MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by lancerman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:52 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
Regarder wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Goku wasn't the strongest, Gohan was. That was kind of the point in having him fight, actually.
That's not the point. Only Goku had any real confidence in that. They all knew that Gohan had these bursts of incredible power, but that's not sufficient to say that he can control it and just plain be that strong... until the plot gets to the point where he can finally do that. Everyone else would have good reason to be skeptical when Goku wasn't unable to continue, and even more so when he gave the senzu to Cell. Goku was clearly the strongest, in that his strength was clear. No gigantic caveats. Gohan was ultimately the strongest once those caveats had been dealt with, but only then.
Even prior to going to Ssj2, Gohan was stronger than Goku. There's plenty of evidence to suggest this.
That's a very debatable point. There were points where it seemed possible. But at the time it was happening it was heavily implied and for the most part a massive mismatch between SSJ Gohan and Perfect Cell. That also still ignores that even if Gohan might have been technically stronger, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for the the characters or the audience to accept that has a clear cut truth. Furthermore, even if Gohan might have been stronger in raw strength prior to SSJ2, Goku was far and away the more skilled fighter, had a better performance against Cell as a SSJ, and had better techniques. Until SSJ2 happened, Goku was still the idea candidate to face Cell. To double down on that, Goku's plan still hinged on Gohan having one of his rage freakouts and being able to control it in a way he had never done to truly make the case that he was the correct choice to fight, oh and by the way he didn't completely control it anyways and the planet was about to be destroyed save Instant Transmission because Gohan couldn't take care of business right away.

At the end of the day there was no reason for everyone but Goku (and that includes the audience) to believe in his plan and it still technically should have failed and Goku needed to bail Gohan out. So Goku did take a massive gamble when at the time he really was the fighter who should have faced Cell until SSJ2. He probably loses. But everyone else, including Gohan prior to SSJ2, was going to get massacred and Goku had a fighting chance.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by lancerman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:58 pm

jcogginsa wrote:Honestly, I think Goku getting angry at the death 20 causes is perfectly in keeping with his actions in waiting. Goku never wanted to let people die. His plan was always to prevent that from happening. He just didn't take the most effective means of doing so. That's wrong of him, but it's not the same as not caring
It's one of the more egregious examples of having it both ways though. In one case you have the extreme of Goku being completely negligent for 3 years because he finds a fight more exciting than potentially stopping a problem before it happens. Then that's juxtaposed with Goku having one of his few "Superman" moments where he gets self righteously angry over 20 killing innocent people who he has no connection to. I'd put that moment even above Goku's anger at Bora's, who he had just met, murder by Tao Pai Pai. It's probably the two furthest extremes in the series and they come at the very start of the same arc.
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:I will gladly accept "Vaudeville Robots" as 19 and 20's nicknames. I could never place what exactly Toriyama was going for but that works! More clothing segments! :clap:

I never gave a thought to Bulma's bringing baby Trunks not only because Toriyama clearly wanted to tell us that he had happened ASAP, but because it isn't beyond Bulma to come to two different conclusions at the same time and not put the right idea together (e.g. "Well I have to wish the guys well, solidarity and all that" "BUT I can't leave the baby, that would be wrong of me, wouldn't it?").

For the story in which half of the fighters are ultimately shelved for the last time, Android/Cell is actually great with the crew shuffling. Yamcha is the sole casualty there. Goku, Piccolo, and Tien being the tallest of the bunch does give that first encounter a bit a moment's heft (the great fire effect in the TV version definitely helps) simply for having removed the child and potential comic relief for a gasp- kind of like the Piccolo fight, yeah, only the demon slug is on the other side of the page. Good eye with the character's tracking Goku's decline too, I agree with all of that, it is a great start to the actual fisticuffs and what these particular robots are about. The other thing about Super Saiyans not being on soon-to-be-Gero's radar, which I think you didn't mention only because of where you cut off, is that its an initial ice cooler of relief that their reasoning for letting the androids show up on cue wasn't misplaced- Tien and Krillin are initially convinced that Goku had the game won already. Not only were they stronger than Gero had accounted for for simple training, as per the plan, but Gero concluded the surveillance at what might have been a reasonable time if not for certain a golden miracle that was presently thrashing his wingman. It dislodges Super Saiyan's mantle of simply being the Freeza breaker into norm of the series, as you said, and reiterates that it is an elephant any new baddie is going to have to kill. And that Toriyama ultimately does it not through Gero- he goofed- but with something entirely intangible suddenly becomes a nicer touch.

