MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Post by The gr » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:46 pm

I loved the joke of Superman & the white mage.I Never had a problem with goku healing freeza, probably because this is the same saga where Goku suddenly can read minds
    I agree with the finale being a mess along with the ending being rushed, dang this was one long tennis match with freeza and foes, Even that out of the way, the beginning like you mention was really fun & Vegeta was used really well here and freeza was really intimidating before he fought Vegeta
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by Regarder » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:57 am

      The bigger issue than ki healing coming out of nowhere is that it would be incredibly useful in loads of other situations where it is never used, instead making it a lazy plot device. It serves a narrative purpose in that it allows the moral about Frieza's hubris to come to fruition, but it's poorly written because it's a power that would have been very useful throughout the series but is only introduced to service that scene and isn't really used in any significant way again even though it's kind of a game changer.

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by caejones » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:18 am

      All these Namek and Freeza shenanigans have put a bunch of silly ideas in my head:
      Goku is a Megazord in this arc. The reason Megazords work is because they are piloted by a team of the actual protagonists. While I'm not suggesting that Kuririn and Gohan ride around on Goku's shoulders and pilot him to defeat Freeza, this arc really builds toward that whole Power of Friendship™ heart of the cards Shounen Spirit™ type of resolution,.
      Like, Kuririn is totally a candidate for the driving arc on the heros' side. He's a good guy, and (usually) on the pragmatic side, but he understandably has a huge problem with Vegeta. I mean, Vegeta did have all of his friends killed and marily slaughtered countless innocents. But twice we see Kuririn try to backstab Vegeta, and both times, an impossibly powerful enemy immediately appears and wipes out 99% of his HP in a single attack. This also contributes to the failure of the first round of wishes. Like, they're a sentence away from total victory, but since Kuririn decided to (quite rationally, mind) hide the plan from Vegeta, it fails spectacularly.
      Clearly, Kuririn needed to pull a Gohan or something. Maybe, instead of bringing Piccolo to Namek, Kuririn has to convince Dende to heal Vegeta? I dunno; it just seems like there's this subtle build toward Kuririn having to do something that involves being unnecessarily kind to an enemy. It's like fate was whispering in his ear "see that 5-year-old? Be more like him." And he ignored it because he's not an idiot, but eventually..." And this could sorta-kinda help set up how he treats the Jinzourtificyboroids later?

      Also, there was totally something for Bluma to do this arc, and I'm perplexed that I didn't think of it until watching Dragonball Dissection. The anime could have used it as a source for filler with stakes and a sense of progress, instead of being an unapologetic waste of time. What's the first thing she does in this arc? Blow up Nappa's ship while trying to remotely hijack it. Where does her role in the arc suddenly end? When Freeza's mooks blow up the ship they arrived in. Is she just sitting there hoping that Goku will bring a ship they can all fit in comfortably for the week it takes to get from Namek to Earth? How do these ships even run, seeing as they apparently don't need fuel of any kind? She's an engineer whose primary example is the president of the most successful tech company in the Dragonworld, and she's just shrugging in the face of being stranded on an alien world without vaccinations and assuming Goku will fix it? HIJACK ONE OF THE MANY SPACESHIPS ON THE PLANET! Surely someone's tried this sort of thing before, so it won't be a quick and easy operation, but so far as everyone knows up until the mass exodus wish, It's a goal of great value and increasing urgency.

      I might have gotten a little carried away, there. Still, I like how DBD is helping me think about the series from different angles.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by matt0044 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:22 pm

      Regarder wrote:The bigger issue than ki healing coming out of nowhere is that it would be incredibly useful in loads of other situations where it is never used, instead making it a lazy plot device. It serves a narrative purpose in that it allows the moral about Frieza's hubris to come to fruition, but it's poorly written because it's a power that would have been very useful throughout the series but is only introduced to service that scene and isn't really used in any significant way again even though it's kind of a game changer.
      I think that, in this case, we're suppose to believe that Freeza has more strength to endure his dismemberment and has time to get away to potentially get help. You can argue that it's headscratching in that it's not elaborated by the text itself more, like Goku saying, "It might not stop you from dying but you might be able to get help if you go now." That would've at least clarified that it would be a temporary solution.

