MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by Regarder » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:59 pm

FoolsGil wrote: On to the video, Gaffer, I wish you talked a little bit about how weird Tenshinhan's Kikoho a bit more. If it could stop Cell in its tracks, which is still weaker than Super Vegeta and Super Trunks, but is quite the leap for someone who can't beat a basic Super Saiyan in a straight fight, then surely the attack could have severely wounded if not killed any of the Androids.
At least that's true if we say the ability of the attack to overpower Cell's flying scales more or less linearly with the ability to break through an opponent's ki defense and actually damage their body; that's intuitive, but it doesn't logically have to be the case. If it's not true then the only thing that would have happened is that the Androids would have found themselves even less able to push through it using the basic flying move, but not particularly any more harmed than Cell was.

One thing that gets me about that scene is how distracted Cell was, because if he was really thinking straight he could have overpowered the Kikoho easily by launching a blast upwards at him instead of constantly trying to get away just by flying. Maybe Cell is stubborn.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:07 pm

Personally I never had a problem with Bulma being able to fly to God's Palace with a rocket, because I figured that when Karin said that a rocket would be repelled, he meant that either God or Mr. Popo would manually defend the Temple by shooting intruders down with ki. God no longer exists and Mr. Popo knows that Bulma is an ally, so he has no reason to bar her entry.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:50 pm

The absolute waste of Piccolo merging with Kam by having him be fodder to Cell is something I will never forgive. The story played it up as a such a huge deal, and for a brief moment in time, Piccolo was the strongest character in the plot. And the payoff to that... he gives foolishly gives off the location of where the artificial humans are, his battle with #17 gets interrupted, he gets blasted in chest by Cell and nearly dies. What a goddamn waste of time Piccolo fusing with Kami was. It might as well of never happened. Piccolo may have just been better off training in the ROSAT instead.
I ranted about this in my personal assessment of Dragon Ball Z:
Piccolo’s scenario with fusing with Kami is probably the most tragic of all in the entire arc. The story gave the impression that him fusing with Kami was a huge moment for his placing in the power hierarchy and how this would affect his character. Which is why I presume that whole “When do you think I became your friend? I’m a demon!! I’m merely using you to take over the world!!” bullshit happened.

After Piccolo fuses with Kami, he skirmishes with Cell and only "loses" because Cell get the slip on him with some trickery, and even "outsmarts" Cell to get some information out of him. Then Piccolo faces #17 and it’s downhill from there. His fight with #17 is boring and ends quickly in an stalemate that doesn’t get a proper conclusion as Cell strolls back into the plot breaks Piccolo’s neck with one punch and nearly kills him with a blast to the chest at point blank range.

All that build-up of Piccolo fusing with Kami and nothing fundamentally changes about Piccolo and his immense power-up is quickly swept under the rug. And just to twist the knife a little, the moment that lead to Piccolo getting curb stomped in battle, was all down to a moment of uncharacteristic foolishness, with Piccolo pointlessly powering up before he fight’s #17 even though he didn’t need to, knew that Cell can sense energy and knew that Cell was looking to absorb the artificial humans to become much stronger. But then again, Piccolo is stranger to doing stupid shit for the sake of it, like when he wished to go to Namek.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:15 pm

Surprised no joke about Rafael Nadal, aka the Dragon Ball of tennis. Speaking of, I guess you could equate the Freeza and Super Buu battles to tennis matches too.

I'm still of the head canon that Toriyama brought back Second Form Cell to kill off the main character as a fuck you to everyone who hated that form.

Honestly, regarding romance in the series, I thought Gohan/Videl was handled well until she pulled a Felicity.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by matt0044 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:42 am

I always felt the Tennis thing wasn't exactly a bad thing for fans overall mostly because, well, Tennis isn't exactly a bad sport. I'm not a regular watcher but there's something to be said about how a player's gotta be on their toes to match their foe blow for blow or it's all over. For Dragon Ball Z, it also had the Anime showing these battles in motion. Padded out as they are, there's something about them that gets people pumped and hoping that the good guys prevail.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by zDBZ » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:50 am

Another reason the whole tennis thing might not have bothered people is because of something Gaffer Tape mentioned in the Freeza videos: in serialization, not knowing where things are going, it's exciting to read and/or watch. And, seeing this the first time, it's not a given that any of these character power-ups that get countered are going to be useless. Look at the Saiyan saga: Gohan's hidden power was built up as (one of the) thing that could beat the saiyans. By the time we're in the middle of the fight, that starts to look like a red herring, the same as the earthlings' training. It turns out, however, that that's the thing that delivers the finishing blow to Vegeta, in the unexpected form of the oozaru state. And Goku's Spirit Bomb technique looks like it's going to be a dud at one point to, then turns out not to be, then turns out to kind-of be after all. So there's reason to have some suspense and hold out some hope when taking the story in for the first time.

