MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[Gaffer Tape]

But for now, Minus is basically a few still images of a story we are teased, but never see. And that's terrible.

Since we've debated the subject in the past, I admit I was thinking of you specifically as I wrote this video.

Obviously, I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I can't really give it a pass for having the potential to be good, but I get what you're saying. There are definitely some points I would have a hard time accepting, such as the ones I feel jerk around Goku's character. As I said in the video, they'd have to be "damned good" stories to get me to overlook some of that.

As for the coincidence of all but four Saiyans being on the planet at the time in the Bardock Special, well, I can't take credit for this, but it amazes me I never thought of it myself. It's just something I saw someone else say recently. It isn't just that all four Saiyans were on Planet Vegeta at the time. We see Freeza send out his men to kill Saiyans on other planets. That's how Bardock's team was killed. There's no reason to assume they just went after that group specifically and literally no one else. I mean, it's possible, and we have no explicit confirmation either way, but I can't understand why that would be the case. In any case, I'd take it over Freeza's, "Well, it will take more than a month? Eh. I'm lazy. We'll do it in a month." The Bardock Special makes it feel a lot more that that Saiyans who survived did so because Freeza chose them to survive (which is what Dodoria tells Vegeta). Minus gives off the vibe that the Saiyans who survived did so because Freeza wasn't being very thorough, or, in Vegeta's and Raditz's case, basically told Freeza to fuck off.

[Mewzard]

Fair enough, I was certainly more passionate on the subject at the time. A little time away to reflect on it let me where said passions fell. I definitely feel like I've grown as a person since then at the very least.

Yeah, not every complaint would have been fixed by simply being a good story, but I do like the idea of Goku assuming the worst of parents who did care, like was mentioned in the video. If it were more planned, a moment of Goku meeting his parents in the afterlife (ala his time there pre-Buu Saga) and coming to this realization could have been an interesting character moment, to reflect on some of the preconceived notions he's held about friend and foe alike in the past. Well...for as long as a guy like Goku can reflect on such things. But yeah, would have been a waste if nothing was ever done with it. That would be like if the story of Oedipus never had him learning the truth in the end, making the whole subplot feel like some creepy random scene.

As for sending out other teams...you might be right, but we'd have to be relying on some level of assumption there. I'd have taken one line of dialogue or even one shot of multiple teams going out...but Freeza sent Dodoria of all people to this one supposedly low level team? It made it seem like a one-off event.

Honestly, it seems like Freeza even destroying Vegeta was a last minute decision in the special, unless I'm misremembering some dialogue to the contrary. Like, he was contemplating it at best before the whole Bardock thing pushed him over the edge. Bardock was growing too fast? Take him out before it gets dangerous. Oh, he's still alive and attacking my ship? Let's not give the rest of the planet that same chance. I could be wrong of course; it has been some time since I last saw the Bardock Special. That's just the vibe I got from what all I remembered and what was discussed in the videos.

I'm glad if nothing else that some of my old arguments at least gave you some fun points to work with in the video. I really enjoyed it.

[JulieYBM]

I'm finally watching the Bardock TV Special video. I have to say, I hate the phrase "shrinking the universe". That's just paying too much credence to the grand narrative or expanded universe non-sense and ignoring the greater creative expression sought by the creator behind a work.

I do like that Bardock winds up being completely useless, though. For all his passion--a passion that burns so ferociously that he can swipe through a horde of soldiers like a hot knife through butter--he is still powerless before those who stand above him. A beast that bares its fangs at the moon still no hope of grasping it.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm finally watching the Bardock TV Special video. I have to say, I hate the phrase "shrinking the universe". That's just paying too much credence to the grand narrative or expanded universe non-sense and ignoring the greater creative expression sought by the creator behind a work.

Well, I have to say I hate the concept of "shrinking the universe." However, I do wish you'd elaborate on the bolded section. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at at all.

[JulieYBM]

I'm finally watching the Bardock TV Special video. I have to say, I hate the phrase "shrinking the universe". That's just paying too much credence to the grand narrative or expanded universe non-sense and ignoring the greater creative expression sought by the creator behind a work.

Well, I have to say I hate the concept of "shrinking the universe." However, I do wish you'd elaborate on the bolded section. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at at all.

