Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:25 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:It wouldn't be a more direct interpretation. What the Grand Elder says is blatantly direct, there's nothing to interpret there. He read Kuririn's mind he's not going off on theories and he's easily one of the most wise and competent characters in all of Dragon Ball.

Unless you prove his statement is wrong, there's nothing else to say.

I'm not saying the Grand Elder is wrong. All he says is "He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth!". He never says anything about them doubling in strength by recombining. That is your interpretation. Mine happens to be different.

Immediately following it with, he maybe wouldn't have died at the hand of the Saiyans, which pretty much says that recombining is exactly like when splitting ,it's in the context of his speech. That's why I say it's direct and not open to interpretation.

But we have a way to solve this, since it happened later on. How much stronger does Piccolo get after becoming Kamiccolo, for you? There's the answer.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby DanielSSJ » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:08 am

LightBing wrote:Immediately following it with, he maybe wouldn't have died at the hand of the Saiyans, which pretty much says that recombining is exactly like when splitting, it's in the context of his speech. That's why I say it's direct and not open to interpretation.

But we have a way to solve this, since it happened later on. How much stronger does Piccolo get after becoming Kamiccolo, for you? There's the answer.

Splitting in half is not the same thing as recombining, since in the latter case, power is being created out of nowhere.

On my old lists, it is a two-fold boost. But that's because I just started to question the two-fold thing recently. Anyways, the Android arc fusion has nothing to do with a hypothetical Freeza arc fusion. My opinion about most kinds of fusions is that they are heavily dependent on how similar the fusees are. God's power might have a greater effect on a Piccolo with a battle power in the mid ten thousands rather than one with a 100 million+ power, or if he had been a Warrior-type Namekian.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:37 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:Immediately following it with, he maybe wouldn't have died at the hand of the Saiyans, which pretty much says that recombining is exactly like when splitting, it's in the context of his speech. That's why I say it's direct and not open to interpretation.

But we have a way to solve this, since it happened later on. How much stronger does Piccolo get after becoming Kamiccolo, for you? There's the answer.

Splitting in half is not the same thing as recombining, since in the latter case, power is being created out of nowhere.

On my old lists, it is a two-fold boost. But that's because I just started to question the two-fold thing recently. Anyways, the Android arc fusion has nothing to do with a hypothetical Freeza arc fusion. My opinion about most kinds of fusions is that they are heavily dependent on how similar the fusees are. God's power might have a greater effect on a Piccolo with a battle power in the mid ten thousands rather than one with a 100 million+ power, or if he had been a Warrior-type Namekian.

I really think you are complicating something which is simple and actually unambiguous, which is pretty rare in Dragon Ball.

Agreed to disagree then.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby Pokezeldamaster » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:25 am

My personal power level list for the Dragon Ball series from Chapters 1-519:
Search for the Dragon Balls arc

21st tecnkaichi Budokai arc

The RR Army arc

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc

King Piccolo arc

23rd tenkaichi budokai arc

Saiyan arc

Namek arc

Cell arc

Majin Boo arc

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:17 pm

Pokezeldamaster wrote:Blah


Just a tip: It's impossible to fit Early DB in scouter numbers as Toriyama wasn't thinking on them at time. With that said, let's go to the list:





















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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:43 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Just a tip: It's impossible to fit Early DB in scouter numbers as Toriyama wasn't thinking on them at time. With that said, let's go to the list:

Do you have a quote to support this? Because that's a big assumption to make. One that I disagree with, specially since Mr.Toriyama for the most part always made an effort to tell us how strong everybody is, either with statements or visually. Scouter numbers basically helped him simplify this aspect.
I know Mr.Toriyama is famous for making things up as he went along but let's not grab this characteristic and insert it in everything.

I don't believe he gave Goku 4xx at the start randomly, he gave it after telling us a regular human is a 5. I say that's pretty intentional in creating a scale in regards to the past.
If he didn't bother thinking about power levels in the context of the previous battles, he would have avoided giving Farmer with a shotgun a number, covering his back and leaving us wondering until the rest of time. People would be furiously discussing how some think humans are at 1 and other why they are at 20.