On repeat viewings, I can't say the tennis issue bothers me in either the Cell or Freeza sagas. It's still fun to watch the escalation play out, and I wouldn't discount the strength of certain story elements either. The build-up to Piccolo and Kami reuniting, and how that moment itself is executed, is extremely well-done. And, while Piccolo's had something of a leadership role prior to that point in the story anyway, I like seeing that carry through after he assimilates Kami. Is it frustrating that this story element doesn't end up making any appreciable difference to the fight against Cell except to tip him off where the androids are? Yes; I'm not denying that that's a major flaw in the story. But somehow, that doesn't take away from the strength of that character arc itself. Piccolo's redemption from his demon past was essentially complete at this point, so reuniting with Kami wasn't necessary, but it made for a nice cap on things. In a way, it's a shame that that couldn't have happened at the tail end of the Freeza saga, without any villain to motivate it.

Ultimately, in both the Freeza and Cell sagas, the Super Saiyan concept is what makes a lot of this palatable to me when taking a critical eye to the narrative. Dragon Ball operates as much more of an ensemble cast than the adventures of Goku from the Saiyan saga on, and it does get frustrating at times that members of that ensemble don't get more to do at key crucial moments. But in the Freeza saga, the legend of the Super Saiyan - and Freeza's fear of the saiyan race in general - is set up early enough that it's baked into the narrative that things will come down to Freeza vs. Goku, with the Super Saiyan legend in play. The idea of surpassing the Super Saiyan form isn't introduced as organically in the Cell saga, but it does come up when a lot of things are in play: Piccolo's technically the strongest fighter they have, Cell's gradually gaining strength, and the androids are still gunning for Goku. When the others come up short or pan out to their logical conclusion, that leaves the "go beyond Super Saiyan," as done by Goku and Gohan, as the one thing left in play, and its culmination in Gohan's SS2 transformation makes the story work IMO.

In the Buu saga, on the other hand...

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:55 am

I think the Freeza saga is worst at hand. Instant he says he has a 4th form, the 3rd form just feels pointless.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:12 am

Strangled by the Formula - Dragon Ball Dissection: Extreme Battle!! The Three Great Super Saiyans

Next on Dragon Ball Dissection December, we look at the seventh Dragon Ball Z movie. It's difficult for any series to sustain seven movies. Does this film reinvigorate the franchise? Or does it flounder in the search for new ideas? Hint: the villain wears a trucker hat.

Sorry if I haven't been very active in this thread beyond just posting the links. Hopefully I can slow down once I've finished the last two videos for the month. ^_^
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MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/1/24!)
Current Episode: A Match Made in Hell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 2

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by coola » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:54 am

"Where is my trucker hat?" Movie :)

Personally, i enjoyed this movie, but i agree, everyone that was not 3 Super Saiyans was shoved in just for one part, also, it is pretty funny they made 3 SSJ appear such big deal, but honestly, they didnt far that much worse as non SSJ, power levels are BS :). I havent watched English dub, but i heard they gave 13 more personality there.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:13 am

If you were to look up the definition of "banal" in the dictionary, "Extreme Battle! The Three Great Super Saiyans" would be seen as an example of that word. This movie phones it in hardcore.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:15 pm

Yeah whenever I hear that for some reason the next movie is the awful and the antagonist is the worst thing ever, I think of this movie. Like. It's so bad even the dub is an actual slight improvement. I mean by making generic 13 into Trucker 13, but that's still an improvement. Teamfourstar also pretty much made the only worthwhile version to watch. Even the fights which can be kinda cool....basically lack tension because you're thinking the whole damn time "Super Saiyan...use it..." So our heroes look stupid by just getting the crap kicked out of them til they decide, ok that's enough.

Chi Chi is her absolute worst probably in this film. Gohan has literally one role, and it's to be saved by Piccolo...that's it. Krillin's role sucks, but he does have a role. Which is unfortunately pure comedy relief....even if it's a tired gag. I honestly can't fathom how when it comes to worst antagonists and worst movies, for some reason this one isn't on the mind. Which goes to show with popularity comes hatred.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:51 pm

I like the arctic scenery in this film. In fact I'd say the movies have better scenery than the comic. Wastelands get repetitive.

