MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[Gaffer Tape]

Gonna get to Cipher's post later. Was hoping you'd join in, but there's a lot to cover.

Does it explicitly need to be dramatized? It's readable within the subtext which is just as important as the main text. Goku's boredom is also mentioned at the End of Z, isn't it?

And like Cipher said, the reason Goku is terrified and not excited about fighting Raditz is because his son's life is at stake. It's not an inconsistency to react differently to different situations. That's just human nature.

No, it doesn't need to be explicitly dramatized. But it does need to feel like it's actually there in some capacity. I've said in the past I love Cipher's interpretation. I honestly wish I could find that in the story. It would be a darn sight better than what we got. But none of it feels natural to me. It feels like retroactive plot spackle. Well, most of it does.

I am going to spoil a bit here, but since it came up earlier in the thread, it made me think about the infamous Cell/Goku/Senzu moment, and that actually doesn't bother me as much. The action itself doesn't make much sense to me, either from a pragmatic place or just in terms of the rules Cell put in place. But it actually feels natural because it is setting up how overconfident Goku is, which is a real narrative thread that is going to pay off. That it's something that's actually going to be addressed and commented on and treated as the danger that it is. I feel that's there for an actual purpose. And there are very few moments of "Goku Ennui" I feel that way about. That might be the only one.

Comparing it to the scene I talk about in this episode, the difference is night and day. The reckless behavior is treated as the only sane option, while Blooma looks like an overreacting shrew. It's not about Goku developing since nearly EVERYBODY agrees with it. And since everybody is on board, it comes across like I'm supposed to be accept it as anything but reckless. And then of course it is just ignored the moment it better fits the plot for the characters to make rationale decisions. So while that interpretation would help make the scene easier to swallow, I feel the scene is doing everything in its power to prove otherwise to me.

As for Raditz, Goku doesn't say that line in response to the immediate threat of Raditz. He says it in response to the revelation that there are two other Saiyans out there who are even stronger. So Gohan being in danger has no bearing on that. By the Super era rationale, Goku should be jumping for joy over that prospect. Hell, by the Freeza era rationale, he would be, since that's just what he does when he finds out his son is trapped on an alien planet with a guy stronger than Vegeta.

[OhHiRenan]

No, it doesn't need to be explicitly dramatized. But it does need to feel like it's actually there in some capacity. I've said in the past I love Cipher's interpretation. I honestly wish I could find that in the story. It would be a darn sight better than what we got. But none of it feels natural to me. It feels like retroactive plot spackle. Well, most of it does.

It's interesting to me that you don't see it that way. Not that that's a bad thing. Analysis should be varied. To me, at least, I feel like the seeds are (lightly) sewn as early as the 21st Budokai, are put on hold from the Red Ribbon Army arc until the 23rd Budokai, and then flourish naturally from there. To be fair, however, there is a gap of three-four arcs where Toriyama doesn't really expand on this idea so I can understand why someone wouldn't be entirely sold on it. It totally works for me, though.

I am going to spoil a bit here, but since it came up earlier in the thread, it made me think about the infamous Cell/Goku/Senzu moment, and that actually doesn't bother me as much. The action itself doesn't make much sense to me, either from a pragmatic place or just in terms of the rules Cell put in place. But it actually feels natural because it is setting up how overconfident Goku is, which is a real narrative thread that is going to pay off. That it's something that's actually going to be addressed and commented on and treated as the danger that it is. I feel that's there for an actual purpose. And there are very few moments of "Goku Ennui" I feel that way about. That might be the only one.

This was actually one of the moments I was looking forward to hearing you cover the most so it's a bit exciting to see it spoiled, haha. It's one of my favorite Goku moments exactly for the reason you listed. On a whole, I'm not particularly fond of the Cell Game, but that moment stands out a lot to me.

Comparing it to the scene I talk about in this episode, the difference is night and day. The reckless behavior is treated as the only sane option, while Blooma looks like an overreacting shrew. It's not about Goku developing since nearly EVERYBODY agrees with it. And since everybody is on board, it comes across like I'm supposed to be accept it as anything but reckless. And then of course it is just ignored the moment it better fits the plot for the characters to make rationale decisions. So while that interpretation would help make the scene easier to swallow, I feel the scene is doing everything in its power to prove otherwise to me.

I understand where you're coming from, feeling like you're supposed to accept it with the cast, but I feel the reasons given to not hunting Dr. Gero early make sense on an individual level for each character. I also don't feel like it's nudging the reader into believing the characters aren't being reckless. If anything, I've always felt it was conveyed they were clearly being reckless but, in a world governed by martial arts, that doesn't really matter to them. Perhaps I'm forgetting something from the video, but what do you mean by "it is just ignored the moment it fits the plot for the characters to make rationale decisions?"

As for Raditz, Goku doesn't say that line in response to the immediate threat of Raditz. He says it in response to the revelation that there are two other Saiyans out there who are even stronger. So Gohan being in danger has no bearing on that. By the Super era rationale, Goku should be jumping for joy over that prospect. Hell, by the Freeza era rationale, he would be, since that's just what he does when he finds out his son is trapped on an alien planet with a guy stronger than Vegeta.

You're totally right. I actually reread the Saiyan arc very recently and can't believe I misremembered that. That's my bad. Though, I will say, more in defense of the Freeza arc and less Super, that fear happens before Goku's match with Vegeta which I feel is a big trigger in his character arc, shifting him to a more overtly reckless and battle obsessed character so it doesn't really rub me the wrong way that Goku is scared of Nappa and Vegeta while excited to fight Freeza later.

[lancerman]

Another fantastic dissection video.

I get the feeling Cell Saga is gonna get the 1 spot with the sheer amount of plot-induced stupidity the characters exhibit.

Somebody's forgotten the Buu Saga. Like forget OOC moments, the way the story bounces from Gohan's school life to a tourney to a battle against a manbaby to Cell 2.0 to... well, you get the picture. To say it's all over the place is an understatement.

The Cell Saga could keep its story mostly consistent with the changes despite the flimsy foundation.

That's tonal shifts though, not logical inconsistencies. The number 1 score was the Red Ribbon Arc whose tone goes all over the place as well. The single greatest tonal shift in the series probably occurs in the Tao section of that arc and it's the first time the stakes go to up. It also has the Dr. Slump section, the storming of the Red Ribbon base, the Baba section with the poignant ending, Pilaf again, characters coming in and out.

We are still in the prologue of the Android arc and we've had two sections on the Yamcha character assassination and the inconsistencies on the characters choosing to let the whole arc happen. We haven't even reached things like the timeline being changed, adding Androids, Cell coming out of nowhere, the Vegeta nonsense, etc. The Boo arc might be underwhelming, but the logic in the story makes sense.

[matt0044]

Another fantastic dissection video.

I get the feeling Cell Saga is gonna get the 1 spot with the sheer amount of plot-induced stupidity the characters exhibit.

Somebody's forgotten the Buu Saga. Like forget OOC moments, the way the story bounces from Gohan's school life to a tourney to a battle against a manbaby to Cell 2.0 to... well, you get the picture. To say it's all over the place is an understatement.

The Cell Saga could keep its story mostly consistent with the changes despite the flimsy foundation.

That's tonal shifts though, not logical inconsistencies. The number 1 score was the Red Ribbon Arc whose tone goes all over the place as well. The single greatest tonal shift in the series probably occurs in the Tao section of that arc and it's the first time the stakes go to up. It also has the Dr. Slump section, the storming of the Red Ribbon base, the Baba section with the poignant ending, Pilaf again, characters coming in and out.

We are still in the prologue of the Android arc and we've had two sections on the Yamcha character assassination and the inconsistencies on the characters choosing to let the whole arc happen. We haven't even reached things like the timeline being changed, adding Androids, Cell coming out of nowhere, the Vegeta nonsense, etc. The Boo arc might be underwhelming, but the logic in the story makes sense.

Yeah but you'd often have the Buu saga have the mass genocide of humanity along with the heroes we once followed turn into candy to be eaten... and a pair of kids who pull off the goofiest of attacks. Piccolo even said, "Wahoo!" Need I say more?

[Kunzait_83]

So... a lot to unpack here.

But before I delve deep into the weeds here, I want to make one VERY important thing clear right off the bat:

Yes, I absolutely agree with Gaffer – at least in part - that the alternative possible means of dealing with the setup of the Cell/Artificial Humans arc that he's presented would've made for a GREAT improvement on how it currently stands. I think that, at a bare minimum, Bulma should've definitely at least TRIED to go out of her way to stop Gero anyway, even against the protests of Goku, Vegeta, and whomever else in the group. And her attempts could have EASILY backfired and possibly made the situation even WORSE, making for excellent drama.

For many of the reasons I'm about to go into though, I still disagree very much that Goku should've been on board with such a plan. I certainly think that the way he acts in this arc IS in character and VERY much in keeping with who he's been more or less fairly consistently up till now.

I think it actually would've been a lot more interesting if this situation sparked some sort of an internal schism amongst the group: maybe with characters like Kuririn and Yamucha (hell, throw in Yajirobe even while you're at it to give him at least a somewhat bigger role here) siding with Bulma and going off to help her try and prevent Gero's plans preemptively, while Goku, Vegeta, and possibly maybe even Tenshinhan or Piccolo (the latter having not yet fused with Kami and developed that strengthened sense of responsibility for the world's safety) opt to take on the challenge of the fight.

Its certainly a huge missed opportunity on Toriyama's end, and I totally agree that while I still think the story as it currently stands MOSTLY works fine enough, its definitely on weaker footing than it easily could've been, and it wouldn't have taken very much here in this case to tighten it up.

So yes, I absolutely 100% agree that at least SOME form of the idea for an alternative setup that he presents here would've overall worked FAR better for the story, without compromising very much of anything.

That having been said, lets get deeper into each of these points now.

1) The Pendulum Effect

This is easily one of the most substantive points made in the video, and one that touches on a fairly big topic that I've had a great much to say about myself for a number of years now.

As far as the behind the scenes of it goes, I've generally found it rather curious and odd that Toriyama felt that Toei made Goku more innately heroic throughout the anime. By and large, I generally don't see it, at least not within the actual TV anime itself. In some of the movies, sure. Some being the operative word here. Movie 3 is probably the most clear-cut case of it, and is the one key instance in the whole franchise that I can think of where the Z Warriors come the closest they ever come to to acting as a full-on superhero-ish team.


As close as the Dragon Ball cast has ever gotten at any point to being the Anime Wuxia Justice League.

