MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6054
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:32 am

matt0044 wrote:Did you ever talk about retconning or the like with how it turns out Goku's a Saiyan? I forget.
As DanielSSJ says, yeah, I did go over that at the beginning of the Saiyan Arc. I don't know if this is coincidence or not, but you happened to make that post right as I was discussing retcons on my Twitter. I had just watched DB Super episode 67 and (to avoid spoilers, just in case) referred to something regarding the Potara as a retcon and had to get into a big debate over what a retcon is.

So, honestly, I'm wondering if I shouldn't just do a video on the subject of retcons.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/1/24!)
Current Episode: A Match Made in Hell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 2

User avatar
DanielSSJ
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:13 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:46 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:As DanielSSJ says, yeah, I did go over that at the beginning of the Saiyan Arc. I don't know if this is coincidence or not, but you happened to make that post right as I was discussing retcons on my Twitter. I had just watched DB Super episode 67 and (to avoid spoilers, just in case) referred to something regarding the Potara as a retcon and had to get into a big debate over what a retcon is.

So, honestly, I'm wondering if I shouldn't just do a video on the subject of retcons.
I'd watch it.
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/1

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Noah wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:DBD: The Saiyan Arc Part 7!
So... I've been watching your videos since I got back reading the manga in that part. You said Piccolo lost his lost his usefulness in this very arc, really? You thought he was
dispensable in Freeza and Cell arcs?
Oh, yes. Definitely. As I set up in the most recent video with the line "This had better be worth it" in regards to Nail only existing as a power-up for Piccolo, the answer to that statement is "It's not". Piccolo has nothing to do with the story and contributes next to nothing. The few things he does "accomplish" would have been better served being handed over to the characters the arc is actually about rather than forcing him into the story. And, really, none of those things couldn't have been done by somebody else. He's given this enormous build-up only for the result to fall flaccid in his hands.

The Cell Arc has him be a little more integral to the plot, but it still suffers from giving him a huge power-up that really amounts to nothing.
If given the chance to rewrite the arc, how would you change Piccolos role?

I don't think there was really much to do with him on Namek in the first place. Even Goku himself feels superfluous, despite beating the big bad.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:07 pm

This is probably the best defense I've seen of Vegeta's choice to goad Freeza but I do think you could have gone more into it. For one thing, Vegeta has no idea Freeza has multiple forms and there's no precedent set for a character having them, Saiyan's have one (as far as Vegeta knows at the time, Super Saiyan is merely a powerful Saiyan and not a transformation) and Zarbon had only one as well. In fact, no one there knows Freeza has more forms until Piccolo takes off his weighted clothing.

His estimate of Freeza's hypothetical power is also sound once you use Zarbon again. Vegeta was already stated to being stronger than Zarbon and Dodoria at 24,000 when he landed on Namek, then when fighting the Ginyu's, his power goes over 30k, meaning that Zarbon didn't even double his strength when he transformed. It's highly likely that Vegeta expected a similar increase for Freeza. Instead of being at half a million, he'd go to 600-700k at best and cap off there.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

matt0044
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/25/1

Post by matt0044 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:27 am

Kid Buu wrote: I don't think there was really much to do with him on Namek in the first place.
I suppose the most he did was give Freeza a beating that necessitated him to go onto his third form and buy Goku time for the Spirit Bomb. Even then, that's... not much.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Yeah.

3rd form Freeza looked cool but just felt redundant.

In fact I think overall Piccolo role on Namek just makes him look wrose because he keeps fucking up.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

matt0044
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by matt0044 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:37 pm

Your words on Worldbuilding in your Freeza Saga video really put into words what I couldn't in regards to the shows and movies that I really love, particularly when it's in service to the characters developing and not overtaking it.

It's one of the reasons why I still love Steven Universe where we don't get bogged down by so much exposition but rather character pieces that reveal bits of lore. Hell, I think it's something other Manga and Anime could learn from.

