Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:31 pm

sintzu wrote: Vegeta should've also fought freeza in his 3rd form to justify it and to show how much of a boost he got from krillin and dende.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he could've defeat Frieza that way. I mean, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin were shocked when sensing Vegeta's power. I do believe Akira Toriyama might not have wanted to make Vegeta have a victory in a battle during this part of the saga, so he made Frieza transform into his Final Form just at the same time Vegeta got his power up.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:42 pm

sintzu wrote:If Freeza's power level was one million in his 2nd form, how much would his 3rd form be ? assuming there's no official numbers.
Very likely to be above the two millions mark. After turning into his 2nd form he does two signficant power ups, but still a notch under a unweighted Piccolo. On his 3rd form he completely outspeeds Piccolo and merciless stomps him. I have him at 2,400,000.
If Vegeta was able to see Freeza's attacks in his final form (at least the one that almost hit Gohan), what was his power level after being healed by Dende ? Piccolo was amazed by it so we know he was at least stronger than him and 2nd form Freeza but what about his 3rd form ?
Above 3rd form Freeza by a lot. He was confident he could take down Freeza and only failed because Freeza had way more power in the tank.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:57 am

apex_pretador wrote:Anyone interested in a DB Super power level list? I am planning to do one.
Yeah, I am.
I really think SSG is a lot weaker than we thought, with Kefla stomping SSG Goku and Enraged Vegeta making Beerus use "10%" of his power while he used "100%" against SSG Goku. Now, of course this turns out to be a lie and was retconned later, but I think it makes sense in retrospect that SSG Goku was only 10x as strong as enraged Vegeta, given how easily characters are able to reach that realm of power now.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:39 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Anyone interested in a DB Super power level list? I am planning to do one.
Yeah, I am.
I really think SSG is a lot weaker than we thought, with Kefla stomping SSG Goku and Enraged Vegeta making Beerus use "10%" of his power while he used "100%" against SSG Goku. Now, of course this turns out to be a lie and was retconned later, but I think it makes sense in retrospect that SSG Goku was only 10x as strong as enraged Vegeta, given how easily characters are able to reach that realm of power now.
I think it varies a lot, I mean at first SSJG Goku couldn't even touch Beerus until he got stronger, and when he was exhausted after his fight with Jiren he was also weakened.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:09 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Anyone interested in a DB Super power level list? I am planning to do one.
Yeah, I am.
Okay, here we go:

Dragon Ball Super: Power Levels

References:

[spoiler]
  • Raditz: 1320
  • 100% Freeza (if he had not been injured) = 120,000,000
  • 100% Perfect Cell = 1,200,000,000
  • 100% Kid buu = 12,000,000,000
  • M=million
  • B=billion
  • T = Trillion
[/spoiler]

Multipliers:

[spoiler]
  • Super Saiyan* (1,2,3) = 50x, 100x, 400x base
  • Potara fusion (strongest form) = varies from (A+B)x20 to (A+B)x90 depending upon compatibility and power gap
  • Great ape = 10x
  • Mutated (mastered) Super Saiyan 2* = 1200x base
  • Super Saiyan 1,2,3 (for Goku/vegeta after discovering god ki)* = 10x, 20x, 40x
* Super Saiyan multipliers only applicable on base saiyans
[/spoiler]

Battle of gods

[spoiler]Part 1
  • Goku = 60,000,000 , 3,000,000,000 , 6,000,000,000 , 24,000,000,000
  • Vegeta = 55,000,000 , 2,750,000,000 , 5,500,000,000
  • Piccolo = 800,000,000
  • #18 = 200,000,000
  • Gohan = 20,000,000 , 20,000,000,000
Part 2
  • Rageta = 66,000,000,000
  • Goku (everyone's ki) = 120,000,000,000
  • Super Saiyan God = 1,200,000,000,000 , 1,360,000,000,000 , 1,800,000,000,000 (max power)
  • Beerus = unknown, much stronger than 2,400,000,000,000
[/spoiler]