...but why didn't Gero survey them after they got back from Namek? Surely he wasn't counting on the heart virus to take Goku's life?
While it is a cool moment and serves a thematically purpose in this section of the story, I think it would be remiss to point out that the warning of these Androids did come from a boy from that could turn Super Saiyan.... who was unable to defeat them in his timeline. Not to sour the moment, but it also shows another degree of poor plotting. Granted it could either be a stroke of genius by Toriyama as a partial foreshadowing that these aren't the true threat. However, I think it's far more likely an oversight that Toriyama ignored for the moment. Still it's far from the most egregious and in story works out. However, to the audience, SSJ really shouldn't be viewed as a safe haven here.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:36 am

lancerman wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:Honestly, I think Goku getting angry at the death 20 causes is perfectly in keeping with his actions in waiting. Goku never wanted to let people die. His plan was always to prevent that from happening. He just didn't take the most effective means of doing so. That's wrong of him, but it's not the same as not caring
It's one of the more egregious examples of having it both ways though. In one case you have the extreme of Goku being completely negligent for 3 years because he finds a fight more exciting than potentially stopping a problem before it happens. Then that's juxtaposed with Goku having one of his few "Superman" moments where he gets self righteously angry over 20 killing innocent people who he has no connection to. I'd put that moment even above Goku's anger at Bora's, who he had just met, murder by Tao Pai Pai. It's probably the two furthest extremes in the series and they come at the very start of the same arc.
Except Goku wasn't completely negligent. He spent the whole time preparing to take out these androids.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:20 am

jcogginsa wrote:
lancerman wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:Honestly, I think Goku getting angry at the death 20 causes is perfectly in keeping with his actions in waiting. Goku never wanted to let people die. His plan was always to prevent that from happening. He just didn't take the most effective means of doing so. That's wrong of him, but it's not the same as not caring
It's one of the more egregious examples of having it both ways though. In one case you have the extreme of Goku being completely negligent for 3 years because he finds a fight more exciting than potentially stopping a problem before it happens. Then that's juxtaposed with Goku having one of his few "Superman" moments where he gets self righteously angry over 20 killing innocent people who he has no connection to. I'd put that moment even above Goku's anger at Bora's, who he had just met, murder by Tao Pai Pai. It's probably the two furthest extremes in the series and they come at the very start of the same arc.
Except Goku wasn't completely negligent. He spent the whole time preparing to take out these androids.
It's still a case of the series annoyingly flip flopping it's stance on things. It's okay to be a selfish battle junkie until it arbitrarily isn't anymore and vice versa, it really starts with this arc hard and nothing that follows manages to remedy the problem.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:57 am

lancerman wrote:While it is a cool moment and serves a thematically purpose in this section of the story, I think it would be remiss to point out that the warning of these Androids did come from a boy from that could turn Super Saiyan.... who was unable to defeat them in his timeline. Not to sour the moment, but it also shows another degree of poor plotting. Granted it could either be a stroke of genius by Toriyama as a partial foreshadowing that these aren't the true threat. However, I think it's far more likely an oversight that Toriyama ignored for the moment. Still it's far from the most egregious and in story works out. However, to the audience, SSJ really shouldn't be viewed as a safe haven here.
It does ultimately rest on when Toriyama decided to supplant 19 and 20, yes. But taken on its own, that's why what I last wrote matters. Trunks explicitly says Super Saiyan won't stop the androids- but then they show up in our timeline and it turns out to do the job just fine! Why the turnaround?
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Weejus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:31 pm

