Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:36 am

I do like how Dessasina's calculations for FPSS works nicely with the whole less energy consumed leading to more power, but otherwise I too find it a weird calculation, as it doesn't show, why SS 3 Goku runs out of energy so fast compared to SS and SS 2.
I'd think it'd make more sense to have it be for every increase in power, the increase in stamina must be the same, otherwise the power can't be sustained for as long.

I too have tried working out a more stats based power level guide and the way it'd work you'd have race specific factors, that for example had one race naturally superior in one field compared to another(fx Butta being the fastest of the Ginyu Force, other than Ginyu, because of the mutation in his race, where the others are more balanced). There'd also be factors due to changes in the body, most prominently exemplified with the bulky forms both in Super Saiyans and other races and the Ozaru form as well.
The main stats would be Strength, Speed and Stamina, but I'd probably need a bit more.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:46 am

dbgtFO wrote:I do like how Dessasina's calculations for FPSS works nicely with the whole less energy consumed leading to more power, but otherwise I too find it a weird calculation, as it doesn't show, why SS 3 Goku runs out of energy so fast compared to SS and SS 2.
I'd think it'd make more sense to have it be for every increase in power, the increase in stamina must be the same, otherwise the power can't be sustained for as long.

I too have tried working out a more stats based power level guide and the way it'd work you'd have race specific factors, that for example had one race naturally superior in one field compared to another(fx Butta being the fastest of the Ginyu Force, other than Ginyu, because of the mutation in his race, where the others are more balanced). There'd also be factors due to changes in the body, most prominently exemplified with the bulky forms both in Super Saiyans and other races and the Ozaru form as well.
The main stats would be Strength, Speed and Stamina, but I'd probably need a bit more.


Durability

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby Desassina » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:21 am

dbgtFO wrote:I do like how Dessasina's calculations for FPSS works nicely with the whole less energy consumed leading to more power, but otherwise I too find it a weird calculation, as it doesn't show, why SS 3 Goku runs out of energy so fast compared to SS and SS 2.
I'd think it'd make more sense to have it be for every increase in power, the increase in stamina must be the same, otherwise the power can't be sustained for as long.


Those were only self contained multipliers for transformations, because they don't explain the flow of battle. We would need another model to make the characters' stats (which are multiplied by mine) decrease with time. There could be a rate for consumption, another for damage taken and speed lost (through paralisys arts, for example).

Energy just means that Goku's consumption of 16 as a SSJ3 limits the power that he has, when he could master SSJ2 instead to get the same result. Lower the consumption of SSJ2 to 1, and for the strength and agility that he posesses, he gets the same power. However, SSJ3 Goku would have more strength and agility altogether, hence why the drawbacks only limit his power, but not what a greater form implies.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:45 am

I understand now very well, but what do you mean by this last part?
However, SSJ3 Goku would have more strength and agility altogether, hence why the drawbacks only limit his power, but not what a greater form implies.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby Desassina » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:55 am

I mean this:

Full Power SSJ2 - Power: 400 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 1
SSJ3 - Power: 400 | Strength: 80 | Agility: 80 | Energy: 16


Despite the same power between Full Power (mastered) SSJ2 and (unmastered) SSJ3, Goku still has more strength and agility. According to these numbers, anyway.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:58 am

So here's what my Ultimate Battle Powers listTM would look like, if I stuck to the official multipliers!
Speaking of multipliers best to get done with them first:

Multipliers

Dragon Ball
Pilaf Arc - 23rd TB Arc

Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan Arc - Freeza Arc

Cell Arc - Buu Arc

Dragon Ball GT -BoG, RoF and DBS ignored

Dragon Ball Super
BoG Arc - Ro[F] Arc
Last edited by dbgtFO on Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:54 pm

Babidi weaker than farmer ? Interesting putting all them at 4's but shouldn't you put him at 400 something?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:31 pm

apex_pretador wrote:Babidi weaker than farmer ? Interesting putting all them at 4's but shouldn't you put him at 400 something?

I edited it, so now he's at 400, when using magic.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:01 pm

I like your list dbgtFO (especially how high SSJ4 Goku is :P) with only a couple of nitpicks.

- Shouldn't Freeza be wrecking Goku if he's still got a PL of a million higher than him? Their fight seems pretty even until Freeza's powers up to half his power.
- I don't think you need to nerf Piccolo much or at all for the boys to be above him. I think you can safely keep him at your Cell Games PL and simply use Toriyama's comment about him training as training for his power to remain the same. Not for the sake of making big gains like the Saiyan's do.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:15 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I like your list dbgtFO

I'm glad to read that. I did think I managed to make most of it fit nicely together.
What's the deal with SS4 Goku though? The fact he's far from as strong as the God tiers in Super?
- Shouldn't Freeza be wrecking Goku if he's still got a PL of a million higher than him? Their fight seems pretty even until Freeza's powers up to half his power.
Well both of them considered it a warm-up until Freeza started to use no hands and even then Freeza seemed to be generally superior only getting dust on himself, because of his lack of ki sensing.
- I don't think you need to nerf Piccolo much or at all for the boys to be above him. I think you can safely keep him at your Cell Games PL and simply use Toriyama's comment about him training as training for his power to remain the same. Not for the sake of making big gains like the Saiyan's do.

