KOL explains why writing is atrocious

[Doctor.]

#17 catching Jiren off-guard when Hit failed to do the same is a good point. I forgot about that.

Everything else I agree with and made the same observations when the episodes came out.

No it's not. Jiren clearly was aware of Hit coming to attack him from behind, he just couldn't attack fast enough so hit got him first. With 17's case, it was a large blast from behind and Jiren had no idea he even was there.

The fact that he wasn't aware of 17, a random android, in an open field but could detect Hit, a skilled assassin with hundreds of years of experience, amidst the smoke is the problem.

[HeroR]

If anyone uses the word "apologist",then they don't deserve to be taken seriously."You defended a show that i dislike? Oh wow, what an apologist".Leave,don't waste time.

If you defend something that is clearly bad, well yeah what other word would you use? Super is a terriblly written mess.

Go back to the youtube comments,and you'll find people like yourself to circlejerk.This KOL guy is a jiren fanboy and he's angry because Goku punched Jiren once.He completely ignored the fact that UI Goku also got stronger compared to the first time they fought.
"Even now,as he fights,he continues to evolve.With every block,he hits Jiren more quickly,sharply and heavily"-Piccolo,Episode 110.

KOL:If you dont like power of friendship,then you shouldnt like Vegeta vs Toppo.
Lmao that guy reviews One piece,and there are many "power of friendship" boosts in OP.Luffy vs Rob Lucci climax fight has one too,and he considers that fight one of the best.

For the record, he mocks Fairy Tail for the 'power of friendship'. While Fairly Tail does indeed takes it a whole new level, One Piece can be almost as bad, but he tends to ignore that.

[VegettoEX]

Shuby: your posts (some of which are unnecessary double-posts) in this thread are a bit of an antagonistic broken record. Furthermore, as you are not actually contributing anything of value yourself here, a link to a random fan-created work such as this should be placed in the necessary sub-section of the forum. I am moving it there now.

youtubers....man I feel like I was born in the wrong decade.

I don't take anything youtubers say seriously...

Go back to the youtube comments,and you'll find people like yourself to circlejerk.This KOL guy is a jiren fanboy and he's angry because Goku punched Jiren once.He completely ignored the fact that UI Goku also got stronger compared to the first time they fought.
"Even now,as he fights,he continues to evolve.With every block,he hits Jiren more quickly,sharply and heavily"-Piccolo,Episode 110.

KOL:If you dont like power of friendship,then you shouldnt like Vegeta vs Toppo.
Lmao that guy reviews One piece,and there are many "power of friendship" boosts in OP.Luffy vs Rob Lucci climax fight has one too,and he considers that fight one of the best.

Right...Let's ignore his 35 minute detailed breakdown. Your post is clearly more convincing than that

In all honesty, dragonball super is a poorly written mess full of retcons and inconsistencies at a magnitude never before seen in dragonball history. Let's just hope the next series starts off on a better note

Additionally, these are all examples of unacceptable posts, and members would be wise to review the community guidelines that they agreed to (twice) prior to registration.

From these specific, cited posts and others made elsewhere, certain members are facing additional strikes and bans (which revokes access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website). Please reconsider what it is you are looking to get out of your time here.

[Hawk9211]

[

#17 catching Jiren off-guard when Hit failed to do the same is a good point. I forgot about that.

Everything else I agree with and made the same observations when the episodes came out.

That scene still grinds my gear.Vados says that even most skilled warriors are vulnerable when finishing their opponents,but Jiren doesn’t even have that weakness.Now,his opponent isn’t some random guy it is a thousand years old assassin that can stop time and do invisible attacks.Even if we assume that hit can’t hide his energy to be invisible,17 just walks up and blasts jiren.We are informed with shocking twist that Jiren was caught off guard.Even more annoying is freezes who just comes screaming like Tarzan and kicks Jiren.

It's also worth considering that Jiren may have been more on guard before, with so many potentially dangerous opponents still in the arena, but he relaxed his guard with only a few left, including ones like 17 who he didn't consider to be a real threat.

So,what was the narrative purpose of painting jiren as the guy who does not has the weakness of the most skilled warriors?Just a thow way line?What we know of jiren now,no one was a threat to him,so the being on and off guard doesn’t matter especially considering given his character he should have been as much as as oblivious to hit as 17.

[Kanious]

I don't agree. And that video was horrendous, i couldn't watch until the end, but anyways, everyone is entitled to their own OPINION.

