Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Seems like a retcon to me. I remember Trunks looking very young the first time he arrived and fought Goku. He was pretty short. I'm leaning more towards him being in the future for 3 years for now.

I'm honestly not really sure what you're talking about. Looking back at the manga, Trunks isn't really drawn much shorter than Goku during their meeting.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Sure, Toriyama is hardly consistent with character height (Kuririn going from reaching up to Goku's chest to standing only a bit taller than a five-year-old, but I can't really think of any instance where Trunks is significantly shorter than Goku, aside from when he's actually a kid. He does get a growth spurt in the Room of Spirit and Time, which lends credence to the idea that he wasn't 3 years older than he was in his debut.

[DBZ Macky]

Seems like a retcon to me. I remember Trunks looking very young the first time he arrived and fought Goku. He was pretty short. I'm leaning more towards him being in the future for 3 years for now.

I'm honestly not really sure what you're talking about. Looking back at the manga, Trunks isn't really drawn much shorter than Goku during their meeting.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Sure, Toriyama is hardly consistent with character height (Kuririn going from reaching up to Goku's chest to standing only a bit taller than a five-year-old, but I can't really think of any instance where Trunks is significantly shorter than Goku, aside from when he's actually a kid. He does get a growth spurt in the Room of Spirit and Time, which lends credence to the idea that he wasn't 3 years older than he was in his debut.

I didn't really have any reference when I made that comment. I only faintly remembered some shots from the Anime and some video game models from Shin Budokai, etc. So it's no surprise really that I was wrong
It really is convenient to have a look at the Manga at times like this.

[Bullza]

While learning how to control the Super Saiyan transformation as well as learning what seems to be a pretty difficult teleportation technique, Goku still manages to raise his battle power immensely when he really doesn't even have any actual threat to motivate him to train that hard. Yet when he does have sparring partners and an immediate threat to motivate him, he doesn't improve as much? Not to mention that he'd be able to focus more on increasing his battle power than mastering the Instant Transmission or learning how to tap into SS at will. I don't think Goku improved that much and only became marginally stronger than his Namek era self.

I actually agree, that was one of the things I'd noticed and was going to change before posting it but didn't bother for now but yeah essentially I have Goku improving my a greater proportion by the Trunks saga than by the Android saga which didn't make sense so I do need to change that.

It doesn't seem like Goku should have got much stronger on Yadrat but people seem to think he did. Mecha Frieza is supposed to be stronger, possibly than even Namek SSJ Goku but SSJ Trunks beats him so easily and even in the alternate timeline SSJ Goku still beats him.

So did they get a good chunk stronger or did Frieza not really get a chance in both timelines to power up fully and was taken out easier than he should have been.

[LightBing]

While learning how to control the Super Saiyan transformation as well as learning what seems to be a pretty difficult teleportation technique, Goku still manages to raise his battle power immensely when he really doesn't even have any actual threat to motivate him to train that hard. Yet when he does have sparring partners and an immediate threat to motivate him, he doesn't improve as much? Not to mention that he'd be able to focus more on increasing his battle power than mastering the Instant Transmission or learning how to tap into SS at will. I don't think Goku improved that much and only became marginally stronger than his Namek era self.

I actually agree, that was one of the things I'd noticed and was going to change before posting it but didn't bother for now but yeah essentially I have Goku improving my a greater proportion by the Trunks saga than by the Android saga which didn't make sense so I do need to change that.

It doesn't seem like Goku should have got much stronger on Yadrat but people seem to think he did. Mecha Frieza is supposed to be stronger, possibly than even Namek SSJ Goku but SSJ Trunks beats him so easily and even in the alternate timeline SSJ Goku still beats him.

So did they get a good chunk stronger or did Frieza not really get a chance in both timelines to power up fully and was taken out easier than he should have been.

There's a third option, Future Trunks was stronger than Goku and almost as strong as his Android Arc self. Otherwise his gains are pretty insane if we go by the idea that he waited 8 months before going back to the past and contradictory to some of his statements.
Like him saying he could hold his own against an individual Future Android, which could only happen if he fought them after travelling to the past, if we think he's was weaker than Goku.
Which is illogical. The whole premise of Trunk's Story is that he accepts the time-machine as the solution and puts his faith in the past, risking death doesn't make sense.

So logically this has to apply to the moment we saw in Trunks Story, which would make Trunks almost as strong as an individual Future Android when he meets Goku and the crew.
Note that nobody claimed that either Goku or Trunks were stronger than each other.

We have this quote:
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

Goku says Trunks wasn't serious and we saw how easily he handled Mecha Freeza. Remember that Trunks is super cautious, him telling Freeza to go all out says a lot about his superiority. Food for thought.