I know this doesn't really contribute anything to the discussion at hand, but I want to say that I thoroughly enjoy Dragon Ball Dissection and am always excited whenever a new instalment comes out. Amidst the neverending, overreacting hype storm that seems to pervade Dragon Ball discussion on social media, I appreciate a slower, calmer, more genuinely critical approach to analysing the series. I don't agree with everything stated in the series, but more often than not, it feels nice to have my opinions represented (for example, out of all my IRL friends that are into Dragon Ball, I am the only one that dislikes Resurrection 'F'). As such, thank you.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:
lancerman wrote:It's one of the more egregious examples of having it both ways though. In one case you have the extreme of Goku being completely negligent for 3 years because he finds a fight more exciting than potentially stopping a problem before it happens. Then that's juxtaposed with Goku having one of his few "Superman" moments where he gets self righteously angry over 20 killing innocent people who he has no connection to. I'd put that moment even above Goku's anger at Bora's, who he had just met, murder by Tao Pai Pai. It's probably the two furthest extremes in the series and they come at the very start of the same arc.
Except Goku wasn't completely negligent. He spent the whole time preparing to take out these androids.
It's still a case of the series annoyingly flip flopping it's stance on things. It's okay to be a selfish battle junkie until it arbitrarily isn't anymore and vice versa, it really starts with this arc hard and nothing that follows manages to remedy the problem.
The Goku who was angry at #20 for blasting innocent people is still a selfish battle junkie. People aren't just one thing or another. Things aren't black and white. You can want a good fight, but still prefer people not to die as a result, if possible. You can be confident in your ability to prevent bloodshed entirely, and be upset when you turn out to be wrong, and try to put a stop to it. People can value multiple things, juggle those values, and have one take overall priority without entirely abandoning the others. Making a big decision in accordance with the more fundamental value, while still acting in accordance with your other values (when doing so wouldn't wholly undermine said prior big decision), is coherent human behavior. That's not flip-flopping, that's...how people think, rationalize, and act. Flip-flopping would be if Goku immediately stopped wanting to fight them altogether.

And, again, the more detached one is from violence and death, the less visceral and emotionally-stimulating it is, and thus the less it compels one to immediate action. It's why, in the "Runaway Trolley" moral dilemma, people tend to be more willing to pull a lever to trade one life for five, but tend to be less willing to physically push another person to trade one life for five (this discrepancy in willingness is commonly rationalized by subjects as the latter involving a violation of personal autonomy, but brain scans, in tandem with some other clever twists, suggest that this is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization, rather than an actual motive that makes one instance more ethically attractive than the other). Some guy saying "people die in the future" and actually seeing people die in front of you are on complete opposite ends, in terms of abstraction and immediacy.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:22 pm

Zephyr wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
jcogginsa wrote: Except Goku wasn't completely negligent. He spent the whole time preparing to take out these androids.
It's still a case of the series annoyingly flip flopping it's stance on things. It's okay to be a selfish battle junkie until it arbitrarily isn't anymore and vice versa, it really starts with this arc hard and nothing that follows manages to remedy the problem.
The Goku who was angry at #20 for blasting innocent people is still a selfish battle junkie. People aren't just one thing or another. Things aren't black and white. You can want a good fight, but still prefer people not to die as a result, if possible. You can be confident in your ability to prevent bloodshed entirely, and be upset when you turn out to be wrong, and try to put a stop to it. People can value multiple things, juggle those values, and have one take overall priority without entirely abandoning the others. Making a big decision in accordance with the more fundamental value, while still acting in accordance with your other values (when doing so wouldn't wholly undermine said prior big decision), is coherent human behavior. That's not flip-flopping, that's...how people think, rationalize, and act. Flip-flopping would be if Goku immediately stopped wanting to fight them altogether.

And, again, the more detached one is from violence and death, the less visceral and emotionally-stimulating it is, and thus the less it compels one to immediate action. It's why, in the "Runaway Trolley" moral dilemma, people tend to be more willing to pull a lever to trade one life for five, but tend to be less willing to physically push another person to trade one life for five (this discrepancy in willingness is commonly rationalized by subjects as the latter involving a violation of personal autonomy, but brain scans, in tandem with some other clever twists, suggest that this is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization, rather than an actual motive that makes one instance more ethically attractive than the other). Some guy saying "people die in the future" and actually seeing people die in front of you are on complete opposite ends, in terms of abstraction and immediacy.
I feel this is something incredibly important that often gets lost in character analysis within the series. Characters have different reaction for different scenarios, but it seems like many people want to find one common motivator and recontextualize every action to fit through that lens when that is virtually never the case.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:08 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: It's still a case of the series annoyingly flip flopping it's stance on things. It's okay to be a selfish battle junkie until it arbitrarily isn't anymore and vice versa, it really starts with this arc hard and nothing that follows manages to remedy the problem.
The Goku who was angry at #20 for blasting innocent people is still a selfish battle junkie. People aren't just one thing or another. Things aren't black and white. You can want a good fight, but still prefer people not to die as a result, if possible. You can be confident in your ability to prevent bloodshed entirely, and be upset when you turn out to be wrong, and try to put a stop to it. People can value multiple things, juggle those values, and have one take overall priority without entirely abandoning the others. Making a big decision in accordance with the more fundamental value, while still acting in accordance with your other values (when doing so wouldn't wholly undermine said prior big decision), is coherent human behavior. That's not flip-flopping, that's...how people think, rationalize, and act. Flip-flopping would be if Goku immediately stopped wanting to fight them altogether.