A relative smattering of the movies aside though, I'd be curious to hear from people what else there was in the TV anime (Japanese version only obviously: no dub examples) that might've made Toriyama balk as much as he apparently did at Goku's characterization. I genuinely can't think of anything off the top of my head right now.

I mean compared to what FUNimation would later on go and do with these characters (Goku in particular), Toei's percived “hero-ification” of the bunch seems downright benign and nitpickingly trivial in comparison.

So that's that end of it. Now onto the real meat of this: the fanbase.

Let me get this out of the way up front: I've had a long, long, long history myself now by this point of trying to pierce through an identical Pendulum Effect (as described here) that the Western fanbase has had going on since at least the early/mid-2000s or so (roughly around the time when the Kanzenshuu forums really first came up). Only its not so much to do with the topic of Goku's heroism (or seeming lack thereof) but rather the series' overall tone.

For more than a decade+ now I've staunchly maintained that the tug-of-war within fandom over what Dragon Ball's tone is supposed to be (is it “HARDCORE XTREME 2 THA MAX!!!” or “featherweight whimsical, adorably cute, lighthearted fluff”?) is complete and utter reactionary bullshit on BOTH sides of the divide.

Let me make it clear: this was never, EVER any sort of an issue in the days prior to the dub. What happened over the years was the dub first introduced this notion of Dragon Ball Z being this “heavy metal, rock n roll badass, hard edged” piece of faux-edgy edgelord-ness. Obviously, this entire take on the material is wrong and totally made up by FUNimation, but nonetheless this take has indeed ingrained itself (seemingly irreversibly at this point, which is just ridiculous in itself) fairly deep within a large subsection of English language DB fandom.

However, the way that the sub/Japanese-centric portion of the fanbase (the later sub-centric portion of the fanbase I should stress: i.e. much younger fans who got into the original Japanese only AFTER they were first exposed via the dub circa the late 90s/early 2000s) had ended up reacting to this “reversioning” of the series' general tone has been, I've always felt for many, many years now, EQUALLY disproportionately incorrect as the dub's take was.

The way that the later, post-dub fanbase for the original Japanese version tends to characterize the series tone is as if it is 100% the polar, diametric opposite from the dub: that its actually as sugary sweet, cute, and whimsically adorable as a Super Mario game or any given volume of the manga Yotsuba. This I think is also, in part mind you, at least some of where the notion that DB should focus more on “slice of life” material instead of martial arts tends to come from.

I think that anyone who comes at the original Japanese material COMPLETELY divorced from ANY of the nonsensical baggage on EITHER side of the dub/sub divide will find that the take most often presented by the post-dub sub fanbase over the past 15+ someodd years is just as equally ridiculous and incongruous with the reality of what the series is actually like as FUNimation's G.I. Joe Extreme-inspired take of it is.

The truth of course is somewhere way, way further down the middle (and really divorced entirely from FUNimation's specific take): Dragon Ball slingshots wildly between whimsical lighthearted comedy AND deadly serious, hyper-violent, and dramatic stories, and then back again, then forth again, and so on. Most Wuxia in general not only does that, but is very much famous and notable FOR doing that (a point I tried to illustrate and explain the cultural history behind as best I could in the Wuxia thread). Hell, as does a ton of Asian media as a collective whole across genre boundaries.

FUNimation's take on the material is wrong both for actively over-fixating on the “serious action” at the expense of the whimsical comedy, as well as also for its specific tone for the serious action component: that of a dumb U.S. Saturday morning cartoon along the lines of the 80s TMNT cartoon, as opposed to just a straight up Shaw Bros.-esque Kung Fu film writ-large.

This is something that almost NO ONE in this divide EVER takes into consideration: that there isn't merely one flavor or style of “edgy serious” any more than there is one specific variant of “lighthearted”, and that FUNimation, more than just over-highlighting the “edgy” slice of the equation, also gets totally wrong what specific kind of “dramatic seriousness” that DB is meant to evoke: the kind you'd find in a vintage Golden Harvest or Shaw Brothers kung fu/Wuxia epic as opposed to a dumpy early 90s kids “Pew! Pew!” crapfest like Power Rangers.

Whereas meanwhile the sub fans of the 2000s and onward have gotten it just as dead wrong by over-fixating on solely the lighthearted whimsy whilst in many cases outright denying and pretending as if the series somehow DOESN'T contain almost ANY deadly serious dramatic tension, and brutally violent, viscous fighting whatsoever. Or in some cases, at times even going so far as acting as if even the JAPANESE version of the series is somehow “in the wrong” for its having ever at almost any point contained so much as an OUNCE of that “hard-edged” component in and of itself!

And the reason that the sub modern fanbase has gotten to the point of doing this over the years is... over-reactionary revolt against the dub's take. i.e. the Pendulum Effect in question. Without any knowledge or experience with other Wuxia/martial arts fantasy fiction in general (the vast majority of which has for long many decades if not centuries blended together starkly opposing tones of high stakes visceral drama and quirky lighthearted slapstick comedy) to give them perspective as to what's actually going on here with this series.

This is probably one of my BIGGEST problems with Kanzenshuu's whole community (even among a lot of the “marquee name” individuals behind it and the broader website itself): generally being some of the biggest overarching voices behind fostering and fanning a great deal of this over-reactionary pushback against the dub into another equally wrongheaded extreme about the series' tone.

All of which is to say... yes, I am VERY much aware of the Pendulum Effect, and have always been EXCEEDINGLY self-conscious and wary as hell of it.

(And also as an aside: sure enough the reactionary, un-nuanced nature of the Pendulum Effect is indeed still in full swing in the very youtube comments your video is getting, as there are already a few folks there voicing the general sentiment along the lines of “I knew it! Goku IS supposed to be a superhero and WAS one early on and Toriyama's just getting it totally wrong now!”... despite you yourself Gaffer having blatantly stated outright in your video that despite everything else, the characters are still obviously “not the Superfriends meeting up in the Hall of Justice”.)

Furthermore for my part, fostering yet another reactionary instance of the Pendulum Effect within this fanbase is by any and all means something that I have never, ever at ANY point wished or intended to do in ANY way whatsoever. In no way, shape, or form has it ever been remotely my goal or intention with anything I've ever said on this topic to simply push people into yet another wrongheaded reactionary extreme about a franchise that is already rife like hell with wrongheaded reactionary extreme viewpoints.

At NO point, in any of my writings did I mean to imply that (within the context of the story and its fictional fantasy world) that Goku is some kind of sociopathic anti-hero. Nor conversely (and I dearly hope that this goes without saying for most, but I'll say it anyway cause I know this is the internet and everything and people online tend to be more prone to reactionary thought in general) did I ever at any point mean to give off the impression that I'm making apologetics for Goku's more morally questionable actions by my efforts at dragging the framing for all this back to martial arts fantasy fiction.

In a very warped and screwed up hypothetical alternate reality where Dragon Ball was literally true and based in reality and we had Goku and co. running around and making these kinds of decisions within our really real for real world (where they actively play with the lives of BILLIONS just for the sake of a good challenge), OF COURSE I'd be condemning them all as a gang of horrific maniacs who are just as much a danger to us all as some of the villains they face. In a vast,v ast chunk of genres of fiction, they would be seen as such.

Dragon Ball though isn't reality (thank god) nor is it a typical Western superhero or otherwise generic action/adventure outting. Dragon Ball is a piece of Chinese-derived martial arts fantasy/wuxia set within an absurdist and irreverent comedic fantasy world brought forth from the same mind that gave us a little robot girl cracking the entire planet in half as a throwaway gag purely for the lulz.

Based on that specific context, I think its more than fair to (obviously not completely throw out, cause that'd be ridiculous and stupid) but at least ADJUST our critical scales accordingly.

And really, that's primarily what's been at the heart of all my various writings about Dragon Ball and its intrinsic relationship to martial arts fantasy media: to denote that by totally ignoring and bypassing this incredibly critical ingredient - that I argue functions as one of the two most root-core halves to DB's whole of an identity: the other being Toriyama's specific sensibilities as both a humorist and an aestheticist, which we're all of course on the same page with generally, more or less - the critical perspective and scales by which people have been judging this series for all these years have been deeply, deeply askew and off focus. At least as it applies to within “serious” critical examinations of it like what folks such as sites like Kanzenshuu, and people like yourself Gaffer, are in the business of engaging in.

I'm far, far less (i.e. not at all remotely) concerned with micromanaging the views, opinions, and thoughts of every last individual fan out there. What has for so long now bothered me wasn't Joe Blow average DBZ fanboy making wildly offbase assumptions about the series: because really, that's like Wednesday for this fanbase.

Rather what helped prompt me to speak out more about this topic for awhile now (against even my own initial instincts, which for a long time were to just “let it go and ignore it: someone FAR infinitely better suited to talk about this in detail will surely bring it up at SOME point or other”) is the fact that even places like Kanzenshuu, the #1 Leading Authority on DB from a critical thinking and factual analysis perspective, are also demonstrating wild and colossal ignorance about something as supremely fundamental as the series' root genre, themes, conventions, and cultural/historical precedence.

When even the most unequivocally authoritative voices out there in English language DB circles have this big of a gargantuan gaping hole in their ENTIRE CORE FRAMING of the discussion... it may not be how most of the misconceptions of this particular series have started, but its damn sure part of why a whole ton of them have been continually carried forward even up to this very late in the game here.

So with aaaaaaaall that having been said and dealt with, lets take on the rest of the main points addressed here:

2) Level of Stakes Facilitating the Audience's Leeway for the Characters' Irresponsibility

One of the key points that Gaffer brings up throughout this video (and indeed even in a few of his others: yes, I've seen a bunch of them) is that in his mind, Dragon Ball can only get away with as much amorality and selfishness on the part of its protagonists as the proportional level of goofy silliness of the plot/overal tone allows it to.

In other words: the sillier the story is, the more the audience should be expected to forgive the characters' moral compass being way off, whereas the more serious it is, the more the characters should be expected to act “responsibly”.

Before I continue on from here deep into the weeds of a thoroughly plot-detailed breakdown, I need to get this out of the way up front: I very much disagree (up to a certain point at least, anyway) with the entire core premise of his that “level of comedic silliness is directly proportional to how seriously we should gauge the stakes”.

Do I think that that kind of rule is generally a good guideline for a writer to at least take into consideration when setting pen to paper? Sure. Do I think that its some sort of ironclad law of “good and proper storytelling” that should be adhered to in all or even a majority of different contexts (like “don't talk down to the audience” or “show, don't tell”)? No. Absolutely, 100% I do not. And generally speaking, I think that Toriyama largely gets away with breaking that rule more times than not.

