years between Buu and Beerus and going from 75 million to 78 million isn't worth mentioning. Thus, any notable new gains come from obtaining or mastering forms. This would be why CSSB Goku is exactly equal to CSSB Vegeta at the ToP despite the former doing no training and the latter having 6 months in the ROSAT + 2 years of additional training in the gap.

This ties in well with Babidi drawing out Vegeta's power "beyond its limits" back in the Buu arc (and it doing surprisingly little) and Goku noting that he's close to his limit in the Cell arc and justifying not taking another ROSAT trip on those grounds (Afterlife training presumably let him go farther, but he still only equals limits-broken Vegeta in the same form).

This is actually making me wonder... in the Super outline, do you think the 6/10/15 scale from BOG and ROF is still in place? As far as I can see nothing actually contradicts it in the manga except for that brief Beerus vs CSSB Vegeta sparring match, and a lot of stuff supports it being present (like Iwne noting that SSG Goku was GoD-tier, GoD Toppo being equal to CSSB Vegeta after he activates his god ki, or Toriyama's outline stating that two SSBs could overwhelm Fused Zamasu without his immortality).
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:11 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: This is actually making me wonder... in the Super outline, do you think the 6/10/15 scale from BOG and ROF is still in place? As far as I can see nothing actually contradicts it in the manga except for that brief Beerus vs CSSB Vegeta sparring match, and a lot of stuff supports it being present (like Iwne noting that SSG Goku was GoD-tier, GoD Toppo being equal to CSSB Vegeta after he activates his god ki, or Toriyama's outline stating that two SSBs could overwhelm Fused Zamasu without his immortality).
Maybe? I know there was a thread about a log scale which makes the BoG numbers work, more or less.
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