And, again, the more detached one is from violence and death, the less visceral and emotionally-stimulating it is, and thus the less it compels one to immediate action. It's why, in the "Runaway Trolley" moral dilemma, people tend to be more willing to pull a lever to trade one life for five, but tend to be less willing to physically push another person to trade one life for five (this discrepancy in willingness is commonly rationalized by subjects as the latter involving a violation of personal autonomy, but brain scans, in tandem with some other clever twists, suggest that this is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization, rather than an actual motive that makes one instance more ethically attractive than the other). Some guy saying "people die in the future" and actually seeing people die in front of you are on complete opposite ends, in terms of abstraction and immediacy.
I feel this is something incredibly important that often gets lost in character analysis within the series. Characters have different reaction for different scenarios, but it seems like many people want to find one common motivator and recontextualize every action to fit through that lens when that is virtually never the case.
Seconding this. Zephyr brilliantly summarized the core crux of much of what I was trying to get across to Gaffer in two simple paragraphs: just because Goku doesn't think far enough ahead and is reckless, doesn't make him a monster who doesn't care when innocent people suffer and die. What it makes him is human, and believably human at that. Whether intentional or not (I'd likely say not of course, but I think Toriyama's gut intuition and instincts here are at least very much sound) Toriyama's depiction of Goku in arcs like this strikes me as more, for lack of a better word, "realistic" and genuine than in a VAST majority of later, DB-derivative Shonen protagonists. It doesn't make Goku RIGHT from a moral or ethical standpoint, nor does it make him thoughtful (Goku? Lacking in thought? Get out.): it makes him flawed, and it does so using both characteristics innate to many martial arts protagonists of his particular type as well as just a simple, and all too commonly overlooked logistical lapse in human psychology that's very much a real thing.

This is what I was also trying to get at whenever I tell people that they're approaching both this series and the characters' from the wrong angle. Whether its conscious or not (and for some folks even who are full-on Japanese version-centric in their fandom, its many times not), there's a LOT of Western fandom who on SOME level approach this series on a gut level as some variation of a superhero narrative where the characters all hold to an innate responsibility to protect others from external threats at all costs as their main motivating priority, as opposed to what it ACTUALLY is, which it not only a martial arts narrative where the characters all hold to an innate drive to improve and test their fighting skills above all else (and only sometimes in some circumstances using them to protect or help others), but furthermore one that's populated with characters that are familiar to fans of Toriyama's other works: weird, selfish, vaguely dickheaded fuckups whose hearts are at least generally in the right place.

But yes, I tend to find that Goku's attitude toward the devastation caused by #20 to ring perfectly true and in line not only with his character, but also with just baseline human psychology (which seemed obvious to me even back in the day as a kid) when it comes to how many people in real life often fail to process the gravity of various life or death dangers unless we're right then and there directly confronted with them face to face.

We see this occur every day in countless people, including right now with current events: not to rope real life politics into this too much, but note the EXTREME disparity in how vast swathes of people will react when confronted with topics ranging from climate change to war in the middle east to racial discrimination in law enforcement: hardly everyone processes the life and death pain and suffering of others in ways that might strike an altruistic mind as logical or moral when that pain and suffering is far enough removed or detached from their personal periphery.

Goku's hardly a very bright thinker (outside of in-the-moment martial arts fighting strategy and techniques) anyway: you expect him to be able to deal with the kinds of moral and ethical dilemmas involving the lives of BILLIONS of people that often completely elude even people with far, far, FAR greater intellects than him? People in real life with PhD's would make similarly wrong and immoral calls when faced with similar kinds of situations that Goku faces in the early Cell arc (i.e. prioritizing the far-off, intangible lives of a faceless mass of people over their own immediate interests and gratification).