Now I'm not saying Mr.Toriyama created this system after extensively analysing his story and doing a bunch of maths. But he must have thought about it and he mostly did it right. I tried to build a list for the pre-scouter era and I was successful, with only a couple of problems who need head-cannon to make it work.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby DanielSSJ » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:59 pm

LightBing wrote:Do you have a quote to support this? Because that's a big assumption to make. One that I disagree with, specially since Mr.Toriyama for the most part always made an effort to tell us how strong everybody is, either with statements or visually. Scouter numbers basically helped him simplify this aspect.
I know Mr.Toriyama is famous for making things up as he went along but let's not grab this characteristic and insert it in everything.

I don't believe he gave Goku 4xx at the start randomly, he gave it after telling us a regular human is a 5. I say that's pretty intentional in creating a scale in regards to the past.
If he didn't bother thinking about power levels in the context of the previous battles, he would have avoided giving Farmer with a shotgun a number, covering his back and leaving us wondering until the rest of time. People would be furiously discussing how some think humans are at 1 and other why they are at 20.

Now I'm not saying Mr.Toriyama created this system after extensively analysing his story and doing a bunch of maths. But he must have thought about it and he mostly did it right. I tried to build a list for the pre-scouter era and I was successful, with only a couple of problems who need head-cannon to make it work.

Speaking of which, do you currently have a list finsihed? I'd like to see where you have everybody.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:32 am

DanielSSJ wrote:Speaking of which, do you currently have a list finsihed? I'd like to see where you have everybody.

I do. But my lists are old, I've changed perspective about a lot of things since then. Although until the Android Arc they probably barely need touching.

Let me know if there's an arc/part/characters your're interested in.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby DanielSSJ » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:44 pm

LightBing wrote:I do. But my lists are old, I've changed perspective about a lot of things since then. Although until the Android Arc they probably barely need touching.

Let me know if there's an arc/part/characters your're interested in.

How about the pre-Raditz stuff?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:33 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:How about the pre-Raditz stuff?

Here you go.
Disclaimers: This list is more than 1 year old, consider it flawed and needing improvement.

I built this list by knowing that an adult human is at 5, presuming the gaps from there. Then I would give numbers based on the characters fight's and what have you, I would look at the end game (Raditz arc numbers) and try to avoid giving characters disproportional increases, usually between training periods. At the end of each arc I would go back and correct/adjust the numbers, based on new quotes and to keep in line with the Raditz arc numbers. It was quite a bit of work.

Regarding the gaps they are based on the outcome of the battles in the manga that we know the numbers of both fighters. For example Vegeta vs Kiwi.
25%+ gap - No way of winning.
24% - 10% gap - Can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, etc...
10% and lower - Should be an even fight.
These are not hard unbending rules, they are guidelines. I look at each fight individually and take into account: abilities, mental state, damage taken, endurance, everything!

You'll need to ask me specifically regarding any non obvious number. I didn't write the reasoning beside the numbers because it would be a long, long read.

Dragon Ball Search Arc/Kame Sennin Training


21st Tenkaichi Budokai


Red Ribbon Army Arc


Urunai Baba Tournament Arc


22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc


Piccolo Daimao Arc


23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:57 pm

LightBing wrote:Do you have a quote to support this? Because that's a big assumption to make. One that I disagree with, specially since Mr.Toriyama for the most part always made an effort to tell us how strong everybody is, either with statements or visually. Scouter numbers basically helped him simplify this aspect.
I know Mr.Toriyama is famous for making things up as he went along but let's not grab this characteristic and insert it in everything.

I don't believe he gave Goku 4xx at the start randomly, he gave it after telling us a regular human is a 5. I say that's pretty intentional in creating a scale in regards to the past.
If he didn't bother thinking about power levels in the context of the previous battles, he would have avoided giving Farmer with a shotgun a number, covering his back and leaving us wondering until the rest of time. People would be furiously discussing how some think humans are at 1 and other why they are at 20.

