Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Chickenchaser]

How strong is Goku Black?

[PFM18]

Sidra: 9,800,000,000,000,000,000,000

Helles: 9,850,000,000,000,000,000,000

Iwne: 9,870,000,000,000,000,000,000

Arack: 9,870,000,000,000,000,000,000

Liquiir: 9,870,000,000,000,000,000,000

Geene: 9,880,000,000,000,000,000,000

Mosco: 9,900,000,000,000,000,000,000

Rumsshi: 9,900,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 9,950,000,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Quitela: 10,100,000,000,000,000,000,000

Belmod: 10,200,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku: 1,170,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 8,775,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 Goku: 175,500,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Vegeta: 1,170,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 8,775,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta: 9,775,350,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta(Beyond Limits): 175,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
Final Explosion: 11,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Toppo(God of Destruction Mode): 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Full Power Energy of Destruction: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Goku and Vegeta rival the Gods in Blue as stated before the tournament. Vegeta in SSBE can edge out a God of Destruction with Final Explosion. Goku hasn't shown anything equivalent to the Final Explosion in power, so he can't overcome a God of Destruction without Ultra Instinct. No reason to list the higher powers like UI. They're higher than Vegeta and the Gods.

How about losing like 10 or 15 zeros? there is really no need to start with such big numbers, don't take it the wrong way, I'm saying this in the kindest way possible and with the best intention, i'm not hating or anything, I aprecciate the effort, but it would be easier for the reader IMO.

Yeah readability is much higher without the zeros.it is pointless to have all the zeros if all of the characters have a similar number of zeros.

If you want to say like "60,000,000,000" you could just say: 60B instead where the "B" just means billion. Or ypu could just write "60 billion." If you are using that large of numbers it could get confusing though because "quadrillion" and "quintillion" both start with a 'q' but even then you could just use the words.

[PFM18]

I think that without UI, Goku is weaker than all of them except Toppo and maybe Sidra. Same for Vegeta.

Goku is definitely weaker than Toppo and Vegeta's SSBE after he unlocked more of its power.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong is Goku Black?

Difficult to tell since he can get stronger in the middle of a fight. The most safe answer is stronger than SS2 Trunks. But I guess we could say he is stronger than SS2 Goku too.

[p-hyvo]

heroes suggests that super power levels are much higher than gt's

so, that's it. i came to this conclusion based on the following scale
xeno Goku >=beat blue >= MUI Goku and jiren >2# form demigra>>>>super mira = ssj3 tb bardack>>>>> base tb bardack >ssj4 gogeta

from this, i've calulate the multipliers for ssjg and ssjb, that are respectively :
ssjg = x8'000'000'000'000'000
ssjb = x400'000'000'000'000'000

uh and no, ccl Goku from heroes is not dbs Goku, but another of the lots of parallel gokus that heroes brings in. ccl Goku is. by logic, a lot stronger than Goku from dbs


any thought on that? are my thoughts ok or does anyone have any advice?

[Bullza]

Barring Rilld, I think they are all below Boo. I checked the line in question and Goku says he didn’t think to encounter someone with energy as large as Rilld, which suggests he is stronger than everyone he met previously. At the same time, Boo possibly had the greatest energy he could remember.

But Base Goku was above Rildo right?

That was also true for Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud as well so shouldn't they also be above Buu?

[Hugo Boss]

Barring Rilld, I think they are all below Boo. I checked the line in question and Goku says he didn’t think to encounter someone with energy as large as Rilld, which suggests he is stronger than everyone he met previously. At the same time, Boo possibly had the greatest energy he could remember.

But Base Goku was above Rildo right?

That was also true for Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud as well so shouldn't they also be above Buu?

Yeah, but I think Goku was gradually acclimating to his full original power, so those enemies before Rilld weren’t stronger than Boo.

[Bullza]

Yeah I'm at that part of the series now with Rilldo and he does say

"This one doesn't even compare to the guys we've had up to now"

Which I assume would be referring to all the ones they've fought in GT including Ledgic and Mutchy. Then he also says.

"The universe certainly is a big place. To think that I should come across someone with a Ki as large as yours....it's even greater than Boo's".

Obviously makes it sound like everyone prior to this was not as strong as Buu.

Where it gets confusing though is that Base Goku was stronger than Rilldo but he wasn't stronger than Ledgic. On top of that the Sigma Force reviewed all the data from his battles prior to this but when Goku actually defeated the Sigma Force they said they didn't have speed and power in their data.

So he was just holding back against everyone before this? Or was it as you said he was adapting to his power because it does seem like Base Goku would be far stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from before but that seems a bit of a reach.

[Hugo Boss]

So he was just holding back against everyone before this? Or was it as you said he was adapting to his power because it does seem like Base Goku would be far stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from before but that seems a bit of a reach.