I think that a lot of the issue here, again not to sound like a broken record, is baked deeply into how people who read or watch a lot of mainstream nerd media (most of which is either superheroic in nature, or skews relatively close-ish to it) are "trained" over time, both consciously and subconsciously, to process and rationalize character actions in narratives, and looking for a certain moral and ethical "consistency" that matches up with a vague, idealized "heroic" type of character that's often relied upon in fiction in countless zillions of stories (and yes, based on his writing and words, I think that Gaffer's fallen prey to this type of unconscious narrative expectation himself, which is what's fueling his frustrations with the decisions made in this arc: he's more than welcome to by all means correct me there if I'm wrong). Dragon Ball throws people a curve ball in being not only of an Eastern fantasy genre with a baked-in set of archaic and foreign morals that have very little to do with those found in most Western media, but also with very Toriyama-esque characters who are both "quirky" and sometimes too-close-to-reality in terms of some of the basic natures of human selfishness that they often embody.

Of course I don't think that Toriyama had all or any of this at the forefront of his mind when he wrote any of this, and I've no doubt that he was simply writing himself out of a corner here: I just think that his own natural instincts in how he crafts his characters lends themselves to these kinds of more "realistic" depictions of people acting in more self-centered ways rather than always reliably stepping up to the plate and being a perfect, noble, stalwart hero when the chips are down. Because Toriyama is a reclusive weirdo himself who doesn't particularly care about making his characters "likable" in some universal manner: thus, in particularly strange and unexpected ways like this, they often come across as more closer to unflattering reality in terms of their own instincts and behavior than most "idealized" fictional fantasy heroes tend to.

People in both real life, as well as in some forms of fiction, aren't just "one thing" like Zeph said: they're complicated, inconsistent, and make sometimes incredibly gross errors in judgement. I think that Goku's decisions here fall MUCH closer (not exactly the same 1 to 1 obviously, but within the same general ballpark of poorly rationalized and selfish decision making) to the kind of thinking we see in real life where an Exxon CEO circa 1980 will be confronted with a scientific report that fossil fuel emissions are slowly killing the ecosystem and is a long-term threat to all life on Earth as we know it, and instead of taking that warning with the necessary dire seriousness they'll opt to instead sweep that info under the rug and continue to collect his profits and let the future ramifications be someone else's problem decades down the road, as opposed to the "Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor stop and play Skee-Ball in the middle of being chased by the Terminator" example that Gaffer tried to draw a comparison to earlier.

The latter example that Gaffer used wouldn't work for the Terminator's narrative not only because its illogical on its face, but also because it doesn't at all ring true to VERY basic human survival instincts and behavior that we see every day. We're hard wired to treat any IMMEDIATE threat to our safety with the utmost and paramount priority. We're NOT very well wired psychologically when it comes to processing threats that are less immediate and more abstract in nature. That doesn't make that lack of forethought either moral or intelligent mind you: it's just an all too common and tragic flaw and failing in human instincts that's FAR more common and widespread than most are generally willing to realize or admit.

None of this justifies Goku's decisions from an intellectual or ethical perspective, nor does it make him more likable: quite the opposite of course. But it DOES make him, in my eyes anyway, MUCH more believable as a flesh and blood person, and thus more interesting and even - to a certain extent - relatable. And its more than emotionally and psychologically sound and sensible to me that Goku (like most people) would still react in abject horror and outrage when he sees innocent lives violently taken directly the fuck in front of him: despite his own lack of foresight and giving into his slefish desires years earlier helping to directly lead to those lives being endangered in the first place. Again, this is how human minds are generally wired: to react big to immediate problems or threats facing us in the immediate moment, and much less so to far off distant, abstract, potential problems that we can't put a face to.

No, it isn't "logical" nor is it "consistent": but what it is is VERY much human (i.e. beings who are oftentimes anything but logical or consistent), and all too real of a thing that many people do, whether they understand it consciously or not.