The villains are bland and the plot is paper thin. Then again that's who I feel about 17 and 18 so I guess it is inherit.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Rubens » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:15 pm

Despite being tired out gags, I do like the fact the movie takes the characters into a shopping mall. The few iddle scenes in previous movies are usually set in the countryside, so liked seeing them hanging out in the city for a change.

The other thing I liked (and personally the best thing in it) was Goku momentarily absorving the Genki Dama; I think Krillin's line was a way of trying to say it was an impressive feat combining a technique that requires a calm and relaxed mind to concentrate with a transformation triggered by rage. Maybe it was worded weirdly or it's just headcanon.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:33 pm

Rubens wrote:Despite being tired out gags, I do like the fact the movie takes the characters into a shopping mall. The few iddle scenes in previous movies are usually set in the countryside, so liked seeing them hanging out in the city for a change.

The other thing I liked (and personally the best thing in it) was Goku momentarily absorving the Genki Dama; I think Krillin's line was a way of trying to say it was an impressive feat combining a technique that requires a calm and relaxed mind to concentrate with a transformation triggered by rage. Maybe it was worded weirdly or it's just headcanon.
The weird thing about the Genki Dama situation is that Toei would later bring that idea back in Super during the Tournament of Power, with Kuririn even being the one who exposits that bit of information. I have no clue why they decided to reference that, especially since the Super Saiyan transformation by that point was retconned into being a tingly feeling in your back.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Rubens » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:12 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Rubens wrote:The other thing I liked (and personally the best thing in it) was Goku momentarily absorving the Genki Dama; I think Krillin's line was a way of trying to say it was an impressive feat combining a technique that requires a calm and relaxed mind to concentrate with a transformation triggered by rage. Maybe it was worded weirdly or it's just headcanon.
The weird thing about the Genki Dama situation is that Toei would later bring that idea back in Super during the Tournament of Power, with Kuririn even being the one who exposits that bit of information. I have no clue why they decided to reference that, especially since the Super Saiyan transformation by that point was retconned into being a tingly feeling in your back.
I have no clue either, but my reasoning is that Goku had long mastered super saiyan form since Cell arc so it doesn't really bother me to see him using the Genki Dama as super saiyan past that point. In this movie he uses it before (both in the manga and the anime) coming out of the Room of Spirit and Time, which is a different context.

The "tingly feeling in the back" is just... :evil:

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:16 pm

Rubens wrote:I have no clue either, but my reasoning is that Goku had long mastered super saiyan form since Cell arc so it doesn't really bother me to see him using the Genki Dama as super saiyan past that point. In this movie he uses it before (both in the manga and the anime) coming out of the Room of Spirit and Time, which is a different context.

The "tingly feeling in the back" is just... :evil:
The back tingles are actually related to real world martial arts concepts. From Kendamu's Twitter:
Kendamu wrote:"In martial arts, there are three Dan Tian/Tanden (energy centers) that ki/chi goes through. The middle one, where the tingly feeling is on a Saiyan, is specifically the EMOTIONAL CENTER of ki flow. Super Saiyan is a transformation related to very intense emotions (such as rage)."
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:49 pm

Also the "tingly feeling in the back" (real martial arts notwithstanding) in the episode itself was just used as an oversimplify exaplanation made by a character that didn't have much experience as Super Saiyan nor knew a lot about it and so came up with whatever his guts told him. I still cant fathom how the fanbase took that in the wrong way.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:56 pm


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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by Rubens » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:The back tingles are actually related to real world martial arts concepts. From Kendamu's Twitter:
Kendamu wrote:"In martial arts, there are three Dan Tian/Tanden (energy centers) that ki/chi goes through. The middle one, where the tingly feeling is on a Saiyan, is specifically the EMOTIONAL CENTER of ki flow. Super Saiyan is a transformation related to very intense emotions (such as rage)."
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Also the "tingly feeling in the back" (real martial arts notwithstanding) in the episode itself was just used as an oversimplify exaplanation made by a character that didn't have much experience as Super Saiyan nor knew a lot about it and so came up with whatever his guts told him. I still cant fathom how the fanbase took that in the wrong way.
Wow I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the info I'll definitely look into it. :oops:
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/18/18!)

Post by superfan2024 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:27 am

I wonder why the tingly back wasn't in the manga. Maybe Toriyama never got the chance to tell Toyo? Maybe Toyo didn't feel the need to integrate it into the plot? It's still nice Toriyama gave the anime some help with turning into Super Saiyan, but unfortunately the tingly back thing came out of nowhere so it's just weird at this point.

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