Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

Here are some of my levels from Freeza Arc. Feel free to critique.

[spoiler]Kuririn: 250,000
Gohan: 300,000
Piccolo (Weighted): 270,000
Vegeta: 480,000
Freeza (1st form): 530,000
Freeza (2nd form): 1,060,000
Gohan (Enraged): 900,000
Freeza (Powered up): 1,300,000
Kuririn (Further power up): 500,000
Gohan (Zenkai): 900,000
Piccolo (Merged): 1,350,000
Freeza (Full Power): 1,600,000
Piccolo (Full Power): 1,687,500
Freeza (3rd form): 2,400,000
Gohan (Enraged): 1,800,000
Gohan's Masenko: 2,250,000
Freeza (Final Form): 3,600,000
Vegeta (Zenkai): 3,600,000
Freeza (Tooling Vegeta): 4,800,000
Vegeta's Garlic Gun: 5,400,000
Freeza (Kicking the blast): 6,000,000
Goku (Warming up): 6,000,000
Freeza (Handless): 8,000,000
Goku (Full Power): 7,500,000
50% Freeza: 180,000,000
Kaioken x10 Goku: 75,000,000
Kaioken x20 Goku: 150,000,000
Spirit Bomb: 225,000,000
SSJ Goku: 375,000,000
Full Power Freeza: 360,000,000 and falling[/spoiler]

You think Freeza (warming up vs Goku) is a bigger level than what he used to tool Vegeta?

Well, why not? It's never implied he powered down after that.

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. It's worthy noting that Freeza was easily kicked innthe face by Goku and had all of his death beams easily shrugged off by him, but then later we saw how they fought evenly, with Freeza having a slight edge, probably. So, it's possible that the level Freeza was using in his warm up vs Goku was higher than the one he used to kick Vegeta's ass. And then, he used his full initial level when he decided to fight Goku without his hands. To summarize, Freeza could have used 4 different levels before going to 50%:

1 --> his initial level, the one in which he was dodging everyone with extreme ease, and the one to which Vegeta thought he had some chance against;

2 --> the level he used to kick Vegeta's ass. He also used this level in his initial scuffle against Goku, but got the worse into it;

3 --> then, seeing Goku is better than he thought, he upped it even more still, to his "warm up" level. In this level he could fight evenly against base "warm up" Goku, even better, he had a slight advantage;

4 --> he decided, then, to stop warming up and fight for real, which happened to still not be his true power. He used this level to fight full power base Goku, and had a big enough advantage to keep up a fight without using his hands.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You think Freeza (warming up vs Goku) is a bigger level than what he used to tool Vegeta?

Well, why not? It's never implied he powered down after that.

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. It's worthy noting that Freeza was easily kicked innthe face by Goku and had all of his death beams easily shrugged off by him, but then later we saw how they fought evenly, with Freeza having a slight edge, probably. So, it's possible that the level Freeza was using in his warm up vs Goku was higher than the one he used to kick Vegeta's ass. And then, he used his full initial level when he decided to fight Goku without his hands. To summarize, Freeza could have used 4 different levels before going to 50%:

1 --> his initial level, the one in which he was dodging everyone with extreme ease, and the one to which Vegeta thought he had some chance against;

2 --> the level he used to kick Vegeta's ass. He also used this level in his initial scuffle against Goku, but got the worse into it;

3 --> then, seeing Goku is better than he thought, he upped it even more still, to his "warm up" level. In this level he could fight evenly against base "warm up" Goku, even better, he had a slight advantage;

4 --> he decided, then, to stop warming up and fight for real, which happened to still not be his true power. He used this level to fight full power base Goku, and had a big enough advantage to keep up a fight without using his hands.

