Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ Vegetto]

I've found a youtube power level list. It's a old list (2013) but what's your thoughts on this?

Major statements:

At least a 10% power advantage is crushing victory
Namekian Fusion = 100x multiplier
Fusion Formula = (F1 + F2) x 2000 +10% for rival boost when applicable
Unfused Piccolo > Android Saga Base Saiyans
Android 20 and 19 < Base Vegeta and Goku
Perfect Cell is 5x stronger than healthy Ssj Goku
Boo Saga Goku is only around 10x stronger than his yardart era.
Goten & Trunks (Base) < Captain Ginyu
Ssj Goten & Trunks < Android Base Goku & Vegeta
Superme Kai < Base Saiyans < Namek Freeza
Super Boo 10x stronger than Enraged Fat Boo

[ekrolo2]

I've found a youtube power level list. It's a old list (2013) but what's your thoughts on this?

Major statements:

At least a 10% power advantage is crushing victory
Namekian Fusion = 100x multiplier
Fusion Formula = (F1 + F2) x 2000 +10% for rival boost when applicable
Unfused Piccolo > Android Saga Base Saiyans
Android 20 and 19 < Base Vegeta and Goku
Perfect Cell is 5x stronger than healthy Ssj Goku
Boo Saga Goku is only around 10x stronger than his yardart era.
Goten & Trunks (Base) < Captain Ginyu
Ssj Goten & Trunks < Android Base Goku & Vegeta
Superme Kai < Base Saiyans < Namek Freeza
Super Boo 10x stronger than Enraged Fat Boo

If Zarbon (regular) & Dodoria vs Vegeta is any indication, 10% difference DOES give you a crushing win.
Mmmaayyybbbeee I'd give the Nail fusion something that big but no way in hell is the Kami one above x2.
From the GT perfect files we know Gogeta is tens of times stronger than Goku while the Daizenshuu says Vegetto in Base is stronger than an SS3. So, Metamoran fusion is probably (at bare minimum)= (A+B)*5 while the Vegetto's potara formula is: (A+B)*250
Pre-Kami fusion Piccolo is SS tier, he beats the shit out of Android 20 even after he absorbed lots of energy from Piccolo and Vegeta.
If 19 and 20 were weaker than Base Saiyans, why didn't they just use Base to shit stomp them?
Wait, by "healthy SS Goku" do you mean Pre-ROSAT? Because there's NO way that's true.
Boo Saga Goku being that low isn't unreasonable but even as someone who low balls characters, that seems a tad excessive.
Base Goten & Trunks can beat up Abo & Cado who are above first form Freeza, of course they're above Ginyu.
SS Goten and Trunks are far more likely to rival Cell Games Vegeta & Trunks than they are of being weaker than fucking Base Android Goku.
Kaioshin is a problem child because he's very clearly supposed to be stronger than Piccolo and statements from guides support this but then the story makes him into shit tier fodder so....
I have Super Boo around 12-15 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

[SSJ Vegetto]

I've found a youtube power level list. It's a old list (2013) but what's your thoughts on this?

Major statements:

At least a 10% power advantage is crushing victory
Namekian Fusion = 100x multiplier
Fusion Formula = (F1 + F2) x 2000 +10% for rival boost when applicable
Unfused Piccolo > Android Saga Base Saiyans
Android 20 and 19 < Base Vegeta and Goku
Perfect Cell is 5x stronger than healthy Ssj Goku
Boo Saga Goku is only around 10x stronger than his yardart era.
Goten & Trunks (Base) < Captain Ginyu
Ssj Goten & Trunks < Android Base Goku & Vegeta
Superme Kai < Base Saiyans < Namek Freeza
Super Boo 10x stronger than Enraged Fat Boo

If Zarbon (regular) & Dodoria vs Vegeta is any indication, 10% difference DOES give you a crushing win.
Mmmaayyybbbeee I'd give the Nail fusion something that big but no way in hell is the Kami one above x2.
From the GT perfect files we know Gogeta is tens of times stronger than Goku while the Daizenshuu says Vegetto in Base is stronger than an SS3. So, Metamoran fusion is probably (at bare minimum)= (A+B)*5 while the Vegetto's potara formula is: (A+B)*250
Pre-Kami fusion Piccolo is SS tier, he beats the shit out of Android 20 even after he absorbed lots of energy from Piccolo and Vegeta.
If 19 and 20 were weaker than Base Saiyans, why didn't they just use Base to shit stomp them?
Wait, by "healthy SS Goku" do you mean Pre-ROSAT? Because there's NO way that's true.
Boo Saga Goku being that low isn't unreasonable but even as someone who low balls characters, that seems a tad excessive.
Base Goten & Trunks can beat up Abo & Cado who are above first form Freeza, of course they're above Ginyu.
SS Goten and Trunks are far more likely to rival Cell Games Vegeta & Trunks than they are of being weaker than fucking Base Android Goku.
Kaioshin is a problem child because he's very clearly supposed to be stronger than Piccolo and statements from guides support this but then the story makes him into shit tier fodder so....
I have Super Boo around 12-15 times stronger than SS3 Goku.