If you read these interviews in detail, you get the vibe that the first portion of GT was not about conveying strong enemies, so they sorta nerfed Goku. But when they introduced Doctor Mu, Rilld and Baby, Goku started to get over his issues.

[Analytic]

I think it's just proof of Goku's increase between Lood and M2. It may not make much sense but it's what suggested.

[Bullza]

The increase would seem bizarre though. He'd have grown dozens of times stronger in such a short time span from....just sitting around on the Spaceship? The only thing that happened between Luud and M-2 was they went to the desert planet briefly.

I don't think it would make sense for him to have in power to such and extent.

If Goku had just been holding back against Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud that would be one thing but as a Super Saiyan he'd also be holding back more than his true Base strength? So that doesn't make sense.

Him losing a chunk of power after becoming a kid and then eventually regaining it all by the time they got to M-2 would probably be the best fit but nothing ever suggested that to be the case either.

[Koitsukai]

So he was just holding back against everyone before this? Or was it as you said he was adapting to his power because it does seem like Base Goku would be far stronger than Super Saiyan Goku from before but that seems a bit of a reach.

If you read these interviews in detail, you get the vibe that the first portion of GT was not about conveying strong enemies, so they sorta nerfed Goku. But when they introduced Doctor Mu, Rilld and Baby, Goku started to get over his issues.

I think those interviews prove that GT's power levels aren't as colossal as people might think and that they focused solely on Goku which actually kept the rest of the cast weaker in order to uphold Goku's role/protagonism, like in Pan's case or Piccolo's. Gohan is confirmed by the main writer himself to be the same scholar from EoZ, downplaying Kid Goku's feats against his SSJ children.

[Bullza]

Trunks also implied he was weaker than Piccolo.

[Analytic]

Gohan is also stated to train between EoZ and GT in the GT Perfect Files, so he's likely stronger than Ultimate Gohan or at least in a similar ballpark.

[Bullza]

I've gone through all the stuff from the start of GT up to before the Baby saga, so the first arc I suppose of the show. This is what I've gathered so far and I'll list it in a straight forward way.

1. Rilldo is stronger than Buu.... possibly Kid Buu. He is incomparable from all other antagonists up to that point in GT.

2. Ledgic, Mutchy, Luud and the Sigma Cannon would all be weaker than Buu.

3. Base Goku with his full power was stronger than Rilldo therefore he would possibly have not used his full power against Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud for whatever reason.

4. Despite the data the Machine Mutants received from the Saiyans they may not have known about Super Saiyan considering the footage they did watch didn't show it and maybe Rilldo didn't know about it until it appeared.

5. Uub is as strong as Base Goku and so would be stronger than Rilldo and the others.

6. Trunks is weaker than Piccolo. He hasn't been training hard so he might not even be as strong as he was in the Buu saga. He's considerably weaker than even a possibly suppressed Base Goku.

7. Pan is weaker than Trunks but not by a whole lot.

So I'd rank them as this for now

Meta Rilldo > SSJ Goku > Hyper Rilldo > Base Goku = Uub > Rilldo > Kid Buu > Sigma Cannon > Luud > Mutchy > Ledgic > Base Goku (suppressed) > Base Trunks > Pan

[p-hyvo]

I've gone through all the stuff from the start of GT up to before the Baby saga, so the first arc I suppose of the show. This is what I've gathered so far and I'll list it in a straight forward way.

1. Rilldo is stronger than Buu.... possibly Kid Buu. He is incomparable from all other antagonists up to that point in GT.

2. Ledgic, Mutchy, Luud and the Sigma Cannon would all be weaker than Buu.

3. Base Goku with his full power was stronger than Rilldo therefore he would possibly have not used his full power against Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud for whatever reason.

4. Despite the data the Machine Mutants received from the Saiyans they may not have known about Super Saiyan considering the footage they did watch didn't show it and maybe Rilldo didn't know about it until it appeared.

5. Uub is as strong as Base Goku and so would be stronger than Rilldo and the others.

6. Trunks is weaker than Piccolo. He hasn't been training hard so he might not even be as strong as he was in the Buu saga. He's considerably weaker than even a possibly suppressed Base Goku.

7. Pan is weaker than Trunks but not by a whole lot.

So I'd rank them as this for now

Meta Rilldo > SSJ Goku > Hyper Rilldo > Base Goku = Uub > Rilldo > Kid Buu > Sigma Cannon > Luud > Mutchy > Ledgic > Base Goku (suppressed) > Base Trunks > Pan

just one thing, the buu Goku was referring to telling that rildo is stronger is buuhan, not kid buu. moreover, i have good reasons to think that Goku > uub at the start of gt, he seemed to me to be suppressed against uub

[PFM18]

I've gone through all the stuff from the start of GT up to before the Baby saga, so the first arc I suppose of the show. This is what I've gathered so far and I'll list it in a straight forward way.

1. Rilldo is stronger than Buu.... possibly Kid Buu. He is incomparable from all other antagonists up to that point in GT.