Yeah, that's true. When you remember how many levels Freeza showed the 3,000,000 from the Daiz is pretty much crippled.
The Freeza Vegeta was confident on taking was only 1% of Freeza's power IMO. If 2nd and 3rd form Freeza are stronger than 1% Freeza, what's the point in using them? Why not go from 1st form to Final Form? With that said, Goku has to be at least 2x Vegeta. Here are the levels i think Freeza used:

1) His initial power. Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn can't even see him, while Vegeta can and is confident on fighting him. He seems a bit nervous though, implying he doesn't has a big gap over Freeza, assuming he has at all.

2) Now Vegeta can't even see him, but a powered up blast may be able to do the job. 33% advantage sounds good, considering Kui couldn't see Vegeta.

3) The level he used to bounce Vegeta's attack back. IMO he used that level against warm up Goku, considering he failed to keep up with Goku using the level he speedblitzed Vegeta.

4) Against full power Goku. Advantage enough to take Goku without his hands, but he still has a lot of trouble.

[DanielSSJ]

Yeah, that's true. When you remember how many levels Freeza showed the 3,000,000 from the Daiz is pretty much crippled.
The Freeza Vegeta was confident on taking was only 1% of Freeza's power IMO. If 2nd and 3rd form Freeza are stronger than 1% Freeza, what's the point in using them? Why not go from 1st form to Final Form? With that said, Goku has to be at least 2x Vegeta. Here are the levels i think Freeza used:

1) His initial power. Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn can't even see him, while Vegeta can and is confident on fighting him. He seems a bit nervous though, implying he doesn't has a big gap over Freeza, assuming he has at all.

2) Now Vegeta can't even see him, but a powered up blast may be able to do the job. 33% advantage sounds good, considering Kui couldn't see Vegeta.

3) The level he used to bounce Vegeta's attack back. IMO he used that level against warm up Goku, considering he failed to keep up with Goku using the level he speedblitzed Vegeta.

4) Against full power Goku. Advantage enough to take Goku without his hands, but he still has a lot of trouble.

I think the difference between all of Freeza's initial "levels" have more to do with how much effort Freeza's putting forth, rather than how much he is powering up. His battle power might've been about 3 or 4 million the whole time, but he wasn't trying very hard until Goku showed up and made him power up to 50%. And I don't see how which form of Freeza constitutes 1% of his full power has to do with anything, unless you're referencing the dub's "1% line".

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, that's true. When you remember how many levels Freeza showed the 3,000,000 from the Daiz is pretty much crippled.
The Freeza Vegeta was confident on taking was only 1% of Freeza's power IMO. If 2nd and 3rd form Freeza are stronger than 1% Freeza, what's the point in using them? Why not go from 1st form to Final Form? With that said, Goku has to be at least 2x Vegeta. Here are the levels i think Freeza used:

1) His initial power. Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn can't even see him, while Vegeta can and is confident on fighting him. He seems a bit nervous though, implying he doesn't has a big gap over Freeza, assuming he has at all.

2) Now Vegeta can't even see him, but a powered up blast may be able to do the job. 33% advantage sounds good, considering Kui couldn't see Vegeta.

3) The level he used to bounce Vegeta's attack back. IMO he used that level against warm up Goku, considering he failed to keep up with Goku using the level he speedblitzed Vegeta.

4) Against full power Goku. Advantage enough to take Goku without his hands, but he still has a lot of trouble.

I think the difference between all of Freeza's initial "levels" have more to do with how much effort Freeza's putting forth, rather than how much he is powering up. His battle power might've been about 3 or 4 million the whole time, but he wasn't trying very hard until Goku showed up and made him power up to 50%. And I don't see how which form of Freeza constitutes 1% of his full power has to do with anything, unless you're referencing the dub's "1% line".

