MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:12 am

The Making of Dragon Ball Dissection

And now for something completely different! I take you behind the scenes of what goes into a DBD episode. This might be one of the most involving things I've ever done. I hope you like it.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:45 pm

Great making of. Very informative.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:32 pm

I've never done video recording or editing so this was a nice insider look at that sort of work, thanks!

I'll never un-see Goku borrowing Kuririn's hand, though.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:17 am

Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by OhHiRenan » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:40 am

I really don't see Tenshinhan forgetting Piccolo was a demon as a belittling or insulting moment for him. Piccolo has been a major, and rather amicable, part of the cast for two and a half arcs now. Ten's line is a way of expressing just how smoothly Piccolo has eased his way into the cast over the years.

It's also worth mentioning that there's always been a divide between Piccolo Daimao and the Piccolo we see mature and development over the course of the series. If the latter were literally Piccolo Daimao, sure, it'd be silly for Tenshinhan not to hold a grudge. Piccolo isn't explicitly Piccolo Daimao, though. He looks different, he acts different, and his motivations are different. Piccolo Daimao killed Muten Roshi, Chaozu, and nearly killed Tenshinhan. Piccolo tries to kill Goku during a tournament and fails. After that, never bothers anyone for five years.

Which is another thing worth mentioning. A lot of time has passed since the Piccolo Daimao arc. It makes sense that Tenshinhan would be more used to this Piccolo by this point in the overall story.

In general, I also just disagree that Toriyama is taking the piss out on the Earthlings. Yamcha and Tenshinhan's arcs are done and have been done. Yamcha bowing out is a moment that makes sense for him given the progression of his character. Tenshinhan sticking around even if he's outclassed also makes sense for him. But they're both fully developed characters and have been for a few arcs, Yamcha even more so. Chaozu was never really a character with depth so I see no harm whatsoever in Toriyama just keeping him out of the action. He was always just an extension of Ten's character, a character who stands alone just fine.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/6/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:01 pm

Just to make it official:

When Battles End - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 7!

I'll have to respond to comments later. I'm at work. But thank you, as always, for watching!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/6/18!)

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:52 pm

Honestly I feel the reason why the Cyborgs were different in the future was more that Goku was DEAD before they could even kill him. He never fought the Cyborgs and died a year before they showed up. So basically they never got to complete their primary objective. So they probably just had to fill that hole with something else. At least that's my own theory on it.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by emi_b7 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:46 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:I really don't see Tenshinhan forgetting Piccolo was a demon as a belittling or insulting moment for him. Piccolo has been a major, and rather amicable, part of the cast for two and a half arcs now. Ten's line is a way of expressing just how smoothly Piccolo has eased his way into the cast over the years.

Which is another thing worth mentioning. A lot of time has passed since the Piccolo Daimao arc. It makes sense that Tenshinhan would be more used to this Piccolo by this point in the overall story.
Tenshinhan is barely part of the cast though, he doesn't hang around with them or anything. While it's true that a couple of long arcs passed, Tenshinhan has only seen Piccolo 4 times:
-1st time he tried to kill everybody
-2nd time when they fight Nappa and then spend a couple of days on Kaio's planet until they bring Piccolo back
-3rd when Goku/Freeza come back
-4th time now against the androids
You also have to consider that after the first time, Piccolo stayed as a looming threat for 5 years. We don't see that because of the timeskip but he was the enemy for longer than anybody else in the series.
Also, even if Piccolo is not literally Daimao, he isn't exactly a different person either. Piccolo Daimao killed Chiaotzu (and others) and Tenshinhan learned a suicide move just to get revenge.

There's no way Tenshinhan would forget all of that. I don't think this is Toriyama intentionally belittling him or anything (which I think you can argue in Yamcha's case), someone needed to play that role for the sake of exposition and he got the short end of the stick (you could argue that humans always get the short end of the stick in these arcs though). Just a badly written scene, I guess.
There's a similar scene in DBS episode 109 where Krillin explains to Tenshinhan (and Kaioshin) how warriors act and why Jiren would be interested in Goku, which I found even more ridiculous.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/5/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:25 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:I really don't see Tenshinhan forgetting Piccolo was a demon as a belittling or insulting moment for him. Piccolo has been a major, and rather amicable, part of the cast for two and a half arcs now. Ten's line is a way of expressing just how smoothly Piccolo has eased his way into the cast over the years.

It's also worth mentioning that there's always been a divide between Piccolo Daimao and the Piccolo we see mature and development over the course of the series. If the latter were literally Piccolo Daimao, sure, it'd be silly for Tenshinhan not to hold a grudge. Piccolo isn't explicitly Piccolo Daimao, though. He looks different, he acts different, and his motivations are different. Piccolo Daimao killed Muten Roshi, Chaozu, and nearly killed Tenshinhan. Piccolo tries to kill Goku during a tournament and fails. After that, never bothers anyone for five years.

