Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dragonball0900]

Gohan and Kuririn's power were increasing in the time between the Ginyu fight and the Freeza fight as well, though. I don't buy Vegeta's nap increasing his power anyway, but that's another think.
And yeah, they can be anywhere 40-300k. Pesonally i think the 200-300k is better because Vegeta mentioned power, but anything above Monster Zarbon (Who wasn't considered useful, mind you) work. Vegeta only needs Kuririn to spam attacks and Gohan to get enraged to help him. The way Vegeta blasts 2nd form Freeza seems to imply Vegeta had sneak attacks in mind.

I agree with the sneak attacks, that's why I don't mind them having around 50K-80K during the early part of the Frieza fight, since they can still use a lot of tactics to win against a powerful 530,000 Frieza.

I don't think 20 being on pair with Trunks can work. It's pretty plain: Piccolo wouldn't consider 20 one of the expected Androids if he can't defeat Trunks.

I might actually change it now, although I don't think putting Android 20 equal to Trunks is wrong, since they are two androids and they can double team against him. It's not really wrong.

Why he doesn't say it then? The way he says it seems to imply 18, 17 and Kamiccolo are all about the same strength. I don't see any reason to complicate this tbh.

A 1.2 difference can also rival more than a 1.25 one (for example). Just look at this way, previously none of the others rivalled the androids in strenght at all, but Vegeta was the only one fighting better against one, and he did rival a bit to Android 18 with a 1.2 of difference, but should be no rival at all for 17, who is stronger. Piccolo in his weighted clothing passed from being no rival for any of the Androids, to be equal to Android 18 and at least able to fight Android 17 like how Vegeta fought Android 18. That for me is enough to say that he rivals the androids,

[ahill1]

Hey, Dragon Brothas. I wished to discuss something. We have this chain in the manga:

Son Goku = Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) > Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) > Piccolo Daimao 40% ( Old ) >> Son Goku = Tenshinhan > Roshi

How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)? That'd make Roshi above 50% of Tenshinhan's BoZ power. Maybe Roshi got way stronger past 22nd Budokai, and in a faster pace than the Z warriors did?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A 1.2 difference can also rival more than a 1.25 one (for example). Just look at this way, previously none of the others rivalled the androids in strenght at all, but Vegeta was the only one fighting better against one, and he did rival a bit to Android 18 with a 1.2 of difference, but should be no rival at all for 17, who is stronger. Piccolo in his weighted clothing passed from being no rival for any of the Androids, to be equal to Android 18 and at least able to fight Android 17 like how Vegeta fought Android 18. That for me is enough to say that he rivals the androids,

18 wasn't taking the fight seriously, though. When both started to go all out she started to dominate the fight to the point she tanked a punch on the guts and tanked a blast head on with only cosmetic damage, and at the end she said Vegeta was nothing special. 1.2-1.25x is already out of the rivaling range, see at Monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta. Monster Zarbon isn't much different from Zenkai Vegeta who was stated by Jeice to be nearing 30k, but he utterly bodied Vegeta.

How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)?

You don't.

Let's assume the scouter saw Roshi's Weighted Power somehow and work from there with minimalist gaps:
Roshi (22nd): 54
Tenshinhan (22nd): 56.25
Goku (22nd): 60
Old Daimao (<50%): 90
Old Daimao (100%): 187.5
Young Daimao (<50%): 216
Young Daimao (Full Power): 450

You know better than this, Ahill.

[ahill1]

A 1.2 difference can also rival more than a 1.25 one (for example). Just look at this way, previously none of the others rivalled the androids in strenght at all, but Vegeta was the only one fighting better against one, and he did rival a bit to Android 18 with a 1.2 of difference, but should be no rival at all for 17, who is stronger. Piccolo in his weighted clothing passed from being no rival for any of the Androids, to be equal to Android 18 and at least able to fight Android 17 like how Vegeta fought Android 18. That for me is enough to say that he rivals the androids,

18 wasn't taking the fight seriously, though. When both started to go all out she started to dominate the fight to the point she tanked a punch on the guts and tanked a blast head on with only cosmetic damage, and at the end she said Vegeta was nothing special. 1.2-1.25x is already out of the rivaling range, see at Monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta. Monster Zarbon isn't much different from Zenkai Vegeta who was stated by Jeice to be nearing 30k, but he utterly bodied Vegeta.