Revival of Freeza

[spoiler]
  • Jaco = 260
  • Roshi = 3000
  • Krillin = 27,000
  • Tenshinhan = 22,000
  • Piccolo = 801,000,000
  • Gohan (rusty) = 20 M , 1 B
  • Tagoma = 900 M
  • SS Gotenks (very rusty) = First form Freeza = 1.2 B
  • Buu = 5 B
  • Final form Freeza (suppressed) = Base Goku/vegeta = 10 B
  • Super Saiyan Blue = 4 T
  • Golden Freeza = 5 T, 2.2 T (exhausted)
[/spoiler]

Universe 6 tourney

[spoiler]Part 1
  • Gohan = 48 M, 2.4 B
  • Piccolo = 2 B
  • Buu = 5 B
  • Goku = Vegeta = 10 B
Part 2
  • Botamo = 2 M
  • Frost = 300 M, 2 B, 7 B, 3.5 B (exhausted)
  • Cabba = 600 M, 30 B
  • Goku/vegeta = 11 B, 110 B, 5 T
  • Hit = 6 T
  • KKx10 SSB Goku = 50 T and dropping fast
[/spoiler]

Future trunks arc

[spoiler]Part 1
  • Super rusty 3 gotenks = 10.8 B
  • Base Goku / vegeta = 12 B
  • SSB Goku / vegeta = 7.5 T
  • Future trunks = 500 M, 25 B, 50 B
  • Goku Black (base) = 160 B
  • Zamasu = 6 B
Part 2
  • Future trunks (trained) = 3 B, 150 B, 300 B, 3.6 T (enraged)
  • Goku Black = 160 B (base), 6 T (SSR, initial) , 8 T (SSR, max power)
  • SSB Goku / vegeta = 7.5 T, 8 T (drawing power from rage)
  • SSRage Trunks = 7.2 T, 17.2 T (spirit bomb sword)
  • Zamasu = 600 B (immortal)
  • Merged Zamasu = 16 T (initial) with powerful barriers around him
  • KaioKen x10 SSB Goku = 60 T (weakened)
  • Full power merged zamasu = (8 T + 600 B)x20 = 172 T (unstable) , 17.2 T (weakened)
  • SSB Vegetto = (8 T + 8 T) x 60 = 960 T
  • Beerus = 900 to 1000 T (hypothetical max power according to shin)
  • Hit = 8 T
[/spoiler]

Universal survival arc

[spoiler]Part 1
  • Buu = 5 B, 6 B (enraged)
  • Gohan = 40 M, 2 B
  • Goku = 12 B (base), over 8 T (SSB)
  • Toppo = 6.9 T (Suppressed)
  • Basil = 2.8 B, 4 B (full power), 4.5 B (drugged)
  • Lavender = 66 M
  • Bergamo = 10 B
Part 2:
  • Tenshinhan = 38,000
  • Krillin = 52,000
  • Roshi = 29,000
  • Fit buu = 7.6 B
  • Gohan = 40 M, 2 B, 4 B
  • Piccolo = 8 B
  • Mystic Gohan = 24 B (original power) and rising
  • Mystic Gohan (post training) = 300 B, 8 B (base)
  • True Golden Freeza = 9 T
Part 3:
Universe 2:
  • Jimiz = 14 B
Universe 3:
  • Maji Kayo = 190 B
Universe 4:
  • Ganos = 9000, 18000 (transformed)
  • Monna = 40 B
Universe 6:
  • Dr Rota = 99999
  • Botamo = 2 M
  • Cabba = 640 M, 32 B, 64 B
  • Kale = 40 M, 2 B
  • Berserker Kale = 1 T, 1.5 T (controlled)
  • Caulifla = 200 M, 10 B, 20 B, 240 B
  • Frost = 10 B, 20 B (100%)
  • Magetta = 140 B
  • The Namekians = 8.4 B
  • Hit = 10 T
  • Kefla = 6.5 T, 39 T, 78 T, 156.6 T (1.740 T x 90 = 156.6 T)
Universe 7:
  • Roshi = 29,000 , 55,000 (limit surpassed)
  • Tien = 40,000
  • Krillin = 58,000
  • #18 = 300 M
  • Piccolo = 8 B
  • #17 = Unknown so far
  • Mystic Gohan = 8 B, 300 B (full power)
  • Freeza = atleast 20 B (possibly higher, 8 T (true golden Freeza)
  • Vegeta = Goku = 12 B, 120 B, 240 B
  • Super Saiyan God = 1.8 T
  • Super Saiyan Blue = 9 T
  • SSB KK Goku = 90 T (KK x10), 180 T (KK x20)
  • UI Goku = Over 200 T, possibly 440 T
  • Heavily tired SSB Goku = 5 T, 22 T (SSBKK)
Universe 9
  • Basil = 6 B
  • Trio-de-dangers combo = 20 B
Universe 10
  • Obuni = 36 B
  • Napapa = 4 B
Universe 11
  • Toppo = 8.88 T
  • Jiren = Over 200 T, possibly over 500 T
  • Belmod = Somewhere between 200 T and 440 T
[/spoiler]
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:08 pm