Within the specific context of the specific circumstances that Trunks presents within this story, most people today wouldn't face the temptation to not react with logical foresight like Goku does here, because most people today aren't fundamentally driven at their core by pushing their martial arts prowess to its absolute limits and beyond. Goku however is a protagonist in a Chinese-derived (and whimsically off-kilter) martial arts fantasy epic, so the call of a great challenge to his skills and an opportunity to further better them will be of a MUCH more enticing clarion call than it would be for character types outside his particular genre neck of the woods, where it might be something more like money, power, status, or love/sex or something along those lines that might tempt them away from reacting with logically sound moral judgement. Thus, the specifics of the details here might be unique or different due to both the genre/character-type and their cultural origins: but the overall basic psychology inherent is plenty universal and timeless to simple and prominant foibles in human nature.

Its VERY easy, as an audience member, to read fiction where characters are faced with over the top levels of danger, threats, risks, and consequences, and say to oneself "that's not how I would've handled it: if it were ME, I certainly would've done X, Y, or Z which makes MUCH more sense and is MUCH more heroic." But unfortunately, I think that there's FAR more Goku's out there in the day to day real world than there are Supermen or Batmen: people who when faced with overwhelmingly dire stakes and incredibly massive responsibility for the lives of others over a vast amount of time, would place themselves and their own immediate selfish interests above the far-reaching altruistic well being of a faceless, and incalculable mass of "others", while rationalizing to themselves all the while that "It'll all be ok, it'll all work itself out in the end somehow".

Thinking that everyone, or even most people, would be able to see the obviousness of reacting to a warning like Trunks' with full morally and ethically consistent altruism and foresight, is not only a MASSIVE misunderstanding of fundamentally basic human psychology, it also on some level smacks of thoroughly wishful thinking and rose-tinted idealism.

Yeah, that's a LOT of heady shit to unpack from a dumb, silly, and ridiculous "cyborgs and time traveling insect men from the future terrorize martial artists" wuxia children's comic from the early 90s: but I would think that when an otherwise dumb piece of genre pulp does something in a way that fosters this kind of discussion and thought, even ACCIDENTALLY as the case is here, then that's something that ought to be looked to as a GOOD and POSITIVE aspect of it, rather than shat on because "Boo, I want my genre heroes to be more predictably simplistic, idealized, and "consistent" in their every action and decision, without tangentially reminding me of how horribly broken most people's moral compasses are!"

All the more so in this case, because I don't think that the story necessarily takes Goku's side in how he behaves: I think that characters like Bulma are much more meant to be the audience surrogate here (the "non-martial artist, normal person's POV" if you will: which is also partly why I'm more than fine with docking points for not having Bulma go off on her own and try to use the knowledge from the future to undo Gero's plans ahead of time without any help from Goku and co. - not only is it indeed out of character for her to not take any action, it's also just a colossal missed opportunity for good drama and storytelling any way you slice it or dice it). Goku isn't at all glorified by the narrative for how he handles any of this: it just is what it is, and Goku's personality and actions are presented in a very matter-of-fact, take-it-for-what-it-is type of manner.

I don't think that DB is thus making some kind of warped argument for thinking and acting like a lunkheaded hayseed kung fu fanatic like Goku does in scenarios like this, so I don't think that this falls under the same heading of "problematic" in the same way that other morally iffy unintentional (or intentional) undertones in other stories (or even a few in DB itself earlier on) often tend to. Its just the character's nature reacting to its logical extreme, and you either go along with it while understanding that its not being either condoned or condemned by the narrative, or you don't.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 pm

I've always personally interpreted it as Toriyama's way of saying "well this doesn't really make sense, but I need a plot so bear with me," and nothing more.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by lancerman » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:45 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: It's still a case of the series annoyingly flip flopping it's stance on things. It's okay to be a selfish battle junkie until it arbitrarily isn't anymore and vice versa, it really starts with this arc hard and nothing that follows manages to remedy the problem.
The Goku who was angry at #20 for blasting innocent people is still a selfish battle junkie. People aren't just one thing or another. Things aren't black and white. You can want a good fight, but still prefer people not to die as a result, if possible. You can be confident in your ability to prevent bloodshed entirely, and be upset when you turn out to be wrong, and try to put a stop to it. People can value multiple things, juggle those values, and have one take overall priority without entirely abandoning the others. Making a big decision in accordance with the more fundamental value, while still acting in accordance with your other values (when doing so wouldn't wholly undermine said prior big decision), is coherent human behavior. That's not flip-flopping, that's...how people think, rationalize, and act. Flip-flopping would be if Goku immediately stopped wanting to fight them altogether.