To me, Dragon Ball NEVER was well written. It has its good written moments, but they are MOMENTS. DBS, especially ToP has had for the most part a good deal of good writing, IMO.

That KOL guy just seem like one of the Z's widows that don't enjoy Super and want to enforce their dislike onto others.

[Lord Beerus]

I found this quite an incredibly bad video that not only ignores a lot context for the scenarios he's ranting about, but flat out disregards some of the information that we already know about certain aspects of the story and characters that easily explain some of the issue he has with some of the episodes of the Tournament Of Power he's specifically referring to.

Not a fan of the guy.

#17 catching Jiren off-guard when Hit failed to do the same is a good point. I forgot about that.

Everything else I agree with and made the same observations when the episodes came out.

No it's not. Jiren clearly was aware of Hit coming to attack him from behind, he just couldn't attack fast enough so hit got him first. With 17's case, it was a large blast from behind and Jiren had no idea he even was there.

The fact that he wasn't aware of 17, a random android, in an open field but could detect Hit, a skilled assassin with hundreds of years of experience, amidst the smoke is the problem.

How could he be aware of #17 when he can't sense him. You can't detect an Android because their don't give off a Ki signature. So #17 really had every right to catch Jiren off-guard as Jiren had no idea where he was or when he would attack. Jiren could sense Hit because Hit give off a Ki signature.

[Doctor.]

How could he be aware of #17 when he can't sense him. You can't detect an Android because their don't give off a Ki signature. So #17 really had every right to catch Jiren off-guard as Jiren had no idea where he was or when he would attack. Jiren could sense Hit because Hit give off a Ki signature.

You can't sense Hit when he's in his dimension either. Or at least, it's extremely difficult.

Yes, Jiren doesn't have ears, my mistake, he couldn't hear #17 coming in an open field with nobody else making any noise You seem to be ignoring the point that Vados established that Jiren doesn't have the weakness of letting his guard down.

[Nero<>Akira]

I actually got done watching the video and most of it is just rambling nonsense and I used to watch King a lot. I don't really watch youtubers like that anymore.

1. This guy acknowledges that people would say Android 17 can't be sensed, but uses that line about Jiren not having the weakness of being caught off guard. we haven't seen him caught off guard at all except that one scene with 17. And we know why, because he can't be sensed. He gives off no life readings. It doesn't matter how strong or skilled Hit is.
2. Another point he makes makes completely no sense. He literally calls Jiren nothing but a strong guy AFTER he gets a backstory... what lol? That statement makes no sense. He also said he wasn't arrogant before the 120s even though we saw how some arrogance in both episodes 109 and 110. Not only that, he calls it bad or his character being contradicted cause he spoke more, for the previous reason before that, and because he was disappointed in Toppo. No. Sorry.. No.
3. Now I can see where he comes from where Toppo is constantly spamming close to the end of 126, but considering one gets better the more they do a particular action.. I don't have much of an issue with it. I will ackowledge it's at an accelerated rate, but look who we are dealing with. A man that literally just became a God.
4. Also, I understand when he says Vegeta got a feelings power up and that it's egregious because it was so one sided. But if you go back and watch the fight, it really wasn't. They were pretty much equal except for the Destruction and Toppo getting the drop on him when they were dead locked. KOL made it sound like Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him like no tomorrow which is so far from the truth. We hadn't even really seen Vegeta power up to his maximum in the state he was in. Yes, he got mad and got a power up, but it wasn't an extra power up the way he compared it with Fairy Tail. He just simply powered up more. It's ironic that he tries to do this when he adores One Piece and doesn't think that the Ussop speech in Enies Lobby that makes Luffy get back up and beat Lucci isn't a friendship power up. It's even more than this scenario with Vegeta. Let's continue.
5. He mentions 17 didn't power up when he blows up but we clearly see that he was. We just don't see an aura. We NEVER see an aura with the androids. Ever. The only time we see any energy with them is ki blasts and a barrier.
6. Vegeta not dying from his explosion. ~sigh~ Vegeta, when he tried to kill Boo, used his life energy. Vegeta, when he fights Toppo, doesn't. They are not the same and it helps that Vegeta cannot be compared to a much weaker level. He's so far above that it's not even funny.
7. Vegeta using UB in 127 after using up his ki in 126. Listen, many people keep trying to use this as a flaw or that it's stupid. But.... he isn't at full power. And if we simply speak on human terms, when you use up "all your energy", if you so much as take a break that isn't even a minute.. you can come back and do the same just not as often. Let's compare a relatively fit human to a demi god. Even if you say, "but that hasn't happened before!!!1" These guys get stronger and stronger with each passing arc.
8. KOL gets mad cause Vegeta cries and said he was buying Goku time. UGH.... Why... and No. There's nothing wrong with Vegeta crying. And he compares the situation as if its the same as the Boo arc. No, it is not. Vegeta doesn't fight to buy goku time to get energy. He keeps fighting cause he wants to save his family and keep his promise. Vegeta also never has willingly given Goku or his spirit bombs energy despite coming up with the plan in the boo arc. This is the first time Vegeta does this.
9. Gets mad that UIo Goku hurts Jiren. lol oh boy... UI Goku now is stronger than when he first fought Jiren. Good grief.