apex_pretador wrote: [*]100% Freeza (if he had not been injured) = 120,000,000
What this is supposed to mean? Freeza was at 100% of his power while fighting Goku on Namek.

[*]Vegeta = 55,000,000 , 2,750,000,000 , 5,500,000,000
[*]Gohan = 20,000,000 , 20,000,000,000
Vegeta said he wouldn't stay on #2 forever after he called Goku #1, why is he weaker than Gohan here?
[*]Piccolo = 801,000,000
[*]Gohan (rusty) = 20 M , 1 B
[*]Tagoma = 900 M
[*]SS Gotenks (very rusty) = First form Freeza = 1.2 B
Tagoma called Gohan the most dangerous fighter of the Z Fighters before knowing he could transform. Why is Piccolo above Gohan and so close to SSJ Gohan? Tagoma tanked Piccolo on a 16/Semi Cell fashion but got two shotted by Gohan. And why is Gotenks equals to 1st form Freeza? Gohan performed better than him against Tagoma and got ragdolled by Freeza with a finger.
[*]Final form Freeza (suppressed) = Base Goku/vegeta = 10 B
Why is Freeza so weak? At his 1st form everybody was afraid of him despite already seeing Goku displaying a power superior to Enraged Vegeta and pretty much everything on Z. And Kuririn says Goku is on another league compared to the last time he saw him yet he's weaker than Pure Boo? How?

[*]Gohan = 48 M, 2.4 B
[*]Piccolo = 2 B
Piccolo sparred evenly with Base Gohan.
[*]Frost = 300 M, 2 B, 7 B, 3.5 B (exhausted)
[*]Goku/vegeta = 11 B, 110 B, 5 T
Why is weakened Frost multifolder weaker than Vegeta? He needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to one shot him. And where is Piccolo?
Part 1
  • Super rusty 3 gotenks = 10.8 B
  • Base Goku / vegeta = 12 B
  • SSB Goku / vegeta = 7.5 T
  • Future trunks = 500 M, 25 B, 50 B
  • Goku Black (base) = 160 B
  • Zamasu = 6 B
Part 2
  • Future trunks (trained) = 3 B, 150 B, 300 B, 3.6 T (enraged)
  • Goku Black = 160 B (base), 6 T (SSR, initial) , 8 T (SSR, max power)
  • SSB Goku / vegeta = 7.5 T, 8 T (drawing power from rage)
  • SSRage Trunks = 7.2 T, 17.2 T (spirit bomb sword)
  • Zamasu = 600 B (immortal)
  • Merged Zamasu = 16 T (initial) with powerful barriers around him
  • KaioKen x10 SSB Goku = 60 T (weakened)
  • Full power merged zamasu = (8 T + 600 B)x20 = 172 T (unstable) , 17.2 T (weakened)
  • SSB Vegetto = (8 T + 8 T) x 60 = 960 T
  • Beerus = 900 to 1000 T (hypothetical max power according to shin)
  • Hit = 8 T
This part is too disorganizated tbh. Why is SSJR Black weaker than SSJB Vegeta? He stomped him and was ragdolling Goku until he got enraged. Why is Future Zamasu so weak? He was able to keep up with SSJB Goku on their fight. Where is the level of Post Rosat Vegeta? When did Goku use Kaioken x10 against Zamasu? He only yelled "Kaioken" and his aura indicates it wasn't at the limits. And Merged Zamasu was never implied

I'm not commenting on ToP Arc because i'm not keeping up by now and the powerscaling is too confuse.