Which is another thing worth mentioning. A lot of time has passed since the Piccolo Daimao arc. It makes sense that Tenshinhan would be more used to this Piccolo by this point in the overall story.

In general, I also just disagree that Toriyama is taking the piss out on the Earthlings. Yamcha and Tenshinhan's arcs are done and have been done. Yamcha bowing out is a moment that makes sense for him given the progression of his character. Tenshinhan sticking around even if he's outclassed also makes sense for him. But they're both fully developed characters and have been for a few arcs, Yamcha even more so. Chaozu was never really a character with depth so I see no harm whatsoever in Toriyama just keeping him out of the action. He was always just an extension of Ten's character, a character who stands alone just fine.
The way I see it is you have a scene. You have characters populating a scene. All of them need to have some kind of a role. And, yes, this particular scene did require a character to express confusion over Piccolo so that the situation could be explained. Now, Kuririn is the obvious choice to do the explaining, not least because the Grand Elder had told him about this before. So that just leaves Trunks and Tenshinhan. The logical choice would be Trunks because it would make perfect sense for Trunks to not be briefed on events that occurred before he was born involving people who were long dead before he was even aware of them existing. But Trunks is full of a big character arc, exposition, pathos, and distress. There's plenty of stuff to give him to do and say in tons of other scenes in this arc. What does Tenshinhan have to do? Nothing. He's just there to help out. There's absolutely no character or story baggage he is carrying at this point in the serialization. So why not give him the line? From that perspective, it makes sense to give Tenshinhan the line. And from that perspective, I applaud Toriyama for at least remembering the guy enough to have him speak and contribute in some way. But when you look at it from a character perspective, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Am I saying it's impossible for him to have a brain fart? Of course not. We all make mistakes. And, yes, a lot has happened. And while it's easy to say he only spent six days with Piccolo, we have to presume they traveled the Serpentine Road together as well, so that's a big chunk of time. And there certainly is enough goodwill built up between them that I can see him totally forgiving Piccolo, especially for the crimes of his previous incarnation. However, I find it hard to see him forgetting, even for a moment, because:
emi_b7 wrote:Piccolo Daimao killed Chiaotzu
I am absolutely kicking myself for not thinking to use an image of that in my video. That is the clincher right there. Just based on that alone, it's a slap in the face to the character that he would be given that line.

But generally speaking, I see this use of Tenshinhan the same way I see the scenes with Trunks before they knew who he was. Toriyama needed character to mistrust him but not characters he was interested in giving a role to. So it got foisted onto Yamcha and Tenshinhan. This seems eerily similar to me. Someone has to ask the question, so just give it to that guy over there.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/6/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:16 pm

Krillin: Why you gotta kill man.
#17: We need a plot man.

Doesn't #17 say that #18 wouldn't be able to handle Vegeta + Piccolo + Krillin + Tenshinan at once? They don't seem that powerful. Oh well.

Tenshinhan forgetting Piccolo being a baddie is probably just having him serve as a quick audience surrogate. Still, it would have been better if someone like Trunks had forgotten and not Tenshinhan. It's kind of like how later in the arc, Piccolo is surprised that Cell can do the Solar Flare and that non-Tenshinhan characters can use the move, despite Goku using the move on Piccolo himself.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:17 am

How Cell's Mystery Was Ruined - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 8!

Cell is introduced as the possibly the creepiest and most mysterious of all Dragon Ball villains. There's just one thing that causes it to unravel. Also, I take a look at the crazy, mixed up world of time travel. This was a difficult episode to make, comparing various translations just to make sure I'm not jumping on a detail that's wrong. Viz gets a few of these time travel details wrong, for example, and it really almost threw me before I did more research. I'm all about pointing out mistakes but only correct mistakes!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:30 am

100% agree about Cell, for all its faults I think the Goku Black mystery from the Super anime works a lot better because they intentionally hold info back until much later.

But just like Cell, Black gets undermined a lot by the stupid time travel mechanics. This brings me to my question: can someone please explain to me why there are two different Future Trunks timelines?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gokuman1993 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:25 pm

You got a great point, MistareFusion. The mystery behind Cell could've gone further and further, making the reveal more surprising. Instead, we get an info dump from the supposedly mysterious creature. It does really ruin the mystique and horror behind him. It'd be like Jason Voorhees telling his entire backstory, his resurrection and his motivations after spending almost a minute or two being this creature of unknown origin, or something....

Also, HOLY HFIL! Time travel is confusing! :? Kinda makes you wonder why Future Trunks even bothered going back to the past if he knew this wouldn't effect his timeline in any way? I mean, yeah, so he'd get strong enough to fight the Future Androids, but still....