      I mean, I can imagine Krillin or Piccolo sharing Ki with Goku when he gave himself up to defeat Raditz... but I think it was too late by the time either of them got to him then. There's also the fact that some deaths are instantaneous and without anybody nearby to help in time with their own Ki or Senzu, well, you're outta luck.

      I think it would've worked also if Freeza was shown managing to endure his dismemberment with whatever Ki he could cling too. I mean, he's a powerful dude already so... why not?

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:41 am

      Scattershot response:

      Was going to say ya'll fucked up with this one, but ... you didn't. You just seem focused on different things than I am each time I revisit it.

      You pre-emptively addressed my response that Freeza's biology makes him uniquely capable of putting Goku's energy to use in his dismembered state, but ... right, if it wasn't a mortal injury to begin with, why is he down for the count? I suppose the sheer shock of the attack could have wiped him of his ki, but it's a flimsy explanation for a flimsy fictional mechanic.

      Is it poorly written though? I don't know. I'm too sold on the emotion and execution of that scene to bother looking further. I think that's centrally, philosophically, where we part ways on the end of this arc. That, and Dragon Ball has earned itself some seeeeerious leniency in terms of logical consistency.

      Goku's characterization here does switch back and forth, but that's never bothered me. He's vengeful, at first (wanting to stop Freeza from reaching full power), but increasingly, and I think consistently, intrigued instead as the fight goes on. Hence his allowing Freeza to power-up when he finally sees him start doing it, hence his insistence on leaving the fight when its challenge has evaporated, hence his telling Freeza to stay down, even though he made the natural decision in the heat of battle to try to turn Freeza's attack against him just moments before.

      This will be Goku's character from now on, as previous events have hinted it would be--a compassionate warrior whose ennui leads him to momentary recklessness over and over again. Both sides come out during the fight, but never, I think, in distractingly contradictory ways. You also glossed over The Best PanelTM (though it showed up on screen for a second), but if only for that moment alone, I rather love how Goku's handled in this fight.

      Kuririn, Bulma and Gohan's arcs petering out? I agree that it's a shortcoming, and it's one of the reasons I've never felt fully on board with the idea that the Namek arc would be a perfect ending as is. The middle section of the arc in which it transitions from being those characters' stories to Goku's has always been the least engaging to me, and compared to the beginning and ends of the story line it's a portion I have little love for.

      You're right about the remains vs. souls bit, and several of the other plot-level cheats (though by way of a No-Prize explanation, perhaps Earth's God facilitated the Great Elder's passage to the afterlife upon his second death), but I just can't be too fussed with them. I love the cat-and-mouse games and dire tone that mark the beginning of the arc. I love the constant-climax and emotional character-beats of its end, even if they feel removed form its starting point. (And in some ways, that "How did we get here?" joy is also one of Toriyama's appeals.)

      If I were to get serious about mapping out the series, the Namek arc as a whole would probably be my second favorite. At least in the manga. Holy hell is the anime version awful.

      The point about not being able to identify with the action as much during the Super Saiyan portion of the fight is well-taken, but I do want to credit the beginning of the Goku vs. Freeza battle as being the last time the series manages to visually convince me of a sense of escalation until the more bizarre techniques begin to crop up in the Boo arc. And if only for length and a sense of the stakes, I do buy a sense of exhaustion at its end.

      I'm quite okay with the speedy resolution of the wishes (No-Prize answer for the Namekians' relocation, by the way: "Bring us to a planet that resembles Namek"), but that's partially because I've only ever read it as part of a tankobon, where I could follow from its ending chapter straight into the next. It's hard to say how I'd feel about it with the more pronounced stop of a weekly schedule, given its non-ending there.

      I'm on board with the idea that it's hardest to hand-wave inconsistencies and inaccuracies when the story is at its most dead-facedly serious (or, ugh, if only that were the case, given what lies just ahead), but I'm happy enough to do so given the high highs of this arc.