And a tip btw: Use a scaling of 1 = 1 million instead of this M/B/T thing. It's too confuse and disorganized.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:17 pm

Help me out with the Garlic Jr saga guys because it's a bit confusing.

1. Is Gohan still supposed to be stronger than Piccolo? It seems like he should be.

2. Gohan went from being beaten around by Salt to killing a powered up Spice with a single Masenko. Did Gohan get stronger throughout the saga or was he not fighting at full power?

3. How strong is Garlic Jr? In base form he seemed to only have a slight disadvantage against Piccolo. As Super Garlic Jr he seemed all over the place. First he beat Piccolo easily, then Giant Piccolo beat Garlic Jr easily, then Piccolo somehow started to beat Garlic Jr around, then Gohan began beating him around and blasted a whole in him but then right after Garlic Jr began beating the tar out of Gohan and then finally Piccolo said that "ordinarily" Gohan would have been a match for him.

Would

Frieza (Third Form) > Super Garlic Jr > Gohan > Piccolo > Frieza (Second Form) > Super Spice/Vinegar > Frieza (First Form) > Spice/Vinegar > Salt/Mustard > Krillin

Be correct?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:20 pm

Bullza wrote:Help me out with the Garlic Jr saga guys because it's a bit confusing.

1. Is Gohan still supposed to be stronger than Piccolo? It seems like he should be.

2. Gohan went from being beaten around by Salt to killing a powered up Spice with a single Masenko. Did Gohan get stronger throughout the saga or was he not fighting at full power?

3. How strong is Garlic Jr? In base form he seemed to only have a slight disadvantage against Piccolo. As Super Garlic Jr he seemed all over the place. First he beat Piccolo easily, then Giant Piccolo beat Garlic Jr easily, then Piccolo somehow started to beat Garlic Jr around, then Gohan began beating him around and blasted a whole in him but then right after Garlic Jr began beating the tar out of Gohan and then finally Piccolo said that "ordinarily" Gohan would have been a match for him.

Would

Frieza (Third Form) > Super Garlic Jr > Gohan > Piccolo > Frieza (Second Form) > Super Spice/Vinegar > Frieza (First Form) > Spice/Vinegar > Salt/Mustard > Krillin

Be correct?
We have to factor in that Gohan has rage boosts. In the Frieza arc, it was clearly implied that Gohan was much weaker than Piccolo since he was no match for 2nd Form Frieza. It wasn't until he was enraged that he manages to rival 3rd Form Frieza.

The same can be applied to the Garlic Jr arc. I use the 200,000 number for Gohan for his intial "base" power. That's when he was losing to Salt. Then Gohan stops holding back, and is much stronger, coming close or surpassing Vegeta (vs First Form Frieza). I have him at around 600,000. Then he was enraged when he killed Super Spice and Super Vinegar, making that his full power. With that strength he obviously surpasses Piccolo, as seen in the Frieza arc.

Piccolo was also standing normally after Garlic Jr (transformed) was beating him around. He only transformed to show him the "true strenght" of a giant. Then he was losing because of Kami.

This is my chain:

Third Form Frieza >= Enraged Gohan > Piccolo > Super Garlic Jr > Second Form Frieza > Base Garlic Jr >= Super Spice > Super Vinegar > Gohan (not holding back) > First Form Frieza >= Salt > Vinegar > Mustard> Salt > Gohan (holding back vs Salt) > Krillin

Something I am begging to know is when exactly this arc takes place. If it's closer to the Mecha Frieza arc or closer to the post 260 days after Namek event. We also have to factor in that the fighters here are stronger than what they were in the Frieza arc. So my chain can be wrong and Gohan in his enraged strenght can already be stronger than 3rd Form Frieza, with Piccolo coming close to the latter, but not surpassing him.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:I use the 200,000 number for Gohan for his intial "base" power.
Shouldn't he be higher than that though? That 200,000 would Gohan at the start of that Frieza fight. Then he got angry and had the edge on Frieza but then he also had a Zenkai boost after and Vegeta said he'd grown even stronger.