[Lord Beerus]

How could he be aware of #17 when he can't sense him. You can't detect an Android because their don't give off a Ki signature. So #17 really had every right to catch Jiren off-guard as Jiren had no idea where he was or when he would attack. Jiren could sense Hit because Hit give off a Ki signature.

You can't sense Hit when he's in his dimension either. Or at least, it's extremely difficult.

Yes, Jiren doesn't have ears, my mistake, he couldn't hear #17 coming in an open field with nobody else making any noise You seem to be ignoring the point that Vados established that Jiren doesn't have the weakness of letting his guard down.

Freeza and Majin Boo both had ears but it didn't lead prevent them from getting drop-kicked off-guard by characters much weaker then them. And the fact that a character that Jiren couldn't sense caught him off-guard shows that Vados was full of shit and didn't know what she was talking about. And it wouldn't the first time Dragon Ball characters made statements about special abilities of characters which would be later contradicted.

[Doctor.]

How could he be aware of #17 when he can't sense him. You can't detect an Android because their don't give off a Ki signature. So #17 really had every right to catch Jiren off-guard as Jiren had no idea where he was or when he would attack. Jiren could sense Hit because Hit give off a Ki signature.

You can't sense Hit when he's in his dimension either. Or at least, it's extremely difficult.

Yes, Jiren doesn't have ears, my mistake, he couldn't hear #17 coming in an open field with nobody else making any noise You seem to be ignoring the point that Vados established that Jiren doesn't have the weakness of letting his guard down.

Freeza and Majin Boo both had ears but it didn't lead prevent them from getting drop-kicked off-guard by characters much weaker then them. And the fact that a character that Jiren couldn't sense caught him off-guard shows that Vados was full of shit and didn't know what she was talking about. And it wouldn't the first time Dragon Ball characters made statements about special abilities of characters which would be later contradicted.

Are we really gonna compare Freeza and Boo to Jiren now?

Saying one of the angels, one portrayed as competent, doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about is a reach to excuse bad writing.

[Lord Beerus]

You can't sense Hit when he's in his dimension either. Or at least, it's extremely difficult.

Yes, Jiren doesn't have ears, my mistake, he couldn't hear #17 coming in an open field with nobody else making any noise You seem to be ignoring the point that Vados established that Jiren doesn't have the weakness of letting his guard down.

Freeza and Majin Boo both had ears but it didn't lead prevent them from getting drop-kicked off-guard by characters much weaker then them. And the fact that a character that Jiren couldn't sense caught him off-guard shows that Vados was full of shit and didn't know what she was talking about. And it wouldn't the first time Dragon Ball characters made statements about special abilities of characters which would be later contradicted.

Are we really gonna compare Freeza and Boo to Jiren now?

Saying one of the angels, one portrayed as competent, doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about is a reach to excuse bad writing.

Why not? In the scenario of Majin Boo and Freeza, their in those respective moments, they were strongest characters in the universe. The comparison is absolutely valid. Being insanely strong doesn't make you omnipotent.

And yes, even the highest of deities can get things wrong. That's a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

[Doctor.]

Freeza and Majin Boo both had ears but it didn't lead prevent them from getting drop-kicked off-guard by characters much weaker then them. And the fact that a character that Jiren couldn't sense caught him off-guard shows that Vados was full of shit and didn't know what she was talking about. And it wouldn't the first time Dragon Ball characters made statements about special abilities of characters which would be later contradicted.

Are we really gonna compare Freeza and Boo to Jiren now?

Saying one of the angels, one portrayed as competent, doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about is a reach to excuse bad writing.

Why not? In the scenario of Majin Boo and Freeza, their in those respective moments, they were strongest characters in the universe. The comparison is absolutely valid. Being insanely strong doesn't make you omnipotent.

And yes, even the highest of deities can get things wrong. That's a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

Freeza and Boo weren't stated episodes back that they had no weakness and couldn't be caught off-guard.