Look, comedy is a weird thing: people have all different kinds of senses of humor and some people find humor in places that others will find to be utterly inexplicable. I think that the movie Meet the Feebles for example is one of the most side-splittingly hilarious movies ever made: and it includes fairly lighthearted, ridiculously absurdist jokes about AIDS, heroin addiction, PTSD, and mass shootings. And a broadway-style musical number about sodomy. All using muppets.

Will everyone walk away from that kind of movie laughing like a total mental patient, the way I generally do? Not even remotely. People all have very different thresholds for how much moral cognitive dissonance (no matter how intentional) within humor that they're willing to tolerate and entertain.

Toriyama very clearly (judging by almost his whole entire body of work as a mangaka) seems to find a trmendous degree of humor in A) people with great power and distinguished authority behaving wildly irresponsibly with it, to almost childlike levels of immature pettiness (which as anyone currently paying attention to real life geopolitics right now is learning is only funny when its safely within the pages of fiction where no real person can get harmed by the consequences), and B) taking the utter piss out of almost any given dramatic storytelling trope or convention that dares take itself too seriously by cutting the legs out from underneath it.

Point blank: I think that Toriyama indulges in continually testing the limits and boundaries of Goku's rural, naïve, bumpkin sense of a martial artist's desire for never-ending growth within increasingly apocalyptic contexts to some degree because he genuinely finds that notion to be dementedly funny (and also as a consequential byproduct of the ever-escalating scales of power over Taoist mystical arts that the characters continually exhibit the further the story goes: world-threatening demons, galaxy-threatening space tyrants, existence-threatening deities, and so forth).

He could either fully embrace the severity of this trajectory and go full Fist of the North Star, continually delve into further depths of Slumpian nonsense with it... or he could try the most difficult (and ambitious) of all options: try to have his cake and eat it too as much as possible by walking a tightrope between treating it SOMEWHAT dramatically, JUST ENOUGH, while at the same time still keeping one tongue firmly in cheek with his gag manga sensibilities the whole entire time.

Do I think it works 100% of the time? No, I think he falters at times and the seams occasionally start to show. A good example of this is Kuririn's dilemma of destroying #18 during the middle of the Cell arc. This has increasingly over time come to be seen as one of the clunkier moments in the Cell arc's writing, and not without good reason: it doesn't at all play to Toriyama's strengths. Toriyama himself has admitted many times that he simply cannot write credible, dramatic romance or love stories; thus its something that he actively shies away from doing in general.

DB of course is in the tricky position of being Toriyama's stab at a long-form epic Wuxia serial. One of the biggest hallmarks of most Wuxia fiction (which is suspiciously and notably absent from DB) as a whole is its heavy highlighting of achingly heartfelt melodramatic love stories: something which is SO far out of Toriyama's wheelhouse that he actively AVOIDS it entirely wherever he can.

Nowhere is this more apparent of course than the now infamous pairing of Vegeta and Bulma. By creating Trunks and structuring the Cell arc's setup the way that he did, Toriyama put himself in a position where obviously some form of a romantic triangle is clearly going on here. And he, very infamously, avoids tackling it entirely, leaving much of it merely hinted at or otherwise taking place off-panel.

In almost literally any other piece of Wuxia media, a storyline like Bulma/Yamucha/Vegeta would've been a MASSIVE subplot given a GREAT deal of focus, dramatic weight, and tension, playing up the soap operatic “love triangle” aspect of it for all that its worth.

Toriyama though, of course, treats it flippantly and barrels right past it: I'd argue that its an area where his weaknesses as a writer get the better of him and he's unable to parlay it as a strength as he does in many other areas. Because this type of development is just way, waaaaaaaaay too story and character shakingly massive to just shunt off to the side, and no amount of personal stylistic charm on Toriyama's end is ever gonna cover for that. And it furthermore leads to awful shit like the whole “Did Yamucha actually cheat on Bulma?” situation (which Gaffer indeed covered very thoroughly and quite well in a previous video of his).

This issue is even more compounded arguably with the Kuririn/#18 story in the middle of the arc. This plot point obviously has massive repercussions on the story: Kuririn is faced with the choice of killing 18 to prevent Cell from achieving Perfection... or listening to his personal feelings and sparing her, thus risking Cell attaining even greater power.

Now here's the thing: this story could have EASILY worked and worked splendidly well even... had Toriyama dedicated the thought and energy into developing Kuririn's connection to 18 more. If you can get the audience to emotionally accept that Kuririn has indeed fallen hard for this girl in this short space of time, then his indecisiveness (and eventual choice to smash Bulma's detonation controller) would not only work, but would land very, very hard on the audience and be seen as a highlight of the arc.

Accept he doesn't; because its Toriyama, and as he self-admits, he sucks at writing romance. But he's also writing a long-running comedic Wuxia serial: it was only a matter of time before he'd run into this type of wall. Romance and epic martial arts fantasy as a genre are deeply, deeply entwined with one another.

In fairness, he does give it the old college try somewhat. He attempts to seed it with moments like 18 kissing Kuririn early on. But of course its nowhere near enough. There simply isn't at all remotely enough “there” there to sell this as a romance strong enough to conflict Kuririn this badly. So rather than the audience feeling sympathetic to Kuririn's emotional dilemma, they treat him like he's just being an idiot over a girl he barely knows.

So no: obviously Dragon Ball has its glaring flaws as a story. Yes shocker: the batshit Dr. Slumpian Wuxia series that ran for eleven years straight trying to simultaneously balance the comedic sensibilities of Mr. “Poo On a Stick is the deadliest weapon ever” along with the more dramatic and serious aspects of a long-form sprawling martial arts fantasy epic... is hardly at all bulletproof in the writing department. In other news, jumping off a building leads to death. And yes, the Cell arc in particular has its faults.

Buuuuuuut... I DO think that the tonal balance... both of the Cell arc specifically and DB in its original run as a collective whole... still hangs together and coalesces the overwhelming MAJORITY of the time, and that's ultimately why I still consider the whole endeavor to be largely a success, despite its flaws.

And again: this is all still already absolutely in keeping with the Wuxia genre's very, very long-held general sensibility of “blend silly and ridiculous slapstick humor with grave dramatic tension and whiplash back and forth between them”. Just with Toriyama's specific brand of “Haha, people up on the highest of pedestals are really just as stupid, silly, vulgar, petty, and ridiculous as the rest of us average schlubs!”-flavored whimsy spiking the punchbowl.

For example, I think that you're supposed to laugh at things like Goku's line to Bulma about her idea to go after Gero early “But he hasn't done anything yet!”

Gaffer seemed to take immense issue with that line. While I in another thread more than a month or so back had this to say about that line:

The way that Goku's "...but he (Gero) hasn't done anything yet." line comes across in the manga seems more like its an example of Goku's rural/naive dimness as opposed to him trying to actively dig for any sort of flimsy excuse to fight the Jinzoningen. Its basically a joke at his expense: he legitimately, sincerely doesn't understand why they'd go after someone over something they haven't done yet.

He's not the brightest bulb in many instances, particularly when it comes to something as complex and mind bending as a concept like time travel. Its just a throwaway chuckle moment (haha, Goku's so dippy) showing Goku being a dolt with time travel ideas, not a major plot/characterization moment that sheds any insight into his moral compass. He's neither selfishly digging for a rationale nor is he being altruistic in any way: he's just being genuinely dense.

I still stand by that statement: moments like this are being played for laughs. Quasi-dark laughs, yes (I mean, dark only up to a point here: taking DB seriously as a morality piece is needless to say highly ill-advised, about as ill-advised as taking seriously even the grimiest of the Evil Dead films), but generally speaking Toriyama is NOT asking the audience to identify with Goku (or much of the rest of his fellow martial artists) from an ethical standpoint. The guy himself is by now quoted as saying many times that Goku is NOT meant to be taken as a full-bore “good person” in a traditional sense.

Its not just that line obviously: everything about the Boo arc's sense of wacky apocalyptic doom is all part of one gigantic cosmic joke (a somewhat meta one at that) about the series' own continuing absurdity. You have a Lovecraftian eldritch horror named after a fucking Disney Cinderella song, made of what's for all intents and purposes cosmic bubblegum... who's sole purpose is to wipe out all gods, cosmic deities, and existence in its totality (both in the physical as well as spiritual plane). And the only people powerful enough to stop him are of course... our familiar daffy lunkhead of a kung fu master, his son who can't stand fighting at all, and a pair of martial arts prodigies who are 7 and 8 years old respectively and act very much like it the whole entire time.

The ENTIRE joke is HINGED upon Toriyama's by-then familiar theme of “the most powerful people with the gravest of stakes on their shoulders, up to and including the threat itself, are a collection of utter doofuses who don't grasp how serious and horrifically dire any of this shit actually is”.

The general point being: you're meant to both take somewhat seriously the grave threats that Toriyama introduces, while at the same time laugh in morbid bemusement at how the character's own innate silly natures keeps escalating the situation. Kinda like how you're meant to watch a movie like Re-Animator (another story where characters are constantly making selfish, morally questionable decisions at nearly every turn) and be both simultaneously horrified at Lovecraft's disturbing concepts while also getting laughs out of the dark 80s humor that's continually injected into the mix.

You're supposed to feel the same awkward mix of emotions that anyone should feel when any kind of serious drama and silly comedy collide into each other: especially the further off on the opposite ends of the spectrum they are from one another. Either the clashing of the two disparate tones gels, or it doesn't.

I think that DB, in its original run and as an individual example at least, manages to have the combo coalesce way more than it doesn't... sometimes despite Toriyama's flippant, callous fickleness, and much more often because of it. For something made by a dude like Toriyama that criss crosses such a giant swath of the “drama/comedy” divide, the series is (most of the time, mind you) internally consistent with itself to fairly remarkable degrees, however much a happy accident some of it is.

Which is just as good of a dovetail into my tackling some of the more plot-heavy mechanics of it that Gaffer went into here.

By Gaffer's metric it seems, the Cell arc's setup is his Event Horizon where the series' tonal balance between drama and comedy goes too far off the rails: despite the fact that he has, up till now, hand waved and excused a whole litany of instances where the characters have behaved every bit as irresponsibly.

By all rights, in my estimate he should've been raising this complaint at a minimum back at the 23rd Budokai. I know he directly mentions this issue in the video, but I'm sorry: he and I will violently disagree here.