So I'd have said Gohan would have been around a good million or so.
Something I am begging to know is when exactly this arc takes place. If it's closer to the Mecha Frieza arc or closer to the post 260 days after Namek event.
According to the History of Ever thread on here, it would be one month after the Frieza saga which would be 10 months after the actual fighting on Namek. So Piccolo would have grown stronger. Would Gohan have got stronger? Seems like he'd be at home all the time doing homework.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:41 pm

Bullza wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:I use the 200,000 number for Gohan for his intial "base" power.
Shouldn't he be higher than that though? That 200,000 would Gohan at the start of that Frieza fight. Then he got angry and had the edge on Frieza but then he also had a Zenkai boost after and Vegeta said he'd grown even stronger.

So I'd have said Gohan would have been around a good million or so.
Gohan can't be around a million. That's too close to Piccolo and it was said that Gohan and the others were way below Piccolo and 2nd Form Frieza. He should at least be stronger than Vegeta or First Form Frieza for Vegeta to say that Gohan got stronger. Vegeta said that chances were leaning more towards them, but that's not saying that together they can't still do anything against Frieza, only that hope was closer and closer. They were pretty much doomed until Piccolo arrived. Gohan is probably at around 600,000 at that point in my view.

Also, the 200,000 is not from the start of the Frieza arc, it looks more like it is around the time of Second to Third Form Frieza, and way after Piccolo's fusion with Nail. The guide where the levels are was also published around the time of 3rd Form Frieza in the manga. There's no way Gohan could've gotten to 200,000 just from the around 30,000 he had against Ginyu. He must have gotten into serious battles for him to reach that level, the same goes for Krillin, and all he did was waiting for Krillin and Dende to arrive and gather the dragon balls. The same goes for Krillin, he couldn't get from above 23,000 to 75,000 when doing nothing. It makes sense for the 200,000 and 75,000 readings to be around the time Piccolo was fighting Frieza or around the time Frieza was in his third form.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:25 pm

Some thoughts on the BP system and what it represents based on the manga evidence. Warning: wall of text.
[spoiler]As we all know from high school physics, power = energy/time. Since battle power readings explicitly measure power output, for a second let's take battle power to be a measure of energy/second per unit area. That matches what we know.

Speed is important here. So let's try to get a broad estimate. When Goku flew down Snake Way, it took him 48 hours to cover a distance of 1,000,000 kilometers, putting his speed at about 13,000 mph. This is assuming he just flew for two days straight at max speed. Doubtlessly he was going at below that, and probably took breaks in between. But that still gives a starting point. Say that's his equivalent of a light sustainable jog, around a third of what he can fully sprint. Boxer Ricky Hatton has an average punching speed of 25 mph, suggesting that how fast a person punches is broadly comparable (but lower) to how fast they can sprint. Well, assuming the same logic applies to flight of course. So we'll just use 39,000 mph/mach ~50 for how fast Goku throws his arm when he punches. Sorry for this paragraph about feats- this post mostly isn't about that, I just needed a benchmark.

Now let's take Vegeta from the Saiyan arc as an example to demonstrate this. The Kaio-Ken multipliers, which indicate that battle powers are linear at this point in the story (when they're not earlier), would suggest Vegeta is around twice as fast as Goku by virtue of having twice the battle power (Kaio-Ken is supposed to multiply speed proportionally with every other attribute). So he can throw his arm at mach ~100. Straightforward enough. His full force punch reaches mach 100 by the end of the half meter it travels. Meaning it accelerates at a rate of over 56.7 million gs (averaged) and travels over a period of 0.0000146 seconds (14.6 microseconds) before actually making landfall on his enemy's body. About half of that would be transferred to his equal opponent- the rest going back into his arm, heat, sound, etc.

At a battle power of 18,000, with battle powers being energy/second, this fist has accumulated a mere 0.0000146 x 18000 = 0.2628 units of energy—less if he's faster, paradoxically enough.