[Bullza]

Interesting, well he did fight the Androids prior to going back into the past. There was that scene in the manga where he fought them off-screen, then woke up in the hospital, and then went back to the past.

I suppose his strength in the Trunks saga could be comparable to Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta in the Android saga. Could be why he beat Frieza so easily.

Still Goku would have to be stronger because he did still beat Mecha Frieza and King Cold too.

[DBZ Macky]

Or maybe Freeza didn't power up much at all. It isn't directly implied anywhere that he was stronger than Goku on Namek.

Gohan says how Trunks Ki is "the same" as Goku's from Namek. While it doesn't necessarily mean that they have the exact same battle power, and it's pretty likely that he was only judging the quality of the SS Ki, it doesn't necessarily mean that Goku and Trunks' battle powers can't be equal either.

Future Gohan had hoped to be as strong as his father, which should put him below Yardrat Goku, who shouldn't be too much stronger than Namek Goku.

Bulma (Who can't sense Ki, but whatever) said that Trunks wasn't much different than Gohan when he died.
Implies that SS Trunks = SS Future Gohan.

The Future androids were fighting Gohan (and maybe Trunks) at less than 50% of their power. So the chain is clear for me:

Future Gohan (Initial) < Mecha Frieza < 50% Future Androids < Future Gohan (One-Arm) = SS Goku (Namek) = SS Trunks (Initial) < SS Goku (Yardrat)

[Bullza]

Frieza said he could probably beat him on his own. You could say he was bragging again but he did say he was more powerful and it's not like Goku on Namek was massively more powerful than Frieza on Namek either.

Android 17 fought Gohan at less than 50% the first time. Presumably it would have been considerably more against Gohan the second time and likely Trunks too if he were to be even stronger.

[ZombieVito]

I really find hard to believe Mecha Freeza surpassed Namek SSJ Goku. Why bring Cold if he did?

Now that I have more time.

As said above it would be most likely be insurance. Frieza said he could probably beat Goku now because he'd grown more powerful. So he wasn't certain which is probably why he brought King Cold along as he thought he'd have no chance against both.

Piccolo seems way to high in the CG to me. He admitted inferiority to the Cell that trashed Vegeta.

This one is interesting, I didn't think about that. Goku said he had no chance against Cell but of course that was after he got sense of what his true power was and he'd be comparing Piccolo to that.

But Piccolo probably wouldn't be aware of that true power would he? So he could be weaker than that Perfect Cell...He should be stronger than Super Vegeta in any case though if he would even think to ask at all.

He'd know how strong Vegeta was, he saw Cell wreck Vegeta so it'd be odd to ask Goku if he had a chance against Cell if he were weaker than that Vegeta.

SSJ Gohan and Cell's full power should be way higher

Any particular reason why you think so?

Fair points I guess. I just think 160 million seems high.

Piccolo wouldn't know and he didn't ask actually (only in the anime) but I do agree he should be stronger than Super Vegeta since he stood up to the Cell Juniors. I have him around 50% SSJ Goku.

Everyone was shocked at the power up Cell did when he showed his full power. By your numbers that was just a 10% increase, that's really tiny.

[LightBing]

Bulma (Who can't sense Ki, but whatever) said that Trunks wasn't much different than Gohan when he died.
Implies that SS Trunks = SS Future Gohan.

No way would Trunks risk fighting the Androids if he was only as strong Gohan, that would be suicide. He even trained for three years before facing them.
Like you said Bulma can't feel Ki, looking at the context she just doesn't her son to kill himself.

[jeffbr92]

How much is the gap between SSJ3 Vegetto and SSJ God Goku?

[Bullza]

Who should have the higher power level between the Perfect Cell that Vegeta fought or MSSJ Goku at 50%?

[ZombieVito]

Who should have the higher power level between the Perfect Cell that Vegeta fought or MSSJ Goku at 50%?

We can't say for sure. The only thing we know for sure is that 50% Goku is stronger than Vegeta. By how much is unknown.

I personally have Goku in between Vegeta and Cell.

[Bullza]

I took some of the comments people made into consideration and I've changed around the numbers, mainly I've just boosted them up and made some gaps a little larger. There's a limit to how much they can be boosted when taking into account Base Goku by the Battle of Gods saga was weaker than Frieza but it still fits for now.