Now I'm not saying Mr.Toriyama created this system after extensively analysing his story and doing a bunch of maths. But he must have thought about it and he mostly did it right. I tried to build a list for the pre-scouter era and I was successful, with only a couple of problems who need head-cannon to make it work.


Not a quote, just a gut feeling. I think the scouter numbers are more to show the power scaling between the characters at that exact time instad of making a bridge with the first part of the series as it contradicts all the bloat from the Piccolo Daimao and Jr Arcs. I'll take your list for an example:

It's pretty ok to do the numbas until the 22nd Budokai. I see some major flaws, but that's another subject.
Would you mind showing the other levels Goku, Tenshinhan and Jackie showed? Even if they were just change of efforts, they are pretty important to build up the differente between Kuririn/Yamcha/Chaotsu and Goku/Ten/Roshi. Chappa also should be on Korin Goku level as he's used as an measure stick by Yamcha and Roshi, bumping the rest of the list.
Piccolo's less than half is just that? I don't think there was anything wrong with Goku's mind to make him take such a bad beatdown from Piccolo. He completely humiliated Goku. Piccolo or Piano also said there was no comparison between his old and his young self, and Goku could tell Piccolo was holding back during their warm up, implying Young Daimao (40%) >> Old Daimao (100%). Tambourine also treats Cymbal was much weaker tham him. Not many times like he said, as he should still be > Kuririn, but it's a considerable gap.
You missed the whole chain that makes the bridge between Piccolo Daimao and his son. After Goku take of his weights and completely humiliated Tenshinhan so badly he couldn't even track him with his 3 eyes, Tenshinhan estimates Goku has way more in the tank, however he's completely astonished by Shen's power and thinks no one could be so strong. A limbless Goku is also implied to be above everybody else.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:03 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Not a quote, just a gut feeling. I think the scouter numbers are more to show the power scaling between the characters at that exact time instad of making a bridge with the first part of the series as it contradicts all the bloat from the Piccolo Daimao and Jr Arcs. I'll take your list for an example:

It's pretty ok to do the numbas until the 22nd Budokai. I see some major flaws, but that's another subject.
Would you mind showing the other levels Goku, Tenshinhan and Jackie showed? Even if they were just change of efforts, they are pretty important to build up the differente between Kuririn/Yamcha/Chaotsu and Goku/Ten/Roshi. Chappa also should be on Korin Goku level as he's used as an measure stick by Yamcha and Roshi, bumping the rest of the list.
Piccolo's less than half is just that? I don't think there was anything wrong with Goku's mind to make him take such a bad beatdown from Piccolo. He completely humiliated Goku. Piccolo or Piano also said there was no comparison between his old and his young self, and Goku could tell Piccolo was holding back during their warm up, implying Young Daimao (40%) >> Old Daimao (100%). Tambourine also treats Cymbal was much weaker tham him. Not many times like he said, as he should still be > Kuririn, but it's a considerable gap.
You missed the whole chain that makes the bridge between Piccolo Daimao and his son. After Goku take of his weights and completely humiliated Tenshinhan so badly he couldn't even track him with his 3 eyes, Tenshinhan estimates Goku has way more in the tank, however he's completely astonished by Shen's power and thinks no one could be so strong. A limbless Goku is also implied to be above everybody else.

I'll try to answers the best I can, I'm going by memory here. Like I said this is a old list that I currently consider needing improvement.

I don't have any other levels. I usually don't add tiers to the characters since it's mostly unnecessary. Although I probably should have add the "match-level" for Goku since that is relevant enough.

Chapa doesn't need to be above Goku from the previous arc. No character mentions it. The information given is based on how easily Goku defeated him. The only requisite for Chapa is that he needs to be really strong.

That's probably something I need to adjust, 18% gap isn't enough it should be a bit more. I don't get where you pulled up that Young Daimao (40%) >> Old Daimao (100%). Why is Daimaõ holding back at 40% specifically in this scenario?
His Young Self is much stronger than his Old Self in my numbers, the "no comparison line" doesn't come with a number attached to it. In my opinion the requirement was achieved.
I agree Cymbal should be more weaker than he his. Although why does he need to be above Kuririn?