Yeah, i can see the change during the fight with Goku being a change of effort, but i dunno about his power ups at Vegeta. Vegeta was able to see Freeza, but when they started fighting Vegeta couldn't track him anymore. And when Vegeta launches his blast, Piccolo says "Are you trying to wipe out the planet along with him?" what implies the blast should be able to finalize Freeza at the current level he was. But you can still fit things pretty close to the Daiz numbers with some effort.
About the 1% thing, let me explain it: Freeza's 1st form is 530k, right? His 2nd form is about 1 million and 3rd may be 2 millions. If Freeza's 1% is about 1 million, what's the point of using all those forms? Why don't go from 1st form to 1% of his final form?

[DanielSSJ]

Yeah, i can see the change during the fight with Goku being a change of effort, but i dunno about his power ups at Vegeta. Vegeta was able to see Freeza, but when they started fighting Vegeta couldn't track him anymore. And when Vegeta launches his blast, Piccolo says "Are you trying to wipe out the planet along with him?" what implies the blast should be able to finalize Freeza at the current level he was. But you can still fit things pretty close to the Daiz numbers with some effort.
About the 1% thing, let me explain it: Freeza's 1st form is 530k, right? His 2nd form is about 1 million and 3rd may be 2 millions. If Freeza's 1% is about 1 million, what's the point of using all those forms? Why don't go from 1st form to 1% of his final form?

I'm sorry, but I still don't see the significance of 1% of Freeza's strength is. What does it matter if his second form is 1%, 5%, or 0.002% of his full power? It seems like an arbitrary marker that doesn't matter, to me.
Anyways the reason why Freeza bothers to use the lower forms instead of just going from first to final is because he wanted to toy with his opponents. He keeps himself to a level that they might be able to beat if they get lucky, but as soon as it looks like he might be in over his head, he transforms again, taking that hope and keeping it just out of reach.
From an out-of-universe perspective, it's supposed to be a way of maximizing the amount of drama, but it ends up just being a tennis match. Freeza transforms, and the ball is in his court. Piccolo arrives, and the ball is in the heroes court. Freeza transforms again, and the ball's back in his. Gohan snaps, and the ball is back in theirs. Rinse and repeat until Goku goes Super Saiyan.

[Noah]

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

[DanielSSJ]

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

He might not have improved quite as much as Goku and Vegeta did, but I do think he did make some moderate improvements between Cell and Boo. I personally have him going from a 1.2 billion to a 1.8 billion between arcs.

[dragonball0900]

Why wouldn't Gohan get an angry boost for Piccolo if he did so with Krillin? Piccolo was in the risk of dying, and Gohan really likes Piccolo, Gohan was completely mad at that point it can be seen by how he was attacking Frieza.

If Gohan was that strong, he would've try to tell Piccolo that he was sure to be now strong enough to face Frieza, but he didn't say anything and just let Piccolo fight. The reason why Frieza transformed is because he wanted them to know his Final Form. He did say that he could kill everyone at that moment if he wanted to, even after knowing Gohan's strenght. Also, I don't think Piccolo was going by not wanting Gohan to be in danger, since the more number of people are there to distract Frieza, the better for Goku to charge his Spirit Bomb to defeat him. They have do it for the benefit of saving themselves against the power Frieza.

Also, Goku didn't know how strong Piccolo and Vegeta would've become if he hadn't even sense them at Earth. Goku would've only have a vague idea of them judging by what he sensed from them at Namek, meaning that Piccolo is in fact stronger than Gohan even at Namek.

It's stated that the power only keeps rising when fighting. If the contrary happens, then neither him or Gohan would have gotten weaker in the Buu arc.

There's not really proof for Gohan's strenght (no rage boosts). And the humans being at the tier of 1st Form Frieza and much higher than Ginyu seems exagerated in my opinion. Of course, there's nothing wrong at all for you to think that, but we just can't be certain that they "should" reach that level, it just seems very unlikely, at least for me.