To remain consistent with your holding these characters firmly to stringent morality, Goku's cavalier attitude toward Ma Junior is totally inexcusable. Yes, we all know with the benefit of hindsight that Piccolo would end up gradually evolving into a good hearted warrior for peace: but at that point in time, as far as the characters are concerned, this is Piccolo Daimao reborn. The same Piccolo Daimao who BLEW UP AN ENTIRE CITY without flinching, and is responsible for an absurd level of death, destruction, wholesale slaughter, and anarchic chaos (which we see in much more detail in the anime).

Right off the bat here, by any sane measure of modern real world morality, the way that Goku handles this entire situation from the moment Piccolo reveals his identity to the Budokai audience and onward IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY WHICH WAY ETHICALLY EXCUSABLE. PERIOD. By virtue of the characters being literally the only people on the entire planet capable of standing up to Piccolo, they are placed within a moral obligation to do anything and everything within their power to at least neutralize him and keep him from attacking humanity once more.

Goku of course, does not, nor does he see it that way: Goku only has a very rudimentary grasp of the severity of the situation, and even then he still refuses to treat it with the level of gravity that it warrants. To him, this is primarily a contest between martial artists. A contest with firmly defined tournament rules by which they must both abide.

Any conventionally heroic character, by the time Piccolo has cast off his turban and mantle and revealed himself to a now panic-stricken audience that he is indeed The Great Demon King reborn, would've used that very moment to say “to hell with the rules, screw the tournament, time to put an immediate stop this scumbag and save the goddamn world”. And even if Goku wouldn't, the rest of the cast damn sure would've and could've said “fuck it” and dove into the fray to try and gang up on Piccolo anyway, Goku's protests be damned.

Of course, that ISN'T the route that any of this goes: Dragon Ball of course is NOT that kind of story, has NEVER BEEN that kind of story, nor is it within the nature of most (though certainly not all) of the characters, including Goku to necessarily go that route.

Goku instead remains steadfast in adhering to the tournament's rules (because his contest with Piccolo as a martial artist is of ultimately greater importance to him within that moment than a concept as, from his perspective, relatively abstract as the fate of BILLIONS) and the other fighters, despite their unease and trepidation (they even do at one point make a very brief attempt at trying to intervene as a group, which Piccolo nips in the bud) ultimately relent to Goku's wishes.

Vegeta of course is the other elephant in the room here. Its been discussed to death ad nauseam now, but for purposes of this topic it very much bears repeating: Vegeta is unquestionably a genocidal lunatic, responsible for the deaths of untold billions if not TRILLIONS across COUNTLESS worlds for roughly 20 to 30 someodd years or so.

Letting him go, after he just tried to lay waste to the entire Earth, after he just ordered the wholesale slaughter of all Goku's friends at the hands of his hulking, musclebound behemoth of a partner and their squad of acid spitting, self destructing plant creatures (seriously, when you put it all in context, this series is WAY infinitely nuttier than even most people generally regard it as)... in and of itself that's be at a bare minimum RIDICULOUSLY questionable. But letting him go purely for the sake of wanting to fight him again later on? Hoping (downright anxiously so even) that he becomes even more powerful between now and then? Just for the fucking sport of it?!

There's only a very, very select group of exceedingly specific genre-works in which that rationality makes even the slightest bit of sense from a purely ethical/moral standpoint. One of them is the Predator series. Another of course being martial arts fiction, especially of the fantasy/Wuxia persuasion.

The same exact point applies to Freeza, word for word but times infinity. Freeza is not only every bit as murderously and genocidally insane as Vegeta was at that point, he was of a near limitless degree stronger and with an entire goddamned army of fanatically loyal space Nazis at his beck and call.

Once again: Goku treats most of the fight like a contest of skills between warriors rather than a battle for the fate of literally countless worlds that would be future victims of this tyrant's bottomless greed and lunacy. Complete with not just one, but several attempts to let the maniac go free (and even to finish gathering his strength to its absolute fullest), hoping that he might get even STRONGER later on and challenge him yet again. Even AFTER he just murdered his best friend right directly the fuck in front of him.

The point here is: this has been an ongoing thread throughout the entire series for waaaaaaaay longer than just now at the dawn of the Cell arc's opening chapters. This is a nigh-consistent and ever escalating pattern in Goku's behavior and characterization throughout the bulk of the entire series, and one that WELL predates even the Z era of the series and the introduction of the Saiya-jin (more on the whole “Goku's Saiya-jin heritage” bit later on).

Either you're cool with and on board with this not at all being a “save the world” series that's filled with and focused on “defenders of the innocent” kinds of characters, or your not. You cannot just arbitrarily pick and choose which instances of the characters (sometimes cavalierly) tossing aside moral responsibility for the lives of BILLIONS that you're OK with and which ones your not, when ultimately at the end of the day.... the main characters aren't almost ever prioritizing the lives of billions first and foremost at almost any point in the series.

Either you're invested in these characters as being innately responsible for the whole world and all of humanity's safety (or indeed later on, the whole goddamn universe and every living thing in it) the MOMENT that stakes of that magnitude first come into play in any serious fashion (which is right around Daimao more or less), or you recognize and are on board with this being A) a screwy fantasy world populated with wacky characters who are often painted in the most morally crass and comedically irreverent light possible whilst also happening to embody some very ancient Chinese martial arts codes of antiquated warrior's chivalry and competitiveness.

Whichever way you choose to go though, DON'T throw up your hands and wail over THIS PARTICULAR one instance over here as being somehow outside the boundaries of upstanding moral decency on the characters' part, while also in the same breath letting slide all those OTHER instances that were JUST AS crazy and suspect and in gross endangerment over just as many (sometimes even MORE) lives over there.

When you make this much hay over “this isn't a joke: all of humanity hangs in the balance!”, then you don't from there get to pick and choose which examples are more egregiously over some imaginary line than the others. Either they all matter and are somehow a “betrayal” of the series' general direction and the characters' depictions, or they don't and aren't. In this “the character's morality and ethics matters” context, you only get to pick one of those options.

This isn't like I'm being pedantically nitpicky here: the moral consequences of the characters' actions (or inactions) within this set of chapters (the beginning setup for the Cell/Artificial Humans arc) are THE ENTIRE crux of a lot of your issues here. The whole point of a vast swath of this video was to demonstrate some sort of moral contrast or inconsistency between how the characters (Goku in particular) had behaved before the arrival of Future Trunks, and their decisions made after, within these now-infamously contentious chapters that you're now covering here.

And my counterargument is that its not or even close to it, and to act like it is is to simply pick and choose when its convenient to hold the “morally irresponsible” card over Toriyama's handling of Goku and co. Why stop here with the group's decision to ignore Bulma's idea to take more active advantage of Trunks' warnings?

Why not harp on the shitty ethics behind Goku's decision to convince Kurirn to spare Vegeta, or to prioritize the 23rd Budokai Championship over Piccolo's (then-VERY real and credible) threat to humanity, or anything and everything to do with Goku's handling of Freeza during the course of their fight?

ALL OF THOSE INSTANCES WERE JUST AS EASILY AND EQUALLY AVOIDABLE AND PREVENTABLE BY GOKU AND THE OTHERS AS WAS THIS INCIDENT WITH GERO AND THE JINZONINGEN, WITH STAKES THAT ARE EVERY BIT AS DIRE.

There is no “yeah, but this example right here is sooooo much worse than the others!” escape hatch that you can use here. All of these incidences are EQUALLY morally and ethically REPREHENSIBLE, be it in a specifically superheroic or just a more generically conventional action/adventure standpoint. And for damn sure of course within a real world one (obviously).

The (wholly fictional and fantasy land mind you) lives endangered by Gero and his creations are no less precious and valid than those endangered by Vegeta, Freeza, or Piccolo Ma Junior; and Goku and the other Z Warriors played fast and loose with those lives (in the name of a good challenge to their martial arts mastery) every bit just as much as they're doing in the current chapters you're on right now in your video series.

And all of this of course gets monumentally worse by the Boo arc natch, when its not just one world (Earth) or an entire universe worth of planets, but literally ALL OF REALITY AND EXISTENCE in both a physical and metaphysical sense that's hanging in the balance.

And no, the Pilaf arc doesn't really work at all as a counter example to stack against any of this: even in the anime, where Pilaf is introduced much earlier on, at almost no point throughout the arc is the characters' primary aim to protect the world from the (hopelessly inept) scourge of the little blue imp; even by the very end where they're mainly just trying to escape from his castle in one piece (either from his silly traps, or Goku's Oozaru rampage) saving the world from Pilaf's wish crops up only as a point of tension RIGHT AT THE ASS-END of things for approximately two seconds, when they're just trying to keep him from having his wish granted (and presumably perhaps, have one of their own wishes granted instead).

And you also neglected to mention another very important point in all that: stopping Pilaf from having his wish granted was in no way at direct odds with Goku attempting to challenge his martial arts skills in a fight.

There's really nothing else for any of the characters to gain (least of all Goku) by not trying to stop him. There's utterly zero conflict of interest between stopping Pilaf from gag-manga global conquest and their own individual selfish desires; all the more so when there's still a chance that one of them can have their wish granted instead.

Hell, Goku arguably doesn't even truly and “properly” begin his full-on endless quest for ever increasingly greater mystical kung fu skills (which from then on comes to define his ENTIRE character's direction forevermore) until he starts his training under Muten Roshi the following arc.

Once Pilaf's wish is granted, its all from there a matter of the characters' simply trying to escape his castle (and then Oozaru Goku) alive. There's really no more “threat” against the world for them to stop by that point.

Same applies to the Red Ribbon arc. Whether Goku decides to get the rest of the Dragon Balls and wish Bora back or just keep his Grandfather's 4 Star Ball and be off on his merry way, there's NOTHING inherent to this conflict that impedes his progress as a martial artist. If anything, pursuing the remaining Dragon Balls to wish Bora back would offer him MORE opportunity to use and test his skills since he very well realizes at that point that he obviously has to go through the whole damn Red Ribbon Army to do it. Apart from sacrificing his beloved Grandfather's sentimental keepsake, its a win/win for him.

Does any of that mean that I'm arguing that Goku doesn't or never cared about Bora and Upa? Absolutely not: just that the very nature of that dilemma (either keep his Grandpa's beloved heirloom that he just traveled halfway around the world and went through utter hell to retrieve, or sacrifice it to help this poor, grieving little kid get his dead father back) is in NO WAY one in the same as the later situations in the following story arcs: where Goku is choosing between the literal fate of mankind (and possibly the whole universe) and his developing martial arts abilities.

