MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 8/7/17!)

Postby JacobYBM » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:26 pm

Hmm...let's break down the production schedules surrounding Super Saiyan Son Gokuu!

10 November 1990: Dragon Ball Chapter #300.
23 January 1991: Dragon Ball Z Episode #75 (Storyboard & Director: Hashimoto Mitsuo) (Chapters #291-292)
05 March 1991: Dragon Ball Chapter #315.
06 March 1991: Dragon Ball Z Episode #81 (adapting part of Chapter #300).
09 March 1991: Dragon Ball Z Movie #4 (52 minutes; Director: Hashimoto Mitsuo; Chief Animation Supervisor: Maeda Minoru; Animation Supervisor: Nakatsuru Katsuyoshii & Satou Masaki).
22 May 1991: Dragon Ball Z Episode #92 (Storyboard & Director: Hashimoto Mitsuo) (Chapter #314)

The average chapter is finished about two weeks before it is published. This would mean Toriyama drew Chapter #315 in early February. Dragon Ball Z #81 covers Chapter #300 (finished maybe around 25 October), so at this point the production staff are writing, storyboarding, and animating entire episodes in less than fifteen weeks (three months).

Movie #4 is essentially the same length of two average television series episodes. The average episode usually takes one person two weeks to write. Koyama Takao wrote the scenario by himself, so let's assume he wrote it in one month. The average storyboard usually takes two-to-three weeks to draw, but Hashimoto Mitsuo seems to have drawn the board all by himself going by the lack of a proper credit for it. Let's say Hashimoto only spent one month working on his storyboard.

The animation production for a single episode is usually granted a month and a half. The average episode uses 300 cuts, so a movie that lasts for the length of two episodes likely used 600 cuts. The average key animator can pull off two cuts a day. Twenty-three key animators work on this film. Fast animators like Ebisawa Yukio (credited first) and Aoshima Katsumi (credited last) worked on the film. Ebisawa probably helped do a lot of the dialogue scenes, which amount for most of the film. Keeping this in mind, the key animators were each assigned probably a little less than thirty cuts each. Combining these facts, pulling off a film with the mostly lackluster animation we see in Movie #4 makes the scheduling feel very doable. Bare in mind, most of the animators working on Movie #4 were also busy working on the television series at the time. In fact, I'm thinking this is why Base Gokuu versus Freeza suffered so much from bad animation: everyone was busy working on this film at the same time. Just look at Episode #87. Seigasha's work there is definitely below their usual level during this era. In fact, the storyboard artist and episode director are both new to the series--in fact, it was their only credit for the franchise, so the episode must've been in chaos.

Anyway, my guess is that this movie began production in early January 1991 or late December 1990. Late December would put it just after Gokuu had existed the healing pod in Chapter #306.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Gaffer Tape » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:17 am

Five Wishes, Two Minutes - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Freeza Arc Part 12!

Goku transforms, Freeza tries to blow up the planet, and we explore whether or not five minutes is even that big of a deal.

Above: Thanks, Jacob. I really enjoyed perusing that production timeline!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby JacobYBM » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:36 am

Ah, shit, I forgot to point you in the direction of Beautiful Fighting Girl by psychiatrist Saitou Tamaki. There's a section of the book that discusses how Japanese stories make use of a phenomenon known as manpu, taken from koudan storytelling. In koudan, "time and space are grossly exaggerated according to the passion and expressivity of the characters."

"The koudan 'Kan'ei Sanbajutsu' (Horse-rising in the Kan'ei era), for example, is a long and extremely detailed description of how Magaki Heikurou climbs up a stone staircase on a horse. This kind of unlimited extension of a single privileged moment is typical of the atemporality of koudan storytelling..."


This sort of thing was typically done in gekiga comics, but then Nakajima Norihiro's Astro Kyuudan came around and decided to whip out its fifteen inch cock. アストロ球団 (Astro Kyuudan) is a 183 chapter comic that literally covers only one baseball game. Twenty collected volumes...two thousand pages-plus...only one baseball game. That's way bigger than anything Dragon Ball tries. And according to Saitou's book, with exception for a few raised eyebrows, Shounen JUMP readers had no problem with it. The comic lasted from 22 August 1972 to 01 June 1976. The closest I can think of is Bleach Chapters #237-422 covering a single day.

Ishinomori Shoutarou was a big fan of western films, so his comics would follow suit and match the 'consistent' speed of western films as part of its flow. Nagai Gou, however, was different. Nagai was different, he set what is now the standard of Japanese comics by having time no longer flow. Nagai had time contract and expand with the reader's subjective view point. Action scenes are draw with large panels and run for many pages. This is why Nagai's work seemed to be adapted more so into animation, rather than Ishinomori, who saw most of his works adapted into live action: Nagai's works have a sort of 'atemporality' to them.