      Toriyama's art is also incredible throughout.
      Last edited by Cipher on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:05 pm

      Cipher wrote: This will be Goku's character from now on, as previous events have hinted it would be--a compassionate warrior whose ennui leads him to momentary recklessness over and over again. Both sides come out during the fight, but never, I think, in distractingly contradictory ways. You also glossed over The Best PanelTM (though it showed up on screen for a second), but if only for that moment alone, I rather love how Goku's handled in this fight.
      I loved this whole post, just so you know, but this is in particular is something I wanted to address because it's fascinated me. I've seen you bat around the "Goku ennui" development in other threads before. And I think it's a fantastic theory. I just don't really get the impression that it's ever a deliberate move on Toriyama's part. I think it's the most logical rationalization, but I can't really give it any more credence than that of a fan theory, even if it's one I am personally impressed by. Maybe you're a "death of the author" kind of interpreter, which is fine. But while I can and do give the story credit for certain moments of serendipitous genius, I find it hard to give it credit for something that I feel would fall on its face if not for this rationalization. But I'd love to hear more. Do you feel this is your interpretation, or do you think there really is evidence in the text to support it?
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

      Post by Cipher » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:20 pm

      Can't elaborate much at the moment (waiting for classes to start at work), and I don't have a copy of the manga on hand, but yes, I feel it's intentional to some degree and that there's a massive amount of evidence throughout the Cell and Boo arcs. It's come up heavily again in the current Super arc, and was what let Oob work as an ending. For what it's worth, the 2008 JUMP special, which is maybe the best non-Toriyama piece of Dragon Ball writing, trades on it too.

      Even without reading too deeply into things, I don't think it's even subtext that Goku is massively uninterested in normal life and that his kicks increasingly depend on challenges that more and more regularly come in the form of unprecedentedly powerful supervillains.

      But also at the end of the day the text is the text, and whatever Toriyama was consciously thinking while writing it, or unconsciously thinking just as a natural fly-by-night storyteller, I feel Goku's arc coheres.

      As a whole anyway. In serialization? Maybe I'd feel differently without foreknowledge, and taking chapters or arcs of this series on their own is certainly a viable lens. It's one I've never really applied, so I can't speak to how it might show individual storylines in a different, possibly less forgiving, light.

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:26 am

      DBD TV: The 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai

      This is one of the most interesting episodes I've had to work on, which surprised me because I thought it would be pretty cut and dried when I first sat down to do it. Unlike the 22nd Budoukai, which went really out there in coming up with off-the-wall filler material and restructuring, this arc is about as straightforward as they come. But in researching the elements behind the Wedding Dress stuff at the end as well as realizing that Torishima's Forbes interview didn't just apply to Dragon Ball Z specifically but this arc in particular, it made this one very fascinating. Let me know what you think!
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      Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

      I never realized how convoluted this arc was compared to most other OG Dragon Ball arcs until I watched this. It makes the "Future" Trunks arc from DBS look cute :lol:
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by Kid Buu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:06 pm

      I never had a problem with Adult Goku's voice, neither do I think it it is the same as his voice from when he is a kid. The only time I found a bit strange is the Bardock film, since I initially thought he'd sound more like Raditz.

      I guess it just odd to people since I can't really think of many cases of a woman voicing adult male characters, even in anime.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:21 pm

      I will be honest, when I was first getting into Dragon Ball, Masako Nozawa's portrayal of adult Goku was kind of a turnoff for me (It is worth noting that I experienced the first third of the story through illicit manga scans before switching to the anime partway into the Freeza arc.) I'm not even sure when and how I grew to like it. Maybe just through the sheer exposure? Maybe because of my ever growing dislike of the dub? Either way, while I think Sean Schemmel does a decent job of it in Kai and the new movies (I haven't watched much of Super, dub or otherwise), Nozawa's Goku has really grown on me and she is pretty much the definitive Goku in my mind, regardless of his age.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by MarCas92 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 pm

      “MasakoX is doing a video everyday on DB Heroes 25 vids+” Cool I guess.
      “TFS is doing DBcember on the DB Video Games and a special thats 13+ Videos” That’ll be interesting.

      MistrareFusion is releasing 3-5 DBD videos this month” REAL SHIT?!?!? :o
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/30/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:17 am

      The Secret of the "Z" - DBD TV: The Saiyan Arc Part 1

      Dragon Ball Dissection December begins again! And all I can say is thank goodness for that Forbes interview with Toriyama's editor. It's nice to finally know why that whole "Dragon Ball Z" thing happened. So, naturally, I discuss that, actual changes I feel were made between the two shows, and, of course, start my look at what filler elements came into the proceedings. I hope you enjoy! Let me know what you think!
      MarCas92 wrote:“MasakoX is doing a video everyday on DB Heroes 25 vids+” Cool I guess.
      “TFS is doing DBcember on the DB Video Games and a special thats 13+ Videos” That’ll be interesting.