True, that was a holdover from my old one, I've changed it, so he now just has the same PL, like at the Cell Games.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:51 pm

dbgtFO wrote:I'm glad to read that. I did think I managed to make most of it fit nicely together.
What's the deal with SS4 Goku though? The fact he's far from as strong as the God tiers in Super?


Shit, I read it wrong the last time lol. I actually think SS4 Goku is way too low, I'd at least, put him above Super Saiyan God Goku along with SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't take Goku's comment regarding fusion seriously, especially in the BoG film where it's pretty obvious Goku's got a major pride problem clouding his judgement. I don't think Beerus is high then say 15-20 times stronger than Super Vegetto was.

dbgtFO wrote:Well both of them considered it a warm-up until Freeza started to use no hands and even then Freeza seemed to be generally superior only getting dust on himself, because of his lack of ki sensing.


Still, a million PL difference seems a bit too high. I'd sooner make it a 100 to 300 thousand difference instead. It's enough for Freeza to have an edge without having a good enough gap to completely smash Goku.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby Lord Beerus » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:52 pm

dbgtFO wrote:So here's what my Ultimate Battle Powers listTM would look like, if I stuck to the official multipliers!
Speaking of multipliers best to get done with them first:

Multipliers

Dragon Ball
Pilaf Arc - 23rd TB Arc

Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan Arc - Freeza Arc

Cell Arc - Buu Arc

Dragon Ball GT -BoG, RoF and DBS ignored

Dragon Ball Super
BoG Arc - Ro[F] Arc

This may be the best battle power list I've ever come across. This is actually flawless. I think may actually sig this. Damn good work, dbgtFO. :thumbup:
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby Draconic » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:35 pm

I'd put SSJ4 Goku beyond limits at 50GP, but everything is... great. Nice work!
English is not my first language !

My breakdown of the new and old transformations. Hope to update it soon with many others!

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:01 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Shit, I read it wrong the last time lol. I actually think SS4 Goku is way too low, I'd at least, put him above Super Saiyan God Goku along with SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't take Goku's comment regarding fusion seriously, especially in the BoG film where it's pretty obvious Goku's got a major pride problem clouding his judgement. I don't think Beerus is high then say 15-20 times stronger than Super Vegetto was.

Valid points, but I just went along with the idea that Super God Tiers are way above the GT Top tiers.
Still, a million PL difference seems a bit too high. I'd sooner make it a 100 to 300 thousand difference instead. It's enough for Freeza to have an edge without having a good enough gap to completely smash Goku.

True the gap seems pretty big, when compared to previous examples. I just use a cop-out here and say, that since Freeza did think he'd handle Goku with no hands and managed quite well till Goku caught his tail, he gets the benefit of the doubt.
Lord Beerus wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:snip

This may be be best battle power list I've ever come across. This is actually flawless. I think may actually sig this. Damn good work, dbgtFO. :thumbup:

Draconic wrote:I'd put SSJ4 Goku beyond limits at 50GP, but everything is... great. Nice work!

Thank you very much! Don't know about flawless, but I do think it's pretty good all things considered ^-^
And I can't claim to have watched GT recently, so I had no idea where to put beyond limits SS4 Goku, other than above 1-Star Dragon's base form.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:24 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Shit, I read it wrong the last time lol. I actually think SS4 Goku is way too low, I'd at least, put him above Super Saiyan God Goku along with SSJ3 Vegetto. I don't take Goku's comment regarding fusion seriously, especially in the BoG film where it's pretty obvious Goku's got a major pride problem clouding his judgement. I don't think Beerus is high then say 15-20 times stronger than Super Vegetto was.

Valid points, but I just went along with the idea that Super God Tiers are way above the GT Top tiers.


I've come up with a rough idea as to where the GT Goku stands given your PLs and how much power you need to register on the God scale. Goku's base form, in the Baby Saga at least, is about on par with Kid Boo & SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Boo, giving him a base of 40 billion.

SSJ4 has no official multiplier but a lot of people say its 10 times stronger than 3 (maybe because of the times 10s associated with it?) so basically a 4000 times base multiplier. There's also a potential unlock that's given upon obtaining the form but we don't know how big that is so for the sake of not dragging too much hyperbole into this, let's just ignore that and stick to hard numbers.

