MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
MozillaVulpix
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:01 pm
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by MozillaVulpix » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:47 pm

It is kind of interesting that your newest episode was something that wouldn't be out of place in tumblr fangirl discourse. This whole "is this character assassination or not" debate. Heck, seems like that might lead to your next episode, too. I've gotten a bit disillusioned over those kinds of debates over the past few years, because I've often seen them end in giant conspiracy theories that the authors in questions have some kind of bias towards or against specific characters or are specifically trying to upset kinds of fans, and they honestly sound ridiculous when you look at the bigger picture but...I guess that's social media for you. Your video definitely felt like it got the points across without making it feel like you're only saying it because you're some kind of 'Yamcha fanboy'.

Anyway, good job making it through another DBDecember!
I could have gotten into anything...and yet I chose the story aimed at young Japanese boys about martial arts, and later about super-powerful aliens punching each other really hard.

https://www.youtube.com/c/MozillaVulpix

matt0044
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by matt0044 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:58 pm

In regards to the next video, I think there's something to be said about how it feels like the chapter reads like Toriyama fighting with himself to write himself out of the corner he just found himself it. Bulma's the one pointing out the obvious with everyone else trying to rationalize the plotline to come. How out of character it is sorta depends. Vegeta would go on a tirade if they dared attempt it and it wouldn't surprise me at this point in his character arc so Krillin's later words aren't too far-fetched.

Now in regards to Goku and Tenshinhan as well as Piccolo, that's a whole other ballpark. Personally, I hope you talk extensively about Goku's Saiyan side in addition to the English Dub's portrayal playing up his more noble qualities. I've always hoped you'd address that aspect of the dub even if that's not what your videos are on (as of yet).

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4125
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:12 am

Unless I missed it, I'm surprised you didn't mention this is the first time Goku sees Yamcha and Tenshinhan after the 23rd Budokai.

This whole thing reminds me of that one thread from a few years ago about future Trunks seeming like somebody's ridiculous fan-made character, the son of Vegeta and Bulma from the future who wields a sword and is super-shonen-serious with a tragic backstory. :lol:

By the way, are you going to cover the controversial subject of wherever Gohan was out of character or not at the Cell Games?

Happy New Year!
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
coola
I Live Here
Posts: 3360
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
Location: Poland

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by coola » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:48 am

Kid Buu wrote:Unless I missed it, I'm surprised you didn't mention this is the first time Goku sees Yamcha and Tenshinhan after the 23rd Budokai.

This whole thing reminds me of that one thread from a few years ago about future Trunks seeming like somebody's ridiculous fan-made character, the son of Vegeta and Bulma from the future who wields a sword and is super-shonen-serious with a tragic backstory. :lol:

By the way, are you going to cover the controversial subject of wherever Gohan was out of character or not at the Cell Games?

Happy New Year!
I remember that, i think it was about if Goku is Mary Sue, and someone said, that F.Trunks during his introduction fit description of MS better, super strong, son of characters you would last expected to have baby together. :)
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/17!)

Post by Noah » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:15 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Subtitles: As a fan of captions and subtitles even for things I watch in my own language, I'm definitely a fan of this idea. It just feels like it would be a massive undertaking, and I don't know if I have time right now! Hmm. Then again, I have no idea how the YouTube captioning system works.

Toriyama as a writer: Briefly, I think he works best in his element, which is a rather absurdist humor. I think the more complex he tries to craft a story, the more he's going to trip up. I certainly don't think he's a bad writer. I think he's fantastic. He just has specific limitations as to his strengths. And I think that's true for a lot of writers. But if I didn't think he was any good, I wouldn't be here, and I certainly wouldn't have spent six years analyzing the series on YouTube.

Movies: I don't know if I could make a list since several of them are so middling for me. I've made special mentions of movies I like particularly well, which I will continue to do. So far, I think I've made special mention of Princess, Adventure, and the first three Z films as examples of films I'm particularly fond of.
- Well, it's just an idea for the future, you know when you end covering the whole series and about the YouTube caps: they're actually decent and transcribe well your sayings on the videos, but for some reason some videos has this option enabled and others not.

- Oh I see, nice to know your thoughts about Toriyama, I don't think he's bad either, but as many writers suffered with that, I think that he lost his touch at some portions of his work.

- Talking about movies do you see yourself doing a 'dissection' about other series?
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
GamerSkull
Regular
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm
Location: United States

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by GamerSkull » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am

I've only recently started watching Dragon Ball Dissection and I must say, it's rather enjoyable to see your analysis of the series.
I made it to the most recent episode of the Dissection in a single day.