Scaling this travel time to the impact time on a normal human's punch (roughly 0.24 seconds travel and 0.06 seconds impact), and the impact time of Vegeta's punch is only 0.00000365 seconds. 0.2628/2 = 0.1314 units of energy in 0.00000365 seconds (3.65 microseconds) would be a power of 36,000, compared to the power 18,000 that generated it.

We know his battle power shoots up by concentrating it into a single point, a la Raditz (makes sense enough), and we know they do this with their energy attacks. As far as planet-busting power levels go (since we know Vegeta's Galick Gun can erase the Earth), what I can say is this: Goku's Kaio-Ken x3 that was stalemating Vegeta's Galick Gun with the same contact area had a battle power of 24,000. That seems perfectly reasonable. Vegeta's planet buster might have been a bit higher since Goku implied he would lose eventually, but I'll just use that.

There's not really any hard time-frame on it in the manga, and the anime seemingly isn't taking place in real time (see "five minutes on Namek"), but we know he said a couple lines of dialogue the whole time charging it (and presumably didn't have super-fast-talking-powers) and was done by the time he made his threat. With that said, around 10 seconds seems a reasonable time frame to charge it.

At the end of 10 seconds at a battle power of 24,000, the energy used up is 240,000 units—over 1.8 million times more than the punch. But the rate at which it's transferred is actually lower- he's taking about 10 seconds to transfer all that energy (if his discharge time matches charge time), so the energy/second is still 24,000 compared to the punch's 36,000. So ki emission based passive defenses would not be as good at actually stopping it, given enough actual energy to match the planet busting.

But wait! There's more! The fact that it's using a lot more energy is reflected by its contact area. While its transferring that power at a lower rate, it's doing it all along the target's body. When Goku's Kamehameha, which is the exact same size as Veget's Galick Gun, hits Vegeta, it seems to have a moderately higher contact area than the front half of Vegeta's body. The average man has a surface area of 1.9 m^2, and while Vegeta's a small dude, at an official 5'4 he isn't a midget or anything. So the blast's contact area being moderately larger than half his surface area would put it its contact area at around 1 square meter (1,550 square inches). In that case it covers an area around x200 larger than Vegeta's 8 square inch fist. But, for the battle power comparison to hold up, the power per unit area of his punches and blasts have to match up with the battle power difference. So his punch should only have 50% more power per unit area. Power per unit area is called intensity, and when you consider things like the Special Beam Cannon and Oozarus, "battle power" itself seems to be a measure of intensity.

So really, he has to have MORE than x1.8 million the energy of his punch in his blast to get 2/3 the intensity at x200 the contact area, if battle powers count unit area, which they do. Let's put in terms of battle power units/square inch. The earlier numbers only accounted for time, not volume. In other words "36,000" should not be the total power, but power per square inch, the intensity. If Vegeta's fist transfers energy at a rate of 36,000 units per second per square inch, then along its whole 8 inch contact area its total power is 288,000 units. With a punch duration of 0.00000365 seconds, that puts the total energy of the punch at 288,000 x 0.00000365 = 1.0512 units. Meanwhile, his blast has an intensity of 24,000 power units per square inch along a ~1,550 inch contact area. In that case the total power of his Galick Gun is 37,200,000. At a discharge time of 10 seconds, that puts the total energy of the blast at 37,200,000 x 10 = 372,000,000.

Now what happens if he fires that blast at someone? Well, the situation is still how it was earlier. If that 24,000 battle power blast hits a foe, who in turn is outputting a battle power (energy per second per square inch in this exercise) of 18,000 for his passive defense (which the scouter would read him at if he was just standing there), it's going to hurt a lot, but still be mostly negated by his passive defense. Compared to a punch the blast, despite transferring energy more slowly, will do more damage, but not nearly as much as the energy difference suggests; it's being sustained longer, so it's like he's getting punched at 2/3 power everywhere on his body over and over again for 10 seconds, BUT that's still not as bad as if a punch with a battle power of, say, 72,000 hit his opponent. Not totally unmanageable, since it's still being delivered at a rate his defenses can (barely) handle, but still damaging and potentially enough to end the fight.