[Lord Beerus]

Are we really gonna compare Freeza and Boo to Jiren now?

Saying one of the angels, one portrayed as competent, doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about is a reach to excuse bad writing.

Why not? In the scenario of Majin Boo and Freeza, their in those respective moments, they were strongest characters in the universe. The comparison is absolutely valid. Being insanely strong doesn't make you omnipotent.

And yes, even the highest of deities can get things wrong. That's a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

Freeza and Boo weren't stated episodes back that they had no weakness and couldn't be caught off-guard.

They also stated repeatedly that Freeza was the strongest in the universe with no equal on Namek and that Majin Boo was an unkillable djinn.

[Kanassa]

Why not? In the scenario of Majin Boo and Freeza, their in those respective moments, they were strongest characters in the universe. The comparison is absolutely valid. Being insanely strong doesn't make you omnipotent.

And yes, even the highest of deities can get things wrong. That's a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

Freeza and Boo weren't stated episodes back that they had no weakness and couldn't be caught off-guard.

They also stated repeatedly that Freeza was the strongest in the universe with no equal on Namek and that Majin Boo was an unkillable djinn.

Alos stated by what were known as the highest godly beings at the time.

[Doctor.]

Why not? In the scenario of Majin Boo and Freeza, their in those respective moments, they were strongest characters in the universe. The comparison is absolutely valid. Being insanely strong doesn't make you omnipotent.

And yes, even the highest of deities can get things wrong. That's a recurring theme in Dragon Ball.

Freeza and Boo weren't stated episodes back that they had no weakness and couldn't be caught off-guard.

They also stated repeatedly that Freeza was the strongest in the universe with no equal on Namek and that Majin Boo was an unkillable djinn.

This has nothing to do with power. It's about personality. I don't understand how you're missing the point this hard.

Goku doesn't get caught off-guard because he's weak, he gets caught off-guard because he's a lax idiot. They specifically call to attention the fact that Jiren is on-guard at all times.

[Lord Beerus]

Freeza and Boo weren't stated episodes back that they had no weakness and couldn't be caught off-guard.

They also stated repeatedly that Freeza was the strongest in the universe with no equal on Namek and that Majin Boo was an unkillable djinn.

This has nothing to do with power. It's about personality. I don't understand how you're missing the point this hard.

Goku doesn't get caught off-guard because he's weak, he gets caught off-guard because he's a lax idiot. They specifically call to attention the fact that Jiren is on-guard at all times.

And Jiren got caught off-guard. Twice. Proving that, yes, you can catch Jiren off-guard. It's not impossible. That statement that Jiren is on-guard at all times was just hyperbole. Dragon Ball brings up specific abilities/traits of characters to hype them up, and then negate said specific ability/trait in battle to elevate the stakes and swerve the viewer. Character X will talk about how he/she has, or how Character Y has, Z trait/ability, only for Character A or Character B to disprove that in battle. Shit like that happens in Dragon Ball. All. The. Time. It's nothing new.

[Freeza9000]

youtubers....man I feel like I was born in the wrong decade.

I don't take anything youtubers say seriously...

Then you're alienating all of them? Honestly watch the video he brings up good points why Super is piss poorly written.

The only point I’ll give him is Vegeta still capable of tapping into Beyond SSJ Blue despite shown to be heavily exhausted from his bout with Toppo. The rest of the video is just riddled with incoherent nitpicks. As a matter of fact, it’s hard to take the guy seriously when you realize this is the same guy that was all open arms for the Oozaru to return.

[Jackalope89]

youtubers....man I feel like I was born in the wrong decade.

I don't take anything youtubers say seriously...

Then you're alienating all of them? Honestly watch the video he brings up good points why Super is piss poorly written.

The only point I’ll give him is Vegeta still capable of tapping into Beyond SSJ Blue despite shown to be heavily exhausted from his bout with Toppo. The rest of the video is just riddled with incoherent nitpicks. As a matter of fact, it’s hard to take the guy seriously when you realize this is the same guy that was all open arms for the Oozaru to return.

It was brief, and his last bit of stamina went into that. Not a second wind, just a person pushing themselves one last time before they don't even have the energy to defend themselves.

It happens quite a bit in real life martial arts/fighting matches.

[TheDragonBallGuy75]

Then you're alienating all of them? Honestly watch the video he brings up good points why Super is piss poorly written.