He say Guidebooks is piece of shit, but he use official multipliers.
Yup healthy Ssj Goku i mean Pre-Rosat he has Ssj Goku at 350,000,000 and Perfect Cell (Imperfect Cell + #17 + 18) = 1,750,000,000.

I didn't reply rest because your thoughts are good imo.

[ekrolo2]

He say Guidebooks is piece of shit, but he use official multipliers.
Yup healthy Ssj Goku i mean Pre-Rosat he has Ssj Goku at 350,000,000 and Perfect Cell (Imperfect Cell + #17 + 18) = 1,750,000,000.

I didn't reply rest because your thoughts are good imo.

I mean, I can see the thought process behind Cell's power because the impression I get is becoming Semi-Perfect gave him an additive boost but becoming Perfect gives him a multiplier between 3-4 times Semi-Perfect Cell's power which is weird but nothing I'd lose sleep over.

[LightBing]

I have a question for everyone, assuming your lists use the scouters method, are your numbers Ki quantity or an hierarchy between the fighters in question?

For example: Goku vs Piccolo Daimaõ, the first won but when I make a list I always put Daimaõ as having a higher number. This because he spent more Ki than Goku rather obviously(decimating cities wasn't easy back then), besides other factors like Goku being a better fighter and having the mental advantage.
Now if I was going for hierarchy I would give Goku a higher number because he won.

I just to clear this up.

[DanielSSJ]

I'm basically in agreement. Battle powers quantify ki and only ki, as far as I'm concerned.

[Desassina]

I always use the characters at their full potential to depict their hierarchy and keep their power leveled with the transformations' (made up) stats.

Here's an example: Cell regenerated into his Perfect form post-self destruction and he powered up greatly like Gohan from near death recovery. Since he regenerated, you can assume that he lost some energy, and therefore wasn't full. However, I only documented 100% power, just like Gohan with a single arm, whose power was less than half, before the two of them charged their Kamehameha anyway. In other words, I made Gohan superior because he won, but not by double the amount of Cell.

Perfect Cell at 50%: 960'000k
Super Saiyan Gohan: 1'200'000k
Super Perfect Cell: 2'400'000k (2.5x)
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 3'000'000k (2.5x)

[Saiga]

Now seems as good a time as any to throw out my revised lists. Never thought I'd be saying that again.
Main series.
Movies.
I'm trying to throw on together for Super, based on the relatively simple manga continuity, but I keep running into the issue of just how strong SSG is supposed to be compared to previous powers. The one thing tripping me up is Goku's ambiguous "I never knew this realm existed"; otherwise stuff like Ultimate Gohan training up to Blue tier in a year and base Vegetto being at least stronger than SSG Goku suggest the gap isn't huge. But, it's basically just a choice of whether to add or remove a zero from a bunch of the powers on an already-done list, so eh.

In general I'd say the Super manga has smaller gaps between all the transformations, it doesn't feel like you can easily reconcile it with official multipliers and the original manga.

On SSG, there's also Goku telling Toppo that this transformation will be on a completely different level to his other forms - which is obvious, but the way he highlights it after cycling through his other transformations suggests to me that the gap is bigger than his other forms. It could even be bigger than base -> Super Saiyan 1.

[LightBing]

I always took to face value that line about an realm beyond imagination. Meaning SSG is above an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.
In my opinion had Beerus never came into the picture, that's probably the limit Goku and Vegeta would ever gotten to. Each one at their top would amount to a single Vegetto.

[ekrolo2]

The best way to reconcile the God boost initially is to make the Ritual one bigger while the latter version is shrunken down.

[Noah]

I'm basically in agreement. Battle powers quantify ki and only ki, as far as I'm concerned.

Not strenght too?

[DanielSSJ]

Not strenght too?

Battle powers are numerical measurements of ki, and that's all they are. They can't be used to directly quantify physical strength - or speed or durability, for that matter. However, since ki is used to amplify those traits, battle powers can be used to indirectly measure them, but not with 100% accuracy. To use LightBing's example, Piccolo Daimao probably had a higher battle power (re: more ki) than Goku, but Goku was able to outperform him in part because his Saiyan physiology gave him the edge in physical strength and toughness (and because Piccolo's lack of composure caused him to behave recklessly and waste a lot of stamina).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have a question for everyone, assuming your lists use the scouters method, are your numbers Ki quantity or an hierarchy between the fighters in question?