Perhaps it's because he thought Kuririn died? Gohan looked mad, but he wasn't freaking out like when he pummeled 2nd form Freeza. Both Piccolo, Freeza and Gohan himself talks like that's his regular full power:

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P9.2
Freeza: “That’s strange…That squirt shouldn’t have had so much battle power…He’s become like a different person after returning to life from the brink of death…”

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P10.2-3
Context: after Freeza repels Gohan’s attack
Piccolo: “He bounced that back, but…You’ve become strong, Gohan…I’m happy…”
Gohan: “B-but it wasn’t any use…I put all my force into that, but…It didn’t affect Freeza…”

Freeza was bluffing. He even said Vegeta and Gohan were growing too strong before he said he was going to transform:

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P10.5
Freeza: “I don’t believe stupid legends like the Super Saiyan, the strongest in history, but I don’t feel too good…The squirt and Vegeta really are steadily getting stronger, after all…”

And i still think Piccolo was doing bravado, considering Gohan's feats against 3rd form Freeza.

Considering Piccolo is supposed to be ~ Base Namek Goku and Gohan should be a bit under 3rd form Freeza by this point, i'm sure Goku can tell the difference between their current powers.

What are you talking about? Vegeta said Gohan and Kuririn's power was raising, and it's implied it was the Potential Unlock Guru gave them.

How would Vegeta say Kuririn is useful against Freeza if he can't even beat Ginyu? Why would Tenshinhan and Yamcha receive gains different from the gains Piccolo did? That's nonsense. How strong you have the humans on the Cell Arc? Depending on their power you could bump the Mecha Arc humans and give them smaller boosts for the 3 years.

Well to be fair, maybe you're right that Gohan could be on that level, but at the same time there's nothing implying that he can't be below First Form Frieza. Gohan should be angry at the point in attacking Third Form Frieza, it just wouldn't make sense if he wasn't. Those comments Piccolo, Frieza and Gohan himself made could be referring to Gohan's angry powers.

Vegeta said that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising, but surely they would when they were fighting only. If that's not the case then tell me why Gohan got weaker during the 7 years of training? As well as how Gohan was weaker than Piccolo at the Mecha Frieza arc, when he should have increased.

Krillin would be useful as distractions and skills. Just look at the fight of Second Form Frieza when Krillin manages to hold his own against him and Vegeta was nearly around First Form Frieza. He can't beat him by himself, so he has to rely on Gohan and Krillin's skills to fight. Just because the fighters are weak, it doesn't mean they can't do anything. Super also tells this.

I don't have Piccolo increasing to above half of First Form Frieza. It wouldn't make sense for that to happen. At least in my opinion, Piccolo reached the 50,000 mark. Of course you can indeed make him above 200,000 if you want to take Nail's words seriously. You can also give the humans the level you want. My point is, my numbers don't really seem to contradict anything, neither yours, it's all a matter of opinion. I just don't think the humans reached Captain Ginyu's level yet (with Krillin only surpassing him for a bit). My numbers for them in the Cell arc are indeed a minimum increase. I have Yamcha at 70,000, Tien at 125,000 and Krillin at 500,000 (being the only one who, thanks to Guru's potential unlock, increased his strenght a lot by training), but that doesn't mean they couldn't.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

He's a non factor trought thr Arc, so i thinm he barely improved if he improved at all. The fact he trains all the time doesn't mean he must be stronger, he can be only training to be on shape. I think he went from 54% of CG SSJ Goku to 60%, where i have CG Vegeta and Trunks, and that's about it.

[DanielSSJ]

Vegeta said that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising, but surely they would when they were fighting only. If that's not the case then tell me why Gohan got weaker during the 7 years of training? As well as how Gohan was weaker than Piccolo at the Mecha Frieza arc, when he should have increased.

I've always attributed Gohan's and Kuririn's steadily rising battle powers to be because the Grand Elder's power-up takes a while to take full effect. Hence Kuririn can go from 10,000 or so to being 75,000 according to that one V-Jump article. So that "steadily rising battle power" thing really wouldn't be a factor for the rest of the series. And to my knowledge, there's no indication that Gohan lost any power between Namek and Freeza's return.