The 'grand narrative', as in the overruling plot, deeper meaning or universal application. The problem I have with the highlighting of the concept of 'shrinking' the universe is that it implies that there is some sort of rule to what is or should be done, rather than the author's self-expression. By trying to make the structure and techniques of a novel, comic, television or film fall within certain parameters we inadvertently step away from human feeling (specifically, those of the creator) and step closer to the sort of masturbating-to-numbers you see from battle power fans. Yes, this is what is done...but to what end were these actions taken?

If the characters are mere pieces of the creator's mind, this makes their actions not actual happenings, but expressions of the creator's beliefs. Acknowledging that reality does indeed highlight the work's fictional nature, but by highlighting the fictional nature of the work we are getting closer to the real truth that the work represents (the feelings of the author). I'm not a big fan of making vast universes for the sake of having vast universes, because while they may seem 'realistic', that is on a very surface-level scale. Gokuu's dad tries to stop the destruction of the Saiyans and is even the sole Saiyan to confront Freeza over this? It's not probable in a setting of reality, but it's realistic as an expression of the author. If we're not consuming and art to understand and connect with the author (and thus perhaps learning something new about ourselves) what is the point of consuming and creating art?

Mind you, there is something of a deeper meaning to the Bardock TV Special in how it highlights the fruitlessness (vegetablelessness?) of Bardock's actions, but even that isn't held up as anything more than a common tool for expressing the creators' wills. Rather than having characters plays subservient to the grand narrative (deeper meaning), the grand narrative is used to highlight the characters. While Episode of Bardock certainly has its problems, a lack of grand narrative is not one of them. Ooishi Naho clearly has an idea of who Bardock is. Otaku in general have developed their perception and crafting of characters over the past thirty years to the point that they could conceivable exist in any context. After all, just look at how Vegeta known for his cooking! Or how Yotsuba to! is whatever genre it feels like being for each individual chapter. Bardock is a character defined less by the grand narrative of his establishing work and more by the perception and further fictionalization of his character as his fans have consumed him and other media across the years. Episode of Bardock's problem, as a result, is that whatever ideas Oonishi had regarding Bardock were not properly allowed to be developed within a looser creative (editorial influence) and narrative (structure and length) form.

As a creator myself, I don't think it's necessarily fair (rather, 'worthy') of criticizing Episode of Bardock. Not only is it the product of editorial and product influence, it is merely a doodle on a napkin. It's a collection of ideas hastily doodled on a napkin at McDonald's that shouldn't have been released in its current form ("worth of being criticized") and was only done as a result of having to push out a commercial ("fair to be criticized").

I'm a terrible writer, so the shit I'm trying to get at probably isn't going to make much sense outside of my own internal context, but I just wanted to say it.

[Gaffer Tape]

The Battle Powers Episode - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Freeza Arc Part 9!

I knew I'd have to some day. So here are battle powers but obviously with a Dragon Ball Dissection-esque bent, so it's primarily focused on their role in the story and how they help or hinder the storytelling.

Due to some requests, I've tried out this new titling scheme, putting an episode-specific title at the front. Due to this being a somewhat non-traditional episode, I figured it was a good place to test it. What do you think? Yay or nay?

Also, Jacob, I completely intend to address your above post. The ideas really fascinate me. I just haven't had the time to really tackle it in-depth yet.

[dbzfan7]

Ah the day has finally come and it was enjoyable. All the subtle regret, delicious . But nah I only kid, it was an interesting watch. I am a battle power enthusiast but for different reasons. Rather than just who has the bigger number or whatever, it's more on consistency. That's what matters more to me. Doctor basically in his well written post explains what I think most people are thinking about, rather than just numbers.

I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.

Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.

Though interpretation and views of said events can cause quite the ruckus, as seen in the Super Manga thread.

[Mewzard]

As a kid watching Toonami in the late 90s onward, I was one of those who delved into power levels hardcore. I remember going to sites like Planet Namek and the Unrivaled Dragon Ball website looking up such details with wonders, and going onto GameFAQs to argue who was stronger among Super Buu and Kid Buu, was Gohan SSJ1 or SSJ2 when fighting Dabura, etc.

As time went on, however, I mostly matured in that regard. I read the whole manga, I started watching Kai for my dubbed experience and Z for my subbed experience, and I started focusing more on character and story.