What chain? I don't understand you complains regarding this part. I went back and the only problem it exists is that Goku with weights should be a bit stronger than I have him at. The rest is perfectly fine.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:41 pm

LightBing wrote:I don't have any other levels. I usually don't add tiers to the characters since it's mostly unnecessary. Although I probably should have add the "match-level" for Goku since that is relevant enough.


Roshi's power before he took his shirt is kinda of important to figure out Tsuru's power, and he's only stated to be surpassed once Roshi goes all out.


Chapa doesn't need to be above Goku from the previous arc. No character mentions it. The information given is based on how easily Goku defeated him. The only requisite for Chapa is that he needs to be really strong.


Yamcha and Jackie hyped him a lot:

Chapter: 114, P14.1-4
Context: Goku’s first opponent in the prelims is King Chapa.
Yamcha: “So that’s King Chapa, huh…? Poor Goku… To have to face such a tremendous opponent right away…”
Kuririn: “Who’s this King Chapa?”
Yamcha: “He’s said to be an incredible master…It seems that when he last participated, he won the entire tournament without once being struck by an opponent…!”
Kuririn: “Whoa…”
Yamcha: “Th-this could be bad… Of course, it is Goku… If he’s really on, he may squeak by…”

Chapter: 115, P1.2-3
Jackie Chun: “Mmm… King Chapa, eh…?”
Yamcha: “Mr. Chun…?”
Jackie Chun: “Son Goku has certainly found himself in a sticky match right from the very start…”
Yamcha: “Indeed…”


What Roshi says next isn't on the strength checker, but he says something like "Let's see how much Goku improved" implying Chappa was a match for his last power. Although they can't sense Ki, this is the author talking about his characters and using a character to determinate how strong Goku is now.

That's probably something I need to adjust, 18% gap isn't enough it should be a bit more. I don't get where you pulled up that Young Daimao (40%) >> Old Daimao (100%). Why is Daimaõ holding back at 40% specifically in this scenario?


Sorry, miswrote it. By "40%" i mean the power he used against Goku. I generally think he's 40%, but that's just me.

His Young Self is much stronger than his Old Self in my numbers, the "no comparison line" doesn't come with a number attached to it. In my opinion the requirement was achieved.


With this quote i feel like there is no comparison between their forms, not even between the weakest of the current and the strongest of the former. Goku could also tell Piccolo wasn't going all out, something he wouldn't suspect if Initial Young Daimao was still weaker than all Old Daimao could put.

I agree Cymbal should be more weaker than he his. Although why does he need to be above Kuririn?


Tambourine was surprised a human managed to kill him and he already fought Kuririn at this point.

What chain? I don't understand you complains regarding this part. I went back and the only problem it exists is that Goku with weights should be a bit stronger than I have him at. The rest is perfectly fine.


After Goku take of his weights and completely humiliated Tenshinhan so badly he couldn't even track him with his 3 eyes, Tenshinhan estimates Goku has way more in the tank, however he's completely astonished by Shen's power and thinks no one could be so strong. A limbless Goku is also implied to be above everybody else when he beats a Piccolo who could beat God and the humans at the same time.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:24 pm

Roshi never went all out, Tenshinhan said he still had more to give. It's with that in mind and with Tenshinhan himself admitting Jackie Chun was better than his master that I placed Tsuru's power.

King Chapa being stronger than the previous Goku is actually contradictory. Since Master Roshi was shocked when he heard the news that Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai. Who is weaker than that version of Goku.

There's still a bunch of room if Young Daimaõ holding back is just 100% of Old Daimaõ. Again I think this part is perfectly fine.

Of course Tambourine was surprised. He knew Kuririn was one of the finalists at the tournament, therefore one of the strongest humans and he killed him. There isn't much competition left. Cymbal doesn't need to be stronger than Kuririn, he wasn't in Tambourine's mind when the assessment was made.