      MistrareFusion is releasing 3-5 DBD videos this month” REAL SHIT?!?!? :o
      Dawh, shucks. That's very kind. I'm flattered to even be mentioned in the same breath as them, honestly.
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      MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
      Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/17!)

      Post by FoolsGil » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:35 am

      Color blind huh? The Trunks hair debate must have been super annoying, I'm sure.

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:42 am

      FoolsGil wrote:Color blind huh? The Trunks hair debate must have been super annoying, I'm sure.
      The Trunks hair thing did actually annoy me, and I did notice it. But I don't know if I would have been annoyed by it or even noticed it at all if they hadn't had a purple-haired Trunks standing right next to him the whole flipping time! That's what made it infuriating for me. An inconsistency is one thing, but calling attention to it like that is maddening. It would be like if The Cell Arc constantly had people making references to Dr. Gero creating the Artificial Humans, except that Dr. Frappe is there the whole time as a major character, but nobody acknowledges him at all!
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      Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/17!)

      Post by MarCas92 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:07 pm

      I agree, I love the Gohan filler. It’s something that should’ve been in the manga. However I hate how long and repetitive it is. Gohan goes Oozaru twice, and fails to save a new friend twice. After a while it just gets draining. The pay off at the end is totally worth it though imo. I’m assuming you’re gonna go into Gokus otherworld shenanigans next episode and start talking about all the inconsistencies regarding that Saiyan Space Pod.

      Minor note: I love how much the video quality has improved. Ever since getting the new computer the editing keeps getting better and better.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:19 am

      Gohan's Big Adventure - DBD TV: The Saiyan Arc Part 2

      My look at the animated Saiyan Arc comes to a close, but there's still plenty of Dragon Ball Dissection December on the way! Let me know what you think. And while I'm sure I can't be the first person in the world to notice this, I did find a filler plot hole I swear I've personally never seen anyone bring up before. I only just noticed it myself!
      MarCas92 wrote:I agree, I love the Gohan filler. It’s something that should’ve been in the manga. However I hate how long and repetitive it is. Gohan goes Oozaru twice, and fails to save a new friend twice. After a while it just gets draining. The pay off at the end is totally worth it though imo. I’m assuming you’re gonna go into Gokus otherworld shenanigans next episode and start talking about all the inconsistencies regarding that Saiyan Space Pod.

      Minor note: I love how much the video quality has improved. Ever since getting the new computer the editing keeps getting better and better.
      Well, in that case, I think you'll like this installment. And thank you for the comment about the quality. I'm hard at work trying something new for the opening to the Cell Arc. I hope you enjoy it.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/17!)

      Post by coola » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:17 pm

      Just watched newest videos, wow, i had no idea about Torishima, it kinda reminds me of Naoko Takeuchi not being fan of old Sailor Moon anime, especially Stars. As for Piccolo Jr. part being part of Z, video games thought that too, some games from SNES era had Piccolo Jr. arc included at beginning (Super Goku Den 2, Super Butouden 1) As for Pendulum Room, they could make one more episode, where they defeat fake Saiyans, not only it would make their confidence more beliveable, but give them one last victory.
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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/17!)

      Post by Gray Riders » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:30 pm

      Piccolo blowing up Goku's ship is one of my favourite anime-added plot holes for some reason.

      I rather liked the bit of extra backstory for the Saiyans and their war for control of Vegeta. I actually think I remember way back in the old days of the internet some people thought Freeza was the god of planet Vegeta to explain the inconsistency.

      I am darkly eager for the next video. I really dislike the Cell arc for numerous reasons, and Dissection's coverage of it could either make me reconsider my harsh views of it or give more fuel for the furnace of hate. Either way it'll be good!

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      Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/17!)

      Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:28 pm

      Gray Riders wrote:I am darkly eager for the next video. I really dislike the Cell arc for numerous reasons, and Dissection's coverage of it could either make me reconsider my harsh views of it or give more fuel for the furnace of hate. Either way it'll be good!
      Well, here's hoping I can somehow manage to do both, as there are things I love about the Cell Arc and things I find absolutely asinine!
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      MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
      Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

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