I think that THAT'S one of the key things that you're missing in your whole entire analysis Gaffer: Goku IS generally selfless with regards to MOST things and most circumstances. He'll give up a great deal, without question (especially if its just worldly possessions which, 4 Star Ball aside, generally mean less than nothing to him in the first place), to help most people with just about any issue they're having. The sole exception to all this being... if it somehow interferes with his ever increasing need for a challenge to his (by the series' end, very much literal god-level) martial arts abilities.

THAT'S the real clincher where the true limits of all of Goku's selflessness is really pushed at and prodded, and its what your earlier pre-Piccolo counter-examples completely miss: none of those scenarios factored against Goku's training or desire for competition and tests of his abilities. He had nothing in the way of challenging and growing his abilities to lose (and plenty to gain in some instances) in helping many of these people, be it Umigame, Bora and Upa, Sno and the denizens of Jingle Village, or whomever.

I don't just think that Cipher's “warriors' ennui” analysis of Goku is merely a well thought out fan interpretation: I think that he spot on nails the entire core of Goku's characterization across the broader breadth of the series.

Which then brings me to:

[Kunzait_83]

3) Goku's Nature as a Character

So I've already spoken at great, great lengths in several other threads about what I think of Goku's characterization, especially as it pertains to martial arts fantasy hero archetypes.

So fuck it, might as well do that again for a bit more, seeing as how its inescapably relevant here.

Lets start by quoting an older post of mine:

I want to clarify something though: I don't think, nor have I ever said, that these characters aren't at all in ANY way heroic. Like I've said before, if push came to shove and there were innocent people in immediate danger around them, those people's safety would come first and foremost to them. Hell, the word "hero" constantly crops up even in most Wuxia fiction (Legend of the Condor Heroes, Chinese Hero, The Heroic Trio, and... well, just plain Hero for the title of one notable movie, to name but a small, tiny few examples among many), and not without good reason.

What I've been stressing for quite awhile now though, because so very many times in the past this has been often taken completely for granted, is that these are characters for whom while they may step up and be heroic if a dire situation presents itself, protecting people and the planet in and of itself is never something that acts as their main priority or motivator. Martial artists, like Mark said, can step up to the plate and be heroic when the time and opportunity calls for it, but ultimately their lives revolve around and are driven overwhelmingly by their training and desire to improve themselves beyond all else.

Sometimes, when the stakes seem fairly abstract (like in many instances during the Cell arc, as well as even at several times during Freeza, the early half of Boo, and even at points during the Saiya-jin arc, the 23rd Budokai, and all throughout), the fight and the challenge will take priority, because these characters don't see themselves as "saviors" or "protectors" and don't live their lives as such. But when innocent lives are clearly in immediate danger, then they'll certainly intervene to try and rescue and defend them.

In other words, these characters ARE heroes, but the definition of the word "hero" and what it entails to be one within the context of a Chinese-style martial arts fantasy like Dragon Ball carries a MUCH different meaning than it would in most Western superhero fiction. I don't at all mean to try and paint them as sociopaths, that's not at all where I've ever been coming from with any of this.

Just that they're being oftentimes viewed in U.S. fandom through a genre and cultural lens that they were never intended to be seen through, and the real nature of where this story is rooted stems from a very, very different type of "hero" from what a lot of Americans, particularly kids weaned mainly on Marvel and DC-style superheroes, are used to. And a lot of that difference is rooted in how the morality of these kinds of stories and character archetypes originate themselves so much in archaic medieval Chinese kung fu warriors' ideologies and philosophies about chivalry (hence the "Xia" part of Wuxia: Wu = martial arts and Xia = heroism or chivalry).

There's a whole section on the first page of the Wuxia thread where I delve fairly deeply into the details of the values system and moral compass of the Xia and the Wulin community of martial arts masters throughout most all Wuxia fiction (represented throughout Dragon Ball by Goku and pretty much all of the notable martial artists he meets). Such as how they regard trained fighters preying on and bullying non-martial artists/civilians as disgraceful and obscene (hence their continually coming to the defense of the weak), among plenty of other things. Read that if you're feeling so inclined for a more detailed exploration of all this.

I think that this more or less accurately lines up with the line of Muten Roshi's that you quoted in the video:



I think its a combination of Goku's own general dimness as well as his own increasingly difficult to satisfy desire for a challenge to his martial arts mastery that he often isn't able to grasp something as big in scope as the total eradication of the universe and all of humanity. People IN REAL LIFE even are often incapable of making that degree of stakes land personally with them.

But presented with something simple, direct, and personal, such as someone who is in obvious danger right before him: then yes, Goku of course will set aside his goals and intervene in whatever way that he can to help someone in need.

This ranges from very simple things like Goku helping Umigame way early on (it was Bulma, not Goku, who had time to lose from the detour: this was her journey, Goku was just tagging along for the ride) all the way down to more severe crises like Goku's fight with Raditz.

I think that Goku would've set time aside to help someone as weak and in obvious need of assistance as Umigame was just as much as an adult as he would've as a kid. I think that the point you raised about Goku helping Umigame back then “even though it didn't necessarily promise a potential fight” was telling about how you might be perceiving this: no one, not Toriyama, not the manga itself, certainly not myself or any other fans, have EVER made the claim that Goku will ONLY act on someone's behalf if there's something in it for him, particularly a chance to test his skills. Because CLEARLY that isn't and never has been the case.

Its not that Goku's lacking in obvious compassion when faced with someone that's clearly in need. I just don't think that he's either bright enough nor do his own archaic warriors' motives always fully gel with certain degrees of danger or peril towards others on a grand enough scale that would overwhelm the minds of even most intelligent people.

So if you had a bus full of innocent people falling over a cliff right before Goku's eyes (which incidentally is a situation that Goku is indeed faced with in the anime in the infamous driving episode), then OF COURSE he's going to use his abilities to try and save those people, no matter what else may be happening at that moment. He isn't a sociopath nor is he a narcissist.

Raditz, to go back to him, had kidnapped Goku's own son. Who I should stress was, at that point a completely untrained non-martial artist. Goku was of course more than able to set aside everything else (including his own martial arts ideals) to do ANYTHING possible, including teaming up with a very dangerous and lethal enemy, in order to save his own son.

There was NOTHING in that situation that would spur him to do otherwise, and the immediacy and intimacy of the situation itself (his own flesh and blood in obvious mortal peril right before his eyes) is such that its sure as hell going to puncture straight through even a mind as generally dense as his and register as “Danger! SUPER important, this overrides everything else”.

I'll summarize it again as simply as can be: Goku's character is an ignorant Chinese kung fu hillbilly hayseed who is generally beholden to martial arts ideals that are SUPER antiquated to begin with (an entire concoction of which is NOT AT ALL original to Toriyama but is instead a very well trodden martial arts fantasy fiction archetype).

Present him with a situation as MASSIVE and epic in scope as “the fate of until BILLIONS hangs in the balance” and the gravity is simply NOT going to register. Present him with “hey this innocent person, or group of people, right over here next to you are about to be killed” and THAT'S on a scale that will MUCH more likely for his mind to compute and process.

Add to the fact that in the case of Raditz, the immediate person before him in danger was his own son (who once again at that point, unlike in later arcs, was NOT a trained martial artist yet and had NO way to protect himself whatsoever, something which Goku was all too keenly aware of)... then yeah, OBVIOUSLY he's going to go into full on “protective papa wolf” mode and do whatever he can in whatever way that he can to save the day and get Gohan to safety first and foremost.

I'm keeping my examples relegated mainly to Dragon Ball and not drag in other Wuxia series and characters into the mix as points of comparison; mainly because A) this has run on WAY too long already, even by my silly standards, and B) because I know that honestly, it wouldn't matter much when all's said and done anyways, because DB itself is the main thing that most anyone here (including yourself Gaffer) are primarily familiar with and will be seen as relevant to the discussion.

So all I'll quickly say on that matter right here is this: you'll find a LOT of cases of martial arts heroes and protagonists across ALL of martial arts fantasy media acting in similarly “strange” ways when it comes to their own priorities as fighters. Some situations are such that fighters will set their immediate concerns aside and intervene against a threat on behalf of protecting the innocent and for the greater good beyond themselves.

And in other situations, characters make choices that obviously put their own warriors' principals and individual value as fighters above almost ALL else, and would be seen as a morally ghastly course of action in the real world, particularly in the modern day. It genuinely DOES vary WILDLY from case to case, story to story, character to character, and hell sometimes moment by moment.

Its not for nothing that Muten Roshi himself, the very SAME character that you quoted from earlier, also had THIS to day about Goku, and in an earlier arc that still predates Z and the debut of the Saiya-jin:





Despite what you and other fans here might think to the contrary, I DON'T think that the Muten Roshi quotes that you and I have presented here are totally and wholly incongruous or incompatible; at least not within the specific context of this type of story.

Goku, as a character, is BOTH of these things. He is willing and capable of fighting to protect innocent lives being threatened... and ALSO just as capable of fighting primarily for himself and his own desire for betterment of his martial arts skills. BOTH ideals are ingrained into him (both archetypically as well as individually), and BOTH come up and are tested throughout the series.

Does Goku always make “the right” choice? Obviously and most certainly not, definitely at least not to any sensible real world person's standards. But the point is, both by nature of this being a work of fantasy fiction, and moreover by this being a work of fantasy fiction that clearly exists outside the realm of “traditional western heroes” - both due to the Chinese martial arts fantasy aspect, AND to Goku's specific archetype, AND even further to Toriyama's specific sense of demented whimsy (which all too often gleefully relishes in playing with his characters being not altogether morally straightforward)...

...then yes, something like the Cell arc's setup, which in most other instances indeed would or could be a total game breaker, in THIS specific context more or less DOES still work and still hangs together within this particular series' own internal logic.

Is it watertight? Is it as deftly well executed as it could've been? Is it a paragon for stellar writing? No, no, and definitely no. It is, all said and done, fairly slapdash and cavalier handwaving for a silly piece of hokey Chinese kung fu fairy tale fluff coming from, once again, the Dr. Slump guy. Sartre is the dead LAST thing anyone ought to be expecting here.

BUT... it also doesn't “break” the story either (nor does it significantly damage the characters either, apart from maybe Bulma to some extent; I definitely agree, once more, that its DEEPLY out of character for her to not have at least TRIED to do something on her own), which is the main charge that's being thrown at it here (and indeed in a gazillion other discussions that have been had about this particular topic for the better part of nearly 20 years now).

It isn't as deftly handled as it easily could've been with a bit more effort, but it also isn't some grave betrayal of who Goku was and how he was portrayed up to this point that cracks the entire DB framework in half like an egg.