I'm sorry I still don't get what you mean regarding the last bit.
Full Power Goku > Shen > Hypothetical Goku(What Tenshinhan imagined) > Goku against Tenshinhan. This is what you're describing, what's wrong with it? How does it relate to my numbers? I don't see a problem with it.

Piccolo couldn't beat Kami and the humans at the same time. I know the line of the manga that you are referring to and that's just Piccolo posturing and bad writing from Mr.Toriyama.

The line is literally contradicted first by Piccolo himself, who after fighting Kuririn says conquering the World might not be so easy after all, and that's Kuririn who's much weaker than Tenshinhan and Kami.
The line is contradicted again, a few panels before it's said. Kami blocks a full-powered punch from Piccolo, not a love tap, a punch from a Piccolo rushing at full speed and yelling "die"!

Maybe a Piccolo at full power could defeat Kami and the humans together; not the Piccolo who uttered the sentence, who was clearly battle damaged, that one had no chance at all.
Of course ending such an epic battle in such a way would suck and Goku is the protagonist, he had to win. Mr.Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and come up with a pretty crappy way to escape.

Piccolo tanked a Full-Power Kamehameha from Goku and spent much more energy than Goku during the fight, like that wide area explosion attack. That's why I have him above Goku and also because Kami intervened at a key moment, when Piccolo was clearly with the momentum at his side and could end the fight there.
Goku won that fight because he was the better and smarter fighter.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby dragonball0900 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:23 pm

LightBing wrote:King Chapa being stronger than the previous Goku is actually contradictory. Since Master Roshi was shocked when he heard the news that Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai. Who is weaker than that version of Goku.

Just want to point this bit out. Roshi was also aware of Goku destroying the whole Red Ribbon army, and also knew how fast Goku was moving, as he saw him defeating foes like Mummy Man and even Akkuman, and later Grandpa Gohan, yet 3 years later he thought a supposedly stronger Goku was going to have problems in a tough fight with King Chappa. The same can be said for Yamcha, he knows a lot of information about Budokai fighters, and he also thought Goku was going to have a tough fight with Chappa. Of course, King Chappa was there to show how much Goku has improved. He doesn't have to surpass Baba Arc Goku, however chances are that they are both equals, probably like if the story was telling us how 22nd Budokai Arc Goku can compare to the Goku from the previous arc.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:15 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
LightBing wrote:King Chapa being stronger than the previous Goku is actually contradictory. Since Master Roshi was shocked when he heard the news that Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai. Who is weaker than that version of Goku.

Just want to point this bit out. Roshi was also aware of Goku destroying the whole Red Ribbon army, and also knew how fast Goku was moving, as he saw him defeating foes like Mummy Man and even Akkuman, and later Grandpa Gohan, yet 3 years later he thought a supposedly stronger Goku was going to have problems in a tough fight with King Chappa. The same can be said for Yamcha, he knows a lot of information about Budokai fighters, and he also thought Goku was going to have a tough fight with Chappa. Of course, King Chappa was there to show how much Goku has improved. He doesn't have to surpass Baba Arc Goku, however chances are that they are both equals, probably like if the story was telling us how 22nd Budokai Arc Goku can compare to the Goku from the previous arc.

What Yamcha says is to be ignored. He's going by fame, he doesn't actually know how strong King Chapa is only that he won the TB without getting hit once.

All Jackie Chun say is it could be a sticky match. That just means King Chapa is strong, if he was as strong as the previous Goku we would be told about it. Mr.Toriyama doesn't beat around the bush.

In that tournament Mr.Toriyama pulls the classic comparison of a previous villain, in this case Tao Pai Pai, to hype up Goku. It's not just Master Roshi, it''s also Tenshinhan and Tsuru-sennin getting surprised Goku is that strong.
This all happens after King Chapa, it's blatant that Goku(previous arc) > Tao Pai Pai > Goku(vs Chapa) > King Chapa.