Krillin would be useful as distractions and skills. Just look at the fight of Second Form Frieza when Krillin manages to hold his own against him and Vegeta was nearly around First Form Frieza. He can't beat him by himself, so he has to rely on Gohan and Krillin's skills to fight. Just because the fighters are weak, it doesn't mean they can't do anything. Super also tells this.

Kuririn never actually fights Freeza directly in the manga, though. He cuts off Freeza's tail when the latter wasn't paying attention, but that's about it.

I don't have Piccolo increasing to above half of First Form Frieza. It wouldn't make sense for that to happen. At least in my opinion, Piccolo reached the 50,000 mark. Of course you can indeed make him above 200,000 if you want to take Nail's words seriously. You can also give the humans the level you want.

Piccolo's increase is kinda confusing. It doesn't make any sense for him to get any appreciable amount stronger just by training at Kaio's for barely a week. Goku was training at increasing gravity levels, maxing out at 100Gs, was unknowingly taking advantage of his race's ability to get stronger from facing and overcoming death, and he had magical Senzu to assist in all that. And he only goes from around 9,000~10,000 (accounting for a power-up after the Saiyan fight) up to 90,000. Piccolo's working with just a static 10Gs, lacks the healing boosts, and lacks the instant recovery items, and he's supposed to go from below Nappa to half of First Form Freeza's power?!

On the other hand, we're looking at the series all at once, not as a syndicated work. Toriyama might've been influenced by the passage of real time, and mistakenly thought Piccolo was at Kaio's for much longer than he actually was. All in all, I think putting him just barely above Nail is probably the best way to do things. It's still pretty crazy that he could get that powerful, but a 15 fold boost is easier to swallow than a 70 fold one.

[apex_pretador]

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

For me, he goes from being below a cell junior to about even with CG Goku

[Kaboom]

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

He improved, but only moderately. He's not the type to stop training, but in an era of peace with no pressing crisis he's not going to make massive, amazing gains.

I expertly arbitrarily have him going from 1.2 billion at the Cell Games (roughly even with "Super Vegeta") to 1.8 billion by the Boo arc. For comparison, Kaioshin is 2.5 and the adult Super Saiyans range from about 3.5 to 4.5.

[dragonball0900]

Vegeta said that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising, but surely they would when they were fighting only. If that's not the case then tell me why Gohan got weaker during the 7 years of training? As well as how Gohan was weaker than Piccolo at the Mecha Frieza arc, when he should have increased.

I've always attributed Gohan's and Kuririn's steadily rising battle powers to be because the Grand Elder's power-up takes a while to take full effect. Hence Kuririn can go from 10,000 or so to being 75,000 according to that one V-Jump article. So that "steadily rising battle power" thing really wouldn't be a factor for the rest of the series. And to my knowledge, there's no indication that Gohan lost any power between Namek and Freeza's return.

Krillin would be useful as distractions and skills. Just look at the fight of Second Form Frieza when Krillin manages to hold his own against him and Vegeta was nearly around First Form Frieza. He can't beat him by himself, so he has to rely on Gohan and Krillin's skills to fight. Just because the fighters are weak, it doesn't mean they can't do anything. Super also tells this.

Kuririn never actually fights Freeza directly in the manga, though. He cuts off Freeza's tail when the latter wasn't paying attention, but that's about it.

I don't have Piccolo increasing to above half of First Form Frieza. It wouldn't make sense for that to happen. At least in my opinion, Piccolo reached the 50,000 mark. Of course you can indeed make him above 200,000 if you want to take Nail's words seriously. You can also give the humans the level you want.