2. Ledgic, Mutchy, Luud and the Sigma Cannon would all be weaker than Buu.

3. Base Goku with his full power was stronger than Rilldo therefore he would possibly have not used his full power against Ledgic, Mutchy and Luud for whatever reason.

4. Despite the data the Machine Mutants received from the Saiyans they may not have known about Super Saiyan considering the footage they did watch didn't show it and maybe Rilldo didn't know about it until it appeared.

5. Uub is as strong as Base Goku and so would be stronger than Rilldo and the others.

6. Trunks is weaker than Piccolo. He hasn't been training hard so he might not even be as strong as he was in the Buu saga. He's considerably weaker than even a possibly suppressed Base Goku.

7. Pan is weaker than Trunks but not by a whole lot.

So I'd rank them as this for now

Meta Rilldo > SSJ Goku > Hyper Rilldo > Base Goku = Uub > Rilldo > Kid Buu > Sigma Cannon > Luud > Mutchy > Ledgic > Base Goku (suppressed) > Base Trunks > Pan

just one thing, the buu Goku was referring to telling that rildo is stronger is buuhan, not kid buu. moreover, i have good reasons to think that Goku > uub at the start of gt, he seemed to me to be suppressed against uub

How could you possibly know for certain that he was referring to Buuhan?

[Bullza]

How strong are the Saiyans supposed to be in GT?

Considering the ease with which Trunks killed Yakon and Goten and Trunks killed Android 19 would it be right to say they were both stronger than Goku and Vegeta from the Buu saga?

Trunks did imply he was weaker than Piccolo though but maybe Piccolo is just drastically stronger!

Gohan was stronger than Goten....I can't tell if his Base form is meant to be stronger than Super Saiyan Goten?

Vegeta is stronger than Gohan but he's definitely not as strong as Goku. I can't remember now but did Base Goku put up a better fight against Super 17 than Super Saiyan Vegeta did?

[Koitsukai]

How strong are the Saiyans supposed to be in GT?

Considering the ease with which Trunks killed Yakon and Goten and Trunks killed Android 19 would it be right to say they were both stronger than Goku and Vegeta from the Buu saga?

Trunks did imply he was weaker than Piccolo though but maybe Piccolo is just drastically stronger!

Gohan was stronger than Goten....I can't tell if his Base form is meant to be stronger than Super Saiyan Goten?

Vegeta is stronger than Gohan but he's definitely not as strong as Goku. I can't remember now but did Base Goku put up a better fight against Super 17 than Super Saiyan Vegeta did?

Not at all, Goten and Trunks were sent to space with Goku because they slacked off on their training, since EoZ they had lost the interest in fighting, Trunks was a bored CEO(!) and every now and then he treats himself and flies off his office and cherishes flying like is not an everyday thing, and Goten was all about going out on dates and wouldn't even get off the phone while boarding, and even when he was forced to train by his father he was defeated by Pan in EoZ. About that Yakon feat, I atribute that to the many incongruences of GT and the franchise, 19 shouldn't have absorbed the ki blast? and how did they sense his ki? like Omega shenron kicking Mr. Satan and not killing him or Kale in Super stomping SS Blue only to get outclass later by a tired SS God.

Vegeta revealed in that awful Z flashback episode that he had stopped trying to surpass Gokou since his N°1 speech in the buu arc, he was no longer a power-driven fighter, he even spent time in front of the mirror and grew a moustache!! he was the only one who kept actually training, not that hard though. The real Vegeta comes back when Goku is fighting the 4-star dragon.

Gohan was portrayed the same way as he was in EoZ, a scholar whose life no longer had much room left for fighting(he never liked it that much either), confirmed by one of the main writers. GT Perfect Lies contradicts the writer's explanation and what the show portrayed, but if you watch the show you'll never get to the conclusion that Gohan kept training, you'll forget he was actually a part of the show to be honest. The most clear indicator(among others) are his clothing, clothes aren't just to not show the characters naked, they speak volumes of the character and what they are all about, and Gohan wears glasses, a suit and a tie in 60 out of 64 episodes. If Gohan was surpassed by a watered-down Vegeta then he didn't train that much.

GT hybrids are weaker than their Z-counterparts, so it would make sense that the strongest one(Gohan) would still have the upper hand against the weakest one(Goten), he is also a much better fighter than the younger saiyans. Not saying kid Goten beats GT Goten(although EoZ Goten lost to 4yo Pan), but buu arc SS Gohan > GT SS Goten and SS Trunks. Nobody took training seriously so they stagnated.

[Bullza]

Well I see now that Base Goku appears to be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten. Vegeta had to transform into a Super Saiyan for Super Saiyan Gohan though.

So would it be accurate to say that Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Vegeta all have a similar power to their Buu saga appearance and Base Goku is a lot stronger than them as he's above Buu?