The only person who surpasses Tao Pai Pai until Goku fight's Tenshinhan is Kuririn. Based on the following quote:

Chapter: 126, P4.1-2
Goku: “Amazin’! You’ve gotten better!”
Kuririn: Hihhih! Are you surprised?”
Goku: “I’ve never had such a fun fight! I’m really excited!”
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:17 pm

LightBing wrote:Roshi never went all out, Tenshinhan said he still had more to give. It's with that in mind and with Tenshinhan himself admitting Jackie Chun was better than his master that I placed Tsuru's power.

King Chapa being stronger than the previous Goku is actually contradictory. Since Master Roshi was shocked when he heard the news that Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai. Who is weaker than that version of Goku.

There's still a bunch of room if Young Daimaõ holding back is just 100% of Old Daimaõ. Again I think this part is perfectly fine.

Of course Tambourine was surprised. He knew Kuririn was one of the finalists at the tournament, therefore one of the strongest humans and he killed him. There isn't much competition left. Cymbal doesn't need to be stronger than Kuririn, he wasn't in Tambourine's mind when the assessment was made.

I'm sorry I still don't get what you mean regarding the last bit.
Full Power Goku > Shen > Hypothetical Goku(What Tenshinhan imagined) > Goku against Tenshinhan. This is what you're describing, what's wrong with it? How does it relate to my numbers? I don't see a problem with it.

Piccolo couldn't beat Kami and the humans at the same time. I know the line of the manga that you are referring to and that's just Piccolo posturing and bad writing from Mr.Toriyama.

The line is literally contradicted first by Piccolo himself, who after fighting Kuririn says conquering the World might not be so easy after all, and that's Kuririn who's much weaker than Tenshinhan and Kami.
The line is contradicted again, a few panels before it's said. Kami blocks a full-powered punch from Piccolo, not a love tap, a punch from a Piccolo rushing at full speed and yelling "die"!

Maybe a Piccolo at full power could defeat Kami and the humans together; not the Piccolo who uttered the sentence, who was clearly battle damaged, that one had no chance at all.
Of course ending such an epic battle in such a way would suck and Goku is the protagonist, he had to win. Mr.Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and come up with a pretty crappy way to escape.

Piccolo tanked a Full-Power Kamehameha from Goku and spent much more energy than Goku during the fight, like that wide area explosion attack. That's why I have him above Goku and also because Kami intervened at a key moment, when Piccolo was clearly with the momentum at his side and could end the fight there.
Goku won that fight because he was the better and smarter fighter.


Tao Pai Pai is pretty hyped. All the finalists (Except Wolf man and Pamputto) wouldn't have much trouble with him, considering Kuririn and Yamcha's confidence at the Budokai and Chaotsu being pretty close to them without his telekinesis. Tao is the biggest mercenary on the world and brother of the legendary Crane Hermit, of course he'd have way more reputation than a guy who won a Budokai without being touched. Chappa's scene loses all the weight if he's weaker than Korin Goku, let alone Tao. How someone weaker than someone Goku beat 3 years ago could be used a measure stick?

I'd say <50% Young was stronger than 100% Old. He's treated as a whole different tier. Initial Choushinsui Goku was also all confident on beating Piccolo even knowing he wasn't using half of his power, however <50% Young Daimao keeps up with him pretty well and even knocks him down by waving his hand.

How would the "Full Power Goku > Kami > Shen > Goku (Tenshinhan's mind) > Goku (Vs Tenshinhan) > Tenshinhan" chain would look like in your numbers? It could work if BoZ Goku and Piccolo are in the 900s, but no way in hell on the 400s.

Piccolo still haven't seen Tenshinhan in action, though. I think his quote is more like "If this random guy is strong, imagine what Goku would do". Kami blocking Piccolo's punch is pretty weird, considering he earlier said he was hopeless against Piccolo and totally refused to fight a way more weakened one when he was about to kill Goku. I don't like the "Lame writing" excuse, but i'd say it is.

Yeah, that ending was pretty lame. It still doens't change that the mighty hero Goku was stronger than everybody else without having his limbs.