Piccolo's increase is kinda confusing. It doesn't make any sense for him to get any appreciable amount stronger just by training at Kaio's for barely a week. Goku was training at increasing gravity levels, maxing out at 100Gs, was unknowingly taking advantage of his race's ability to get stronger from facing and overcoming death, and he had magical Senzu to assist in all that. And he only goes from around 9,000~10,000 (accounting for a power-up after the Saiyan fight) up to 90,000. Piccolo's working with just a static 10Gs, lacks the healing boosts, and lacks the instant recovery items, and he's supposed to go from below Nappa to half of First Form Freeza's power?!

On the other hand, we're looking at the series all at once, not as a syndicated work. Toriyama might've been influenced by the passage of real time, and mistakenly thought Piccolo was at Kaio's for much longer than he actually was. All in all, I think putting him just barely above Nail is probably the best way to do things. It's still pretty crazy that he could get that powerful, but a 15 fold boost is easier to swallow than a 70 fold one.

Yeah, I agree. But there's also the fact that Krillin probably to 75,000 and that's it. There's no reason to think that Krillin is well over First Form Frieza by the time of the Mecha Frieza arc. With Gohan, I just don't think he is above Third Form Frieza in the Namek and Mecha Frieza arc considering that he was stated to be below Piccolo and didn't train until Frieza arrives on Earth, and even if he did train, I doubt he surpassed Second Form Frieza, much less Third Form.

That's just what I was referring to with Krillin. Doing something while villian gets distracted. That's what he can easily do with First Form Frieza too.

And with Piccolo, I agree with you. That's where I also put him, hence the 50,000 level I give to him.

How much you guys have Piccolo in the Boo arc? He didn't improve much, right?

Piccolo certainly improved his strenght, though his improvements are not as much as Goku's (who trained in the afterlife) or Vegeta's (who trained in gravity and with a lot of determination to surpass Goku). Goku got an 1.5 increase, Vegeta nearly a double increase, while Piccolo just got around 1.4 increase.

But he certainly got stronger. Initially from being stronger than ASSJ Vegeta and weaker than 50% Cell Games Goku, to being stronger than SSJ Future Trunks and Vegeta from the Cell Games, as well as rivalling a Cell Jr, yet still weaker than Kaioshin, SSJ Cell Games Goku (Full Power), and the Buu arc SSJs.

My levels for Cell Games Piccolo to Buu Arc Piccolo are 1,400,000,000 to a bit below 2,000,000,000.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well to be fair, maybe you're right that Gohan could be on that level, but at the same time there's nothing implying that he can't be below First Form Frieza. Gohan should be angry at the point in attacking Third Form Frieza, it just wouldn't make sense if he wasn't. Those comments Piccolo, Frieza and Gohan himself made could be referring to Gohan's angry powers.

Vegeta said that Gohan and Krillin's powers were rising, but surely they would when they were fighting only. If that's not the case then tell me why Gohan got weaker during the 7 years of training? As well as how Gohan was weaker than Piccolo at the Mecha Frieza arc, when he should have increased.

Krillin would be useful as distractions and skills. Just look at the fight of Second Form Frieza when Krillin manages to hold his own against him and Vegeta was nearly around First Form Frieza. He can't beat him by himself, so he has to rely on Gohan and Krillin's skills to fight. Just because the fighters are weak, it doesn't mean they can't do anything. Super also tells this.

I don't have Piccolo increasing to above half of First Form Frieza. It wouldn't make sense for that to happen. At least in my opinion, Piccolo reached the 50,000 mark. Of course you can indeed make him above 200,000 if you want to take Nail's words seriously. You can also give the humans the level you want. My point is, my numbers don't really seem to contradict anything, neither yours, it's all a matter of opinion. I just don't think the humans reached Captain Ginyu's level yet (with Krillin only surpassing him for a bit). My numbers for them in the Cell arc are indeed a minimum increase. I have Yamcha at 70,000, Tien at 125,000 and Krillin at 500,000 (being the only one who, thanks to Guru's potential unlock, increased his strenght a lot by training), but that doesn't mean they couldn't.