I felt quite pleased to finally hear someone else sort of vent on the whole Yamcha ordeal. Out of all the humans, he is my favorite and probably makes my top 5 characters in the overall series. I have such a soft spot for the character that his treatment has left a really bad taste in my mouth. It was cool to see you point to the things that start occuring in order to make it so that people would be willing to accept the new (out of nowhere) pairing that the author created

Now this is no attack on Toriyama, but it really pains me that he wasn't able to write a way to do the Vegeta x Bulma pairing without throwing Yamcha under the bus. I would have been fine with a good send-off for the character but this decision has only made Yamcha's status in the franchise even worse.

Well, even though he was only used to be a jobber... I still can enjoy the older depictions of Yamcha, even though it's a big blow to see where he has ended up.

I can't wait for the next video, looking forward to seeing how you feel about the many weird decisions made by characters throughout the remainder of the Cell arc. Keep up the good work! :)
"Roga Fu-Fu Ken!"

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by zDBZ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:27 am

I watched a few episodes of this series a few years back, but I went through the entire thing over Christmas. It's a very wide-ranging and intelligently-presented analysis of Dragon Ball. I've found a lot that's made me rethink parts of the series, a lot that presents things I've felt in a new way, and a lot that I don't agree with at all. Most of those latter points are just matters of opinion (well, all of them are; most, I don't have anything to say to other than "I disagree") but there were two points I saw raised I'd like to push back on a little:

- The final stage of the Goku/Freeza fight not having an appreciable, relatable sense of impact. I think, in the right context, there's something to be said for a battle transcending any human scale. Take one of Mark Waid's critiques about Man of Steel: he argued that Superman, by the very nature of the character, is designed to do the impossible. He wasn't designed for no-win scenarios like that film put him in, and he wasn't designed to be a troubled human that people could relate to. Waid's comment was something to the effect of "Superman's not supposed to be like us; we're supposed to want to be like Superman." You could make the same argument about Bugs Bunny; no one in real life is that quick-witted, that clever, that adept at getting out of trouble, but Bugs isn't supposed to reflect real life; he's a cathartic wish fulfillment of a character. And those are just two examples from recent pop culture; folklore and mythology is full of characters who, in ability and behavior, went well beyond any human, but served as characters to aspire to, to live vicariously through, or just to impress with a sense of awe, joy, or horror. Some of the value of that type of character seems to have been lost over the years, and I wish it could be reclaimed.

The Goku/Freeza fight isn't a perfect match to that kind of thing; I shouldn't think anyone would want to aspire to be like Goku the way they would Superman or even Bugs Bunny; but I think this is an appropriate setting for two deliberately larger-than-life figures engaging in a deliberately larger-than-life conflict. Freeza is a monstrously powerful tyrant whose name brings fear to even the gods of this universe, and Goku has transcended his limitations to achieve the legendary form of his race. The two of them going at it like a pair of gods, powering though as a planet dies around them, the battle only taking on more human dimensions when Freeza finally starts to tire out...that's all good stuff IMO, and I don't need to find it relatable in human terms to feel excited and wowed by it.

Now, the energy transfer thing? Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

- The diminished status of Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Oolong, etc. You gave the other side of this argument a fair nod when you brought up the Peanuts example, but that example is one of the reasons why I'm of the other mind about this. Peanuts was always an ensemble cast despite the "Good ol' Charlie Brown" tagline, and Shermy (and Violet, and Patty) were major roles in that ensemble in the beginning, when it was limited to just a handful of characters. Dragon Ball, from the start, had a singular protagonist. You referred to Yamcha and the others in one of your videos as main characters, but I think it'd be more accurate to call Yamcha, at least in the pre-Z material (I know you don't like that term in reference to the manga, but it makes for an easy shorthand) a major supporting character, and Tien and the others I named just as supporting characters. I'd say, in that comparison, Shermy was arguably more integral to Peanuts in its early days than these guys were to Dragon Ball at any point, and yet I don't bemoan his eventual retirement from that strip any more than I do the lessened roles for some of the supporting Dragon Ball cast - though that's largely because, in both cases, I feel superior characters took their place.