The old me would have looked at Super and probably put my foot down at such inconsistencies...but now, I look at the situation with joy that power levels aren't some end all be all, and that old characters who were fantastic can finally be plot relevant once again and do more to help the group than just sit in the background and commentate like it were a Wrestling match.

Super has other issues of course, but at this point, I just want these characters I love to be able to shine every now and again.

When Dragon Ball does character right, it can be an amazing experience to go through. I just wish more people appreciated that over power levels.

[ShadowDude112]

Gaffer, I love you. I do, but stop teasing us on what you think of Resurrection 'F'. Not because it's negative, but because it's gonna take you so long to get to it. You give us these teases, but who knows how long it's gonna take for you to get to RF? Maybe this is just me going "Okay, you brought it up, what do you think." and then being given no payoff. This is sounding overly negative. My bad. Just kinda like, know I have to wait so long for the dissection of 'F', that I'm confused as to why you're teasing it now.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Perfect how you open the topic with a nod to Resurrection F, the storyline that even those entirely neutral to strength discussions can agree was a farce.

I don't have much to dispute! Well said!

They make a great, at times even cynical contrast in the Saiyan arc and mostly carry that through the Freeza story, then peter out once the numbers get so high that there is no way to visually represent them and contort the rest of the story in their immediate demands for rapidly-rising yet entirely invisible stockpiles of unlimited health that rarely tell us what the characters are actually learning.

But you hit the iron hot in rightly assessing that we have no consistent guidelines for how differing powers are supposed to react to each other beyond a higher stated power beating a lesser one. And indeed, that is what usually happens. But by the time that becomes the norm these strengths are so incomprehensibly huge and so firmly anecdotal that anything more than that is indiscernible; how can we be sure that Vegeta or Trunks couldn't give Perfect Cell a better show after one day in the chamber if the character's didn't insist so, or that Krillin cannot benchmark himself against various Super Saiyan transformations without being blown to dust in an instant? So much fan furor seems to be based in fans turning anecdote into hard data then feeling cheated when the story, in effect, tells them that is what they are doing. Not that I don't find a little fun in trying to quantify and compare characters, but once that pits you against another person or robs you of your good time for sheer annoyance, it stops being fun.

[FoolsGil]

I disagree with the belief that PLs equated every fight into a game of who would win and who won't. Take Power Levels mentions out in all of Z series still plays out the same. Unlike One Piece where just about everyone gets a counterpart to fight, Dragonball gets around 5 or 6 villains, and the underlings of them get taken out by the second strongest. The series' refusal to give anyone not Saiyan or Piccolo a bone, you can easily tell who would trounce who in a fight when there's a new villain and 2/3 of the cast is established as worthless.

[RandomGuy96]

Gaffer, I noticed one grievous error in this video:
[spoiler]Final Fantasy is not an RPG series. [/spoiler]
Also your point about how "if we hadn't had numbers setting such rigid standards in the first place, these kinds of things [teamwork or strategy overcoming a slight power gap] would be easier to swallow" comes off as odd to me, similar to the constant statements by fans of the pre-Raditz material that battle powers made everything about strength, or the later statements in this video that "the fighting became more about power-ups and transformations and various ways to pull out more power". Most of the examples of weaker characters defeating stronger characters? Come after the introduction of battle powers. In the "pre battle power" days, the power gaps were actually even larger, more decisive, and more insurmountable despite the lack of specific numbers assigned to them. As Roshi himself explicitly tells us in the second arc, whoever has more power wins 99% of the time. At least the last few arcs subverted that occasionally rather than playing it completely straight like the vast majority of the "pre battle power" fights.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

In the "pre battle power" days, the power gaps were actually even larger, more decisive, and more insurmountable despite the lack of specific numbers assigned to them. As Roshi himself explicitly tells us in the second arc, whoever has more power wins 99% of the time. At least the last few arcs subverted that occasionally rather than playing it completely straight like the vast majority of the "pre battle power" fights.

They very well could be, its just that barring Goku's rematch with Tao I don't think they're portrayed that way, at least not as starkly as strength gaps in the Z-era usually are. Yamcha may lose every Budokai quarter finals he makes, but he can typically hit his opponent. But then there is tone and expectation too- Goku's demolishing Murasaki is mean to be funny, his demolishing Jeice and Burter less so.