And, again, the more detached one is from violence and death, the less visceral and emotionally-stimulating it is, and thus the less it compels one to immediate action. It's why, in the "Runaway Trolley" moral dilemma, people tend to be more willing to pull a lever to trade one life for five, but tend to be less willing to physically push another person to trade one life for five (this discrepancy in willingness is commonly rationalized by subjects as the latter involving a violation of personal autonomy, but brain scans, in tandem with some other clever twists, suggest that this is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization, rather than an actual motive that makes one instance more ethically attractive than the other). Some guy saying "people die in the future" and actually seeing people die in front of you are on complete opposite ends, in terms of abstraction and immediacy.
I feel this is something incredibly important that often gets lost in character analysis within the series. Characters have different reaction for different scenarios, but it seems like many people want to find one common motivator and recontextualize every action to fit through that lens when that is virtually never the case.
I think it's a lot easier to accept this situation in moderation like in the Red Ribbon Army arc where yes he wants to resurrect Bora, but to do that he gets his fighting fix in by training to defeat Tao and still gets to go after his 4 star ball like he wanted. This is a lot closer to him going all the way to the left and then all the way to the right. Like there is absolutely no reason they can't gather the Dragon Balls or talk to Baba and ask where Gero is to nip the whole thing in the bud right there.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:19 am

There are reasons, though. There are a lot of reasons, and they’re all character driven.

Vegeta threatens to kill everyone if they stop Gero early.

Kuririn, cleverly, rationalizes that it’s better for them all to have a common enemy while Vegeta’s around.

Goku, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo all want to test themselves against the Androids.

On top of that, the context of the situation gives them an enormous advantage: Goku has a cure for his heart virus, they have three years to train non-stop, and they know when and where the Androids will attack.

Plus, like Kunzait said, there’s basis in reality for ignoring immediate solutions to future problems. Regardless, the character reasons for not stopping Gero early are sound. If anything, the alternative would feel horribly out of place in the series.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Just stopped by to Tell GafferTape that the intro to the Cell Arc DBDs is FUCKING BAD ASS.. I'm always caught up with your releases but I just finished Cooking and have had DBDs play while I cooked and every time the intro played I'd stop,take a look and just be in Awe.. Keep up the GREAT Work Man!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:11 am

I think this section of the arc is somewhat underrated, as you noted the characters have good interactions and the battles with 19 and 20 have good choreography on top of being solved without purely application of brute force. 19 and 20 aren't a million time stronger than Freeza, because Gero never foresaw that anyone could be that strong, but they have nifty abilities (mainly their energy draining palms, but also their unusual durability relative to offensive power and their ability to disappear because they can't be sensed) and the heroes handicaps (Goku's heart disease) that make them threatening even after their power has been outmatched.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:13 pm

lancerman wrote:I think it's a lot easier to accept this situation in moderation like in the Red Ribbon Army arc where yes he wants to resurrect Bora, but to do that he gets his fighting fix in by training to defeat Tao and still gets to go after his 4 star ball like he wanted. This is a lot closer to him going all the way to the left and then all the way to the right. Like there is absolutely no reason they can't gather the Dragon Balls or talk to Baba and ask where Gero is to nip the whole thing in the bud right there.
Again, Goku cares about growing stronger and fighting fun opponents, more than anything else. That's his most fundamental value. But he also cares about helping and saving people in need. But that's not his most fundamental value, it's secondary. When the two values come into conflict, and one is more fundamental than the other, it's clear which one Goku is going to act in accordance with.

In the Red Ribbon Army arc, like you said, the quest to help Bora facilitates his fighting fix. The secondary value lines up with the fundamental value. In the Cell arc, here, what you're proposing would see the secondary value and the fundamental value being at odds. Nipping Gero in the bud would not facilitate his fighting fix. It's consistent with Goku's character to opt to let them be made so he can take a swing at them.