Now what happens if he punches that person instead? Vegeta hits him at an intensity of 36,000 units. Some of the damage is bleeding through, more than in the energy blast due to the lower intensity, but it's not being sustained as long. On the other hand, if Vegeta delivers a punch with an intensity of 72,000 units to someone whose passive defense is only 18,000, his opponent's passive defense does nothing meaningful to blunt his blow, an immense amount of energy "bleeds through," the intensity of his punch entirely overcomes his opponent'e defenses, and the opponent is killed outright. Even though that same intensity of passive defense could've defended him from the 24,000 blast well enough.

To put this into further context, take an example of a 10mm thick high-hardness steel plate. You could stick it into a campfire and keep it lit until the end of time, burning infinitely with infinite amounts of energy, but the steel will never melt. You can also get Rocky Marciano to hit it with his famous 1,080-joule punch, and have an infinite number of Rocky Marcianos hit it with an infinite number of punches, and the steel will never break. But turn up the heat a few thousand degrees and you can melt it in moments and not expend all that much at all. Shoot it with a 5.56x45mm green tip round with a mere 1,700 joules of energy (with the impact lasting an infinitesimal fraction of a second), and it will zip right through. That's the best comparison I can make between a 24,000 blast sustained for ten seconds and a 72,000 punch sustained for a mere fraction of a second, and the best way I can think of to get across the concept of power in regards to durability. Ten seconds is a tiny amount of time for just about anyone (even most comic book supers like Thor), but when you're swinging your arm at massively hypersonic speeds and your punches last microseconds, that may as well be an eternity.

Anyway, back to energy. The blast has 372,000,000 energy units in total by the time it's done firing compared to 1.0152 units in the punch. That's more than x370 million difference. Whoa. If you'll allow me to dredge up a real-world comparison again- the global binding energy of Earth is equivalent to 57,300,000 petatons of TNT. If you exceed this, you've passed the minimum threshold for "destroying" the Earth. Considering Vegeta said he would turn Earth "into space-dust," implying a very violent destruction, it seems reasonable his Galick Gun far exceeded the minimum required energy value to destroy the Earth. In that case, with my entirely bullshitted but still logically extrapolated numbers, 1 energy unit would equate to 1 petaton. At least at this point in the series.[/spoiler]
tl;dr
Power is not the same as energy.

"Battle power" is a measure of intensity (energy/time = power, power/area = intensity).

Planet-busting energy attacks have hundreds of millions of times the raw energy output of punches.

Punches often have higher intensity than energy blasts.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ahill1 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:37 am

I wish the Super manga give us some clarification about power placements that were left unclear in the original manga, which hasn't been done so far. Since in the next chapter Goku will be off recruiting people for the tournament, I hope we kind of get a more set in stone placement for the Earthlings. Also, do you guys think it's possible we also get a placement for Piccolo before fusing with Kami? Considering it is not set in stone, I'd embrace everything so long it isn't so ridiculously low like base Saiyajin from androids saga level lol.


Also, that seems an interesting post RG96. I'll analyze it better when I have a bit more of time.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:48 am

ahill1 wrote:I wish the Super manga give us some clarification about power placements that were left unclear in the original manga, which hasn't been done so far. Since in the next chapter Goku will be off recruiting people for the tournament, I hope we kind of get a more set in stone placement for the Earthlings. Also, do you guys think it's possible we also get a placement for Piccolo before fusing with Kami? Considering it is not set in stone, I'd embrace everything so long it isn't so ridiculously low like base Saiyajin from androids saga level lol.