I suggest picking up Beautiful Fighting Girl, not only for the information about koudan, but also how it delves into other aspects of Japanese comics, animation, characters, queer theory and Otaku sexuality.

EDIT: In this Twitter thread I tried taking photos of the pages I was referencing here. I couldn't type all of the information, so if you can somehow read these shoddy pictures you'll see what I was getting at with more information. I also suggest looking into kairological time.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Neo-Makaiōshin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:39 am

I'm a bit surprised you didn't call out Krillin's death triggering a "drastic" change in Goku as a rehash of Piccolo Arc.

Also isn't it kinda problematic that Krillin's death didn't turned Goku into a Super Saiyan back in Piccolo Arc?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby coola » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:49 am

Is it possible, that "Freeza is still alive" fiasco happened in manga release, while when it was originally printed in Shounen Jump, Freeza was in another page?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:33 am

"Five minutes" in the manga doesn't make sense for another reason. It makes perfect sense that the actions depicted, at normal speed, can fit into five minutes. The problem is that the series emphasizes that these characters move at massively superhuman speeds, with the most notable example being Krillin and Roshi at the 21st Budokai having a whole fight in 0.1 seconds, and the most recent example as of that arc being Saiyan arc Goku flying a million kilometers in two days at the equivalent of a jogging pace. In that respect, five minutes is entirely too long since the fight itself should be very short, though Toriyama has never been consistent about his numbers, so whatever.

On Freeza supposedly using more effort in his held-back blast that destroyed Namek, I feel like I should point out the difference between a quick basketball-sized blast thrown immediately and a giant energy sphere with millions of times the surface area of the blast being charged and discharged over the course of minutes. That's just basic physics. Since we know "battle power" is a measure of intensity,* it logically follows that the actual energy being expended increases exponentially the longer an attack is charged and the larger the contact area is. It probably took Freeza about as much effort to reach the power output of that quick blast as it did with any of his regular punches, and the blast almost certainly was much more powerful and intense than the 'effortless' sphere he used to destroy Namek... but at the same time, the sphere he generated in his first form at a lower power output could still have had tens of thousands of times more energy.

*Power = energy/time, intensity = power per unit area. Hence why Piccolo concentrating a blast into his fingertip increases the battle power, why two close-by battle powers will often be confused for one, why giant energy attacks with many times the contact area of a fist are effective despite the battle powers of those blasts not being drastically higher than a character's regular battle power, and why Oozarus are proportionally more powerful than saiyans at all with ten times the battle power and thousands of times the surface area.
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dbgtFO wrote:Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"

He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby OhHiRenan » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:24 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:I'm a bit surprised you didn't call out Krillin's death triggering a "drastic" change in Goku as a rehash of Piccolo Arc.

Also isn't it kinda problematic that Krillin's death didn't turned Goku into a Super Saiyan back in Piccolo Arc?

The context is totally different for both occurrences, as is Goku's character. His trigger isn't just Kuririn dying, it's Kuririn dying and never being able to come back.

I wouldn't call it a rehash at all.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Doctor. » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:54 am

Shit, I never noticed that Goku's speech bubbles changed when he turns Super Saiyan and I must have read the Freeza arc a billion times. That is fucking clever from Toriyama and very observant of you.

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Also isn't it kinda problematic that Krillin's death didn't turned Goku into a Super Saiyan back in Piccolo Arc?


No, because a high enough power level is a prerequisite to turning Super Saiyan.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Regarder » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:43 pm

I think people assume real life physics and logic when talking about blowing up planets in DB when they should actually be applying Toriyama physics and Toriyama logic. Planets don't have gravitational binding energy; they explode on their own if their core is damaged enough, so aiming well as well as having huge power is actually a factor in blowing up planets in Toriyama world.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Metalwario64 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:01 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:I'm a bit surprised you didn't call out Krillin's death triggering a "drastic" change in Goku as a rehash of Piccolo Arc.

Also isn't it kinda problematic that Krillin's death didn't turned Goku into a Super Saiyan back in Piccolo Arc?

The context is totally different for both occurrences, as is Goku's character. His trigger isn't just Kuririn dying, it's Kuririn dying and never being able to come back.

I wouldn't call it a rehash at all.

Also, the situation during the Freeza arc was more grim and stressful (Goku'd already struggled to fight Freeza, and used his best move to no avail), but he helplessly witnessed it firsthand instead of finding him dead, which is even more shocking and traumatic.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby Gaffer Tape » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:28 am

The Big, Dumb Ending - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Freeza Arc Part 13!