I think that a LOT of the “outrage” over this just comes down to most Western fans (possibly even including Gaffer himself, and I only say that becomes he does seem genuinely invested in who Goku is and how he's portrayed as from a moral and ethical standpoint of “heroism”) walking into this with the wrong set of deeply ingrained preconceptions and expectations.

As I've already gone at great lengths to explain: most of Gaffer's examples from earlier in the series that demonstrate Goku's altruism simply DON'T clash against this scenario (nor other ones like those within his fights against Ma Junior, Vegeta, Freeza, etc.) in any really meaningful way, because Goku ISN'T throwing aside anything in those instances that would impede his progress as a martial artist.

He never has to choose between his growth as a fighter or saving Bora: he chooses between his Grandfather's keepsake heirloom and saving Bora. He doesn't choose between his progress as a fighter and helping Umigame: he's simply taking time out of a trip (that's mainly for Bulma's benefit anyway) to help someone in need.

And honestly, do I think that if Goku's progress as a fighter WERE on the line instead of a family keepsake or an extra day or so of a cross country hike that he THEN would somehow say to Bora, Umigame, or whomever “sorry pal, tough shit”? Probably not, no I don't. Because in those cases Goku has a clear and defined personalization of people in suffering or need right before him, and he'll just about ALWAYS step up and do what's right in THOSE sorts of instances, as opposed to simply telling him that “if you don't do X, everything that ever was will cease to exist”.

But I bring up the fact that his improvement of his fighting abilities isn't on the line in those instances, because its a clear and obvious flaw in Gaffer's reasoning for highlighting those examples: they don't really “prove” anything one way or another in regards to a “contradiction” or “betrayal” of Goku's characterization up till this point.

This also is as good a time as any now to quickly address the whole “Saiya-jin heritage” thing. Generally speaking, I ultimately DON'T think that it really factors into Goku's characterization and behavior as much as most fans generally seem to think that it does.

I know it gets played up way, waaaaaaaay more in the dub (which frankly speaking is just its own separate continuity entirely at this stage), but by my recollection its referenced - in relation to Goku and his general personality anyway - a relatively small number of times throughout the Japanese series (anime or manga: a fair bit more often in the anime to be sure though). But at the end of the day, I think its pretty apparent that Toriyama was headed down this road with Goku's character WELL long before he came up with and introduced the Saiya-jin concept.

Generally speaking, Goku's Saiya-jin heritage is relatively RARELY leaned on too heavily by the story to “explain” or “justify” his lust for fighting or most of his personality quirks. Its most often a throwaway reference that comes up every so often (usually by Vegeta or Kuririn mainly; Bulma and Muten Roshi a time or two as well); but generally speaking, its just ultimately who Goku IS as a person.

I think that the “Saiya-jin blood” thing (in terms of Goku's personality, obviously not in relation to a ton of his abilities like SSJ and whatnot) is a handy and convenient bit of minor character detail that further helps SUPPORT much of Goku's personality and behavior. And its also used as a cool bit of personal drama for Goku during the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs when he's wrestling with his own personal connection to a race of vicious and barbaric space thugs (and which I think does serve to give him some small shred of subtle and understated depth).

But ultimately I think that its like so much else in the way of the series' sci fi concepts and themes: surface-level window dressing that's when all's said and done there just in the backdrop of a character who by and large gets a almost ALL of the essence of what makes him the way he is from similar characters from a bazillion Chinese myths and folktales.

I think that falling back on Saiya-jin heritage too heavily as an all-purpose “excuse” for Goku's nature is just ducking around the much more simple fact that Goku simply is who he is and that's all there is to it. Its been there in place since well before the concept ever came up; there's no reason to think Goku wouldn't have still headed down this road as a character even without sci fi concepts like monkey-tailed space barbarians entering into the mix of things.

In the end, despite how all my inane warblings might be making it sound, Goku isn't all THAT complicated of a character to understand.

Goku is a generally good hearted person. Goku is also exceedingly book dumb and naive. Goku also LOVES martial arts and pushing himself beyond his limits as a fighter. Goku likes to help people when he sees personally that there are people who need his help.

He also has a hard time grasping a great deal of complex (or even some basic and simple) concepts that don't somehow involve martial arts technique and strategy. Sometimes its obvious to him when there's more serious shit than his personal needs on the line, and he can be incredibly selfless in those instances. Other times it isn't, and he can be prone to acts of selfishness in those instances.

All around though, he's generally in the grand scheme of things a fairly heroic guy: his main overriding drive in the world though just happens to be geared inward towards bettering himself, and this has as many huge, gaping flaws as it does its virtues. But its not as if he also doesn't, never, or is incapable of thinking of the needs of others as well.

All of these things coexist together at once inside this character, and they're generally NOT as nonsensically contradictory as a lot of people seem to believe (nor are they innately unique to Goku, apart from the general air of Toriyama-whimsy surrounding it all). Despite ALL of my silly rambling on this matter, this ultimately isn't rocket science.

And no, that's not to place “cultural/genre context” as some kind of instant get out of jail free card to excuse any and all instances of sloppy writing. Because DB for its own part is of course obviously chock full of shaky moments of ill-conceived writing (some of which I just touched on earlier), as are many, many, many other examples of Wuxia that are out there (as there is with ANY other genre of fiction, especially one this massive, in existence).

But what I AM trying to get across is that while this specific genre context isn't some catch-all excuse to dismiss any potential criticism... it IS still a factor that IS present, both within the broader genre, and within Dragon Ball specifically. And since it IS indeed there, ignoring it entirely and setting it fully aside as if its NOT a factor to take into consideration is, I strongly feel, a MASSIVE and inexcusable oversight when trying to “seriously” critically examine and methodically pick the whole series apart.

Do I think that Toriyama consciously had all this in mind at all times when he wrote Dragon Ball? Generally speaking, no of course I do not. Certainly at least SOME of the time in SOME cases he had some of this in mind certainly (I think there are a few passages throughout the series, including ones that we've both quoted, that show pretty clearly that SOME of this WAS a conscious influence to whatever degree).

But overall generally speaking, I attribute a LOT of DB's Wuxia influences to both Toriyama's own particular film/media/pop culture addiction as well as general cultural osmosis of the region of the world that he lived in (where Wuxia genre conventions are almost every bit as deeply culturally ingrained into the average person's collective psyche as Western and horror tropes and cliches are to most average people in America and such).

Up to and including the parts of Goku's characterization that worked out as a happy accident just as often as they do intentional (subconscious or conscious) choices on Toriyama's end.

[Cipher]

In this thread we only write novels.

Comparing it to the scene I talk about in this episode, the difference is night and day. The reckless behavior is treated as the only sane option, while Blooma looks like an overreacting shrew. It's not about Goku developing since nearly EVERYBODY agrees with it. And since everybody is on board, it comes across like I'm supposed to be accept it as anything but reckless. And then of course it is just ignored the moment it better fits the plot for the characters to make rationale decisions. So while that interpretation would help make the scene easier to swallow, I feel the scene is doing everything in its power to prove otherwise to me.

First, I think it's an entirely fair criticism to point out that, in moments such as choosing to prolong his fight against Freeza, throwing the Senzu to Cell, and even in Goku and Vegeta's callous handling of the early Boo arc in the face of Kaioshin's warnings, the story seems to take more care to present the danger of Goku's recklessness—to clarify that he's not a voice of reason—than it does here. And I'll reiterate that, due to shared misgivings on how every non-Goku character tolerates the situation, this is probably the toxic Goku moment I find the least well-executed.

I've given a bit of thought to this scene in light of the current TV arc of Super, too, and its completely hot-cold handling of Goku's complicity or toxic personality, and come to the conclusion that I'd also be much harder on this scene were I approaching it within ongoing serialization. Then again, I also wound up not being too fussed with the Super anime presenting a scenario in which Goku is more or less responsible for the erasure of Trunks' timeline because he screws around with Black for no reason, which is never commented on, so who knows.

So, yeah, this is not a wonderful scene. But it's also not one I think is out of character for Goku. And before we get too far away from it, I'm also not sure it so gleefully takes his side without admonishing him as you're suggesting it does. (The other characters certainly do, which—noted—is not the series' greatest moment in terms of sincere presentation. Why are even the largely altruistic pragmatists so on board? Because we have to get on with the story!) But in terms of Goku—just Goku—the scene is punctuated with Bulma saying he sounds like a fucking dictator. (Colorful addition my own.) Bulma comes away the clear voice of reason in that discussion, and I actually believe that the story wants me to hold that to be true. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if it brushed toxic Goku moments over the rug all the time (Suuuuuuper), but it certainly doesn't make a habit of doing so in the original run between his decisions regarding Vegeta, Freeza, the end of this arc, or the Boo arc.

As for Raditz, Goku doesn't say that line in response to the immediate threat of Raditz. He says it in response to the revelation that there are two other Saiyans out there who are even stronger. So Gohan being in danger has no bearing on that. By the Super era rationale, Goku should be jumping for joy over that prospect. Hell, by the Freeza era rationale, he would be, since that's just what he does when he finds out his son is trapped on an alien planet with a guy stronger than Vegeta.

Also a fair point! He does react sans excitement to the idea of two stronger Saiyans in a way he never does to future threats, and in this arc in particular, the excitement that does come up will be laid rather directly at the feet of his newly revealed Saiyan heritage. If you want to, I couldn't begrudge reading into the behind-the-scenes impetus there, and finding it a little insincere.

But I just don't find it all that insincere. Or at least I don't find that it fails to track with the character. For one, this is a Goku who has already spared Piccolo Daimao, whom he barely won against, and asked him to become stronger—we know, before we even hear the word "Saiyan," that he has it in him to react with pleasure to the idea of future rivals and threats. For another, it fits with the overall trajectory of his character. The difference between Goku in the middle of the Raditz fight and the end of the Vegeta fight is that Goku is much more powerful, and thus much further on his way toward challenges seeming inconceivable, than he was prior. The gap between Vegeta and Goku is also smaller than the one Raditz, at the time of his arrival, represents. I basically agree with OhHiRenon that the Vegeta fight is a bigger trigger.

But we don't have to try to read into subtext for that one, because Goku's dialogue presents straightfowardly that the power he's obtained from Kaio, and his expectation that he'd be unmatched, is part of his excitement at having found challenge in Vegeta:

Goku: After training at Kaio-sama's place, I thought I had reached my pinnacle...
But that Vegeta guy there has done far better than I have...
It surprised me... To be honest, I was overwhelmed...
But somewhere within my heart, I was happy, and excited...
That must be because I'm a Saiyan too...
Whenever I see an amazing guy like that, my heat leaps...
I want to train even more, and fight him again...