How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)?

You don't.

Let's assume the scouter saw Roshi's Weighted Power somehow and work from there with minimalist gaps:
Roshi (22nd): 54
Tenshinhan (22nd): 56.25
Goku (22nd): 60
Old Daimao (<50%): 90
Old Daimao (100%): 187.5
Young Daimao (<50%): 216
Young Daimao (Full Power): 450

You know better than this, Ahill.

Maybe Roshi did get that much stronger since the 22nd Tournament

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Maybe Roshi did get that much stronger since the 22nd Tournament

Meh, he just felt like himself. Not enough to turn into his DBS persona, though.

[Noah]

Would you give a multiplier to Ultra Instinct?

[apex_pretador]

Hey, Dragon Brothas. I wished to discuss something. We have this chain in the manga:

Son Goku = Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) > Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) > Piccolo Daimao 40% ( Old ) >> Son Goku = Tenshinhan > Roshi

How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)? That'd make Roshi above 50% of Tenshinhan's BoZ power. Maybe Roshi got way stronger past 22nd Budokai, and in a faster pace than the Z warriors did?

Roshi did drugs

Old daimao (full power) >= BoZ Roshi > old daimao (44%) > 23rd Roshi > Tien (original) > Roshi (22nd)

[dragonball0900]

18 wasn't taking the fight seriously, though. When both started to go all out she started to dominate the fight to the point she tanked a punch on the guts and tanked a blast head on with only cosmetic damage, and at the end she said Vegeta was nothing special. 1.2-1.25x is already out of the rivaling range, see at Monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta. Monster Zarbon isn't much different from Zenkai Vegeta who was stated by Jeice to be nearing 30k, but he utterly bodied Vegeta.

I know the 1.25x is a big difference, but I can see a 1.2 gap being one that the weaker opponent can be able to see the other's. Yeah the weaker one can still lose pretty badly, but it would be a much better fight. If Android 17 didn't go full power against Weighted Piccolo, I'm pretty sure

Given Piccolo's great skill and intelligence I'm sure he can rival Android 17, at least in the latter's non full power. I can't see why there's need to change the x1.267 gap between weighted and unweighted Piccolo, he rivals Android 18 and is at least much closer to Android 17 than he was before.

And if you want the statement to still be more true, then why not just simply say that Android 16 was talking about Piccolo's probable unweighted power? As I said before, we don't really know how Android 16's scouter works in comparison to the Frieza's scouters. Just making Android 18 at 340,000,000, Android 17 stays at 360,000,000, and Piccolo at 380,000,000, and it can work fine too.

[dbgtFO]

...

Turns out LightBing's been right all along
Goku < Trunks pre Android Arc, confirmed

[DanielSSJ]

Turns out LightBing's been right all along
Goku < Trunks pre Android Arc, confirmed

Looks like I'm going to need to alter my battle power list. Speaking of revelations, apparently compatibility does factor into Fusion (the Potara method, anyways). I feel certainly vindicated.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

...

Turns out LightBing's been right all along
Goku < Trunks pre Android Arc, confirmed

This is as canon as Ocean dub calling Bardock a brilliant scientist, though.

[DanielSSJ]

This is as canon as Ocean dub calling Bardock a brilliant scientist, though.

It doesn't contradict anything, as far as I know. Neither the manga, the anime, nor the data books take a stance on the Goku vs. Trunks issue, so I don't see a reason to throw it out entirely.

[LightBing]

...

Turns out LightBing's been right all along
Goku < Trunks pre Android Arc, confirmed

Apparently that is some weird VHS game from 1992. I guess technically it's official since it was made by Toei.

