MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/1/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:22 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:The only reason I can't really ignore the Super manga is that some of the pages are literally drawn by Toriyama (plus the story is written by him and all the characters are designed by him, and the ratio of Toriyama-to-Not is by definition far higher than the anime). It's a weird situation. I can't really justify a way to ignore it that can't also be used as a justification to ignore, say, the Kanzenban ending. Or even the Cell arc. Unless you want to get ultra-technical and only say that everything written and 100% drawn by Toriyama counts, but in that case... do the pages he drew and wrote count but the ones surrounding them not? Just seems arbitrary.

I actually like that there are three mutually irreconcilable but equally Toriyama-approved versions of how Goku met Beerus. I thought it would make people stop harping on so much about "canon."
You underestimate how much nerds can whinge about continuity and canon. The mediocre Marvel movie machine got so much buzz because it brought over that crap to film form.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/1/18!)

Post by DNA » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:33 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:You underestimate how much nerds can whinge about continuity and canon. The mediocre Marvel movie machine got so much buzz because it brought over that crap to film form.
You're here, aren't you? That means you're one of us "nerds". I also happen to really like that "mediocre Marvel movie crap".

That being said, I've come to terms with the continuity and accept it as "something like this has happened", the different media are just different tellings of the same story. Like for example what I like to call Dragon Ball Xeno, basically some order of events happened between what we see on Dragon Ball Online, Heroes and Xenoverse, along with their respective manga or anime adaptations. There's a really awesome story there, no media is telling it decently.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/1/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:35 pm

DNA wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:You underestimate how much nerds can whinge about continuity and canon. The mediocre Marvel movie machine got so much buzz because it brought over that crap to film form.
You're here, aren't you? That means you're one of us "nerds". I also happen to really like that "mediocre Marvel movie crap".

That being said, I've come to terms with the continuity and accept it as "something like this has happened", the different media are just different tellings of the same story. Like for example what I like to call Dragon Ball Xeno, basically some order of events happened between what we see on Dragon Ball Online, Heroes and Xenoverse, along with their respective manga or anime adaptations. There's a really awesome story there, no media is telling it decently.
Hey, us nerds can call each other out for nerdiness, especially when its annoying and Dragon Balls fandom definitely is whenever continuity/canon are brought up. The kind of annoying that makes me yearn for a power drill being turned on right next to my ear instead. Continuity is essentially an easy way to win the nerds over or piss them off.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/1/18!)

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:45 pm

Speaking of canon, I remember the pre-BoG days when the general consensus was that the manga was the only true “canon” for Dragon Ball, with the anime existing in its own little bubble. Needless to say, what’s canon and what isn’t has become significantly messier these days. Still, I think it might be inaccurate to argue that Super wasn’t made with the intention of following the manga. Apart from some rare things such as the anime referencing Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma, or the manga recently referencing Mount Paozu, neither medium of Super can really fit into the anime continuity either. Hell, they can’t even really fit into the Kai continuity, given that as far as Kai is concerned, the Bardock special is canon, as is the version of Hell that Toei gave us.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/1/18!)

Post by Scsigs » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:09 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:The only reason I can't really ignore the Super manga in relation to the original manga is that some of the pages are literally drawn by Toriyama (plus the story is written by him, every chapter is checked by him, most-to-all of the characters are designed by him, and the ratio of Toriyama-to-Not is by definition far higher than the anime).
It's a weird situation. I can't really justify a way to ignore it that can't also be used as a justification to ignore, say, the Kanzenban ending. Or even the Cell arc. Unless you want to get ultra-technical and say that only things 100% written and 100% drawn by Toriyama count, but in that case... do the pages he drew and wrote count while the ones surrounding them do not?