For example: Goku vs Piccolo Daimaõ, the first won but when I make a list I always put Daimaõ as having a higher number. This because he spent more Ki than Goku rather obviously(decimating cities wasn't easy back then), besides other factors like Goku being a better fighter and having the mental advantage.
Now if I was going for hierarchy I would give Goku a higher number because he won.

I just to clear this up.

Only Ki, of course. Stuff like fighting IQ can't be measured in numbers. Though one's mentality might affect their power level, as Toriyama has stated in interview that Ki is a balance between energy (Genki), bravery (Shouki) and right mind (Yuuki).

In general I'd say the Super manga has smaller gaps between all the transformations, it doesn't feel like you can easily reconcile it with official multipliers and the original manga.

On SSG, there's also Goku telling Toppo that this transformation will be on a completely different level to his other forms - which is obvious, but the way he highlights it after cycling through his other transformations suggests to me that the gap is bigger than his other forms. It could even be bigger than base -> Super Saiyan 1.

I agree. This is strongly implied when Vegeta fought Hit.

Do you have a set of multipliers in mind?

I always took to face value that line about an realm beyond imagination. Meaning SSG is above an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.
In my opinion had Beerus never came into the picture, that's probably the limit Goku and Vegeta would ever gotten to. Each one at their top would amount to a single Vegetto.

Pretty sure their ceiling would be SSJ3, as it's stated... And fusion is described by Goku as being a power neither of the fusers could ever achieve

Either way, how strong do you think the Saiyan's lower forms are?

[LightBing]

Either way, how strong do you think the Saiyan's lower forms are?

I have nothing set in stone and I'm a couple of years behind revising my old numbers so take it with a big grain of salt.

Super Saiyan I have at a 40x multiplier, because I don't like bloating and to be true to Mr.Toriyama words in that interview where he said he thought x50 was too much and that's not how he felt drawing it.
I then add a x amount based on training which is the mastery bit. Because it never made sense to me how less stamina draining made anyone stronger. I always interpreted Vegeta words as turning SSJ into base allowed them to raise their level as if SSJ was base, instead of relying solely on the power up. Before stamina drain made it very hard to make gains this way.

To give an example:
Goku - 9.600.000
Super Saiyan - 384.000.000 + 750.000.000 = 1.134.000.000

For SSJ2 and SSJ3 I don't have a multiplier. Still thinking about it. I just don't like multipliers due to being so restraining, there's a reason Mr.Toriyama stopped using them. Much more interesting to guess how strong the characters are due to the plot/enemies instead of jumping hoops to make rules never mentioned on the manga work.

[PFM18]

The best way to reconcile the God boost initially is to make the Ritual one bigger while the latter version is shrunken down.

Yeah I agree. It is the best way to reconcile it and it makes sense. If he made some of, if not all of the power his own, how would it make sense for him to attain the same boost?

[Saiga]

In general I'd say the Super manga has smaller gaps between all the transformations, it doesn't feel like you can easily reconcile it with official multipliers and the original manga.

On SSG, there's also Goku telling Toppo that this transformation will be on a completely different level to his other forms - which is obvious, but the way he highlights it after cycling through his other transformations suggests to me that the gap is bigger than his other forms. It could even be bigger than base -> Super Saiyan 1.

I agree. This is strongly implied when Vegeta fought Hit.

Do you have a set of multipliers in mind?

Nah, I haven't put that much thought into it. The one concrete line is that 'not even 10%' of SSB Vegeta's power was surpassed by SSG Goku, which implies SS Goku was still weaker (so SSB is 10x as powerful as SS1 at least).

If we take 'Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan' literally, and that is literally SS1 stacked on SSG, we could say SSG is at least 10x as powerful as base. Base -> Super Saiyan is probably pretty small in that case, which fits with base Goku now being stronger than the Kaioshin.

Problems with this idea: SS1 Goku Black was able to overpower SSB Vegeta after zenkai, I don't think his Rose form is 10x more powerful than that. And Freeza only commented that Caulifla's power was greater than SS1 Namek Goku after she became a Super Saiyan, so I don't know if her base form is meant to be that strong.

The '10%' line could refer to SSB Vegeta's hypothetical full power, though, meaning that it's CSSB that is 10x greater than Super Saiyan. That would probably be incredibly tight, though.

[RandomGuy96]

In general I'd say the Super manga has smaller gaps between all the transformations, it doesn't feel like you can easily reconcile it with official multipliers and the original manga.