Sometimes the 23rd Budokai reminds me the Buu Arc, with the powerscaling all over the place and the lame way of having Goku to save the day :lol:

The only person who surpasses Tao Pai Pai until Goku fight's Tenshinhan is Kuririn. Based on the following quote:
Chapter: 126, P4.1-2
Goku: “Amazin’! You’ve gotten better!”
Kuririn: Hihhih! Are you surprised?”
Goku: “I’ve never had such a fun fight! I’m really excited!”


I don't think this implies Kuririn is the first one to surpass Tao. This is pretty much his first good fight at the Budokai. It could imply Kuririn >> Chappa, though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LightBing » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:32 pm

It's common for weaker opponents to be used to hype people. Just in this tournament it happens a few times and much more in all of Dragon Ball. Yamcha beats a random scrub and get's a "wow you have been training hard", does this mean that random scrub is stronger than the previous iteration of Yamcha?

These weak opponents can be used as measuring sticks based on how easily they are defeated. The intention of the narrative is to hype in phases, first Chapa is talked up as a strong opponent, Goku defeats him with ease and says he can't wait for real opponents, Jackie Chun upon hearing this gets worried.

Phase 2 is introducing the power-scale in regards to the previous strongest foe Tao Pai Pai, based on everyone's reaction he's still very relevant. We have Goku win against Pamput easily and Tenshinhan starts believing Goku isn't lying, becoming unsettled. Pamput isn't even near Tao Pai Pai and he doesn't need to be, again inference is given to how easily Goku defeated him.

Phase 3 is discovering Goku has two levels and hasn't been fighting seriously yet, therefore pushing him further above everybody else. That line against Kuririn in my opinion is confirmation Kuririn is the first opponent to be above Tao Pai Pai, demonstrating cleanly the progression.

Anyway that's it for me regarding this bit, if we don't agreed it's fine. The argument is getting circular, we are starting to repeat ourselves.

Very quickly it would look like this: 356 > 320 > 300 > 270 > 231(Speed advantage and endurance advantage) > 231
It needs adjusting but like I said, my numbers are imperfect and old.

I actually think the Boo Arc is one of the best in presenting it's power-scale. The only problem is fusions, the rest is very clear.

All this talk made me inspired to finally redo my numbers. I'll try to start this weekend. It seems I need to reduce the numbers right from the get go, to have more range in the later parts, where I need the flexibility.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:34 pm

LightBing wrote:It's common for weaker opponents to be used to hype people. Just in this tournament it happens a few times and much more in all of Dragon Ball. Yamcha beats a random scrub and get's a "wow you have been training hard", does this mean that random scrub is stronger than the previous iteration of Yamcha?

These weak opponents can be used as measuring sticks based on how easily they are defeated. The intention of the narrative is to hype in phases, first Chapa is talked up as a strong opponent, Goku defeats him with ease and says he can't wait for real opponents, Jackie Chun upon hearing this gets worried.

Phase 2 is introducing the power-scale in regards to the previous strongest foe Tao Pai Pai, based on everyone's reaction he's still very relevant. We have Goku win against Pamput easily and Tenshinhan starts believing Goku isn't lying, becoming unsettled. Pamput isn't even near Tao Pai Pai and he doesn't need to be, again inference is given to how easily Goku defeated him.

Phase 3 is discovering Goku has two levels and hasn't been fighting seriously yet, therefore pushing him further above everybody else. That line against Kuririn in my opinion is confirmation Kuririn is the first opponent to be above Tao Pai Pai, demonstrating cleanly the progression.

Anyway that's it for me regarding this bit, if we don't agreed it's fine. The argument is getting circular, we are starting to repeat ourselves.

Very quickly it would look like this: 356 > 320 > 300 > 270 > 231(Speed advantage and endurance advantage) > 231
It needs adjusting but like I said, my numbers are imperfect and old.

I actually think the Boo Arc is one of the best in presenting it's power-scale. The only problem is fusions, the rest is very clear.