Also, that seems an interesting post RG96. I'll analyze it better when I have a bit more of time.
I sorta doubt that Toyotaro would bother going over ancient history, like how strong Piccolo was nearly fifteen years ago. If Goten and Trunks ever becomes relevant again, we might get some clarification on how strong they and Gotenks are supposed to be, which is one of the biggest controversies from a power scaling perspective. I'd say that there's a decent chance of the Earthlings getting solid power placements sometime in the future, though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:56 am

ahill1 wrote:I wish the Super manga give us some clarification about power placements that were left unclear in the original manga, which hasn't been done so far. Since in the next chapter Goku will be off recruiting people for the tournament, I hope we kind of get a more set in stone placement for the Earthlings. Also, do you guys think it's possible we also get a placement for Piccolo before fusing with Kami? Considering it is not set in stone, I'd embrace everything so long it isn't so ridiculously low like base Saiyajin from androids saga level lol.
I dumno it tbh. All we know for now is that all of them still weaker than #18 as Goku said #18 should be invited because she's stronger than his husband. Roshi also seemed to be stronger than Yamcha, considering he was chosen over him. I don't see any reason for the manga to explore into Piccolo's power pre merge, nor i think his power was left unclear.

I don't think we are getting any of the kids either. All we know is that they were excluded due to the lack of experience. And considering how the new material looks down on the kids, i wouldn't trust Toyotaro either. The original manga and Daizenshuu gives enough info about the kids' power IMO.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:43 am

ahill1 wrote:I wish the Super manga give us some clarification about power placements that were left unclear in the original manga, which hasn't been done so far. Since in the next chapter Goku will be off recruiting people for the tournament, I hope we kind of get a more set in stone placement for the Earthlings. Also, do you guys think it's possible we also get a placement for Piccolo before fusing with Kami? Considering it is not set in stone, I'd embrace everything so long it isn't so ridiculously low like base Saiyajin from androids saga level lol.


Also, that seems an interesting post RG96. I'll analyze it better when I have a bit more of time.
It did.

Future Trunks flashback with Dabura confirmed the latter is low SS2 tier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Do you think the Base Saiyans Pre-RoSAT managed to break 4 million?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:09 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Do you think the Base Saiyans Pre-RoSAT managed to break 4 million?
Sure. I have Goku and Vegeta at around 5 million at the start of the Android arc, and Trunks isn't far behind them.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Do you think the Base Saiyans Pre-RoSAT managed to break 4 million?
Sure. I have Goku and Vegeta at around 5 million at the start of the Android arc, and Trunks isn't far behind them.
Trunks was already weaker than Goku before the timeskip and I doubt he improved all that much in the future, especially if you go with the interpretation that he only spent 8 months in the future. Despite this he was close to the other SSJs so they shouldn't be that much stronger than they were pre-time skip.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:40 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Trunks was already weaker than Goku before the timeskip and I doubt he improved all that much in the future, especially if you go with the interpretation that he only spent 8 months in the future. Despite this he was close to the other SSJs so they shouldn't be that much stronger than they were pre-time skip.
Well first of all, there's nothing that outright confirms that Trunks was weaker than Goku three years prior. For all we know, they could've been dead even with each other, or Trunks could have been a bit stronger. Second, Trunks is a half-Saiyan, so he would be growing at a much faster rate than Goku or Vegeta, which is backed up when you consider the fact that base-form Gohan was capable of holding his own against 14-year-old Super Saiyan Trunks, and Trunks ended up catching up to him with three years of solo training. So it's perfectly plausible that Goku and Vegeta could improve a lot an still end up only somewhat ahead of Trunks despite having much more training time.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:56 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Trunks was already weaker than Goku before the timeskip and I doubt he improved all that much in the future, especially if you go with the interpretation that he only spent 8 months in the future. Despite this he was close to the other SSJs so they shouldn't be that much stronger than they were pre-time skip.
Well first of all, there's nothing that outright confirms that Trunks was weaker than Goku three years prior. For all we know, they could've been dead even with each other, or Trunks could have been a bit stronger. Second, Trunks is a half-Saiyan, so he would be growing at a much faster rate than Goku or Vegeta, which is backed up when you consider the fact that base-form Gohan was capable of holding his own against 14-year-old Super Saiyan Trunks, and Trunks ended up catching up to him with three years of solo training. So it's perfectly plausible that Goku and Vegeta could improve a lot an still end up only somewhat ahead of Trunks despite having much more training time.
But Trunks' gains in the RoSAT were no better than Vegeta's, and he achieved less in 2 years than Goku did in 10 months even though he knew Goku's method when he went in the second time.

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