Trunks Saga

Goku – 3,600,000 
Super Saiyan Goku – 180,000,000 

Trunks – 4,300,000 
Super Saiyan Trunks – 215,000,000 

Mecha Frieza – 160,000,000 
King Cold – 90,000,000 

Android Saga

Goku – 5,200,000 
Super Saiyan Goku – 260,000,000 
Super Saiyan Goku (Sick) – 210,000,000

Vegeta – 5,400,000 
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 270,000,000 

Trunks – 4,800,000 
Super Saiyan Trunks – 240,000,000 

Piccolo – 200,000,000 

Gohan – 4,000,000 
Krillin – 3,500,000 
Tien – 3,200,000 
Yamcha – 2,500,000 

Android 16 – 470,000,000
Android 17 – 375,000,000
Android 18 – 340,000,000

Android 19 – 50,000,000 
Android 19 (w/Goku’s energy) – 100,000,000 
Android 19 (w/Vegeta’s energy) – 140,000,000 

Android 20 – 80,000,000 
Android 20 (w/Vegeta’s energy) – 160,000,000 

Cell Saga

Vegeta – 16,000,000 
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 800,000,000 
Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta – 1,100,000,000 

Trunks – 15,000,000 
Super Saiyan Trunks – 750,000,000 
Super Saiyan Grade 2 Trunks – 1,000,000,000 
Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks – 1,500,000,000 

Piccolo – 200,000,000 
Piccolo (Fused with Kami) – 375,000,000

Android 16 – 480,000,000
Android 17 – 375,000,000
Android 18 – 340,000,000

Imperfect Cell – 300,000,000 
Imperfect Cell (Post Absorption) – 480,000,000
Semi Perfect Cell – 650,000,000 
Semi Perfect Cell (Powering Up) – 800,000,000 
Perfect Cell (Suppressed) – 1,400,000,000 

Cell Games Saga

Goku – 50,000,000 
Super Saiyan Goku – 2,500,000,000 

Gohan – 64,000,000 
Super Saiyan Gohan – 3,200,000,000 
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan – 6,400,000,000 

Vegeta – 36,000,000 
Super Saiyan Vegeta – 1,800,000,000 

Trunks – 34,000,000 
Super Saiyan Trunks – 1,700,000,000 

Piccolo – 1,200,000,000 

Cell Jr – 2,000,000,000 
Perfect Cell (Suppressed) – 2,800,000,000 
Perfect Cell (Full Power) – 3,500,000,000 
Perfect Cell (Buff) – 4,700,000,000 
Super Perfect Cell – 6,000,000,000

History of Trunks

Trunks – 4,300,000 
Super Saiyan Trunks – 215,000,000 

Future Gohan – 3,200,000 
Super Saiyan Future Gohan – 160,000,000 

Future Android 17 – 300,000,000 
Future Android 18 – 270,000,000

[ZombieVito]

Not bad Bullza, not bad at all. Looking forward to your Boo list.

I do have very minor nitpicks but that's just my personal headcanon like following what the Daizenshuu said about Gohan having a rage boost vs Cell or Kamiccolo being exactly a times 2 power up for regular Piccolo.

[Bullza]

Kamiccolo being exactly a times 2 power up for regular Piccolo.

I never heard that one before, where was this from? Is there a link to where that's said?

[ZombieVito]

Kamiccolo being exactly a times 2 power up for regular Piccolo.

I never heard that one before, where was this from? Is there a link to where that's said?

Sure, here's the quote:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

[Bullza]

Oh I see, I don't know how that'd really work because would he always have grown exactly twice as strong upon fusing with Kami?

In any case it's easy enough to put Kamicolo up to 380 million and lower Piccolo to 190 million (and lower #19 and #20 a bit) to get it to fit just for the sake of it.

[Analytic]

Like you said Bulma can't feel Ki, looking at the context she just doesn't her son to kill himself.

I don't think the statement would be there if it wasn't true. Trunks could've just been hasty in wanting to avenge Gohan.

[LightBing]

Like you said Bulma can't feel Ki, looking at the context she just doesn't her son to kill himself.

I don't think the statement would be there if it wasn't true. Trunks could've just been hasty in wanting to avenge Gohan.

The thing is the quote doesn't even needs to exist, Trunks get's his ass handled by the Androids. We don't need Bulma to inform us that Trunks is weaker than the Androids.
We know Trunks is stronger than Gohan because he says so himself and well... logic, he wouldn't commit suicide by fighting a losing battle. Even Bulma's quote corroborates this, she thinks Trunks isn't amazingly different than Gohan.

Then there's the fact that Trunks not long after destroyed Mecha Freeza, if he was equal to Gohan who admits himself to be weaker than Goku, at the very least he would struggle with the task.

Bulma's quote is in context a mother who doesn't want her son to die, much less when she just finished the time-machine, their perceived only hope. From a person who can't feel ki, condition that has been constantly shown in this series to make you incompetent made exponentially worse by the person in question not even being a fighter.
Not everything is to be taken literally.

[jeffbr92]

It could work having Grade II = 55x multiplier and Grade II = 60x?