You're right on the rest of it though. It was never the numbers themselves, but the philosophy of strengthening characters- the presence of numbers just laid that excess bare and gave interested fans an in-universe license to bring order to Toriyama's whims.

[Gaffer Tape]

Freeza Tennis - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Freeza Arc Part 10!

Freeza goes through a series of transformations that don't matter. Piccolo shows up to steal the spotlight for one chapter and then fade into the background. Truly this is a clash of titans!

[The gr]

Ugh freeza holding back was annoying and tedious and made him look like a jackass,I wouldn't have mind if they removed his third form, this was my problem with vegeta vs maggetta In the anime, they tried to make it a tense match but they fail because vegeta was massively holding back making him a moron for almost losing

That's what I try to tell everyone, even if piccolo was worthless in u6,he was always worthless,the only time he was revelant was in the saiyan saga

[Lord Beerus]

Ugh freeza holding back was annoying and tedious and made him look like a jackass,I wouldn't have mind if they removed his third form, this was my problem with vegeta vs maggetta In the anime, they tried to make it a tense match but they fail because vegeta was massively holding back making him a moron for almost losing

That's what I try to tell everyone, even if piccolo was worthless in u6,he was always worthless,the only time he was revelant was in the saiyan saga

Vegeta wasn't holding back. Megetta was basically indestructible and Vegeta couldn't do any damage to him and only won through pure luck.

[The gr]

Ugh freeza holding back was annoying and tedious and made him look like a jackass,I wouldn't have mind if they removed his third form, this was my problem with vegeta vs maggetta In the anime, they tried to make it a tense match but they fail because vegeta was massively holding back making him a moron for almost losing

That's what I try to tell everyone, even if piccolo was worthless in u6,he was always worthless,the only time he was revelant was in the saiyan saga

Vegeta wasn't holding back. Megetta was basically indestructible and Vegeta couldn't do any damage to him and only won through pure luck.

Hmm why he didn't use ssb, AKA his full power or ss2 by that matters,I mean everyone have a limit to their power because I really don't see maggetta tanking a full hit from a ssb vegeta or Goku

[Lord Beerus]

Ugh freeza holding back was annoying and tedious and made him look like a jackass,I wouldn't have mind if they removed his third form, this was my problem with vegeta vs maggetta In the anime, they tried to make it a tense match but they fail because vegeta was massively holding back making him a moron for almost losing

That's what I try to tell everyone, even if piccolo was worthless in u6,he was always worthless,the only time he was revelant was in the saiyan saga

Vegeta wasn't holding back. Megetta was basically indestructible and Vegeta couldn't do any damage to him and only won through pure luck.

Hmm why he didn't use ssb, AKA his full power or ss2 by that matters

Because it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Megetta was alreadiy tanking everything Vegeta was throwing at him.

[The gr]

Vegeta wasn't holding back. Megetta was basically indestructible and Vegeta couldn't do any damage to him and only won through pure luck.

Hmm why he didn't use ssb, AKA his full power or ss2 by that matters

Because it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Megetta was alreadiy tanking everything Vegeta was throwing at him.

The gap between ss1 and ssb is freaking huge man,I would be ok with botamo since there's a in Universe reason for his invulnerability but for maggetta there's nothing in Universe explaining his crazy durability, which is a problem with DBZ and DBS, character hold back their power to much destroying tension

[Lord Beerus]

Hmm why he didn't use ssb, AKA his full power or ss2 by that matters

Because it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Megetta was alreadiy tanking everything Vegeta was throwing at him.

The gap between ss1 and ssb is freaking huge man,I would be ok with botamo since there's a in Universe reason for his invulnerability but for maggetta there's nothing in Universe explaining his crazy durability, which is a problem with DBZ and DBS, character hold back their power to much destroying tension

Megetta is a Metalman. He's obviously composed of metal material that makes him nigh-indestructible. Hence why Vegeta attacks did nothing to him. Much like Goku's scenario with Botamo. It's emphasized even more in the Super manga because Vegeta hurts himself when tried to punch him and he couldn't even lift him. It's not that hard to put 2 and 2 together and realize that Magetta has beyond extreme durability.