User avatar
coola
I Live Here
Posts: 3362
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
Location: Poland

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by coola » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:36 pm

Dissection of Bardock Special :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME8HCK4hZG8 For me personally, it is perfect definition of "ruin the character by sequels/prequels", Toriyama said he wouldn't come up with character like that, with is sad he went on his way, and decide to ruin him by mellowing him. Maybe he and Toei were using Funimation version of Bardock as inspiration?
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by Doctor. » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:23 pm

I think the whole "visions of the future" plot point does not need to be in the special. It does nothing to help the plot besides making Bardock care slightly more about Goku and help him deduce what Freeza's real plan was, both of which could have happened with other means. It also brings unnecessary destiny themes into the series, which is something that constantly grinds my gears. Bardock seeing the battle between Goku and Freeza makes it seem like it was predetermined that Goku would get so far and, thus, a certain part of his effort is negated as a result.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6054
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:31 pm

DBD: The Bardock Special

Here's my official post on the subject. Sorry it took so long. Geekdom101 was awesome enough to take me out to lunch for my birthday today!
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/1/24!)
Current Episode: A Match Made in Hell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 2

User avatar
Gog
I Live Here
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:33 am
Location: Dio's World.

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by Gog » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:41 pm

I eagerly await for you to tear into the fresh carcass of Episode Of Bardock. Any way, you do have a point Bardock having a powerlevel of ten thousand was far more than he had any right to be, honestly he should have been less than Raditz in strength.

Also it's Saiyan, not human, but if were going to get technical here, than yes a Saiyan is technically a human. But still... Anyway I do agree with you on the point that this should have definitely been longer in length, possibly an hour or two. And you do have a point Raditz would have been incredibly forced if he was in the movie.

Good dissection as usual though.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:07 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:DBD: The Bardock Special

Here's my official post on the subject. Sorry it took so long. Geekdom101 was awesome enough to take me out to lunch for my birthday today!
Could've gone without the first 6-8 minutes tbh. Anyway:

1. I agree that probably the best part about the special is how futile Bardock's last stand really was. Him being there literally made no difference. Freeza flicked his finger the exact same way he would have if Bardock wasn't there at all. And Freeza himself, for a brief moment in the manga, is the only one that even remembered Bardock existed. I like protagonists who put their best effort into chasing a fruitless goal.*

*Though my favorite variation of this is a protagonist who did something so terrible that they think that they can never possibly make up for it, but tries anyway. This definitely is not Bardock. Vegeta was kinda like that for the few chapters around his second death.

2. That said, I wish they didn't make Bardock so strong- they stated him to have a battle power of 10,000 which would make him considerably stronger than Nappa, a saiyan noble, and he demonstrates this by slaughtering the elite Freeza soldiers who themselves effortlessly slaughtered his team. I don't think you can dismiss it as a throwaway line either. Not only does he bulldoze through low-class grunts and survive one of Dodoria's attacks (albeit barely), but Zarbon specifically mentions how quickly Bardock and co have powered up when telling Freeza why the saiyans are dangerous.

Oh yeah, and it was Zarbon who suggested destroying the saiyans, not Freeza. Thought that was kind of cool. No one remembers him, even the fans don't remember him, all thinking that Freeza made this observation alone.

3. Bardock was indeed a very good villain protagonist. Probably the most unique character the franchise ever had. Toriyama said that the Bardock special is a story that he never could have written; it shows.

4. I disagree that Nozawa should've voiced Bardock. Her voice is utterly unfitting to the character.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

matt0044
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by matt0044 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:39 am

coola wrote:Maybe he and Toei were using Funimation version of Bardock as inspiration?
I'm surprised that MF never mentioned how dub altered Bardock to be one of the pitfalls that he mentioned.

User avatar
DanielSSJ
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:13 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:45 am

matt0044 wrote:I'm surprised that MF never mentioned how dub altered Bardock to be one of the pitfalls that he mentioned.
As he said at the beginning of DBD, he's mainly gonna focus on the Japanese side of things. Though I think I caught a subtle jab at how the dub tried to make Bardock have a heel face turn in order to make him more sympathetic.
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)

Saikyo no Senshi
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:08 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:56 am

Great dissection as always. Absolutely agreed on why Nozawa Masako was chosen for Bardock. The familiar feel was necessary in order for the viewers to connect and I for one loved her performance. It had the nuance that made the character memorable.

I didn't care about the battle power thing, but I can see your point. The special overall had a good script, good acting, good music, but in the animation department it was meh. Nothing bad, but nothing great either. That is where it loses some marks for me.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:34 am

Yeah, I wont lie....even after watching every episode of Z in Japanese, Nozawa as Bardock caught me off-guard too. Would have preferred if they got Raditz's actor (Shigeru Chiba) but it isn't too big of a deal for me.