Plus, kinda surprised you didn't give us any info on how Vegeta's doing during his tantrum. Though, I guess we have to wait til the next video for that.... I imagine it'd be like "WAAAAH! WHY ARE THEY SO STRONG?! NO FAIR, NO FAIR! I'M SUPPOSED TO BE THE STRONGEST! WAAAAAAH!" and "STUPID CYBORGS! STUPID KAKAROT! I'M COOLER AND STRONGER AND BETTER THAN THEM! I'M GONNA BEAT THEM UP!" :lol: :lol: :lol: Future Trunks, this is your dad.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Scsigs » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:51 pm

In terms of how the time travel was revealed to work in DB, I don't know if it was a fault of the anime writers making it a bit easier to digest with the way they played the reveals & reactions compared to the manga, but I always thought that the way the time travel was revealed to work was natural to the story & served from creating more plot holes time travel stories often create, like if a person were to time travel back to the past to prevent the event that was their catalyst for traveling, they wouldn't have had that reason &, thus, either the timeline would snap back to how it originally was &/or the universe would snap in half or something. Then Team Four Star made it easier to digest, even though "multiverse theory" isn't right either technically, since Super would show what the multiverse actually is in DB. Let me explain.
1. You say Trunks should've known that the time travel would've worked the way it does from the start. No, that doesn't make sense. Time travel was entirely new to him & future Bulma. He didn't know that the timeline would be split in 2 until it was actually shown to him that that's what would happen.
2. You ask why the time machine would transport him between the timelines, rather than his own. It seems that it works on a coordinate system for its navigational software. When he traveled back to the new timeline, just at a later date, the thing would have the coordinates to arrive in the new timeline at any point along it.

Maybe I'm fan wanking this a bit hard, since I haven't read the manga & have only seen these events through Kai, & I do agree that it seems to be introduced kind of poorly because of how Toriyama wrote the manga, but I love time travel & science fiction stories & think some of these things are explainable, given the context in the story as it's presented. Also, I don't think Gohan asking if they could go back to change history again was too contrived. Sure, having any of the other characters ask about it probably would've fit better, but Gohan asking isn't out of the realm of possibility, since he's a smart kid who'd probably be curious about that stuff.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:45 pm

As much as I love Cell as a character overall, I also really didn't like the mystery of the character was thrown almost immediately away.

And, yeah, time travel is a goddamn mess in the Cell arc. If you think about it for more than 30 seconds, it makes not fucking sense. I tore into how sloppily the Cell arc uses time travel a plot device when I re-watched the anime and re-read the manga:
[spoiler]Now let’s talk about time travel. Long story short… this arc butchers this plot device…. horribly.

Let’s break it down.

(Future) Trunks warns that cyborgs #19 and #20 (yes, he says this in the manga) will be unleashed onto the world in three years and bring about the apocalypse. Fast forward three years, and that’s what happens in story. No problems so far. But shit gets confusing when (Future) Trunks travels back to three years after he first travelled back in time and after seeing the dismembered head of #19, he wonders what kind of cyborgs the cast are fighting as he doesn’t recognise the face of #19. Despite him being one of the very cyborgs (Future) Trunks previously mentioned were going to killing everyone and destroy the world. (Future) Trunks then hypothesizes that perhaps going back in time more than once changed history. And that makes no damn sense. Why? Because the story later states that when (Future) Trunks went back in time, he didn’t go back in time in his own timeline. He went back in time to a completely different timeline where any actions he has, regardless of how many times he goes back the past, has no effect on what happens to the future of his timeline. And yet (Future) Trunks’ future changes when it shouldn’t. And now instead of #19 and #20 causing the mayhem in his future, it’s #17 and #18. Hell, (Future) Trunks even provides a very detailed and accurate description of what cyborgs #17 and #18 look like. So (Future) Trunks timeline has his history radically altered when it shouldn’t have been changed in the slightest.

And then in comes Cell… who somehow manages to make the time travelling shenanigans even more confusing. He states he’s from a timeline when #17 and #18 don’t exist and were mostly like destroyed by (Future) Trunks, and that he killed the Trunks in his timeline, stole his time machine (which was already set to travel back to three years in the past) and went back to the past. None this make any sense for several reasons. How did the Trunks of that timeline mange to take care of the cyborgs of Cell’s timeline? But more importantly, as Piccolo hypothesised, why was Trunks in Cell’s timeline planning to go back to three years to the past and tell the main cast that he had destroyed the cyborgs in that timeline? It wouldn’t matter. Trunks would be travelling back to a completely different timeline. Anything he changes in Cell’s timeline wouldn’t have any effect on the timeline he travels back to the past to. The Cyborgs would still exist in that timeline. At least according the story’s own logic that what happens in one timeline wouldn’t affect what occurs in another timeline.