What's the difference between Raditz and Vegeta? Eh, one round of training with a higher god and twenty-thousand power level units, give or take. It's a situation of "This time I really, really thought I was at my limits (fair enough), an this guy proved me wrong." You could argue, I suppose, that all the same circumstances were in place by the end of the Piccolo arc and yet he still expressed fear in the Raditz fight, but if anything, that would make his fearful reaction in that fight the outlier, and thus the out-of-character moment, given his trajectory from the 23rd. (Not that I think it actually is, as that tracks for me in context as well.)

I don't ask that each scenario provoke the same reaction from Goku, as I think the character has some room for believable nuance (Suuuuuuuuper). But the overall trajectory is there that as he gets stronger, he gets more bored and reckless. It's more difficult for him to imagine challenging opponents. I can't think of a single scene in the original run that feels wildly out of character to me on those grounds, accepting it as a gradual shift throughout the story. (And I agree that the seeds of that character arc are sewn even by his excitement at the idea that greater challenges exist at the end of the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, then resurrected heavily in the 23rd and given prominence through the end of the series.)

It's perfectly possible, I suppose, to go through the series with a fine-toothed comb looking for moments to pluck out and put against each other and call irreconcilable for their difference in character reactions. But, when it comes to Goku, not only do I feel most, if not all, do genuinely fit their context within his arc, that's the kind of exercise I'd only engage in if I feel from the start that something viscerally doesn't work. As a reader or viewer of Dragon Ball, my visceral reaction has only ever been—miraculously, given its writing process—that Goku's character coheres. So my inclination is to come in looking to explore the ways in which it leads me with that viscerally positive reaction—the hows and whys of its coherence—rather than to search for ways in which it might be argued that it doesn't.

Many of your critiques I find totally fair, even if I might argue the elements you criticize ultimately wind up fitting the series and character regardless. I think we might be entering with different mission statements. I'm curious, in that regard, if before beginning this dissection you had a gut negative reaction to Goku's character presentation as a reader, or if this is something that only came out when you began "doing the math" so to speak? If it's the latter, I'd argue that doing so is missing the forest for the trees in terms of artistic analysis, but that sounds much harsher than intended and is more of a way to back up my own reactions and thoughts on the series. From either starting point, it's a valid way to approach the content as a reader and reviewer, and it's one I enjoy watching and engaging with each time one of these videos comes out.

None of this is to say Dragon Ball's perfect or only capable of earning perfect passes from me. And to stop this post from taking on an entirely contrarian tone, I think your analysis of what's done with Yamcha (and to a lesser extent Tenshinhan) last video was spot on.

Yeah but you'd often have the Buu saga have the mass genocide of humanity along with the heroes we once followed turn into candy to be eaten... and a pair of kids who pull off the goofiest of attacks. Piccolo even said, "Wahoo!" Need I say more?

Piccolo says "Wahoo!" because Gotenks is a fucking asshole and forces him to in one of the best gags in the series.

The fact that it occurs in the same arc as his encouraging the horrific body-horror villain to kill all the remaining humans so they can buy time is sublime.

[ekrolo2]

IThe fact that it occurs in the same arc as his encouraging the horrific body-horror villain to kill all the remaining humans so they can buy time is sublime.

Can't say I agree, this whole chunk eerily reminds me of the aforementioned Gero debate where it feels like the characters act less like characters and more like toys or plot devices for Toriyama to use. Gotenks knows Boo kills everyone he's ever known and loved and he proceeds to use the same tired gag, that wasn't even funny at first, on and on and on. It's bad enough in the manga, the anime is ever worse with scenes where Goten and Trunks seemingly want to mature only to get railed back into dumb, gag morons in something that feels like a precursor to Gohan & Krillin's "arcs" in Super.

The Gero one feels similar, everyone goes through some really horrific shit during the Saiyan and Namek arcs and nothings really changed about them? Krillin shouldn't be even more petrified at the thought of dying now than he did against possibly fighting Raditz way back when? Gohan, who's later got a pacifist streak out of nowhere, doesn't deign to bring this up now? A lot of people say Bulma should've done something but I don't know, there's at least 2-3 other people there I feel shouldn't just be going by stupid Saiyan logic. None of these people who just got their lives back care that a guy came from the future and told them they died permanently against the Androids? Really? Nobody cares or thinks about it?

And before someone says "They're not superheroes!" this has nothing to do with me wanting them to do the right thing, I want to react to something resembling people, these two instances are fine examples of where they don't do that and it severely weakens the story. It's probably why a lot of Super feels toothless as I never get the sense that anyone really gives one iota of a fuck about anything happening to or around them which is a trend the Android arc started.

That's honestly why I prefer Gaffers solution to the whole situation, just have them try to fix things and have it explode in their faces as is the trend with time travel.

[Kunzait_83]

But I just don't find it all that insincere. Or at least I don't find that it fails to track with the character. For one, this is a Goku who has already spared Piccolo Daimao, whom he barely won against, and asked him to become stronger—we know, before we even hear the word "Saiyan," that he has it in him to react with pleasure to the idea of future rivals and threats. For another, it fits with the overall trajectory of his character. The difference between Goku in the middle of the Raditz fight and the end of the Vegeta fight is that Goku is much more powerful, and thus much further on his way toward challenges seeming inconceivable, than he was prior. The gap between Vegeta and Goku is also smaller than the one Raditz, at the time of his arrival, represents. I basically agree with OhHiRenon that the Vegeta fight is a bigger trigger.

But we don't have to try to read into subtext for that one, because Goku's dialogue presents straightfowardly that the power he's obtained from Kaio, and his expectation that he'd be unmatched, is part of his excitement at having found challenge in Vegeta:

Goku: After training at Kaio-sama's place, I thought I had reached my pinnacle...
But that Vegeta guy there has done far better than I have...
It surprised me... To be honest, I was overwhelmed...
But somewhere within my heart, I was happy, and excited...
That must be because I'm a Saiyan too...
Whenever I see an amazing guy like that, my heat leaps...
I want to train even more, and fight him again...

What's the difference between Raditz and Vegeta? Eh, one round of training with a higher god and twenty-thousand power level units, give or take. It's a situation of "This time I really, really thought I was at my limits (fair enough), an this guy proved me wrong." You could argue, I suppose, that all the same circumstances were in place by the end of the Piccolo arc and yet he still expressed fear in the Raditz fight, but if anything, that would make his fearful reaction in that fight the outlier, and thus the out-of-character moment, given his trajectory from the 23rd. (Not that I think it actually is, as that tracks for me in context as well.)

I don't ask that each scenario provoke the same reaction from Goku, as I think the character has some room for believable nuance (Suuuuuuuuper). But the overall trajectory is there that as he gets stronger, he gets more bored and reckless. It's more difficult for him to imagine challenging opponents. I can't think of a single scene in the original run that feels wildly out of character to me on those grounds, accepting it as a gradual shift throughout the story. (And I agree that the seeds of that character arc are sewn even by his excitement at the idea that greater challenges exist at the end of the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, then resurrected heavily in the 23rd and given prominence through the end of the series.)

It's perfectly possible, I suppose, to go through the series with a fine-toothed comb looking for moments to pluck out and put against each other and call irreconcilable for their difference in character reactions. But, when it comes to Goku, not only do I feel most, if not all, do genuinely fit their context within his arc, that's the kind of exercise I'd only engage in if I feel from the start that something viscerally doesn't work. As a reader or viewer of Dragon Ball, my visceral reaction has only ever been—miraculously, given its writing process—that Goku's character coheres. So my inclination is to come in looking to explore the ways in which it leads me with that viscerally positive reaction—the hows and whys of its coherence—rather than to search for ways in which it might be argued that it doesn't.

Many of your critiques I find totally fair, even if I might argue the elements you criticize ultimately wind up fitting the series and character regardless. I think we might be entering with different mission statements. I'm curious, in that regard, if before beginning this dissection you had a gut negative reaction to Goku's character presentation as a reader, or if this is something that only came out when you began "doing the math" so to speak? If it's the latter, I'd argue that doing so is missing the forest for the trees in terms of artistic analysis, but that sounds much harsher than intended and is more of a way to back up my own reactions and thoughts on the series. From either starting point, it's a valid way to approach the content as a reader and reviewer, and it's one I enjoy watching and engaging with each time one of these videos comes out.

None of this is to say Dragon Ball's perfect or only capable of earning perfect passes from me. And to stop this post from taking on an entirely contrarian tone, I think your analysis of what's done with Yamcha (and to a lesser extent Tenshinhan) last video was spot on.

I just wanted to highlight this entire post because I felt that I covered some very crucial points in all this that I originally intended to during my over-long spiel but had eventually slipped away from the various other tangents I ended up going down instead. Fantastically stated all around, and I couldn't agree more: I think its worth reiterating that Goku indeed seemed to think that he reached some sort of an all-tine pinnacle when he defeated Piccolo and finally won the Budokai championship. He indeed seemed to think, as did most of the other characters, that that was "the top" so to speak.

The fact that he realizes that he HASN'T hit anything even vaguely approaching his ceiling as well as being confronted with now a whole wider GALAXY full of extraterrestrial opponents is all that it takes to stir him even FURTHER down a character trajectory that had already been begun well long prior to that point (which is a point I DID do my best to cover thoroughly, perhaps TOO thoroughly, in my prior post here).

And in all honesty, I think its very possible that this was also a VERY key thing that might've spurred Toriyama to take this whole affair even further down the sci fi/space opera route in the first place (apart from just general boredom and "hey wouldn't it be cool if...?"): as an excuse for coming up with more increasingly beyond formidable opponents for Goku and the rest of the cast to deal with and continually push them beyond the bounds of just the Earth itself (where Goku and Piccolo at that point in time really DID seem to make it to the top of the summit in terms of the then-greatest living Earthbound fighters in the DB world; I mean Goku DID end up surpassing GOD himself for fuck's sake).

And knowing Toriyama, it wouldn't at all surprise me whether he (to whatever extent) had only a vague, rough inkling of an idea of this as a general direction mapped out in his mind for Goku OR if it really just serendipitously worked out to his advantage on the page as a happy accident of just winging it on the fly. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of those.