According to Toriyama getting stronger makes you go up the caste system, so I guess Bardock wasn't a low class Saiyan when he died. :lol:

Also happy birthday.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6054
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:20 pm

Doctor. wrote:I think the whole "visions of the future" plot point does not need to be in the special. It does nothing to help the plot besides making Bardock care slightly more about Goku and help him deduce what Freeza's real plan was, both of which could have happened with other means. It also brings unnecessary destiny themes into the series, which is something that constantly grinds my gears. Bardock seeing the battle between Goku and Freeza makes it seem like it was predetermined that Goku would get so far and, thus, a certain part of his effort is negated as a result.
It is a point I thought about in the writing process, and I almost addressed it, but I ultimately didn't have much to say about it, and the video already had enough content anyway. Ultimately, I decided that, while it could have been implemented better, it is still a necessary component to create the tone of the story. It creates a sense of dread, not just for the audience, who already know what's going to happen, but for the character. It makes it much more eerie than it would otherwise be. So I agree with you, but I still think it's an overall positive addition.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:I didn't care about the battle power thing, but I can see your point. The special overall had a good script, good acting, good music, but in the animation department it was meh. Nothing bad, but nothing great either. That is where it loses some marks for me.
Seeing the responses in the comments thread, I must conclude that either battle power fans are voracious to jump onto these types of discussions, or I probably just didn't make the point clear enough. But it's less about the battle power itself and whether or not it can be justified, but more about how it impacts the story and keeps it from falling into those prequel fanservice traps I discuss. I feel that making Bardock the second-strongest Saiyan really undermines his plight as a low-level nobody just trying to survive. And if the cringeworthy premise of Goku's father of all people getting psychic powers and being the only Saiyan to stand against Freeza is smoothed over by his complete failure and erasure from history, then him being second only to Vegeta seriously threatens to topple that precarious position. Then again, it's small potatoes compared to what Episode of Bardock does to him, but that's definitely part of the reason I wanted to make those comparisons are clear as possible.

But for some reason, everyone in the comments section is only interested in the "Zenkais" and whether or not it's plausible when that's really what I was least interested in. :P
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/1/24!)
Current Episode: A Match Made in Hell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 2

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Kid Buu wrote:Yeah, I wont lie....even after watching every episode of Z in Japanese, Nozawa as Bardock caught me off-guard too. Would have preferred if they got Raditz's actor (Shigeru Chiba) but it isn't too big of a deal for me.

According to Toriyama getting stronger makes you go up the caste system, so I guess Bardock wasn't a low class Saiyan when he died. :lol:

Also happy birthday.
I think it's apparent that Raditz, with his 6'3 frame, odd hair, and deep, manly voice, isn't actually related to Goku/Bardock/Goten/the rest.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/7/17!)

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:34 pm

He could be adopted, or even a half-brother. I mean I would be really survived if Saiyans have love marriages and commit.

Oh wait, doesn't DB Minus contradict this? Can't remember that thing at all. :lol:
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/31/16!)

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:21 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Doctor. wrote:I think the whole "visions of the future" plot point does not need to be in the special. It does nothing to help the plot besides making Bardock care slightly more about Goku and help him deduce what Freeza's real plan was, both of which could have happened with other means. It also brings unnecessary destiny themes into the series, which is something that constantly grinds my gears. Bardock seeing the battle between Goku and Freeza makes it seem like it was predetermined that Goku would get so far and, thus, a certain part of his effort is negated as a result.
It is a point I thought about in the writing process, and I almost addressed it, but I ultimately didn't have much to say about it, and the video already had enough content anyway. Ultimately, I decided that, while it could have been implemented better, it is still a necessary component to create the tone of the story. It creates a sense of dread, not just for the audience, who already know what's going to happen, but for the character. It makes it much more eerie than it would otherwise be. So I agree with you, but I still think it's an overall positive addition.
I think it's a very positive addition. It adds to the horror and taunting of the final "gift" from the Kanassan. Just seeing your planet blow up over and over again, and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's haunting to see such mass genocide, and in a way it was the Kannassan getting his last laugh before dying. Knowing his killers were going to die a horrible death of their own. Though it also gave Bardock some hope that his son would finish this, which was kinda like a little consolation.

Of course the special is really great as for Bardock, he's basically just a small fish in a big pond. Something that was forgotten with all the Bardock wanking that's been going around as of late. His whole point was he was a powerless nobody. He's not meant to be some uber badass super powerful warrior (*COUGH* EOB *COUGH*), he's a loser. He's a pawn who to tried to fight against impossible odds. Never having a chance because he was nothing special. Nothing special is the point. Yet for some reason people want him to be this special snowflake? Honestly the more special he is, the more it affects Goku's accomplishments from going from a nobody into a somebody.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

Post Reply