But then things get really fucked up with Cell expositional backstory in conjunction with what happens in the main story. Krillin and Trunks (in the main timeline) find Dr Gero’s secret basement, destroy his supercomputer, which is creating Cell, and kill Cell in his infant stage of growth. So what happened in the timeline that Cell comes from (who killed Trunks and stole time machine), where Trunks and Krillin destroy Dr Gero’s supercomputer and kill Cell while he’s still growing? How did that event not still happen in Cell’s timeline? Did history get altered again from Trunks travelling back in time on the second occasion? Well… that wouldn’t make much sense because the action of just traveling back in time, in Cell’s scenario, changes nothing as he still dies while he is growing in Gero’s secret basement in the main timeline. Why didn’t history get altered when Cell traveled back in time? Does changing the flow of events only happen when Trunks uses the time machine? But this begs an even larger and more important question… how does Cell exist? He came back in time one year before Trunks did in the first occasion Trunks traveled back in time because Cell needed the extra three years to stay beneath the Earth to evolve from an egg into his fully-grown bio-android self. So what event(s) lead to Cell’s timeline being created?

This is why a lot of stories don’t like having their foundations based on time travel because it’s a plot device that is incredibly easy to fuck up. And if you fuck it up, it can lead to the structure of the narrative crumbling. Inconsistencies can emerge, plot holes can be created, and continuity errors could unintentionally wreck your story. And unfortunately, this isn’t something that can be swept under the run as in the Cell arc, the concept of time travel is the driving force of the narrative. Because without time travel being implemented, the story can’t work. But the implementation of time travel is so inconsistent. The rules constantly change. History is altered when it shouldn’t be altered. Information passed on that turns out to false when it should be true. We’re presented with a scenario where just travelling back in time can alter not only the history on the original timeline, but can create a branching timeline where that history is altered in the same way in some parts as the original timeline is altered. And yet this rule is trampled on immediately when it’s later discovered that changing the past in one timeline wouldn’t alter the history of another timeline despite the fact that apparently all of the timelines ARE connected. Or do the timelines become separate entities after a while? The story falls apart instantly if you spend more than 60 seconds thinking about how time travel is incorporated in the Cell arc.

Am I making this whole situation more confusing than it appears to be at face value? Or it this just already really confusing, and my dissection of this is making me even more confused about it? Either way, it’s a clusterfuck. I have no fucking idea how time travel works in an arc where the initial centerpiece for the narrative evolving is based solely on time travel. And that’s a big fucking problem. Look, I love what Akira Toriyama has mostly done for Dragon Ball. But his writing is not infallible. In my opinion, his handling of time travel, in a narrative sense, was horrific.[/spoiler]

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:14 pm

As much as I don't like the arc much I do enjoy Cell himself, though I think that's mostly from anime-only scenes and enjoying him in the video games.

Time travel is one of the plot elements most likely to cause a story to collapse under itself, and that unfortunately happened here. When you make major story changes mid-writing--as happened here with the villain musical chairs going on--it's probably near inevitable.

I'd never really though about Cell's odd exposition dump, even in my recent re-read. I guess I'm just used to the series not usually running major mysteries about the enemy so not having one last didn't strike me like it probably should have.

The way Kami seems to have influenced "Piccolo" post-merger doesn't seem to get discussed much, at least that I've seen. I definitely feel like it softened his recklessness a lot.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by climatestrange » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Yet another great DBD video. I'm curious to see more of your analysis of Cell's character, particularly once he starts transforming. His first form always felt the most interesting to me. As you said, Toriyama somewhat ruined the mystery with the exposition dump, but even after that he still felt like a unique villain. He was a different kind of threat since he wasn't the most powerful character but he was able to get steadily get stronger by absorbing people and he could escape from the heroes due to his collection of techniques. It also fits with his creepy, bug-like appearance. He's a cockroach that's hard to kill and the longer you wait, the more problematic he becomes. It's too bad that he loses most of his unique qualities and motivations after he transforms.

Also, I think anyone who's seen your videos before knows you're going to shred Movie 6 :clap:

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:04 pm

I think giving away Cell’s mystery is a trap that many writers tend to fall into when it comes to conveying exposition. There’s a burning desire to finally get it all out, all the ideas and concepts you crafted in this instance the first chance you get. The problem is how some fail to see how it might ruin the mystery and suspense for the plot.

There’s a fear that if you don’t get the audience on the up and up sooner rather than later, you’re going to lose their interest. Worst part about it is how audiences really can be that impatient. It happens to all sorts of writers be they pantsers or plotters, a desire to show your work all in one go and a fear you might lose people with the lack of heavy information.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:34 pm

I also think that the Nameless Namek from this point is far more Kami than he is Piccolo. In particular, his whole demeanor in the Buu arc is pure Kami.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/20/18!)

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:41 pm

Cell as a whole is a character who was much creepier before he started transforming. By the time he reached his perfect form, he kind of just became a diet Freeza.

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