And now, fast forward to a bad guy blasting innocent people: beating the crap out of him is both altruistic (it gets him to stop blasting innocent people), and it facilitates his fighting fix.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue May 08, 2018 10:56 am

This is not strictly Dragon Ball Dissection, but I did attend Kameha Con this past weekend, and I have a few videos of it I'm hoping to upload pretty soon. I do have the first one up already. I was privileged enough to present my own panel, which was all about that famous letter Z. So I discuss where it came from, why it came from, and who influenced the legendary split.

Sparking! The Secret History of Dragon Ball Z
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Attitudefan » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:18 pm

@GafferTape

I was just re-watching the Cell Arc Part 3 dissection, and your thoughts on why Goku is looked on by a portion of the audience (and why the anime staff depicted him rightous like Superman) made me think back to Goku's early character development. When he is given the cloud to ride on, he is established to be pure of heart. In your essay, you give Toriyama's claim that Goku is pure in his intentions, which is simplified down to just wanting to fight. However, that claim is definitely made at least a decade after the early portions of Dragon Ball. Devilman was shown, in the manga, to be unable to kill Goku because his heart is truly pure and devoid of sin. Would it be wrong, then, to assume Goku is not a good person? Seeing that scene, and then even his speech to Freeza (even in the English dub) I honestly don't see how Goku being similar to Superman is a wrong interpretation: it only seems as proper progression to show Goku grow more righteuos as he understands consequences to certain actions better as he gets older. Having a helpless child, vulnerable to danger, could allow Goku to even think more about the innocent and how they need protection.

This seems to be the case when he meets Raditz: Goku as an adult is shown to have grown up and understand morals even better than he did before and runs off to protect his son from danger. He is also seen as abhorrent to the idea that his brother and his race conquer living things that are essentially defenseless when faced against the Saiyans.

I only see post-Freeza arc Goku as a regression of a character, rather than progression. I doubt he would be able to fly the kinto-un/nimbus cloud in the Cell arc and beyond. His selfish and childish behaviour is exemplified as the years go on since the Cell arc, where in Super, the character is flanderized. He is shown to be nearly unable to comprehend his surroundings and only wants to fight, regardless of the consequences. This is not the same Goku we see when he is an adult and a father. A man who urgently runs to battle without thinking of his own safety, yet he is concerned for everyone else and their well-being.

Hence, we see the Toei staff follow early adult Goku becoming more selfless as time goes on, culminating in becoming a godly saviour who can heal animals with his ki. It is after this moment (after the time of the Cooler films) where Toriyama must have stepped in, addressing his concerns that Goku is not a pure heroic, but purely instinctual to the need to fight. That is speculation on my part, sure, but the beginning of Goku's flanderization creeps in after that particular Cooler film and time period.

Now, I know Saiyan arc Goku let's Vegeta go, and luckily that decision worked out for the better. I don't think that particular moment negatively affects a progression of Goku being more righteous in his purity as it works out for the better during the Freeza arc. Again, Goku has that moment, in the manga, on how he must defeat Freeza for the sake of the innocent and those who were slain by Freeza and his army.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/4/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:05 am

Piccolo Explains Things Badly - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 5!

The Artificial Humans are defeated through the power of Super Saiyan and weird exposition. Then Trunks has to show up and retcon everything. What a jerk...

As always, let me know what you think. Thanks for watching!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/4/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 am

Another great video. You noticed a lot of things here that never really dawned on me before, like how Piccolo does a lot of odd stuff (although I'd always noticed his laughable claim Vegeta's a fighting genius after Vegeta acts like an idiot).
Your comment about sensu being a free action in the past--you know, I like to think that's why using items in the old 8/16-bit Dragon Ball Z RPGs, doesn't take up a character's turn, unlike most RPGs of that era.

I saw your comment on Bulma knowing where Gero's lab was but on Twitter. I mentioned it to my brother, and he (jokingly) suggested she used the dragon balls to find Gero's lab in case the fighters wised up at some point, and then lied about how she knew where it was, secure in the knowledge nobody would remember her plan three years ago.

For the sudden rush to stop Gero now when they just let him build murder-robots three years ago--pretty much the only explanation I can think of (outside of everyone being out of character) is that everyone was 100% sure Goku was their trump card and they don't want to risk it without him...but that requires Vegeta being incredibly out of character now, instead.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/4/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:59 am

I find the retcon with 20 and 19 weird here because, well, everybody watched the Anime which made it more vague enough to work and few care about how the original botched that one up. Yet you drive the point home here.

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