Whatever Toriyama's process of getting there aside, I think ultimately that this is why DB as a whole original work (again, pre-revival; Super is a WHOLE different can of worms in itself, and at a minimum I very much agree that it contains some really badly conceived moments that pushes many aspects of Goku's character much TOO far into un-nuanced caricature) ultimately works for me: it's story is spread out over such a long passage of time - a whole couple generations or so in-universe - that it, by sheer force of NEEDING to in order to keep the story going and ever escalating, continually pushes at the outtermost limits of many Wuxia martial arts concepts and ideals... and isn't afraid take them into seemingly "toxic" (not to further abuse and already overly-abused word) and unflattering character beats, and to embrace that enough to poke some (darkly lighthearted, or lightheartedly dark) fun at them as it goes along.

This is why it often feels like the series seems to almost be "commenting" at times on a lot of those genre-themes; despite it being VERY overwhelmingly likely that that wasn't at all Toriyama's intent, but an incidental byproduct of his continually taking this story so very far down this road in the first place. A road that I would argue (and indeed have, probably WAY too much now) was begun upon at a MUCH earlier point in the story than Gaffer seems to think it did.

[Gaffer Tape]

I have to take a moment to share with you how I came into this thread today, just for a little bit of context. I came to Kanzenshuu when I woke up this morning and saw that I had a notification. I clicked it, and it was Cipher's post here. It was a very long post, and it took me a while to get through all of it. I really enjoyed it and found myself trying to get my brain working enough to formulate my response, something that I knew would take awhile with all of the points that were raised. After I'd done some errands and returned home, I felt I was ready to buckle down and spend some time addressing this post. And then, just on a completely unrelated whim... I scrolled up. In the heat of the moment, or in my half-awake stupor at the time, I guess I had mistaken the implication of the notification tab with the "first unread post" function, so I had simply assumed Cipher's post was where I had left off last night. But, no! I had not one, but two Kunzait_83 posts above that that I had almost completely missed! And, again, I was thrilled (and slightly terrified) because I knew if he happened to watch this video, he would have words for me. And I have not been disappointed on that front either. I have been going through his points, jumping up periodically to pace and formulate what my own future response would be to that... only to sit down again and take in the next point, and the cycle continues. And I've been doing this now for about half an hour and realized I'm still only about two-thirds through his FIRST post. And I realized, I just can't do this in one sitting; otherwise, I'm going to be spending my entire birthday perched in front of this computer composing Dragon Ball essays. And I'm thrilled, as thrilled as Goku in the face of a new challenge. But I'm also slightly overwhelmed. And at the moment I'm not sure how I'm even going to process all of the responses in a timely manner, let alone craft all of my thoughts currently swirling in my head.

I couldn't be more grateful for that if I tried. I have felt, in the past year or so, the engagement of DBD has shifted from this thread into the comments sections of the videos. And while I love all of that, I just don't feel it's as conducive to a serious discussion, and I missed having that here. So I love that this video has encouraged debate of all kinds on this very interesting subject. I love that there is so much passion here. And I love that there are people who can push back just as hard and just as articulately and just as knowledgeably, if not more so, as I laid out my own arguments.

So I'm going to have to find a way and a time to deal with all of this. I really want to. And I intend to. But not at this moment. ^_^

[Dr. Casey]

Concerning Goku's lack of excitement for Raditz, the way I interpreted that was that Goku actually isn't that excited when it comes to matches that are completely hopeless, where he can't even begin to put up any kind of fight or resistance. This is consistent with the way that he behaved during his first fight with Tao Pai Pai. He never came across as 'excited' during that match, but moreso like a feral wild animal that was being hunted. Basically, Goku enjoys a nice challenge that pushes him to his limits; that doesn't necessarily mean that he enjoys being a defenseless lamb for slaughter.

(again, pre-revival; Super is a WHOLE different can of worms in itself, and at a minimum I very much agree that it contains some really badly conceived moments that pushes many aspects of Goku's character much TOO far into un-nuanced caricature

If you aren't essay'd out for the day, I'd be interested in your thoughts on Super's Goku (in particular, the specific moments you're talking about). I haven't actually watched Super minus the first two episodes, but yeah.

Also, happy birthday, Gaffer. :)

[Kunzait_83]

Between this and the fansubbing thread... I'd say I'm completely spent at this stage.

Contrary to how I'm sure it may appear to most folks, the vast overwhelming majority of my posts don't really take all that much time and effort out of me. Two of the very few ones that ever have though were the Wuxia thread and... my two part response in here, which is the one and only other post I've ever made in here - among the longer ones that is - that's taken me longer than a half hour to an hour or so to hammer out (the Wuxia thread was a whopping several weeks long undertaking, that largely consisted of collecting together and organizing all the various disparate components of info and media I needed, whereas this response in here took a little over a day or so, spread out over a bunch of sittings).

Oh, and likewise, a very happy birthday to Gaffer.

[Cipher]

I have to take a moment to share with you how I came into this thread today, just for a little bit of context. I came to Kanzenshuu when I woke up this morning and saw that I had a notification.

Let me tell you how I came into this thread today: I saw that both myself and Kunzait had posted again before Gaffer Tape'd had a chance to respond, and I was like, "Shit, man, I feel bad."

I also saw some typos and weird redundancies in my post, now and forever preserved like bugs in amber.

(Re: two posts up: Yeah, being excited by plausible challenges but not completely hopeless ones is also something that comes up in the Boo arc.)

((Also, happy birthday, Gaffer Tape.))

[RandomGuy96]

Is Goku a Hero? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 3!

I'm probably going more against the grain of the typical Kanzenshuu user's opinion than I ever have before, but here we are. Trunks warns Goku and the others that the world will become Skynet. They decide... to basically let it happen and see what shakes loose. Does this make sense? What are the reasons fans and Toriyama defend this? Here we go!!!

Quick thought on the Raditz fight. Even as a kid, I have to agree that I always thought his behavior during that battle was very much at odds with his behavior in the rest of the Z portion. As you say, he's very no-nonsense and mission-oriented, does whatever he has to in order to end the threat (including fighting two-on-one, attacking from behind, going for a weak spot, and holding his enemy in place so his partner can impale them both), and is clearly motivated by just saving his son and the Earth. The closest thing to a justification I can think of is that Raditz already beat him in one hit a few hours before this- so Goku knew there wouldn't be a fun fight, just death. We see that later on in the Buu arc, where Goku is definitely not excited at the idea of fighting Super Buu alone (even after undoing his absorptions) and begs Vegeta to fuse with him. In hindsight his sparing of Vegeta doesn't make much sense either; he had no issue using dirty tricks to beat him, like calling his son for help- because he knew Vegeta was too strong for him- but suddenly at the end he wants another honorable duel.

Also, good point on the gang trying to stop Cell's resurrection later on, not to mention trying to stop his absorptions and the activation of the other androids. That would maybe make sense if Androids 19 and 20 were beyond their expectations and made them realize how in over their heads they were by letting the androids be created. But those two were relative weaklings; they were likely weaker than Freeza and were easily crushed by Vegeta and Piccolo (even the worst-case scenario of Goku collapsing and ceding his power to the enemy didn't cause them too much trouble). So there's not any real reason for the sudden shift in priorities; the closest thing to a plausible explanation would be that they were trying to placate Vegeta, the only one who consistently wanted a better fight... but that doesn't make sense either because Vegeta was a shrimp at this point in the series (in the 3 year gap), Goku would smack him down with ease if he tried to kill anyone.

[Regarder]

There's a really good moment later on where this "dark selfish Goku" is highlighted, and I think it's anime only, ironically enough. When Gohan is being beaten up by Cell, Piccolo confronts Goku about him, and tells him that Gohan isn't like him and that right now he's just a scared little boy. Goku suddenly looks really shocked and scared.

[Lord Beerus]

There's a really good moment later on where this "dark selfish Goku" is highlighted, and I think it's anime only, ironically enough. When Gohan is being beaten up by Cell, Piccolo confronts Goku about him, and tells him that Gohan isn't like him and that right now he's just a scared little boy. Goku suddenly looks really shocked and scared.

That moment is in the manga, too. The anime just added a bit more emphasis on it.

[Kid Buu]

"What about the rest, they're all martial artists too not superheros."

Actually, one of them literally is a superhero.

Also I always just assumed he let Piccolo get a free hit since it was a tournament match unlike the Raditz fight, and the stakes weren't as high.

Anyway, I agree that it does seem to callous. There's kind of an antagonist version of this when Krillin asks 17 and 18 why they went to kill Goku, and they're like, "because plot."

[Kunzait_83]

"What about the rest, they're all martial artists too not superheros."

Actually, one of them literally is a superhero.

If you're talking about Gohan (and I don't know who else you would be, he's the only character in the original series that ever becomes a literal superhero, however briefly), that wasn't until the early portion of the Boo arc. Cell arc as a little kid, not so much.

Also I always just assumed he let Piccolo get a free hit since it was a tournament match unlike the Raditz fight, and the stakes weren't as high.

The stakes were still essentially "the fate of all humanity" since Piccolo at that point was still (as far as the rest of the cast knew at that point) picking up where Daimao left off. What the stakes were wasn't less high (they were still plenty high with Piccolo, again at least at that point in time), but rather less personal, since Raditz directly threatens and kidnaps Goku's son. Hits a lot closer directly to home than just threatening the whole world.

Anyways, Goku lets him get the free hit in cause yes, its a tournament, and Goku's more worried about the competition than he is the more (in his eyes) abstract stakes of what Piccolo might do next if he (Goku) loses the fight and is killed.

[matt0044]

With how you go onto major tangents seperate from the main plotlines, I'm genuinely hoping you got yourself a diatribe regarding Goku vs Piccolo in fatherhood and the perceptions the fandom has of Gohan's upbringing. Like I know you're eager to let it out.

[Kid Buu]

If you're talking about Gohan (and I don't know who else you would be, he's the only character in the original series that ever becomes a literal superhero, however briefly), that wasn't until the early portion of the Boo arc. Cell arc as a little kid, not so much.

It was literally a joke. I'm well aware that the Buu arc happens after the Cell arc, and doesn't have to do what the context of what Gaffer is talking about in the video.

The stakes were still essentially "the fate of all humanity" since Piccolo at that point was still (as far as the rest of the cast knew at that point) picking up where Daimao left off. What the stakes were wasn't less high (they were still plenty high with Piccolo, again at least at that point in time), but rather less personal, since Raditz directly threatens and kidnaps Goku's son. Hits a lot closer directly to home than just threatening the whole world.

Anyways, Goku lets him get the free hit in cause yes, its a tournament, and Goku's more worried about the competition than he is the more (in his eyes) abstract stakes of what Piccolo might do next if he (Goku) loses the fight and is killed.

I meant it in the sense that with Piccolo, he's facing an opponent he actually is capable of beating fair and square. That wasn't the case with Raditz.