Even if this supports my view I rather people listen to the actual arguments I made; instead of accepting it as the gospel because some remotely official source, kinda but not really, confirmed it(it didn't).
Only Mr.Toriyama should have God's Word and even then, if what he says contradicts the logic of his own manga we should point the finger. Although he can do what he wants because he made Dragon Ball up.

As quickly as I can the explanation why Future Trunks was stronger than Goku for those who care:

• Nobody says either is stronger than the other directly.
• Trunks had 8 months to train for the Androids, compared to the 3 years of the rest. Meaning his growth would be uneven and kinda contradictory to the story. Since he's deemed weaker but in the same realm as Android Arc Goku and Vegeta.
• Trunks is roughly in the same tier as an individual Future Android, his words. He fought them in Trunks Story before coming to the present.
• Logic dictates Trunks would never engage them in those 8 months of interval. Due mainly to Trunks personality, which Trunks Story highlights by having him avoiding them for 3 years after Gohan's death.
• To further support the last point, Trunks Story whole point is to make Trunks realize Bulma's solution is the best which he does at the end. Him midway deciding to have another go at the Androids knowing it's suicide is very, very out-of-character and very much against the point of the story.
• I'm reiterating the last point because that's usually the main argument I face. Since we cannot discredit Trunks direct measurement of his own power, they just say that he must have fought them later. Which once again it's out-of-character and against the point of Trunks Story and by attachment the whole Android Arc.

[dbgtFO]

Even if this supports my view I rather people listen to the actual arguments I made; instead of accepting it as the gospel because some remotely official source, kinda but not really, confirmed it(it didn't).

Indeed though I thought it was an interesting exchange regardless, that might give another perspective to the debate.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It doesn't contradict anything, as far as I know. Neither the manga, the anime, nor the data books take a stance on the Goku vs. Trunks issue, so I don't see a reason to throw it out entirely.

It doesn't fit on the timeline, though. Trunks only returned to fight the Androids, and the Z Senshi only had free time to do such thing on the 10 days for the Cell Games, but both Trunks and Gohan look pre Rosat.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong you have each of Babidi's minions?

[dragonball0900]

How strong you have each of Babidi's minions?

I have them equal to the main villians of previous arcs

Pui Pui would be around Vegeta from the Saiyan arc in his Oozaru form, since he was said to be one of the strongest of the universe.

Yakon, based on how Gohan said that he and Goku would defeat him without SSJ if they work together, would be weaker than Frieza since I doubt the two would defeat Frieza if they work together since even after 4 years Goku was still weaker than him. I would put Yakon at 100,000,000.

Dabura, well, is easily around SSJ Gohan, as seen in their battle.

[Kaboom]

How strong you have each of Babidi's minions?

Ditto on what dragonball0900 said. I also really like having them represent past major villains for thematic purposes before Boo shows up and blows everyone past and present out of the water.

In my lists I have Pui-Pui around as strong as Oozaru Vegeta (putting him over the 100k mark at least grants him due credit as one of "the universe's strongest warriors"), Yakon is roughly as strong as 100% Freeza, probably moderately weaker, and Dabra is "around as strong as [Perfect] Cell" as directly noted.

[DanielSSJ]

I'm with the guys above. Pui-Pui's 10-G boasting seems like an obvious callback to the Saiyan arc and it seems appropriate that our Vegeta stand-in gets wasted by the real deal, Yakon is a tough opponent for an untransformed Goku like Freeza was, and Dabra is directly compared to Cell.

I'd also add that Yamu and Spopovich probably don't even break the 100 barrier. They might be a bit much for the 21st Budokai era characters, but that they'd be completely outpaced by the 22nd Budokai crew.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, I forgot to mention Spopovitch and Yamu (though maybe because they are not relevant). I agree that they would be tough opponents for the 21st Budokai and would give Goku or Roshi a good fight. But certainly not the 22nd Budokai where everyone were already way higher than the strongest normal human level.