Yeah, since you belive so badly Gohan was enraged, go for it. I still don't buy it, but seems like i can't prove you wrong. He shouldn't be under 1st Form Freeza, though. He was the only one to stand up there against 2nd form Freeza and made Vegeta hopeful, if he was weaker than 1st form Freeza Vegeta would be like "Take our ass out of there, you can't even beat me"

The potential unlock doesn't mean their power will grow forever. It hits a all some time, otherwise Gohan would be in his Chou form by the Cell Arc.

I agree with this. But how could Kuririn be useful if he can't even track Freeza? I dunno even Ginyu could track Freeza's movements.

I have struggled with this idea too tbh. Do you think Kamiccolo is 2x Piccolo? If you don't then you don't have to put Piccolo so high. I don't have a trouble with this tbh, considering Piccolo's boosts on the Rosat and between FnF and the Tournament on the Manga, where he never sparred with Gohan to get that strong.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, since you belive so badly Gohan was enraged, go for it. I still don't buy it, but seems like i can't prove you wrong. He shouldn't be under 1st Form Freeza, though. He was the only one to stand up there against 2nd form Freeza and made Vegeta hopeful, if he was weaker than 1st form Freeza Vegeta would be like "Take our ass out of there, you can't even beat me"

The potential unlock doesn't mean their power will grow forever. It hits a all some time, otherwise Gohan would be in his Chou form by the Cell Arc.

I agree with this. But how could Kuririn be useful if he can't even track Freeza? I dunno even Ginyu could track Freeza's movements.

I have struggled with this idea too tbh. Do you think Kamiccolo is 2x Piccolo? If you don't then you don't have to put Piccolo so high. I don't have a trouble with this tbh, considering Piccolo's boosts on the Rosat and between FnF and the Tournament on the Manga, where he never sparred with Gohan to get that strong.

Vegeta could be hopeful because of Gohan's rage boosts. He was already a witness from it.

Yeah, it doesn't grow forever, but who says that it kept rising during the interval between the Namek and the Mecha Frieza arc? There's never a statement that Gohan increased in strenght. There's no statement that happened otherwise. Since there's no statement that he increased his strenght or not, then I don't think my list is wrong with that.

Just because Krillin is too weak in comparison it doesn't mean he can indeed help. There's the fight vs Nappa, where Krillin is weak in comparison to Piccolo and Nappa, yet he still manages to get hits to Nappa. And Vegeta had no other option than to have Gohan and Krillin for help. There has to be instances too that Krillin can be capable of doing something to Frieza, such as moments where Frieza is not moving, etc.

I always have the thought that the reason Piccolo had a lot of high boosts is because of his fusion with Nail, and the theory that he had the potential already unlocked by Guru.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta could be hopeful because of Gohan's rage boosts. He was already a witness from it.

Yeah, it doesn't grow forever, but who says that it kept rising during the interval between the Namek and the Mecha Frieza arc? There's never a statement that Gohan increased in strenght. There's no statement that happened otherwise. Since there's no statement that he increased his strenght or not, then I don't think my list is wrong with that.

Just because Krillin is too weak in comparison it doesn't mean he can indeed help. There's the fight vs Nappa, where Krillin is weak in comparison to Piccolo and Nappa, yet he still manages to get hits to Nappa. And Vegeta had no other option than to have Gohan and Krillin for help. There has to be instances too that Krillin can be capable of doing something to Frieza, such as moments where Frieza is not moving, etc.

I always have the thought that the reason Piccolo had a lot of high boosts is because of his fusion with Nail, and the theory that he had the potential already unlocked by Guru.

Would his rage boost be the same, though? Last time he was mad because Kuririn was supposedly dead. He can't just go apeshit the moment he wants.

I never said his power increased between Arcs. I said he should be stronger than what you have them based on how strong they were on the last Arc.

