ekrolo2 wrote:How strong do you guys make Goten & Trunks in relation to their dads?
Unlike most people i actually think they're stronge than their dads in equal forms, but not by much. Full Power Super Saiyan is supposed to be the limit of the Saiyan power and thanks to being hybrids, the boys should have a higher ceiling.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Cross-posted from the Super thread:
Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore and all their gains at this point are solely in refined forms and techniques, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not? That would match pretty well with Future Trunks saying that they don't power up as quickly as Black because they've "already trained their bodies to the absolute limit."
I agree with this. They can't grow stronger anymore as shown by the lack of significant power ups, they can only improve via mastering and refining SSJB (Which leaded to them achieving PSSJB) and their techniques.
Curiously, this has been a thing since the Cell Games:
I don't think SSJ Goku grew any stronger after this. He only achieved SSJ2 and 3 and mastered the 2. I dunno if the same aplies to their base forms though. I mean it should, but there's a shit ton of stuff implying their base forms have powered up a lot.
LightBing wrote:Since the Cell Arc, maybe even when they obtained SSJ I think their bases barely grew. They got stronger in the SSJ form by mastering it increasing it's power level and got upgrades with SSJ2 and SSJ3.
Then came along the God forms, in the manga the progression is based solely on the forms and their improvement. They go SSJG, to SSJB to Completed SSJB and finally Ultra Instinct/Vegeta's path.
The only possible contradiction is Whis having them train in Base, but that might just make it easier to obtain Ultra Instinct which seems to be the goal of his tutelage.
Trunks line, if it's the one I'm thinking, is talking about Zenkais and how Goku and Vegeta don't get them anymore. Which would make significant growth in base stop for them in the Namek arc.
Currently I think Base Goku during Namek is only marginally weaker than current Base Goku.
It makes a lot of sense for their training to be in base in order to master UI. Also explains why Whis says in the anime that they have to train in base despite everything else implying training transformed is better.
And curiously, Toriyama seems to agree with you when it comes to the base saiyans:
Toriyama when asked why he came up with Super Saiyan wrote:I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/
This seems to imply that, after unlocking Super Saiyan, Base Goku never grew any stronger.
I kinda doubt this though. There's a lot of stuff in the Boo Arc and Super that imply their base forms are rather powerful, even more than Freeza.
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm starting to lean towards the idea Goku and Vegeta's regular ki states stopped powering up entirely and their training so far is solely there to power up Blue, increasing its multiplier through various means.
It's the best way to go, certainly. I think this is made pretty clear when Vegeta trains in the Rosat but only comes out with a plan to increase Blue's effectiveness, not with a huge ass power up.