Oolong may have had the personality to fill at least some of Yajirobe's role in the Piccolo Arc, but given where the story had gone at that moment and the important point of Goku being separated from his friends, Oolong wasn't going to be able to be there. Yajirobe ended up having enough distinguishing characteristics to his personality to set him well apart from Oolong. By becoming a resident of Korin Tower, he was well-positioned to play a minor but notable role in future arcs as a courier, and his (limited) fighting abilities similarly gave him room to have a few moments on that front. Even by that point in the series, the scale and nature of the threats and conflicts didn't leave much room for Oolong to do anything, and I can understand the decision to ultimately leave him in the background than try to force him in. And I'm also not bothered by it - partly because Oolong isn't a character I'm particularly interested in, but also because the cast had expanded enough that other characters could play a similar role to what Oolong did in the early days, and still have something to contribute to the newer forces at play.

You brought up the process of giving old traits to new characters to forge a stronger result, and I'm frankly more sympathetic to an author working through that process than I am to the characters in the mix, or to audience members who may be attached to some of those characters. Especially when the author is writing as he goes along and has to deal with the avenues he's already pursued working on the fly. Krillin is, to my mind, an improvement on Yamcha in all the major areas they overlap on; as a rival and eventual friend to Goku, as a hopeless romantic, as an adept human martial artist forced to go up against otherworldly challenges after the Saiyan Arc; and his more wry, plucky nature and distinctive visual design were traits more specific to him that give him further standing in my eyes. The one thing he doesn't have over Yamcha is an endless bank of exposition, and once conflicts started to deal with aliens and demons, Yamcha's ability to serve that function was going to get diminished anyway. I also think saying that Yamcha cheating on Bulma being the equivalent to Goku suddenly becoming a math wiz is a bit of a stretch; you made a good argument for it not being particularly in-character, but I also don't think it's outright ridiculous either. If earlier references to Yamcha and Bulma fighting a lot can't be taken as foreshadowing, I think one could argue that they're a good reason why Toriyama might decide that he'd drained that well dry and that it was time to move on - and why not do that by having the less vital character in that pair go off with someone else? You could take issue with how gracefully the transition was handled, but I would argue that any issues there are outweighed by how well Bulma and Vegeta's relationship worked out in the long run.

I don't even object to Yamcha's exit coming in the form of a "well, I just can't keep up anymore" type situation. It's not a terribly exciting way for a character to end his tenure, but I don't see it as (intentionally) mean-spirited, and I think it does help to illustrate just how large the stakes have grown, that one of these superpowered Earthlings just doesn't feel up to the challenge any more. To give everyone a dignified, graceful exit would get a little repetitive IMO.

And in the case of characters like Chaotzu or Launch, where they were arguably poorly defined and limited in potential anyway, why lament that they faded away? It's a bit awkward and unfortunate in Chaotzu's case, but only because of the connection he's meant to have with Tien, and Tien's the one character in this bunch I'm referring to who I do regret (at least to an extent) fell by the wayside. Ironically enough, it's partially because of these dissection videos that I have those regrets, because it never occurred to me before I watched these how Tien fell in to the part of Goku's confidante/second-in-command during the last World Tournament Arc. Piccolo ended up taking on that role during the Cell and Buu Arcs (he was arguably the guy in charge for parts of both of them) and he did extremely well in that role, but Tien barely got to try it on. I think it's ridiculous that he, Piccolo, and Yamcha didn't learn the Kaioken even as other techniques were passed around the group, and Tien's brief moments against Cell and even Buu indicate, to me at least, that he had the potential to stay relevant longer than he did. That said, I think his exit from the group at the end of the Cell Arc was really well done, so...potato, potahto.

jcogginsa
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1204
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:12 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by jcogginsa » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:06 pm

Something I just thought of: When in the series did Bulma start being shown as a technological wiz? Was that present from the very first arc?

User avatar
DanielSSJ
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:13 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/17!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:16 pm

jcogginsa wrote:Something I just thought of: When in the series did Bulma start being shown as a technological wiz? Was that present from the very first arc?
Well, she was introduced as having built the Dragon Radar in the first chapter.
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:58 am

Is Goku a Hero? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 3!

I'm probably going more against the grain of the typical Kanzenshuu user's opinion than I ever have before, but here we are. Trunks warns Goku and the others that the world will become Skynet. They decide... to basically let it happen and see what shakes loose. Does this make sense? What are the reasons fans and Toriyama defend this? Here we go!!!
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

Gray Riders
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 8:46 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:23 am

When I re-read the manga over the last few years Roshi's line before the training, and later Goku's ability to take Raditz seriously and admit he's scared of Nappa and Vegeta instead of excited really stood out to me in contrast with later in the series.

I came with my own idea mid-video on how to handle the problem, before you made your suggestion. My idea was that they try to find the Dragon Balls, but when they activate the radar there are only three or four detected. Why?