All this talk made me inspired to finally redo my numbers. I'll try to start this weekend. It seems I need to reduce the numbers right from the get go, to have more range in the later parts, where I need the flexibility.


Yeah, he should focus on the Daimao-23rd power scaling. But something i'd like to point something out: Chappa was different from the random scrub from the 21st. He actually had a build up as someone who won a Budokai and should be a sticky match for Goku, like Jackie pointed. I see Goku vs Chappa as the Tao vs Chaotsu of the 22nd. While the one shoting is pretty impressive, nobody cares due to the lack of reputation.

It's too tight. Goku is not implied to be off balance after he removes his weights, so his strength over Tenshinhan should be as massive as his speed. Kami also totally refused to fight Piccolo even when he was fucked up of the fight, implying something massive. I think BoZ Goku and Piccolo would be better here:
Tenshinhan/Weighted Goku: 225
Unweighted Goku: 300
Goku (Tenshinhan's mind): 360~400
Shen: 450
Kami: 500
Worned out Piccolo: 600
Goku/Piccolo: 800~900
I still think they are a bit tight, but can work rather ok.

Buu Arc is pretty tricky with the power scaling. Kaioshin is indeed not the best situtation, and there's the whole Gohan vs Dabura thing as well.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Postby LowRyder2005 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:02 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:


- Inconsistent, since Freeza was fully expecting to fight Super Saiyan Goku without going golden. Unless SSB >> 50x SSG, I cant see this happening.
- I was not sure if I could beat him even in blue means Toppo is close to Blue Goku, not KK x2 blue goku. Their fight had Goku in advantage.
- And Basil vs Napapa and Super Saiyan Caulifa vs Napapa were similar fights, probably basil did better. Unless SS caulifa is weaker than namek goku, this isn't happening. Similarly, Unamped Basil vs Buu was better fight than Dabura, Shin and Gohan vs Buu all combined, so Basil >= Dabura, Shin and SS Gohan.



- This is a hasty conclusion, as Freeza never states he had no intention of jumping to his Golden form if Goku turned Super Saiyan. The most we could assume is that he used his "final form" because Goku and Vegeta were above his first. Besides, Final Form Freeza fights Goku prolongedly, quite viciously and nothing references the fact Freeza's saving any strength like he did on Namek. There's no apparent reason to think they wrote the scene without intepreting base Goku's and fourth form Freeza's strength as extremely close.

- This actually depends on how you interpret the phrase, which is ambiguous by itself. It's either "I wasn't sure I could beat him, so I used Kaio-Ken", or "I wasn't sure I could beat him in Blue" with "Blue" including every version of the form (Blue + KK). There's room to put Toppo anywhere from above SSB to above SSB + KK. Regardless of what Goku meant, remember that Toppo himself says they are evenly match and that he wasn't sure he could beat Goku after he sees Goku flaring up his fully powered Blue + KK. If he was evenly matched with SSB Goku, it means sensing Goku's power with Kaioken would've warranted a "I couldn't have beaten him". In short, it does look very likely that the fully powered Toppo is supposed to be equal to SSB + KK Goku, and not just a little above Goku with SSB.

- #18, who trained at most some hours or days with Krillin, has near-unambiguous feats that would make her physical strength vastly higher than the current base Goku (which wouldn't make that much sense unless her battle power was in turn considerably higher). This Goku, in turn, can't k.o. Basil. So, unless you think #18 somehow surpassed Dabra in such a short amount of time and even though you are seemingly rejecting the normally accepted notion of Good Buu being around 40% or less of Fat Buu, this already means Basil can't be above Dabra.
Buu being much above Basil and base Goku is pretty much made a certainty through the fact that Goku can't overpower one on one neither Basil nor Lavenda, nor any of the U9 fighters (who are all weaker than the Trio, possibly even dramatically). A powered-up Basil - who could be anywhere from 2, 5 or 10 times stronger, according to how much you think such a "we don't know what might happen to your body" power-up was worth it -, on the other hand still can't inflict any damage, doesn't worry Buu in the slightest and is still stated to be "much weaker" than Buu himself.


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