On SSG, there's also Goku telling Toppo that this transformation will be on a completely different level to his other forms - which is obvious, but the way he highlights it after cycling through his other transformations suggests to me that the gap is bigger than his other forms. It could even be bigger than base -> Super Saiyan 1.

I agree. This is strongly implied when Vegeta fought Hit.

Do you have a set of multipliers in mind?

Nah, I haven't put that much thought into it. The one concrete line is that 'not even 10%' of SSB Vegeta's power was surpassed by SSG Goku, which implies SS Goku was still weaker (so SSB is 10x as powerful as SS1 at least).

If we take 'Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan' literally, and that is literally SS1 stacked on SSG, we could say SSG is at least 10x as powerful as base. Base -> Super Saiyan is probably pretty small in that case, which fits with base Goku now being stronger than the Kaioshin.

Problems with this idea: SS1 Goku Black was able to overpower SSB Vegeta after zenkai, I don't think his Rose form is 10x more powerful than that. And Freeza only commented that Caulifla's power was greater than SS1 Namek Goku after she became a Super Saiyan, so I don't know if her base form is meant to be that strong.

The '10%' line could refer to SSB Vegeta's hypothetical full power, though, meaning that it's CSSB that is 10x greater than Super Saiyan. That would probably be incredibly tight, though.

That's how I took it. I mean, that is literally what it has to mean- CSSB isn't a new transformation or anything, it's explicitly stated to just be 100% of SSB's power being outputted continuously. Apparently, in "normal" SSB, it starts out at full power in an explosive burst (as Beerus put it) and then quickly drops to a lower level, hence why Vegeta's SSG/SSB switch tactic let him trounce SSR Black.

[Desassina]

I think that it's supposed to be like this:

Spoiler:

Base Saiyan: [1, 10], the same one throughout, increasing past the old forms before the new transformation, because the latter is Blue and SSJ came after base.
Super Saiyan: [10, 100], Goku was 5 times past the entry point for its "multiplier" to be higher than Kaioken on Namek. He doubled it into his full power versus Cell.

Base at SSJ FP: [10, 100], at the level of their previous full power as SSJ, the base state has a new reach that surpassed the grades, for a new SSJ to begin where it ended.
God SSJ/SSJ God: [100, 1'000], the former known as the state that surpassed the numbered forms like manga Goku Black and Battle of Gods Goku did upon matching SSJ God.

Base at God: [100, 1'000], the one that they have achieved with Whis's training, to either harness the power of SSJ God or to precede SSJ Blue, the latter as their top most.
SSJ God SSJ: [1'000, 10'000], otherwise known as SSJ Blue, the transformation has an entry point, it can increase towards full power, and go under with energy loss.

To make things fluid, they can be collapsed into this:

Base: 1 -> 1'000 = SSJG
SSJ: 10 -> 10'000 = SSJB

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nah, I haven't put that much thought into it. The one concrete line is that 'not even 10%' of SSB Vegeta's power was surpassed by SSG Goku, which implies SS Goku was still weaker (so SSB is 10x as powerful as SS1 at least).

If we take 'Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan' literally, and that is literally SS1 stacked on SSG, we could say SSG is at least 10x as powerful as base. Base -> Super Saiyan is probably pretty small in that case, which fits with base Goku now being stronger than the Kaioshin.

Problems with this idea: SS1 Goku Black was able to overpower SSB Vegeta after zenkai, I don't think his Rose form is 10x more powerful than that. And Freeza only commented that Caulifla's power was greater than SS1 Namek Goku after she became a Super Saiyan, so I don't know if her base form is meant to be that strong.

The '10%' line could refer to SSB Vegeta's hypothetical full power, though, meaning that it's CSSB that is 10x greater than Super Saiyan. That would probably be incredibly tight, though.

It's still implied SSJ it at least close to <10% SSJB, as Hit's timeskip only works in people around his level.

I don't think the original name for SSJB can be taken literally, at least not in the manga. The advantage of SSJB over SSJG seems moderate at best, and SSJB not being much more than 10x SSJ1 puts a cap on the power gaps here.

Freeza's statement seems more like a understatement more than anything, tbh. Beerus didn't note Goku was able to beat Freeza until Goku went SSJ2. Guess Base or Super Saiyan Goku can't beat Freeza?

I don't think so, no saiyan had achieved the power of PSSJB yet, Vegeta even says nobody but Goku can fight Merged Zamasu. Goku had to seal the overflowing Ki (His aura) inside his body to get so powerful. The comparison is just between SSJ and unmastered SSJB.

[Desassina]

Where do you guys have SSJB "Not Kaioken" Goku and SSJB Vegeta "Evolved Not"? They're bootleg versions of their anime counterparts and showed up in the manga.