The only point I’ll give him is Vegeta still capable of tapping into Beyond SSJ Blue despite shown to be heavily exhausted from his bout with Toppo. The rest of the video is just riddled with incoherent nitpicks. As a matter of fact, it’s hard to take the guy seriously when you realize this is the same guy that was all open arms for the Oozaru to return.

It was brief, and his last bit of stamina went into that. Not a second wind, just a person pushing themselves one last time before they don't even have the energy to defend themselves.

It happens quite a bit in real life martial arts/fighting matches.

You have to admit, it sure is a stretch though. Vegeta must have detonated pretty much all his remaining energy in order to ring out Toppo. Given how his new form was just newly obtained it's bending the unspoken rules about how new transformations are supposed to be difficult to maintain and control, yet Vegeta jumps back into this form (straight after his fight with Toppo, no less) with little to no repercussions.

What makes it even more difficult to justify is that Goku has been shown concurrently on more than one occasion to struggle with achieving his pseudo-UI transformation. Yet Vegeta just jumps back into the Jiren fight with his sparkle power, like he has full control over the form?

[MajinMan]

I agree with the fact that episode 126 wasn’t good with Toppo being wasted and that Vegeta somehow regaining all his energy back immediately in 127 is BS. His other points are debatable, though. I skipped around the video because of all the excessive padding he put into it (35 minutes? What?), but the main one 3 I want to debate are 17, Jiren, and Vegeta crying.

1. 17 sneaking up on Jiren makes perfect sense to me. You cannot sense his energy, which allows him to sneak up on his opponents like he did with Jiren and Kaseral earlier in the tournament. This guy disregarded that fact by saying Jiren blocked Hit’s attack. Well, Jiren can sense Hit and not 17. Just because Hit is some super assassin doesn’t mean he’s unsensable. He still gives off ki when he attacks, which is something 17 does not do. This seems like a petty complaint that he made because 17 scratched his beloved Jiren. And yes, I know that Jiren doesn’t let his guard down, but again, if he can’t sense 17, how is he supposed to know where he is without actively looking for him? There’s a reason 17 was the one to sneak up on him and not Goku or Vegeta. You can make that argument for Freeza getting a “hit” on Jiren, sure, but not so much for 17.

2. The way he argued Jiren’s character is dumb. I can’t remember the exact details, but he said stuff about Jiren not being honorable anymore, and how him smiling is apparently a bad thing. So it was more acceptable to him when Jiren literally sat there with a blank look on his face all the time and acted badass and stoic, but him showing a bit of cockiness and smiling for a minute is a generic shonen stereotype that sucks? They’re both generic shonen stereotypes. You can’t not acknowledge one and then call out the other like it’s some sort of sin. They don’t really conflict with each other anyway. We’ve seen Jiren take over against people like Kale and Maji Kayo before. He also honored Vegeta’s pride in 128.

Jiren being all about absolute power also fits in with his character. That’s literally all he’s been described as: powerful. It’s his character’s theme. Him wanting power to accomplish his goals is not some random thing Toei made up on the spot, it fits in with his character just fine. You can’t tell me that Jiren wanting and believing this is BS when that’s all he’s been about. And then there’s the whole “Jiren talks too much” thing. Like, is Jiren just supposed to sit there and not talk? He barely even says anything anyway, compared to the likes of Vegeta at least. He didn’t even narrate his own backstory, which is another point I want to touch up on. Yes, Jiren’s backstory is very generic. It might have come way too late, but it does it’s job without causing much of a ruckus. I agree that it wasn’t the best thing ever, but I don’t think it ruined anything about Jiren, other than maybe his mystery factor (which a lot of people hated anyway).

3. And now onto Vegeta. I’ve talked shit about Vegeta in this arc for a while now, but his character in 128 made perfect sense. It was one of the few times I thought he was well written in this arc, even though he repeated a lot of the stuff he had already said in previous episodes (Cabba, family, Saiyan pride/race). Him crying when he lost was not out of character, but in fact representative of his character growth over the years. Vegeta has become more humanized, and since he just lost against Jiren, he came to the realization that his family could actually be erased, and that Cabba will never be resurrected. With the little hope he had left, he gave Goku his energy to carry on his beliefs for him. It made sense, it fit his character, and it gave us a genuine good Vegeta moment. By the way, I don’t think that this moment was too similar to the situation with Buu. He fought Buu to give Goku time, here he fought because he didn’t want everyone to die. He did end up helping Goku in the end, but it was in a different way. I can see the similarities and why people would call it a rip off, but I think there’s enough different to where it can stand on its own just fine.