Gero knows about the dragon balls, because of was part of the Red Ribbon Army--he's already gathered a few of them and the radar can't find them. He wants them to either help complete his artificial humans or give himself eternal life (since he's getting old and is worried he may not finish them)--if Pilaf can shield them from the radar I'm sure Gero can. The team can grab a few and make sure Gero can't get all seven, but they can't find the ones he has. Gero knows he can't take by force the ones they already have without his artificial humans completed, so he turns himself into 20 instead. They could ask Baba, but there are so many problems Baba could solve but didn't adding one more is, I feel, less of a problem than what we actually got. Of course I spent roughly fifteen seconds on this idea so there's probably a hole somewhere. :)
This would cause some problems for super, I suppose.

I like your own solution a bit more, though, since it explains 17 and 18's power increase. Both have the problem of "Baba could still find him and they can easily win his contest", though.

thaman91
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by thaman91 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:09 pm

Great episode. The pendulum analogy is spot on. People too often tend to swing to the extremes ("Goku is selfish and only cares about fighting a stronger foe!" or "Goku is a selfless superhero who acts only to save the innocent!") when in reality, the truth is more in the middle than either side would like to admit. This is something I've been thinking about for a while so I'm glad that you articulated it so well here.

One issue I have with your hypothetical alternative though (they find Gero to keep an eye on him, then he escapes), is the fact that Goku can teleport to people as long as he can sense their ki. So even if he were to escape, wouldn't it still be a non-issue since Goku could just find him and still prevent him from making anything?

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Scsigs » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:31 pm

Thank you for outlining how Goku's character shifts so much in Z, especially from one arc to another. I've been saying that for years now.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

matt0044
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:52 pm

Funny how I posted a thread regarding Goku’s character in the dub that ruffled feathers big time days before you put this out. Dang...

I feel these moments aren’t as scruntized simply because we got Dragon Ball Z first and didn’t have past adventures to fully see how OOC this is. It’s also a conflict of nostalgia and said piece of work containing aspects that don’t hold as much water was we thought.

Dragon Sponge
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:18 pm
Location: Germany

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Dragon Sponge » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:05 pm

Gray Riders wrote:When I re-read the manga over the last few years Roshi's line before the training, and later Goku's ability to take Raditz seriously and admit he's scared of Nappa and Vegeta instead of excited really stood out to me in contrast with later in the series.

I came with my own idea mid-video on how to handle the problem, before you made your suggestion. My idea was that they try to find the Dragon Balls, but when they activate the radar there are only three or four detected. Why?

Gero knows about the dragon balls, because of was part of the Red Ribbon Army--he's already gathered a few of them and the radar can't find them. He wants them to either help complete his artificial humans or give himself eternal life (since he's getting old and is worried he may not finish them)--if Pilaf can shield them from the radar I'm sure Gero can. The team can grab a few and make sure Gero can't get all seven, but they can't find the ones he has. Gero knows he can't take by force the ones they already have without his artificial humans completed, so he turns himself into 20 instead. They could ask Baba, but there are so many problems Baba could solve but didn't adding one more is, I feel, less of a problem than what we actually got. Of course I spent roughly fifteen seconds on this idea so there's probably a hole somewhere. :)
This would cause some problems for super, I suppose.

I like your own solution a bit more, though, since it explains 17 and 18's power increase. Both have the problem of "Baba could still find him and they can easily win his contest", though.
Your idea is similar to the one i have for my Dragon Ball Alternate Fanfiction i plan to do one day. In my version of an alternate Dragon Ball Story, Bulma & Krillin would, behind the backs of the others try to get the Dragon Balls, but one of them (the 4-Star Ball) is missing from the Radar which is already in the possesion of Dr. Gero who shielded it from the radar. And to get Baba out of the Picture, there could be several ways but the one i am planning curently is, to take her crystalball away and prevent her from getting a new one. Remeber how her crystalball was destroyed in the Saiyan Arc filler during the battle against Vegeta? What if, its very hard to get another one. What if these magical orbs are only sold in the afterlife and astronomical expensive. What if Baba spend many years to get the money for the one she had. I know she has plenty of money from her service but what if they became even more expensive in the present and Baba cannot earn a single Zeni without her Ball. But thats not enough because, Gero knowing that Baba could potentially ruin his plans, plants in secret bombs right under her palace that will explode if they locate a Crystall Ball in 5 kilometers around the palace. He leaves behind a deaththread in her mailbox which says that she will die if she ever starts fortunetelling again. Back to Bulma and Krillin who now decided to ask Baba where the missing Dragon Ball is get badly surprised by finding a terrefied Baba that has no crystalball and no intention to get another one anytime soon. Bulma is sure that Dr. Gero is behind all of this, but at this point they are not able to do much about it, so they stop their Dragon Ball hunt and take the one Dragon Ball they found to Goku, preventing Gero from obtaining all.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:26 pm

Mistare has opened the fanfiction floodgates :lol:
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Another wonderful video Gaffer Tape.