I actually like that there are three mutually irreconcilable but equally Toriyama-approved versions of how Goku met Beerus. I thought it would make people stop harping on so much about "canon."
I'm sorry, but giving that diagram a once-over, these details are incorrect, or at least don't point to what you're talking about. Toriyama's involvement in Super is relegated to writing the plot outlines, designing characters, & other things. Looking over that diagram, it seems Toriyama only spot-checks the manga every once in a while when Toyotaro probably asks him to. He doesn't rewrite or redo anything Toyotaro hasn't already put into the panels. Adding in some dialogue doesn't create any significant story changes & redrawing art doesn't do much but just clean up some of the artwork. As far as I know, Toriyama has had similar influence on the anime when Jiren's personality was going to be different than it ended up being in the anime, which they then gave to Toppo. This is why Xenoverse 2 has him have Toppo's personality, since they made the DLC he showed up in at roughly the same time as the anime & manga's versions.
Then you have to take into account that Toyotaro designed a lot of the extra characters in the Universe Survival Arc that then got put into the anime, as well as suggesting Vegito get put in the story. Is Toyotaro now word of god with Toriyama? I doubt it, considering the Super Manga is literally just a promo manga meant to promote the anime, but Toyotaro spun it off into its own thing as he went.
Then there's also the fact that Toyotaro doesn't write or draw the manga as Toriyama would, with how many reused poses, number of panels, amounts of dialogue, & other things he puts into it that clearly have no influence from Toriyama (see TotallyNotMark's analysis of the manga he posted on YouTube to see what I mean). Toei's writing staff doesn't know how to write certain aspects of the series, like Goku's personality, & their writers need a more focused showrunner, as well as to actually needing to keep within establish anime color continuity (Future Trunks should NOT have blue hair & I'll say that till my final breath. I understand why it's there, but it's inconsistent with both the manga & prior anime adaptations), but at least they know how to write the story within their medium & realize where their strengths lie. Granted, sometimes it blows up in their face, like the pacing problems of the Battle of Gods Arc & the last half of the Future Trunks Arc, & the animation problems brought on by the production schedule, but that was the result of inconsistent writing, since they at least started out well.

As for how to take Super's anime adaptation, I see it as this. It's meant to be in continuity with the manga, but takes influences from the prior anime adaptations. The History of Trunks special's version of events were used in the Future Trunks Arc rather than the manga's, since it was better written, Yamcha's a baseball player (which Toriyama himself said years ago that he thought was an inspired choice to have him do), & the colors are more like prior adaptations (like Bulma's hair). It's meant to be the next step forward with the manga's version of events. I personally prefer the Battle of Gods movie to the show's Arc, since it was specifically written to be in a film's runtime, but then I like the show's version of the Resurrection F storyline (which I always thought should've been in show format from the beginning).
The Super manga is in the same way, but it's a promo for the anime. Many anime shows & movies get manga adaptations in Japan. I mean, Boruto also has both going at the same time. I mean, Res F had an incomplete manga adaptation by Toyotaro as well, which was only given to people who bought a ticket to see the movie in Japanese cinemas, hence why he skipped over it for the Super manga. And then there's the Super Dragon Ball Heroes manga, which is clearly made as a promo for the anime shorts, which are meant as extended commercials for the Heroes game. Clearly, neither of those are canon, sue to just promoting them game.
Then we have GT, which was more a sequel to the Z anime, but could be taken as a sequel to the manga, similar to Super.
Then we have Xenoverse 1 & 2 adapting elements from Dragon Ball Online, which Toriyama assisted with the storyline for. Is Xenoverse 2 canon to the manga as a result? Is Online? No? Yes? Clearly, this is a bigger matter. I personally see this in several continuities.
1. The original DB manga.
2. The DB, Z, & GT animes, including the 2 specials.
3. The various movies from DB & Z prior to Battle of Gods.
4. DB Kai.
5. Super.
6. Spin-offs.

This is clearly the most logical way to look at these things without making your head explode.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 am

The Anatomy of Cell - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 9!

Last time we covered the mystery angle of Cell. Now we examine all the other aspects in which he is incorporated into the story. Does this late arrival slot into the narrative seamlessly, or does Toriyama's "even softer reboot" begin to give the audience the runaround?

I've been on vacation, so that's why it's been four weeks since I put out any content. But this will be the final regular Dragon Ball Dissection episode of the year. It's time to prep for Dragon Ball Dissection December, the schedule of which I cover at the end of this video!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:55 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Cell state reversing his development then growing back into Imperfect cost him energy? That might be the reason why he's weaker than 17 and 18 over a design flaw but I'm not 100% sure on that.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:14 am

Personally, I really do like 19 and 20. They're like B-horror movie villains. Hate 17 and 18 though; I find them extremely bland. Even the Saibaman are more interesting to me.

Toriyama's former editor was also the reason why Semi-Imperfect Cell didn't stick around too long, right?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:44 am

Love the Batman videos. Speaking of these old 40's serials, didn't Superman have some as well?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:44 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Love the Batman videos. Speaking of these old 40's serials, didn't Superman have some as well?
Thank you! Yes. Superman did. Unfortunately, I have not seen them.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 10/29/18!)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:42 am

Hey Gaffer, I forgot to bring this up earlier and you may have already seen it, but about that whole "the Super manga isn't in-continuity/is in continuity with the anime" thing...
https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1057 ... 24?lang=bg
Image
That's... really about as straightforward as this franchise has ever gotten in regards to continuity or (may Kaio forgive me for uttering this word) canon. I was kind of shocked when I saw it (actually first learned about it from the podcast episode) because the IP holders have otherwise shown no regard for idea of an official canon (which I liked).