The Freeza Arc finally comes to a close... and I'm probably going to get a lot of hate mail over this one because I honestly think it is the worst ending in the series. But we also look back at the arc as a whole and finally give it its score. Let me know what you think!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby coola » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:46 am

Sadly, when you think about it, after Freeza arc, every arc finale have dumb moments:
- Cell suddenly having nucleus inside his head, that allow him to regenerate (Despite having his entire upper body blown away by Goku Kame Hame Ha earlier, and there was no nucleus there)
- Kid Buu came out of nowhere, instead of having Super Buu becoming Thin Buu again

Rumor of Freeza arc being "supposed ending" probably came from how "finale" this arc seemed like, almost every one story arc was completed, Goku become legendary SSJ, and wipe out stronest evil being in entire Universe.

While anime part does drag a lot, at least it had much better finale, and it gave us another villain before Freeza returned :)
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby simtek34 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:04 pm

So, are you going straight to Trunks, or is DBDTV coming back?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby dbzfan7 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:43 pm

I think the whole point with Freeza was that his biology allows him to survive, but considering he was out of ki, he would not be able to get off the planet in time. Which I think was the bigger picture. Though why he was out of ki when he didn't appear so beforehand is puzzling. I don't think he was healed at all, just merely given ki to use to float himself away. I also honestly love the ending as a great way to show off Freeza's character. He is so damn stubborn he keeps on basically defeating himself. If he just showed some restraint he'd have a much easier time. But he's so infuriated of defeat at the hands of the worthless trash he despised, that he'd rather die knowing he won, then get help and simply leave. Not even a retreat loss is worth it to him. He could just retreat and come back, but nope he HAS to win because he's that much of a brat. But with everything past that I have to agree.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/4/17!)

Postby Dbzfan94 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:42 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:The context is totally different for both occurrences, as is Goku's character. His trigger isn't just Kuririn dying, it's Kuririn dying and never being able to come back. I wouldn't call it a rehash at all.


I think it's that, plus the fact Freeza blasted Piccolo and was about to do the same to Gohan. All those factors together, to me, was the trigger for Super Saiyan.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby Kid Buu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:28 pm

I never really liked how SSj Goku is initially presented as some sort of Warrior of Rage, but by the end of the fight is some sort of Jesus-type figure healing his enemy.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby Gray Riders » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:54 pm

Great video. I have really mixed thoughts on the whole Namek arc. It had some great scenes and ideas, but also some pretty big problems and introduced a lot of recurring elements to the series I dislike. So ultimately, I agree with your ranking for it.

Re-reading the manga this year, I noticed a number of the oddities you pointed out in this video, like Goku's intentions with Freeza jumping around and the incredibly rushed way it went from Freeza's defeat to his return, or Yamcha suddenly getting a little focus when Namek explodes.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby WittyUsername » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:25 pm

I definitely wasn't expecting the Freeza arc to get a 5 ranking here.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby OhHiRenan » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:28 pm

Kid Buu wrote:I never really liked how SSj Goku is initially presented as some sort of Warrior of Rage, but by the end of the fight is some sort of Jesus-type figure healing his enemy.

It's weird, but I do like it. It's like Goku embracing his Saiyan side but still showing us that he's an Earthling at heart.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 9/18/17!)

Postby lancerman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:46 pm

Eh, I'm fine with a lot of the issues Mistare correctly pointed out. He's correct, but they don't bother me as much. Yes the Freeza arc started as a quest to resurrect their friends. It turned into a proxy war vs a space tyrant and he was the obstacle. Once the obstacle was out of the way, the rest was elementary. Also unlike Bora's death in the RR arc and much of the main cast in the Piccolo arc, we've already been down this road twice and this time like with Goku in the Saiyan arc, we constantly saw them in scenes. It takes out the triumphant moment we got with Bora where it seemed to good to be true.

That part didn't bother me. The blurb at the end with Freeza's return does though. That was way too fast. I almost don't even want to count it as part of the arc even though it's the same chapter.

As for the fight, same thing, once you hit a certain point and build up something as massive as the strongest fighter in the universe who can destroy planets vs the legendary super saiyan... you kind built it to go epic and they did. Yeah it was mostly cool moments of two powerhouses beating the hell out of each other and no selling most of it save the last few vicious attacks. Is it the best fight in the series.. no not by a longshot. It's a tail of two fights. The pre and post SSJ. The pre was the more tactical part where everything mattered. Then it built to the fan service at the end. Fine.


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