I've always resented the reasoning for the cast deciding to not go after Gero to prevent the Androids from being released because it just makes the main cast so unlikable for how needlessly foolhardy they act.

I made two key observations about this when I reread/rewatched this arc and it still applies:

- I can somewhat understand that Goku declines Bulma’s idea because it’s already established that Goku is a character that will go to great lengths for a battle that will push his limits, but what I don’t understand is the logic that they don’t attack him because he hasn’t created the Cyborgs yet and that it wouldn’t be nice to beat him up. That logic is fucking asinine. Dr Gero worked for the same organisation that planned to take over the world. An organisation that Goku knows about and fought against. Dr Gero is no saint to begin with. And Trunks flat out stated that Gero WILL unleash the Cyborgs onto the world in three years. Nothing has changed about that. So it just makes Goku's logic even more twisted and fucked up in presentation.

- I also love how Krillin talked about how great Bulma’s idea was but then decided it best for to the Cyborg fiasco happen so that they have common enemy to fight. I wouldn’t mind this point being brought up… if it wasn’t from a person that qualifies under the quota of “Die again, and you can’t be brought back to life” that Bulma specifically mentioned. Seriously, Krillin is not the person who should be making a point like this.

This is a decision that affects billions of lives, so if you're going to have this potential armageddon event transpire, you have to have the best fucking reason in the world for not stopping it before it can happen. And unfortunately, the reason they give is not only absurd, it's contradictory. Yeah, Toriyama totally wrote himself into a corner with that moment, and he didn't need to do it. And they way got himself out of that was so sloppily handled. And there were many other ways you write yourself out of that narrative hole without making the cast looking like idiots. Or better yet, as Gaffer pointed out, if you're going to have the cast act so cavilarily towards a threat, don't have stakes this high. And this is an issue that plagues Dragon Ball stories after this. But if you wanna have your cake and eat it too, provide some REALLY good lampshade hanging about this.

This is one of those occasions where we can't handwave the morally questionable decisions of the cast under the old excuse of, "They're martial artists. So their reasoning is majorly different by default". Nah. They're just acting reckless and Goku is being an idiot because the plot demands it to.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:54 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:This is one of those occasion were we can't handwave the morally questionable decisions of the cast under the old excuse of, "They're martial artists. So their reasoning is majorly different by default". Nah. They're just acting reckless and Goku is being an idiot because the plot demands it to.
The martial artists argument was beautifully shot down too: if everyone apparently thinks like Vegeta, why then do they try to do the pragmatic thing at literally every other point after this initial discussion and call Vegeta nuts for not doing so too.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:02 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:This is one of those occasions where we can't handwave the morally questionable decisions of the cast under the old excuse of, "They're martial artists. So their reasoning is majorly different by default". Nah. They're just acting reckless and Goku is being an idiot because the plot demands it to.
The martial artists argument was beautifully shot down too: if everyone apparently thinks like Vegeta, why then do they try to do the pragmatic thing at literally every other point after this initial discussion and call Vegeta nuts for not doing so too.
That is such a damn good point, that I don't know how to respond it other than saying... well... they're the main characters, and I guess we're supposed to always side with them, even when they huge hypocrites.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:10 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:This is one of those occasions where we can't handwave the morally questionable decisions of the cast under the old excuse of, "They're martial artists. So their reasoning is majorly different by default". Nah. They're just acting reckless and Goku is being an idiot because the plot demands it to.
The martial artists argument was beautifully shot down too: if everyone apparently thinks like Vegeta, why then do they try to do the pragmatic thing at literally every other point after this initial discussion and call Vegeta nuts for not doing so too.
That is such a damn good point, that I don't know how to respond it other than saying... well... they're the main characters, and I guess we're supposed to always side with them, even when they huge hypocrites.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just to jump off your old point, isn't Krillin the one who almost cries when he realizes he's likely gonna die helping Goku fight Raditz and that he'll never get a girlfriend? Where's that particular mindset now? If the cast knew Goku could teleport to King Kai and then skip over to New Namek to revive everyone, the cast not worrying too much would make a CRAP load more sense.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

Post Reply