There's also this from Shueisha, an online poll of Goku's best battle. Featuring fights and images from the start of the DB manga up to the current end of the Super manga. Anime-only battles like Goku vs Mutaito and Goku vs Kefla ain't in there...
http://vjump.shueisha.co.jp/comic/dbs03/
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:40 am

The Retcon of Spirit and Time - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 10!

Dragon Ball Dissection December has begun. Goku gets well, so he can immediately take himself out of the action, waiting his turn for a magical training room. In fact, it's so magical, it retroactively makes the beginning of the arc seem even weirder than it did before.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by coola » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:11 pm

I havent noticed lack of nights in manga version of Buu/Cell saga until now :) Seems like lack of anthropomorphic animals wasnt only thing missing in these sagas. It actually make me appreciate some parts of filler in DBZ anime a little more :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:41 pm

Jeez I never thought of how Goku could entirely trivialize the Cell chase. I guess it not being treated as a big story event, as they skip over the juicy details of the chase, it never crossed my mind. I love seeing these new kinds of insights on things either good or incredibly dumb XD.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by Gray Riders » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:04 pm

Yeah, the ROSAT was an interesting concept that also raised so many questions. I assume it's same principle where players put off using rare consumable items in RPGs (or for a literary example, in Prince Caspian when they debate a similar issue before deciding to use the special item)--Goku can only use that thing a little so he's pushing it off as long as possible because what if he beats Gero's creations with it and then needs it for the next villain?

If it wasn't for Piccolo having the same exponential increase, I'd argue that maybe the earthlings used it a bit while training for the Saiyans to explain how the saw such massive growths compared to Goku spending longer with Kami.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by Attitudefan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:10 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:The Retcon of Spirit and Time - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 10!

Dragon Ball Dissection December has begun. Goku gets well, so he can immediately take himself out of the action, waiting his turn for a magical training room. In fact, it's so magical, it retroactively makes the beginning of the arc seem even weirder than it did before.
Earth is depicted in the manga as our Earth. So is that proper canon Gaffer Tape???
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/4/18!)

Post by Regarder » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:42 pm

Gray Riders wrote:Goku can only use that thing a little so he's pushing it off as long as possible because what if he beats Gero's creations with it and then needs it for the next villain?
Goku maybe doesn't usually follow that kind of mindset, but right around this time he starts thinking about the fact that villains keep coming to Earth, and his role in it, which leads up to his sacrifice, so it wouldn't be totally out of character for this to be the reason he put it off initially.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:15 am

Endless Island Adventure - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 11!

Piccolo beats up #17, Cell beats up Piccolo, #16 beats up Cell, Cell beats up #16, Vegeta beats up Cell. It's Endless Island Adventure here at Dragon Ball Dissection, where tennis is the name of the game, and it goes on forever!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by coola » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:10 pm

Sad thing is, from what i heard, Piccolo is supposed to be Toriyama's favorite character, yet he is always screwed over, than again, i feel more sorry for God and Nail (Well, less for God, since he was jerk for letting Demon King Piccolo rampage), they lost their freedom and are forever part of Piccolo, even in afterlife, and it was completely meaningless.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 12/11/18!)

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:03 pm

coola wrote:Sad thing is, from what i heard, Piccolo is supposed to be Toriyama's favorite character, yet he is always screwed over, than again, i feel more sorry for God and Nail (Well, less for God, since he was jerk for letting Demon King Piccolo rampage), they lost their freedom and are forever part of Piccolo, even in afterlife, and it was completely meaningless.
Yeah I never got that. Good that he didn't make Piccolo an author's pet, but the few bones he throws to him is weird. And it even lasts to this day in Super. Why is the obsession for Saiyans so intense that even the creator's favorite character gets shafted frequently? Even by the creator?

On to the video, Gaffer, I wish you talked a little bit about how weird Tenshinhan's Kikoho a bit more. If it could stop Cell in its tracks, which is still weaker than Super Vegeta and Super Trunks, but is quite the leap for someone who can't beat a basic Super Saiyan in a straight fight, then surely the attack could have severely wounded if not killed any of the Androids.

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