So, with a base of 40 billion x 4000 this gives Super Saiyan 4 Goku a power of roughly 160 trillion without stuff like getting power from the others or the implied boosts he receives in later battles. Vegeta's hard to nail down, the Perfect Files say Gohan trained and Vegeta is shown being superior to him in battle at least with SSJ2 so its pretty much a crap shoot where the hell he stands anytime in GT.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby dbgtFO » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:43 pm

Oh shit, that reminds me, that I don't even use the multipliers I wrote down for Golden Ozaru(4,000x) and SS 4(20,000x) up above, but instead just went with Golden Ozaru being 10x SS 3 and SS 4 being 5x on top of that, plus SS 4 Gogeta is calculated wrongly(should be 300GP instead of 750 GP). All the more reason to have Goku stay at his beyond limits power and then basing the fusion on that, I guess.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:47 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Oh shit, that reminds me, that I don't even use the multipliers I wrote down for Golden Ozaru(4,000x) and SS 4(20,000x) up above, but instead just went with Golden Ozaru being 10x SS 3 and SS 4 being 5x on top of that, plus SS 4 Gogeta is calculated wrongly(should be 300GP instead of 750 GP). All the more reason to have Goku stay at his beyond limits power and then basing the fusion on that, I guess.


Interesting that you're making Golden Oozaru x4000, I always pegged it at x500 because of Oozaru's x10 getting SSJs x50 added to it with 4 a ten times multiplier of that.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby DanielSSJ » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:11 am

dbgtFO wrote:So here's what my Ultimate Battle Powers listTM would look like, if I stuck to the official multipliers!
Speaking of multipliers best to get done with them first:

Multipliers

Dragon Ball
Pilaf Arc - 23rd TB Arc

Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan Arc - Freeza Arc

Cell Arc - Buu Arc

Dragon Ball GT -BoG, RoF and DBS ignored

Dragon Ball Super
BoG Arc - Ro[F] Arc

- The only real problem I have with your list is making 100% Freeza above SS Goku. Not only is it not supported by anything from the series, but it kind of detracts from Goku's transformation and the resulting fight as a whole. The payoff of the fight and the arc as a whole was to show that Goku had finally surpassed Freeza. To say that Goku only won because Freeza wasn't at his best is a serious disservice to the fight.
- Other than that, the only complaints that I have are minor stuff like Kibito being significantly weaker than base Gohan or pre-RoSaT Gotenks being above Majin Vegeta, but those are controversial topics, and I can understand if you choose to ignore the guidebooks' statements about them.
- As far as how absorbing South Kaioshin somehow increases Boo's strength 10x over, I usually write that off as Boo-on-Kaioshin absorption being screwy and functioning more like a type of fusion. This also explains how absorbing Dai Kaioshin somehow subtracts from Boo's strength. I'm not necessarily trying to convert you, but it is something to consider.

ekrolo2 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Oh shit, that reminds me, that I don't even use the multipliers I wrote down for Golden Ozaru(4,000x) and SS 4(20,000x) up above, but instead just went with Golden Ozaru being 10x SS 3 and SS 4 being 5x on top of that, plus SS 4 Gogeta is calculated wrongly(should be 300GP instead of 750 GP). All the more reason to have Goku stay at his beyond limits power and then basing the fusion on that, I guess.


Interesting that you're making Golden Oozaru x4000, I always pegged it at x500 because of Oozaru's x10 getting SSJs x50 added to it with 4 a ten times multiplier of that.

My multiplier for Super Oozaru is 10x the highest Super Saiyan form they have access to. For Goku, who can go SS3, it's a 4,000x boost. For Vegeta, who maxes out at SS2, it's a 1,000x boost. Super Saiyan 4 is 10,000x base, based on how SS4 Goku is more-or-less equal to Baby in his Super Oozaru form.
Last edited by DanielSSJ on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby apex_pretador » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:51 am

DanielSSJ wrote:- The only real problem I have with your list is making 100% Freeza above SS Goku. Not only is it not supported by anything from the series, but it kind of detracts from Goku's transformation and the resulting fight as a whole. Thematically, the purpose of the fight was to show that Goku had surpassed Freeza, not that he only beat him because Freeza was tired.


Goku was the better fighter

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:52 am

apex_pretador wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:- The only real problem I have with your list is making 100% Freeza above SS Goku. Not only is it not supported by anything from the series, but it kind of detracts from Goku's transformation and the resulting fight as a whole. Thematically, the purpose of the fight was to show that Goku had surpassed Freeza, not that he only beat him because Freeza was tired.


Goku was the better fighter


That's irrelevant in Dragon Ball. Yamcha's a better fighter than Kid Boo in terms of skill and technique and he'd still die against him. It's all about power in the Z era.
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