That's why i didn't mention his increases during the 3 years. Aren't those boosts to bloated, though? He picks up SSJs who trained two years in only one year, and in Super he goes from Cell Jr level to above Super Buu training by his own. I don't see a problem with him going from below Nappa to above Ginyu.
Putting Piccolo so lows is ignoring something flat out stated that has zero things to imply otherwise. It's not because seems bloated that is wrong. Guru implies the Nameless Namekian division cutted his power by two:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

And Nail says Piccolo would beat Freeza if he was one with Kami:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

This is ignoring flat out stated powers, like Kuririn > Tenshinhan or SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

[DanielSSJ]

That's why i didn't mention his increases during the 3 years. Aren't those boosts to bloated, though? He picks up SSJs who trained two years in only one year, and in Super he goes from Cell Jr level to above Super Buu training by his own. I don't see a problem with him going from below Nappa to above Ginyu.
Putting Piccolo so lows is ignoring something flat out stated that has zero things to imply otherwise. It's not because seems bloated that is wrong. Guru implies the Nameless Namekian division cutted his power by two:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

And Nail says Piccolo would beat Freeza if he was one with Kami:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

This is ignoring flat out stated powers, like Kuririn > Tenshinhan or SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

I'm starting to lean toward the idea that the Great Elder was referring to Piccolo's and God's potential for power being divided in half, and that joining together at that moment might've done more than just double Piccolo's power. Either that, or Nail meant that if they had joined together and then trained, they would've had a shot against Freeza. I attribute Piccolo's massive gains between the Freeza arc and the Androids arc to partially be a result of his merging with Nail. In that, possessing the combined potential of two Warrior Type Namekians and training with a Super Saiyan led to some amazing power growth.

And the Gotenks/Goku example is kind of suspect since Goku was already lying about being weaker than Fat Boo.

[ahill1]

but in an era of peace with no pressing crisis he's not going to make massive, amazing gains.

Piccolo from Freeza saga vs Piccolo from Trunks saga

[Kaboom]

but in an era of peace with no pressing crisis he's not going to make massive, amazing gains.

Piccolo from Freeza saga vs Piccolo from Trunks saga

Yeah, same deal, pretty much. We don't know how much stronger he got then, but it's no doubt nothing compared to what he gained from training with a Super Saiyan for an imminent threat.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's why i didn't mention his increases during the 3 years. Aren't those boosts to bloated, though? He picks up SSJs who trained two years in only one year, and in Super he goes from Cell Jr level to above Super Buu training by his own. I don't see a problem with him going from below Nappa to above Ginyu.
Putting Piccolo so lows is ignoring something flat out stated that has zero things to imply otherwise. It's not because seems bloated that is wrong. Guru implies the Nameless Namekian division cutted his power by two:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

And Nail says Piccolo would beat Freeza if he was one with Kami:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

This is ignoring flat out stated powers, like Kuririn > Tenshinhan or SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

I'm starting to lean toward the idea that the Great Elder was referring to Piccolo's and God's potential for power being divided in half, and that joining together at that moment might've done more than just double Piccolo's power. Either that, or Nail meant that if they had joined together and then trained, they would've had a shot against Freeza. I attribute Piccolo's massive gains between the Freeza arc and the Androids arc to partially be a result of his merging with Nail. In that, possessing the combined potential of two Warrior Type Namekians and training with a Super Saiyan led to some amazing power growth.

And the Gotenks/Goku example is kind of suspect since Goku was already lying about being weaker than Fat Boo.

Yeah, perhaps. I dunno, since Guru says power inseaf potential. The Nail one seems to be pushing it though. He's like "If you merge with God again you will surpass Freeza! Actually you have to train after that, something you can do without fusing, but i'm not telling ya this anyway!" Seems a bit lame tbh.
Even if the boost isn't really 2x, Piccolo can't be many times weaker than Freeza. Unless Ginyu was closer to Freeza then Piccolo (Pre Kami) was close to 17.

Talking about Gotenks post.